How can we make folk music more apealing

Subject: RE: How can we make folk music more apealing
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 01 Oct 99 - 08:07 PM

Well--only half kidding about "Louie, Louie" --it was, written, I suppose, with the intent of making some immediate money, but didn't,the song kicked around in Seatle as a sort of standard for garage bands, they discovered that they could play it for a half hour or more at a time, while their audiences danced, singing whatever words they could make up or remember--

The Kingsmen recorded it as a demo to get a job on a cruise ship or some such place, and they were asked for a vocal number--the singer didn't really know they lyrics, but fudged his way thru--

The recording got played someway or another on a local station, and, as these things happened, unplanned by anyone, it took off--

Hypnotically compelling, as the song was, garage bands across America learned it from the record, except that, since the singer didn't know the lyrics, no one else could figure them out either--in the manner of the Vanishing Hitchhiker and Mrs Field's Cookies and the Red Velvet Cake, stories started to circulate like wildfire about the allegedly filthy lyrics to the song--

There was a great hysteria in certain parts of the country, and, funniest of all, kids started making up their own dirty words to sing to the song!

The real lyrics to the song are folkloric enough, since they seem to be a collection of lyric fragments from other songs--but the story is a folklorists delight, and one could still do a respectable research project by collecting the various "dirty" versions--

Now I could ask you what you felt that Robert Johnson was doing when he copped licks off of Lonnie Johnson, and how that fits into into your paradign--was he just a kid imitating something he heard? Or maybe that is the folk process--

And of course folk songs predate their active bearers--and, as sadly was made evident in the case of Kurt Cobain--they live beyond their active bearers, as well--

Subject: RE: How can we make folk music more apealing
From: Frank Hamilton
Date: 01 Oct 99 - 06:35 PM

M. Ted,

I call that pop music which is music manufactured to make the songwriter some money. Kids imitate what they hear on the radio and recordings. When they imitate pop music, that's what they do. Re: In The Pines, haven't heard Nirvana do it. But the song has been around longer than they have. Or any form of rock and roll.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: How can we make folk music more apealing
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 01 Oct 99 - 03:27 PM

I thought it was a tiple song--

Subject: RE: How can we make folk music more apealing
From: Harvey Gerst
Date: 01 Oct 99 - 12:22 PM

"Which brings us to the magic question, is "Louie,Louie" a folksong?"

Yes, but only if you use a dulcimer, as was originally intended. (It's a great mental image.)

Subject: RE: How can we make folk music more apealing
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 01 Oct 99 - 11:25 AM

Just to continue in my very productive and action oriented direction--I have just been reading that Alan Lomax, many years ago, made the rounds to record companies in an effort to sell them on the idea of having their artists record folk music--

The fact that Nirvana covered "In the Pines" caused a lot of young aspiring guitar players to learn that song--I know because I taught it to a number of kids--

As to instrumental and singing technique, well, as it happens, these kids play and sing things their own way, which, although they cop a lot of stuff from records, has a lot to do with the way their friends and musician moms and dads, and who ever takes a couple minutes to show them something, play--what do you call that?

Which brings us to the magic question, is "Louie,Louie" a folksong?

Subject: RE: How can we make folk music more apealing
From: Frank Hamilton
Date: 01 Oct 99 - 10:25 AM

In my opinion, folk music may become commercial. But that's not it's intent. Commerciality has nothing to do with folk music. It's not music made for the charts. That doesn't preclude it's getting there. The idea of prettifying folk music to make it more accessible and popular is almost self defeating. Elitist may also be a view that somehow folk music isn't good enough on it's own but it has to be sold to a large public to validate it. For example, Joan Baez popularized many Appalachian folk songs. If Almeda Riddle singings any of them for the public, she is up for comparison to Joan's singing. Joan is a fine singer with a polished singing style that is more accessible to the public. The proof of this is that when folk music is talked about, Joan Baez name will come up. Few know about Almeda Riddle or Jean Ritchie. Both Almeda Riddle and Jean Ritchie as traditional American folk singers employ certain vocal ornamentations such as the raising of the seventh degree of the scale in an Ionian modal framework or bending notes, not arbitrarilly, but because this was a part of the cultural musical style of mountain singing. Joan doesn't do this. Joan as a "polished" popularizer of these songs rounds off the "rough edges". Her musicality is more informed by the popular and classical music of her day. The lush chord structures in her guitar dictate which way her voice will go. Nowadays, she isn't singing folk songs much at all but has gone the way of the singer/songwriter. Jean Ritchie by contrast has a lovely album called Mountain Born whereby she incorporates her traditional style with non-traditional elements of music but it works just fine. We don't lose sight of the "tradition" in her singing. The same can be said for Tommy Makem, the Bard of Armagh. There is a traditional "integrity" here that adheres to the respective cultures from where these artists came.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: How can we make folk music more apealing
From: Stewie
Date: 01 Oct 99 - 03:05 AM

