The Confederacy in Country Music (songs)

Subject: RE: the Confederacy in Country Music
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 06:55 PM

Tonight, I am having skillet-made cornbread with my bean recipe. Don't need the white gravy as the bean juice is just fine, but we thought about it.
Feelings are complex. My wife's accent always gets a little stronger as she prepares the cornbread, as only a Southerner can do it.

Subject: RE: the Confederacy in Country Music
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 05:21 PM

My wife has been offered good jobs in the southern states a number of times. As a northern Briton they're very tempting, my political sensibilities are with the union, my musical tastes very southern. Any place that spawned Earl Scruggs, The Sacred Harp and the B-52s can't be all bad. As someone said up thread, people are people, god bless them.

Subject: RE: the Confederacy in Country Music
From: John P
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 04:50 PM

A good subject no doubt for folks obsessed with needing to discuss things rather than have fun!!

Or for folks willing to reach unfounded conclusions about others . . . and then communicate those conclusions, compounding the foolishness.

Any chance you would just go away?

Subject: RE: the Confederacy in Country Music
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 04:21 PM

A good subject no doubt for folks obsessed with needing to discuss things rather than have fun!!

Subject: RE: the Confederacy in Country Music
From: John P
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 12:27 PM

It is not safe . . . to trust $800 million worth of negroes in the hands of a power which says that we do not own the property . . . So we must get out . . .
— The Daily Constitutionalist, Augusta, Ga., Dec. 1, 1860

[Northerners] have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery . . . We, therefore, . . . have solemnly declared that the Union heretofore existing between this State and other States of North America dissolved.
— from Declaration of the Causes of Secession

As long as slavery is looked upon by the North with abhorrence . . . there can be no satisfactory political union between the two sections.
— New Orleans Bee, Dec. 14, 1860

Our new government is founded upon . . . the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition.
— Alexander Stephens, Vice President of the Confederacy, March 21, 1861

Subject: RE: the Confederacy in Country Music
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 12:07 PM

Listening to NPR yesterday, an author made an interesting point during his interview with Terry Gross. He said that it wasn't just the South who bought into the Lost Cause myth. He said the North also latched onto the concept because it allowed the South a measure of honor in being able to to deny that thousands of its citizens had died in defense of slavery. The mutual acceptance of another more honorable motive, even a romanticized fallacy, smoothed the healing process and made the reabsorption into the Union easier.
This, I believe, has carried forward into the present, where even Northerners romanticize the notion of the Confederacy and the proud rebel soldier.Gone with the Wind was just as popular in Chicago as it was in Atlanta, and if you remember, the opening title read..
There was a land of Cavaliers and Cotton Fields called the Old South... Here in this pretty world Gallantry took its last bow... Here was the last ever to be seen of Knights and their Ladies Fair, of Master and of Slave... Look for it only in books, for it is no more than a dream remembered. A Civilization gone with the wind...

Subject: RE: the Confederacy in Country Music
From: Stringsinger
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 11:19 AM

Instead of saying Republican, I'll amend that to say any political party that is in thrall to corporations, Dems that means you too.

Subject: RE: the Confederacy in Country Music
From: Stringsinger
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 11:16 AM

Blueegrass music needs to change to reflect the times. It can't just be about fat white men with hats playing fast to impress each other.

The lyrics have to change. Hazel Dickens is on the forefront with lyrics depicting the condition today of exploited coal miners.

In place of the maudlin, sentimentalized, overly hymnal, bland lyrics of the contemporary bluegrass tune, the genre needs a song with teeth in it, telling the real story of the South today where jobs are being taken away by a greedy Republican Party, Federal money being denied to radio stations who broadcast from rural areas,

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2011/04/12-6

Appalachia being revisited with poverty and no justice for all.

Subject: RE: the Confederacy in Country Music
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 08:43 AM

By the way, Freikorps equals Nazis is also too facile a generalization.   There were lots of right-wing organizations in Germany right after WWI and no assurance the Nazis would be the ones to triumph.

It certainly is true that after a lost war, right-wing groups are likely to have clout--especially with huge numbers of unemployed bitter young men.

But, as has been pointed out, this is a distance from "The Confederacy in Country Music".

Subject: RE: the Confederacy in Country Music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 05:40 AM

Do you really think a psychoanalytic study of proto-nazis has validity in regard to The American Civil War?

