Folklore: The music of Wales

Subject: RE: Folklore: The music of Wales
From: Peace
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 09:49 PM

Indeed it does. My only encounters with Welsh history, language or culture were in a university course to do with the Old English languagem and other than a request that we read "The Mabinogian" (more to ascertain the existence of a 'King Arthur' type figure in the literature, all else about Wales was incidental. Recently, I have had the pleasure of meeting a Welshman through Mudcat, and it struck me that I know very very little about the country, its history or people. Subsequently, I started this thread to try finding a place to start.

sian, west wales has been a Mudcat member likely for longer than I have. His posts (pardon me if you find this a bit embarrassing, sian) have always been erudite, to the point and helpful. I realize that a whole people cannot be extrapolated from an individual, but other Welsh people I have met have seemed to be equally 'nice'. So, my curiousity about Wales has been prodded. I don't have that long to live (in a relative sense--I'm 60 now) and I'd hate to shuffle off this mortal coil with that as an unanswered mystery. Thank all of you who have posted here because it certainly gives me places to start. And I shall.

Subject: RE: Folklore: The music of Wales
From: Buddug
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 05:38 PM

Hi Peace, just caught this thread. There is currently a study (it might have been published by now) into mitochondrial DNA (which passes untouched (apart from the odd accidental mutation) down the male line) across the UK. It's beginning to look as if the Welsh are descended from pre-Celts, i.e the stone age inhabitants of the British Isles, not just from the Celts as previously thought - who of course dwelt in these islands before the Romans, Saxons, Normans et al. Successive waves of invasion pushed them into the west of the country eventually - which explains the relationship between the Welsh, the Cornish (and the Bretons), whose languages are all Brythonic Celtic, and the Scots and the Irish (a lot of migration historically between these two lands), whose languages are Goedelic (Gaelic) Celtic.   Hope that helps.
!

Buddug

Subject: RE: Folklore: The music of Wales
From: bubblyrat
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 04:39 PM

Try " Hugh Green Was My Valet " !

Subject: RE: Folklore: The music of Wales
From: sian, west wales
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 04:39 PM

Books? Definitely A History of Wales by Dr John Davies. Brook no imitations. Well ... unless you want to unload £60 plus postage and wait a couple of months then you could get the new Encyclopaedia of Wales .

That's all for general background. Then different chunks of history are written up by various people. If there's one thing Wales has a lot of, it's authors. Hopefully in a year or two we'll also have a new history of Welsh traditional music (English lang. publication). I know the author is on the last chapter, and University of Wales Press is waiting to publish it.

Thanks, mg, for the link. Don't know what happened there. We must be related. My mother has Williamses from Cornwall in her family and she reckons they came originally from Wales. Quite likely as the quarrymen used to travel (by sea) between North Wales, West Wales, and Cornwall, depending on where the work was. Interestingly, there's a song or two that generally are found only in North Wales but also crop up in one village in Pembrokeshire (Mathry). There was a quarry there and the supposition is that the songs travelled with the quarrymen.

sian

Subject: RE: Folklore: The music of Wales
From: Peace
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 04:22 PM

Thanks for that info, mg.

Subject: RE: Folklore: The music of Wales
From: Peace
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 03:00 PM

Sian's trac link seems not to work. http://www.trac-cymru.org/

Subject: RE: Folklore: The music of Wales
From: Peace
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 02:57 PM

OK then. Thank you both. NOW, if I were to ask about a few books to read that would enlighten me about Wales, what would those books be?

Subject: RE: Folklore: The music of Wales
From: mg
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 02:55 PM

We had or have a Welsh community near Seattle in Black Diamond, a coal mining town. They used to come to Seattle to sing and it was wonderful...also communities throughout the Northwest including British COlumbia...I am about 3/8 Welsh I believe although that could include Cornish..my mother was a Williams..which is the third most common name in US I believe..Smith is first, Jones is 4th..no idea what is second...I checked on Jackson, Murphy, Garcia...but darned if I can figure out what it is. Interesting that 2/4 of the top US names are Welsh....Smith is McGowan in Irish so lots of Smiths would really be McGowans..and of course when people from Yugoslavia immigrated they were called Smith, Jones..anything that could be spelled easily..mg

Subject: RE: Folklore: The music of Wales
From: Peace
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 02:54 PM

Possibly so. I understood in a university class that the number of Welsh speakers had dropped to about 50 thousand--that was close to 25-30 years ago. At that time the prof (or grad student) said there was an effort underway to increase that number.

Subject: RE: Folklore: The music of Wales
From: sian, west wales
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 02:54 PM

Answers on the back of a postcard?

Ha!

OK - 'protest' songs are a way of life here. Dr Price is currently working with trac to get his collection of old ballads 'n' stuff typed up so he knows a lot about that end of things. I don't know if it would be correct to say (?) that the bulk of the protest songs since the 1960s have been related to preservation of the Welsh language as well as the Welsh independence movement. There's also a strong pacifist movement in Wales so there have been some excellent songs on those lines. (Well, unless you don't agree with the pacifist movement - but even then the songs are still good songs.)

Re: the relationship of the Welsh to Great Britain ... that depends who you ask. Even some people who were heavily into full independence are resting on their oars now that Wales has a National Assembly (rather like a provincial government but with less power).