I simply wish to express my surprise that, in the context of this discussion, no mention at all has been made of Snakefarm's 'Songs from my funeral' which in the British folk press at least has been heralded as 'exciting', 'e-folk's leading edge', 'taking traditional songs into the new millenium' etc. I bought it out of curiosity and I am not sure that I like it - but my daughter loves it.

Subject: RE: How can we make folk music more apealing
From: Andy
Date: 01 Oct 99 - 02:55 AM

Sadly I think we are in danger of getting in to a circular discussion here.

One valid point is exposure in the classroom voluntarily - Margarita repy above is very valid - sadly without being sexist this is often led by the girls as often we boys are at work or in positions where time off for such activity is not an option - a sad fact which will take years to change - but thankfully it is changing.

I have led maypole and barn dancing at my kids primary school - on meeting some of the kids a couple of years later they still remebered me in my morris kit and the live music and dance. The first step. Thinking about it I also played at their nursery before. Then (by gum I must be a disciple) I got my lodger and his children to a festival (zero folk background - kids into all the usal teenange nonsense) and they now love folk - Including he is addicted to Unaccompanied singing - even though he doesn't sing, he says can't ! Personal approach and enthusiasm go a long way.

We must not become elitist and we must not forget that we developed our craving for the history and background to the music and traditions after a first introduction - which was an entertainment, entertaining. The music in any shape or form must cover both areas very well and carefully in order to succeed. Some songs are to put it in the vernacular C**p but have a fascinating pedigree - should they be performed too often in public or kept for the workshops ? Some of the comments made about commercialism are partly defeated by mention of Burl Ives and the ilk - once CDs, vinyl etc. exist there is always an element of cemmercialism - no one is that philanthropic - it has all got to fit in to the jigsaw - bit of a complex 5000 piece on though. I must add this forum is great for looking for the pieces.

I think the Schools - by good informed performers with loadsa common sense is a great start - BUT - The schools can be reluctant and need to be careful there are a lot of wierdos out there, so can make us getting to them harder.

Just a few thoughts, hopefully not to controversial, sadly no answers or solutions.

A. XX

Subject: RE: How can we make folk music more apealing
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 01 Oct 99 - 01:37 AM

Frank,

Oddly enough, "Barbara Allen" was once something of a hit, having been on the Everly Brothers LP, "Songs Our Daddy Taught Us", which I recall as having been quite a big seller among the bobbysoxers, or whatever they were back then--

It also occurred to me that Don and Phil were probably the closest thing to traditional performers to ever hit the big time--That of course, was back when rock'n'roll was pure and innocent--

Now, should we make "Barbara Allen" the folksong of the month and try to teach it to aspiring singer/songwriters and maybe even see if we can get some alternative grunge band to do a "cover" of it on MTV Unplugged"?

Subject: RE: How can we make folk music more apealing
From: Harvey Gerst
Date: 30 Sep 99 - 08:36 PM

Tis a puzzlement.

Frank, I listen to your version of "Buffalo Skinners" and Roger McGuinn's version, and they're completely different in melody and chords. Your version is the darker and the heavier of the two, but which is closest to the original, I haven't a clue.

Yes, I know it's all part of the "folk tradition" but it's always part of the ongoing change and the re-definition of folk music.

On "Jay Gould's Daughter", we took a lot of liberties to make the song more fun for listeners, which possibly makes it more commercial - and less traditional.

Still if you were "dinking" around with that song on guitar, with various of your friends, I imagine Pete would come up with a harmony line similar to the one you used, and Lee would have done pretty much as it sounds on the album.