It's the only study I've seen of the impact on popular culture of reactionary macho militarism challenged by catastrophic defeat. It isn't completely parallel - the Freikorps were pretty close in attitudes and actions to the Klan, but the Klan had next to no impact on wider cultural developments like country music, as far as I know, while the Freikorps generated a whole lot of now-forgotten literature, song and imagery.

Subject: RE: the Confederacy in Country Music
From: doc.tom
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 04:02 AM

I agree with Jack , but the digression has thrown up one interesting aspect that is relevant to the original post: 'good' or 'popular' songs don't come out of the side that won - yes, I know this is a huge generalisation, but bear with me a moment. Plenty of 'jingoism' (a word that came out of an Anglo-Russian war song in the first place) DURING conflict, but the sentimental popular song comes out of losing. This applies even centuries later - which is the area Dad Perkins is looking at - e.g. Trelawny: written early 20th Century, but referring to the Cornish Bishop centuries earlier - the song became an anthem to Cornishmen although Cornwall has only been officially recognised as a County ever since. It is only in recent years with an upsurgance of songwriting, another reinvention of celticism, and a genuine local pride that new positive songs are passing into popular currency and even some them still have a historic back reference. Another example of the style of faux-nostalgia time-shift between the original cause and the new song, of course, is Flower of Scotland!

Fascinating subject!

Subject: RE: the Confederacy in Country Music
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 03:45 AM

Whats a proto-nazi?

Heard of protoplasm, but not that. Not sure what you are talking about.

Subject: RE: the Confederacy in Country Music
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 03:16 AM

Looks like Godwin's Law just got another another outing.

Subject: RE: the Confederacy in Country Music
From: J-boy
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 11:24 PM

Do you really think a psychoanalytic study of proto-nazis has validity in regard to The American Civil War? Not criticizing. Just curious.

Subject: RE: the Confederacy in Country Music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 08:41 PM

This is getting sidetracked a long way from what the OP asked, which was a much less commonly discussed question than the rights and wrongs of the !860s Unpleasantness.

I will suggest a book that takes on a similar kind of cultural investigation, using an amazing range of materials and approaches: Klaus Theweleit's "Male Fantasies" ("Maennerphantasien" in German if you can read that). He's investigating the Freikorps, the right-wing militias that put down the Socialist and Communist insurrections of post-WW1 Germany and went on to form the nucleus of the Nazi movement, the SA in particular. His angle is mainly psychoanalytic, and sometimes out on the doolally fringe of that, but he's doing two things in common with OP's project:

- looking at how the cultural milieu of the time and the experience of war (and defeat) shaped the psyche of the men of that generation

- looking at the cultural products that reflected that psyche and appealed to it.

The range of media he looks at will surprise almost anybody. There are lots of pictures. (He also asks "how can we make sure this never happens again?" which I take to be the main motivation behind Frank's posts here).

Something like this needs a methodology. Theweleit's got one. I'm not suggesting anybody else should follow it, but it does set a coherent example.

Subject: RE: the Confederacy in Country Music
From: kendall
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 07:34 PM

The Civil War, which started on this date, was caused by a number of things. Slave owners wanted to expand into Kansas and Nebraska and there was much opposition to it in the North.

Two major mistakes led to the shooting, the south didn't believe that Lincoln would be elected and the North didn't believe the South would leave the union if he was elected.

In the North the soldiers didn't fight to free slaves, they fought to save the union.

More than enough stupidity to go around.

War, the ultimate failure.

Subject: RE: the Confederacy in Country Music
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 03:42 PM

I suggest that the US civil war was a result of power and greed - the slave question was but a sideline to suit the media ever since!!

Subject: RE: the Confederacy in Country Music
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 03:29 PM

I know there are some in bluegrass who are not into the "South shall rise again" attitude and that they have less of the stringent viewpoint that has been called "bluegrass nazi" but there are those who want to make it a cultish identity and those who claim that their music is somehow pure, but a hybrid like any other form of folk music.

This is not smearing because I am not painting all bluegrass musicians with the same brush but I am calling attention to the tendency of some toward racism,
pseudo-Southern jingoism, pseudo-sentimentality of the Confederacy, a big hoax,
and a general intolerance for any music that isn't bluegrass. You can't tell me that these attitudes don't exist. Otherwise there would be no point in saying that people are trying to smear bluegrass or the purpose of this thread.

To be in denial about this does no service to bluegrass music .

Subject: RE: the Confederacy in Country Music
From: kendall
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 12:23 PM

J-Boy, I'm not so sure. Remember that only a small fraction of the southerners were slave holders.