The musical expression of Welsh nationalism is divers. Pop has the greatest chance of getting media air-time, but usually only in Wales, and usually only on the Welsh-language channels. But there is also 'folk', jazz, classical, etc. written as a conscious expression of being Welsh. Some artists feel that simply singing in the Welsh language is, in itself, a gesture of national alignment. I'd venture to say that this is true, say, of Cerys Matthews either when she was with Catatonia or now as a solo artist.

Re: language statistics, you've left off a '0'. In 1921, there were 922,100 Welsh speakers who were 37.1% of the population. In 1981, 593,500 (19%), and in 2001, 582,400 (20.8%). Some years ago I took a fork in the career path which means I have things like the "Digest of Welsh Statistics 2003: National Assembly for Wales" at hand. Sad, isn't it?

Oh - and if you want to hear a Plygain carol by a very traditional family group there's a sound clip here. Thank God for Max's Linkmaker!

Glad to see you're interested in this stuff! I'm going to make some supper now!

sian

Subject: RE: Folklore: The music of Wales
From: Mick Tems
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 02:47 PM

The number of Welsh speakers has remained pretty static over the last 200 years. In the Glamorgan valleys, most of the population spoke Welsh, but was pretty sparse. The coal boom brought workers flooding in, but the actual number of Welsh speakers did not go down. Drive through Llanelli (or Pontardawe) and up to North Wales, and you will find people speaking Welsh - the more so once you get to the Llyn peninsula. Have you been misled over the Welsh language?

Subject: RE: Folklore: The music of Wales
From: Peace
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 02:37 PM

Are there what North Americans would call 'protest' songs? I'm thinking of the mines and slag heaps (some of which have killed children). What is the relationship of the Welsh to Great Britain? (I know it's PART of it, but how happy a part? What is the musical expression of Welsh nationalism?

Subject: RE: Folklore: The music of Wales
From: sian, west wales
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 02:30 PM

Peace, I think there are a few quite recent threads on this, like this one on song and this one on the crwth . I work for trac and you'll find a great number of links to various societies, performers, etc on our website. Dr Price provides another valuable resource with his Mari Arts website. There's a good overview of Welsh instruments at this BBC Wales site but it falls down badly in that it doesn't discuss song. Weird, because the programme from which it grew did cover song. It's a big omission because one of the foundation blocks of Welsh music is how words - poetry - interact with instrumental music.

Re: choirs, yes, they make a mighty sound and are, historically, a major element of the Welsh 'musical nation'. They did, however, grow from an older tradition - that of the 'parti meibion' or male voice party - which is a smaller grouping, often less than 25 members. I tend to prefer these as they rely more on finesse than on producing a big wall of sound. There is a growing trend for these groups - often as 'pub choirs' - which I think is interesting.

This Saturday, trac is running a Plygain workshop. Plygain is a specific kind of Welsh carol singing, with the same roots as West Gallery singing, Shape Note singing, et al. Historically this was a 'men only' tradition but us females have elbowed our way in now. Well, except for the traditional closing Plygain carol (Plygain carols are sung as part of a specific Plygain service) and there would be a riot in Church if a female dared to join in THAT one. You may have come across a hymn popular in North America - All Poor Men and Humble. That is a direct translation and transplant of a Welsh Plygain carol, typical in its line and verse length of 17th century carols.

Am I right in thinking that you're from the Canadian prairies? There were a few Welsh immigrant communities there. There is a recording available from the Smithsonian of John Thomas, Bangor, Saskatchewan singing a Welsh carol of the "Twelve Days of Christmas" ilk. One track from the "Songs of Saskatchewan" LP

What else can we tell you?

sian

Subject: RE: Folklore: The music of Wales
From: Peace
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 02:24 PM

That is amazing, because 25 years ago there were but 50,000. Bravo for the Welsh.

Subject: RE: Folklore: The music of Wales
From: Mick Tems
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 02:21 PM

Not 50,000 Welsh speakers, but 250,000! Cymraeg (the Welsh language) is experiencing a boom at the moment. The University of Glamorgan's Welsh Department runs hundreds of Welsh learner classes (one of which I attend.) Don't forget, you don't have to speak Welsh to be a player of Welsh tunes, both traditional and written.

Mwynhauwch! (Enjoy!)

Subject: RE: Folklore: The music of Wales
From: Peace
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 01:50 PM

Part of the reason I asked is that I know at one time there were only 50,000 Welsh speakers left and the country has made a valiant effort to save/increase the use of its language. I was wondering whether its music had faced a similar fate. As to Welsh choirs, they are indeed world renown.

Subject: RE: Folklore: The music of Wales
From: Mick Tems
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 01:31 PM

The pibgorn, pibgyrn, fiddle, triple harp, tabwrdd, crwth, pibacwd...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I estimate that Wales has approximately 3,000 songs and pretty amazing tunes. Despite Kim Howells' (a traitor to Wales) evil work, there are sessions all over the country. Sorry to be so short, but I must go out to Gwerinwyr Gwent rehearsals!

Subject: RE: Folklore: The music of Wales
From: mg
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 01:25 PM

Gosh...fantastic music...incredible singers of hymns and group choral songs...very wonderful male groups, often coal miners...there is other music of course as well...harp, etc...but the huge choruses..sometimes thousands of people...are what come to my mind...mg

Subject: Folklore: The music of Wales
From: Peace
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 01:11 PM

I have a question to ask. It comes from my own ignorance. Bear with me.

Wales: it has its own literature, its own history, its own politics. Does it have its own music? That is, are there songs that specifically spring from a/the Welsh tradition? Are there musical instruments that originated in Wales? Is this a stupid question?

Thank you.