But, IF it were never destined to be recorded (i.e., just done for fun), would it be traditional or commercial? Does having Pete singing and playing banjo on it move it automatically from one realm to another?

Maybe it's intent that makes the difference. I see this as trying to define language by freezing it at some point in time and saying "that's what it is". But "folk music", like language, is more of a process to me - and it's always changing, which means it really can't be defined - at least in conventional terms.

I'll go take my medication now.

Subject: RE: How can we make folk music more apealing
From: Frank Hamilton
Date: 30 Sep 99 - 06:23 PM

Mark, thank you for your thoughtful response. We do agree. I confess to my frustration. For four years at the OTS of FM I tried to interest students in traditional folk song material. We used the popular "folk type" songs of the day in hopes that we could create more interest in the traditional stuff. The idea was just to get people to play and sing and enjoy it. There were people who did gravitate toward the folk songs as there were those who were content to stay with the composed "folk style" songs by the popular artists. We had the same discussion about "what is folk?" that we have now with one difference in my view. The traditional music has seemed to become less important in the public perception because it's not so showy. You don't blow people away with folk music.

You of course are right about the Weavers. I think that one thing that distinguished them from other folk groups to follow was their interest and committment to traditional folk music. When I was with them, there was a slight tension about this. Lee reflected more of a traditional approach because of his background and I think he felt that this wasn't as important as being more in tune with the Weaver's sound. The group went in for less traditional tunes as they went along. I think the lure of the pop world got to Lee. I don't know that he wanted the Weavers to be as popular as the Kingston Trio but I had a feeling that he would have liked some of that. I think that Ronnie and Erik were more tuned into the traditional approach. Freddie is a fine musician but much more eclectic in his interest in music. They did sound different than many pop groups at the time or who came later. Their focus was as songwriters and adaptors who carried their political ideology into their music and I think they did this successfully.

You bring up the problem of academia and this is valid. It can alienate folks who haven't been exposed to traditional folk. Mainly, it's an attitude thing that I have encountered amoung die-hard "folkies" who have to do things the "right" way. This lead to a schism in the 60's where young people said in effect that they didn't want the creative limitations imposed on them by academic authorities and went into rock and roll because it was "freer". Unfortunately many folklorists and scholars had a more "hard nosed" attitude in those days about folk music and turned a lot of people off. There is also the adage, "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing". Because there's so much to learn about traditional folk music, it's hardly a "science" although some have tried to make it so.

I think that if we take the view that recently composed songs are folk songs, we run into problems. They haven't gone through variations and haven't had historical or cultural connections that are so important to the appreciation and understanding of the music. The very music itself is tied into history and social/cultural influences of a given group and if this is ignored, than folk music becomes whatever anyone wants to make it from acid rock to Pavarotti.

You may be right that restrictive definitions are not useful as much as information about trad folk. A lot of this is highly subjective with me because I grew up listening to Library of Congress field recordings, Folkways records, early 78's of "country" and blues, and music that Rounder has so admirably released. (I sat at the feet of my mentor, Bess Lomax Hawes.) I loved the so-called "primitive" sounds of the singers, many with "outdoor" voices and rich timbres who employed unusual ornamentation and nuances in their singing style that you couldn't hear by the "professional" singers on the radio or TV. Then when I heard many of these traditional sources live they presented to me an entirely different experience in listening to music. There was a raw power in their music which didn't so much as blow you away but pull you in. A blues musician in the back of town in Mississipi or Tennesee sounded so different than Eric Clapton or many of the rock and roll stylists playing popularized "blues". It was an intimate experience which would sometimes be out of place on a concert stage or in a night club which demands a kind of showy energy to please a crowd. This stuff was from the heart and sung not to please any audience or to hit the charts but because the singer was talking about his real conditions that were there in his cultural environment. How can you make this appealing to a large audience? Don't know. Maybe the answer lies in smaller audiences without the distancing effect of sound systems between the singer and the audience. I think there is room for the "revivalist" folkie to play concerts. Pete Seeger certainly is one of the greatest musical performers of this century and imparts the feeling of folk music without actually having come from any specific folk tradition, although some will disagree with that assessment who remember the association of folk songs with the left-wing and labor movement.