Subject: RE: the Confederacy in Country Music
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 09:20 AM

Most of the bluegrass songwriting about the Civil War is sentimental drivel".

This is the statement I object to---and I am not alone.

Some is, some isn't.

If you think it's "most" you need to hear more.

That's what I mean about "smearing".

And Mudcatters are not above it.

Though it's about time they at least tried to rein it in.

Subject: RE: the Confederacy in Country Music
From: J-boy
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 11:40 PM

You are quite correct Kendall. But I think you and I can both agree that the "better" side won.

Subject: RE: the Confederacy in Country Music
From: kendall
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 07:59 PM

Not totally. It is also hatred of being told how to live, and being bullied by the government.

Subject: RE: the Confederacy in Country Music
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 11:18 AM

Confederacy=racism.

Subject: RE: the Confederacy in Country Music
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 11:15 AM

"But that has never stopped Mudcatters from smearing a whole genre in the past.
It's also possible that the poster in question has a low tolerance for sentimental songs."

It isn't just the sentimental drivel but the propagandistic effects that it has which is used by the Southern White Ring. The pro Southern side of the Civil War is trumped up, and the "South shall rise againsters" belie the honesty of the lyrics.

As to the nature of Bluegrass, it is a Johnny-Come-Lately as of the 1940's.
It isn't fully matured as a genre of music as is say jazz. It is not above criticism as an art form.

As to sentimental songs in the 19th century, they were a mixed bag. Some were jingoistic such as "If you don't like your Uncle Sammy" to forerunners of the German popular song sentimentality that predated the 1920's in Berlin.

It's not the sentimentality I object to per se but the use of it as a racist propaganda tool as was done with the song "Dixie".

Subject: RE: the Confederacy in Country Music
From: Dad Perkins
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 09:01 AM

@ Jack,

Thanks for some astute observations and historical ideas. I'll look into those. That's good stuff.

Subject: RE: the Confederacy in Country Music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 08:21 AM

A lot of the rhetoric of southern-nostalgia songs seems to have been borrowed from Scottish Jacobite song (which was still an ongoing industry generating new songs at the time of the American civil war, and given a new lease of life, or at least twitching undead reanimation, by colour printing and the phonograph).

On the other hand, there isn't a tradition of Scottish sentimental song about loss comparable to C&W - Jacobite song didn't mutate in the way you're suggesting, it just fossilized.

Surely a lot of country was influenced by German and Russian Jewish sentimental parlour song and Thomas Moore Oirishry in the same way as Northern "Tin Pan Alley" stuff?

Subject: RE: the Confederacy in Country Music
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 11:06 PM

Some posters who enjoy smug generalizations might think so.

Subject: RE: the Confederacy in Country Music
From: Hrothgar
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 11:03 PM

If you play these songs backwards, does it mean that you get your girl, your dpg, your truck, and your slaves back?

Subject: RE: the Confederacy in Country Music
From: Wesley S
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 08:17 PM

Agreed Ron. Wasn't it Sturgon's Law that said 75 { or is it 90 } percent of everything is crap? Why pick on bluegrass - if you'll pardon the pun?

Subject: RE: the Confederacy in Country Music
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 07:57 PM

"Most...is sentimental drivel".

Correction:   Most of what the illustrious poster has heard.

But that has never stopped Mudcatters from smearing a whole genre in the past.

It's also possible that the poster in question has a low tolerance for sentimental songs.

Some people have a higher tolerance.

Country and bluegrass in general has a high level of sentimentality.   Some like it. Some don't.

That's what makes the world go round.


And the poster should count himself lucky he's not living in the 19th century--the real time that sentimental songs ruled popular music.    Now there are lots of alternatives.

Subject: Lyr Add: LEGEND OF THE REBEL SOLDIER (Country Gent
From: pdq
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 04:13 PM

"LEGEND OF THE REBEL SOLDIER" ~ as done by the Country Gentlemen

{aka "Shall My Soul Pass Through the Southland"}


In a dreary Yankee prison
Where a rebel soldier lay
By his side there stood a preacher
Ere his soul should pass away
And he faintly whispered: Parson
As he clutched him by the hand
Oh, parson, tell me quickly
Will my soul pass through the Southland?

Will my soul pass through the Southland
Through old Virginia grants
Will I see the hills of Georgia
And the green fields of Alabam?
Will I see that little church house
Where I pledged my heart and hand
Oh, parson, tell me quickly
Will my soul pass through the Southland?