I'm back to square one. To make it more appealing, we have to know what it is.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: How can we make folk music more apealing
From: Mark Clark
Date: 30 Sep 99 - 04:32 PM

Frank,

I agree wholeheartedly. I too love to listen to the original performances and actually own (and play) some of those old field recordings on Folkways. I share your view of "entertainment" and am rarely entertained by products advertised as entertainment. I imagine the facility you describe is what we all hope for the OTSFM. I too would prefer an educated audience committed to the authenticity of the music and aware of its heritage.

Still, not everyone who wants to talk about the weather is interested in meteorology. If we want to troll for new converts don't we need to begin by presenting some performances that are designed to capture the attention of those with no knowledge or experience of folk music? (I don't mean to imply that I have some idea how this is to be accomplished.) Please straighten me out if I'm off track but the early Weavers sounded (to an eight year old) unlike any of the popular music with which they were competing; still, On Top Of Old Smokey, and Goodnight Irene just blew everyone away. Neither of those performances was entirely true to the original but the effect was to help kindle an interest in folk music of all kinds outside of academia.

 

<< There are many people who really don't know the difference and will call early popular music "folk".>>

Yes, and there are many people today who will call contemporary popular music "folk." <g> Isn't that related to the same question that has been so often asked: are folk songs designed (dare I say written?) to be folk songs or is any suitable song kept and carried through oral tradition a folk song? Since I am unable to enforce any preferred definition I've decided I'm better served by resisting the temptation to define folk music and just continue to play and look for music that pleases my ear and my own sense of propriety. Someone should be working on the definition but probably not me.

Thanks for your considerable insight,

- Mark

Subject: RE: How can we make folk music more apealing
From: Margo
Date: 30 Sep 99 - 02:21 PM

Well, I'm doing my part. Four days a week I sing and play at my son's preschool. I have played piano, guitar, and concertina. The kids love it! Today I did an encore performance of The Little Engine that Could because it was so popular. Just my voice and the concertina. They're such a wonderful audience. A little noisy, but mostly attentive, and very appreciative.

Now that I think about it, most of the folk music I was exposed while a child was Burl Ives records. I really liked them, and still do.

Margarita

Subject: RE: How can we make folk music more apealing
From: Frank Hamilton
Date: 30 Sep 99 - 02:03 PM

M.Ted, I think your idea is great. A little musicology would help. A knowledge of the background, history, culture and the evolution of the song would open the door.

Mark, I think we need to look at each song here. The earlier variants of folk songs don't necessarilly stem from "commercial" sources. IE: Barbara Allen was hardly a chart buster through the ages. There are many people who really don't know the difference and will call early popular music "folk". This is because they haven't been exposed to traditional sources.

Entertainment is different for people. I don't find some things that are called "entertaining" entertaining at all. People in the cities today are prone to walk out on much more than they ever have traditionally because the entertainment field has reached a glut. There is a lot more impatience on the part of an audience today due to TV and the availability of so much "entertainment". I find that the knowledge, background, musical styles, lyric content of traditional American folk music very entertaining personally. I could sit and listen to unaccompanied ballads done by a traditional singer for a long period of time. I don't need a song "jazzed up" or put in a framework of show business excitement to be truly entertained.

I think that most audiences who look for "entertainment" have gotten lazy. They don't care about what they hear as long as it is somehow stimulating for them, sensually or in some cases mind-numbing. Not many are going to look for the roots of what they hear. This is why traditional folk music is on the back burner these days when it comes to audiences interest. Here's the problem. There's not many places people can go to be educated about folk music or music in general. Here's the solution. There should be such a place. It should have folklorists, folksong collectors, musicologists, teachers, recordings of traditional music, books available on folklore and music, "revival" folk song singers who care about the music and whenever possible, traditional singers and musicians who can provide the necessary insight to the music.

What does not need to be done is for anyone who sings and plays a musical instrument to define themselves as a traditional folk singer when they are really part of the entertainment music business and have a vested interest in creating a career capitalizing on this image. Those singers who are in a song circle and remember IE: Hoagy Carmicheal's early popular songs as something learned from their Uncle Rufus as folk songs are misinformed.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: How can we make folk music more apealing
From: GeorgeH
Date: 30 Sep 99 - 10:56 AM

Frank: Re: the UK - no correction needed. And there are others to add; I suppose the Howsons are probably the most obvious.

G.

Subject: RE: How can we make folk music more apealing
From: DougR
Date: 30 Sep 99 - 12:03 AM

Spaw: Encouraging folks to tune in on that Jesus Dance site is going to get you a reservation in a place hotter than July in Arizona! I'll pray for you when I can stop laughing.

DougR

Subject: RE: How can we make folk music more apealing
From: Mark Clark
Date: 29 Sep 99 - 01:01 PM

Over the years I've often thought about the definition of folk music and, although I've constructed various hypotheses at different times, none has ever really stood the test of time. Einstein taught us that the act of measuring something necessarily alters the observation of that being measured. I wonder if folk music is like that. What if all the recording, cataloging and analysis of folk music continues to alter our perception of it? It's probably been twenty-five years or more since I began using the term traditional music to refer to the music I love best since, as others have pointed out, the term folk music lost much of its meaning in the U.S. due to it's appropriation by the music industry.

Of course the term traditional music is getting fuzzy as well. As I attend jam sessions, song circles and festivals I often hear songs that were originally popular commercial tunes being carried on as oral tradition. People have often lost sight of the commercial original and remember the songs as "the one Uncle Ralph used to sing" and pass them along to their friends and children without further attribution. Many of these songs have been sung and passed around long enough to be called traditional in many contexts. Sometimes I find myself wondering whether any song accessible enough to fit the genre and that people hold in high enough regard to keep and pass around is in danger of becoming a folk song one day.

As far as making folk music more appealing (more widely admired?) is concerned, I think that is largely a function of how entertaining we can make it. I strongly suspect that people a hundred years ago walked out on a performance they didn't enjoy just as quickly as people today. My own acquaintance with traditional music is entirely due to the commercial appeal of Gene Autry, the Weavers and the Kingston Trio. From those beginnings, I just kept "poling upstream" trying to find the influences that caused these wonderful performers to choose the material and presentation that made their music so compelling. I'm afraid I don't see any way to get others to start the journey except by attracting their attention with material and presentations that are primarily entertaining but leave the audience wondering how the music came to be. Most audience members will simply be entertained but some will go looking for its roots. A few will take the music and use it as a basis for creating something new.

- Mark

Subject: RE: How can we make folk music more apealing
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 29 Sep 99 - 11:48 AM

Frank,(or anybody) what did you think of my idea? Which was to create some sort of missionary effort to teach these "folksingers" some traditional folk songs and help them to learn how to think and play in tradtional styles--even if it's for only one or two songs--anyone game for this?

Subject: RE: How can we make folk music more apealing
From: Frank Hamilton
Date: 29 Sep 99 - 11:45 AM

Andy,

The solution is simple to me. A greater appreciation for the folk traditions of each respective country is in order. Work that the Folklife Center in Washington is doing, the Smithsonian in DC as well, the work that the Lomaxes have done for the Library of Congress,recording companies such as Rounder Records, Folkways/Smithsonian Folk Legacy, Greenhays (owned and operated by the Jean Ritchie Pickow family), Arhoolie (Chris Strachwitz), Legacy and Blues Roots (Columbia) and others have done, and the countless wonderful books in the field of folklore and folk music.

In the UK, (correct me if I'm wrong George) The Cecil Sharp House, the radio broadcasts by Ewan McColl, "revivalist" folk interpreters such as the laudable Martin Carthy, Nic Jones, and our own imports such as David Jones and Louis Killen, the Comhaltas from Ireland, Tommy and Sarah Makem, ....there are so many that are doing the job and not begging the question one bit. These are not the popular music singer/songwriters.

As to Country and Western, this is a record company designation such as was the term Hillbilly music to isolate a market for sales. The music of Country and Western started from an interest in American folk music and soon became appropriated by the music merchants in a similar fashion to what has happened to the term "folk" these days. Loretta Lynn may be the coal miner's daughter but she is not singing songs of the coal mine where she grew up because that "don't sell". Sarah Ogan Gunning, Mike Paxton, Hazel Dickens, Pete Steele, Nimrod Workman, Merle Travis and others have sung of the coal miner's life. Merle Travis did not make all of his money singing coal miner songs, though. A wonderful book to read would be Archie Green's "Only A Miner" to give you some more background on "Country and Western".