Was for loving dear old Dixie
In this dreary cell I lie
Was for loving dear old Dixie
In this northern state I die
Will you see my little daughter
Will you make her understand
Oh, parson, tell me quickly
Will my soul pass through the Southland?

Then the Rebel Soldier Died

Subject: RE: the Confederacy in Country Music
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 04:10 PM

It's gonna be hard finding much that mourns the loss but plenty of raw anger at the government... Today's country songs are littered with Southern "pride" and "arrogance"...

"A country boy will survive..."...

B~

Subject: RE: the Confederacy in Country Music
From: kendall
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 04:06 PM

Bluegrass is not known for its lyrics.

Subject: RE: the Confederacy in Country Music
From: Stringsinger
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 04:02 PM

Most of the bluegrass songwriting about the Civil War is sentimental drivel.

Subject: RE: the Confederacy in Country Music
From: Stringsinger
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 03:45 PM

Hi Kendall, researched them on Wikipedia. Very much like the Coal Creek Rebellion in the 1880's where the governor called for scab labor from convicts while the Guard tried to oppress the miners. From this, we have Uncle Dave's "Buddy Won't You Roll
Down That Line?"

Do we see a historical pattern here? Then there's Woody's "Ludlow Massacre'.
And there's Woody's "1913 Massacre"

And today we have Massey Energy under Don Blankenship repeating history in the
Upper Branch Mine.


Jean Ritchie's epic "Black Water" about mountaintop removal and "The L.and N. Don't Stop Here Anymore" about what happens when the Company abandons the miners.

Southern history is being made today.   The real heroes are the Southern coal miners, not the yokel Confederate soldiers.

BTW the Re-enactment People have rewritten history too.

Did you know that "Dixie" is not a Southern song? Dan Emmett was a supporter of the Union in the Civil War. A publishing company in New Orleans stole the song and attempted to copyright it. That's how it wound up in the South.

Subject: RE: the Confederacy in Country Music
From: GUEST,bankley
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 09:28 AM

Steve Earle has a couple of good ones, from the perspective of infantrymen on both sides

Ben McCullough (Texas)
Dixieland (Maine)

Subject: RE: the Confederacy in Country Music
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 08:55 AM

What's more, "Rebel Soldier" is also an Irish song, I believe, called "Will My Soul Pass Through Old Ireland?".    Same plot, even same tune.    Original was "Brixton prison", now it's "Yankee prison".


Note that slavery is not mentioned in "Rebel Soldier" as sung by Country Gentlemen etc.

Note too, that again it is a man dying, and that it is, strictly speaking, bluegrass, not country music.   Finally, though this song is a big hit in the bluegrass community, so too are songs like "Faded Coat of Blue".    The way the issue is finessed sometimes in "Faded Coat", written at the end of the Civil War about a Union soldier dying and sung for instance by the Carter Family (who do want to appeal to a Southern base) is that the Carters transplant it to the Spanish- American War.

There is a very strong tradition in country and bluegrass to honor the dead of various wars.

As I said earlier, country and bluegrass is a very complex subject which does not lend itself to facile generalizations.

Of course it is true they are not about to honor the Union dead--just soldiers from after the Civil War.

Subject: RE: the Confederacy in Country Music
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 06:22 AM

Every one I have ever heard do this one is done the same way. Why do they have to modulate the key?

It is of course, based on the old Irish song, Kevin Barry.

Subject: RE: the Confederacy in Country Music
From: GUEST,Mike Rogers
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 04:57 AM

Mention of 'Hey Porter' reminds me that many of the train songs in country music extol the virtues of heading south. Without even breaking sweat I think of
Pan American - Hank Williams
City of New Orleans - Steve Goodman
The Golden Rocket - Hank Snow

Converesly I can't think of one northbound train song.

Subject: RE: the Confederacy in Country Music
From: Maryrrf
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 10:02 PM

Here's another, but I couldn't find a very good version of it Will My Soul Pass Through the Southland?. I heard it done at a concert and I believe it was recorded in the 30's, but not sure who the singer was.

Subject: RE: the Confederacy in Country Music
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 08:06 PM

Maybe Johnny Cash's "Hey Porter"?

Subject: RE: the Confederacy in Country Music
From: kendall
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 07:52 PM

A healthy slave cost thousands of dollars. Beating one to death is just not credible.

Subject: RE: the Confederacy in Country Music
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 05:34 PM

On one hand, you have the mythical 'South' with Scarlett O'Hara, darkie songs, so-called Southern gentlemen, Uncle Tom's Cabin, and a glorification of the Confederate army and the Confederacy.