Mind you, I have no gripe with popular music. I love it play it, and enjoy much of it but "it ain't folk music".

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: How can we make folk music more apealing
From: GeorgeH
Date: 29 Sep 99 - 11:34 AM

I hate and avoid "what is folk" threads so I'm not going to get drawn into one . . though the stretch of the imagination by which Kate Rusby is working in a different genre to Martin Carthy is beyond me . . . Though I'm not sure that's actually what Andy was saying.

So let me point this back the way I see it. There is a range of music which "we" like and which we see as relevent to this place. For any individual's selection from that music, there are a whole load of folks out there who have never heard it. And of those there are some who would like it if they did. That's before you come to the stuff which requires a little more effort to appreciate, which folks are likely to be led towards once they discover the musical riches we know and love . . .

Let me also make a distinction between "popular music" and just about all other sorts. Pop (and, to an extent, Rock) is largely consumed as background. Even at a pop concert the audience are not primarily out to LISTEN to the music. Whereas most other music ("classical", Jazz, "shows") carries an expectation that you actually make space to listen to it. And - to my mind - THAT's where Folk belongs. If it cross-feeds into "Pop" then so much the better, but that's still a peripheral part of it.

G.

Subject: RE: How can we make folk music more apealing
From: Andy
Date: 29 Sep 99 - 11:17 AM

O.K. Can't totaly disgree with the statement but the thread of the argument still applies and the solution to the current problem which sems to be relatively Global is still no closer.

I could be flippant and state that you have country and Western to deal with too ! But I believe that would be counter productive and potentially inflamatory as the same arguments apply !

Subject: RE: How can we make folk music more apealing
From: Frank Hamilton
Date: 29 Sep 99 - 10:32 AM

Sorry to disagree here but folk music was not necessarilly the popular music of the day at least here in the US. Popular music of the day was defined in the 1800's by such tunes as "After The Ball Is Over" which was a big seller in the sheet music field. I agree that the upper crust were embarrassed by American folk music and fought like hell to keep it from becoming popular. It was regional and reflective of cultural sub-groups who were not plugged into the popular music field. The music was "popular" only to the people in that respective tradition.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: How can we make folk music more apealing
From: Andy
Date: 29 Sep 99 - 08:54 AM

Hmmmm....... Sorry it's a long one ! This discussion begs the question :- What is Folk Music? Think back to the times we all 'hark back to.' When the world was hard, when there was no radio, TV, newspapers were local, when a president was shot it took a week to get around the country ! What was folk music but the popular music of the day. But then we invlove the class distinction theories. The Upper crust Americans in the Deep South did not sing negro spitituals - a form of folk music or was it ethnic roots music of the 'coloured man' - don't wish to be racist or sexist here but speaking in terms of the music genre of the era ! Look a the Stephen C Foster stuff and its impact. Then in UK the miners sung about the tragic disasters the fishermen the same sort of thing.The Upper classes listened to Beethoven, Brahms Bach and the rest. Today the masses live by Popular music, the upper classes sadly are about the only ones who can afford Opera and Ballet regularly. Not predjudiced, I just can't afford 30 quid for a decent seat at the Ballet very often ! Examine your CD Collection. Define Folk music and try to include it in to the modern music genre. Geldorf sang about Africa - Emotional Claptrap in some ways but then so was some of the old 'folk stuff'. It can all make your skin creep. Does the word need to be spread ? Are We (yes I admit it I'm a Folkie !) stuck in a rose tinted time warp. I worked in Opera for a while, look at the Folk roots of Rimsky Korsakov's work to name but one. To become separatist is probably the crime whilst we need the extremists and the experts (Carthy Kirkpartick and others in UK) we need some representation in the popular arena (Lisa Carthy, Rusby and others) which is indeed where what we call 'Folk' began. Tehn look a tthe experimentations with roots sounds Edward II and others. This argument applies right through Playford, Celidh dancing, Flatfooting, Rapper Sword, aven Taiko Drimming must address it otherwise we end up back at my Morris dancing argument 'Pickled in Aspic'

I don't have any answers and I love my rose tinted world and I don't want it to die but hey any other Ideas. A XX

Subject: RE: How can we make folk music more apealing
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 28 Sep 99 - 01:36 PM

It strikes me that the best thing to do is to create some sort of missionary effort to teach these "folksingers" some "real" folk music and help them to learn how to think and play in tradtional styles--even if it's for only one or two songs--

Subject: RE: How can we make folk music more apealing
From: GeorgeH
Date: 28 Sep 99 - 12:05 PM

Frank,

Yes, one advantage we do have here is that the term "Folk Singer" has never been widely used to refer to musicians whose music has nothing to do with Traditional music - except when the term is used to describe American performers . . There was a brief flirtation with "Contemporary Folk" as a musical description but fortunately that (like the music it described) went into terminal decline . . .

On the other hand, I think you're ahead of us in systematic recording and archiving of your traditions. And we're way behind the Hungarians in recognising that traditional music is a treasure house which can stand comparison with more "classical" musical forms.

That said, I'd add "more power to your elbow" in your hopes for traditional musics in your home land; I share them here.

G.

Subject: RE: How can we make folk music more apealing
From: Frank Hamilton
Date: 28 Sep 99 - 11:21 AM

Here's what I see. The UK and Ireland are closer to the roots of their music then we are in the States. Ewan McColl and A.L. Lloyd have apparently had some effect on the UK folk scene. The Comhaltas Ceoltori Eireann has had a considerable effect on the Irish scene. As I see it now, the traditional American folk music is being buried by entertainers who don't really know much about it and are calling themselves "folk singers". They are writing in a genre that borrows heavilly from popular music of the sixties and seventies and many of the songs tend (not all) to sound alike.

I envision a place where people can come to study the traditions of American folk music in all of it's diversity. We have to look past Jimi Hendrix and his blues influences by discovering those influences themselves. What this means is that we have to honor the work that our American folklorisits and collectors have done by examining this great body of music and song as they have effectively done in the UK, Ireland and other European countries such as Hungary. Bela Bartok knew what Hungarian folk music sounded like. He spent exhaustive hours annotating traditional Hungarian fiddle tunes and archiving them. Kodaly did similar. John Lomax presented cowboy songs to Harvard's Kittredge when almost nobody was interested in them. Folk music in the States for a long time was considered to be "primitive", and "inferior" to art music and there was an embarrassment about it by many people who came out of the cultures that produced it. This went on for decades. This attitude persists today somewhat. It's time to get past this. Lets look at the raw traditional folk music and see it's value not try to pretty it up for the marketplace or turn it into an image selling kind of thing to increase the amount on a songwriter's royalty statement. We need a place that can help us do this. Originally I thought that this was what the Old Town School of Folk Music in Chicago could do. Right now, the jury's out in this.

I'm glad that this is taking place in the UK and Ireland. It can be a model for us here in the States.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: How can we make folk music more apealing
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 28 Sep 99 - 10:02 AM

Frank, when you talk about teaching, what, specifically, do you have in mind? What qualifies as traditional music? Are you concerned about traditional singing and instrumental styles? Do you want to try to re-infuse this into the "mass music market" or is it important to keep things on a local level?

It seems like you have some as yet unrevealed plan--and, what with the Millenium coming, it seems like we could use a plan--

Subject: RE: How can we make folk music more apealing
From: Andy
Date: 28 Sep 99 - 03:42 AM

Well there are so many of us at present with this idea - unless we all behave stupidly we are bound to have some success BUT we must remember some things are changing and life is never static.

The die in the bed dedicated folkie is becoming a thing of the past (prabbaly a good thing). Musical tastes appear to be a lot broader and all encompassing. You can hear Hendrix played by 18 year olds at Folk festivals these days ! There again examine the roots of some of his music....

There are actually NVQ courses taking folk music and local history links in to schools now. The UK Gov't has recognised that this aspect is very important all ove the third world and emerging countries there is a strong sense of Tradition and culture we in the 'Civilised West' seem to have lost the plot.

I was raised in the North east of England and brought up with the knowledge, and was proud of, of the traditions and history of the area - The steelworks, cola (Sorry Coal) mines - The passenger railway (Stockton Darlington you know). This all slipped out of education as we became hide bound by qualifications and how to get a job earning mega bucks. Quality of life and rounded education became a thing of the past - it didn't make money and we lost a lot of soul. It is coming back and we must try and help it as best we can. It is not just the folk music that is lost but it is a whole generations cutlure was thrown on the scrap heap of capitalist nonsense - no I am not a communist - far from it but part of the solution is not just get the folk out there - although this has got to be a major part of any recovery - but a change in attitude in the classroom, by parents, along with a higher less 'weave your own babies' image.