What's Uncle Tom's Cabin doing in that list? My impression is that the myth of the Golden South does not include old slaves being flogged to death by their owners.

Subject: RE: the Confederacy in Country Music
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 04:01 PM

And furthermore a seething resentment at the centre of randy Newman's Rednecks - anger at the way people from his region are stereotyped, by 'smart' yankees.

Subject: RE: the Confederacy in Country Music
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 03:58 PM

An interesting subject.

There was song a few years back that went

I believe the South will rise again
Not in the old way (it hastened to add!) but the punceline was pretty powerful

Is it fanciful to hear a rejection of Northern values in such chestnuts as Okie from Muskogee and Up Against the Wall, You Rednck Mother?

A modicum of regret that the North won the Civil War.

Subject: RE: the Confederacy in Country Music
From: kendall
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 12:25 PM

Stringsinger, are you familiar with the Battle of Blair Mountain, or Matewan? That was the real south too.

Subject: RE: the Confederacy in Country Music
From: kendall
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 12:24 PM

The Civil war started over the plan to take slavery into Kansas and Nebraska. Then it came down to keeping the Union together. That was Lincoln's main goal.

Subject: RE: the Confederacy in Country Music
From: Stringsinger
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 12:00 PM

I think that The Carolina Chocolate Drops has gone a long way to show that "country" music is just a white thing and that black people can not only do it as well but lead the way in appreciating the history of Southern folk music.

Subject: RE: the Confederacy in Country Music
From: Stringsinger
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 11:53 AM

The South is a two-handed place. On one hand, you have the mythical "South" with Scarlett O'Hara, darkie songs, so-called Southern gentlemen, Uncle Tom's Cabin, and a glorification of the Confederate army and the Confederacy.

The real South has coal miners fighting for their rights and livelihoods, institutions like the Highlander Folk School who were integral to the Civil Rights Movement, many black heroes and musicians as well who gave us the blues and jazz.

I have the same ambivalence that Kendall has about the South. I love the old-time folk music of the early banjo pickers and singers and I have an antipathy for the maudlin sentimentalization of the Civil War and "the South shall rise again-sters". To me, this is phony.

I am uncomfortable with the attitudes of many bluegrass musicians who hang on to these phony "South shall rise again" values and it tends to turn me off to the music. I am uncomfortable with the emphasis on drinking, gambling, fighting and infidelity that is glorified and commericalized in Trashville country songs. On the other hand, I admire the importance of the folk songs that come out of the "hardscrabble" conditions of poor tenant farmers, isolated Appalachian families, Black People who have fought hard for their rights, coal miners (the real heroes of legend, not the cowboy), Southern unions, traditional balladeers and the lively dance music of hoe-downs and set-runnings. It seems to me that the phony nostalgia gets in the way of appreciating the real contributions of Southern music, being a tool for White-Ring propaganda, prejudice, bigotry and racial discrimination.

I would like to see more African-American people in bluegrass music to counter the negative attitudes of some of those white players. Bill Monroe was a complicated character, not admirable in his behavior, a formidable mandolin player though he does give credit to the blues for his style of playing which comes from Black People.

Earl Scruggs on the other hand seemed like a real gentleman and not part of the "tude"
that you get from some bluegrassers.

Alan Lomax told me the story of Hobart Smith and Mississippi John Hurt getting together to play music. Hobart was prejudiced. John was black. But when the two sat down to play music together, they appreciated each other so much that the wall melted away.



The Civil War was fought over slavery, regardless of any propaganda out there. An acknowledgement of this would go a long way to having an appreciation for the real values of the South, not the Senator Claghorn (Leghorn) stereotype or the Scarlett O'Hara phony pure white Southern womanhood. In it's place, we could learn to appreciate the folk music and the honest expression of the Southern people.

Subject: RE: the Confederacy in Country Music
From: GUEST,999
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 10:27 AM

I would opine that Foster laid a foundation for the notion of the 'happy slave' with some of his material. The displays of the Confederate flag harkens to a dark age: nostalgia, pining for 'the way it was'. Agggh.

Although I'm aware that in the War of the Northern Aggression, aka the Civil War, slavery was only an afterthought for many of the other issues your country faced at the time, racism seems to be a big part of it in the retrospect of and present-day philosophy of the South. The WHITE South.

Of course, mileages will vary on that view.

Nostalgia ain't what it used to be. I wish you success with your study. Big job you took on.