I'll be watching this one.

A XX

Subject: RE: How can we make folk music more apealing
From: Frank Hamilton
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 01:14 PM

Psul G, what were some of the songs you sang in the class? What kind of historical information did you apply to each song? This sounds great!

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: How can we make folk music more apealing
From: Paul G.
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 12:14 PM

Hello All...yep, I'm still around. Been on the road and started work on the new recording...shamelss self promotion coming up in another thread later...In regard to the current...I was invited by a music professor at the University of North Florida to attend her honors class and sing a few tunes in order to expose the students (undergrads) to folk music. They had been studying the social foundation of various music styles. That hour was one of the most involved, consuming, responsive, spell-binding performance opportunities of my life. We talked about the origins of the songs -- some trads and some of my own, about the roots of folk, etc...I stayed 2 hours over time. The next week I received a card from the class, filed with comments like "we never knew that folk music was cool"..."I just bought my first Pete Seeger album"..."when are you coming back?". The issue is exposure and educations. We have to be creative about pushing through the veil of the popular culture. Your local universities are ripe for it. The mass marketers aren't going to infuse mega-money into promoting folk, so we have to pull open our longcoats, expose ourselves and say here it is...

Subject: RE: How can we make folk music more apealing
From: Paul G.
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 12:14 PM

Hello All...yep, I'm still around. Been on the road and started work on the new recording...shamelss self promotion coming up in another thread later...In regard to the current...I was invited by a music professor at the University of North Florida to attend her honors class and sing a few tunes in order to expose the students (undergrads) to folk music. They had been studying the social foundation of various music styles. That hour was one of the most involved, consuming, responsive, spell-binding performance opportunities of my life. We talked about the origins of the songs -- some trads and some of my own, about the roots of folk, etc...I stayed 2 hours over time. The next week I received a card from the class, filed with comments like "we never knew that folk music was cool"..."I just bought my first Pete Seeger album"..."when are you coming back?". The issue is exposure and educations. We have to be creative about pushing through the veil of the popular culture. Your local universities are ripe for it. The mass marketers aren't going to infuse mega-money into promoting folk, so we have to pull open our longcoats, expose ourselves and say here it is...

Subject: RE: How can we make folk music more apealing
From: Frank Hamilton
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 10:55 AM

There needs to be a place where people can learn about traditional American folk music. Not warmed over pop music in a folk style. The pop-folk connection has spawned more interest in the pop-folk connection and not in traditional American folk music. In school, I was exposed to this more than young people are today. Nowadays, teachers are telling young students that songs like Donovan's "Yellow is the Color of My True Love's Hair" is a folk song. Misinformation at the speed of light.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: How can we make folk music more apealing
From: GeorgeH
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 09:18 AM

Simple answer . . Put Flook! on.

We had them perform on Friday night; about 40% of our audience were kids (a party of 30 from a school about 25 miles away, and probably 50 from the local school who work with us on the events) and they all loved it. Despite our running out of Cola and Chocolate bars in the interval (serious mis-calculation on our part). All the audience survey returns (which included the right proportion of kids to match the audience) rated the performance at 5 out of 5, even though only 70% ticked "Folk/Roots" as a type of event they'd be likely to attend. (We try to market everything as "Music" rather than using the F-word.)

Or, put another way, the problem isn't the music - it's giving people the opportunity to hear it and judge for themselves.

Special note to UK-catters: No doubt you're all aware that as we talk there is a "Public Consultation" on a "Music for Youth" scheme, trying to decide how to spend gbp 30 million on promoting music amongst young people? Consultation closes on 1st Oct. (The consutation document is crap, and the board of trustees is a narrow group of the "great and good" from the world of "Classical" music with a Rock performer and an MOR entertainer thrown in for good measure.)

G.

Subject: RE: How can we make folk music more apealing
From: Sam Pirt
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 05:12 AM

I think that there are increasing numbers of young people getting involved in both folk music and sing. I think that in a couple of years the scene will overflow with young performers, as it is beginning to in England. I do think it is important to think about these aspects of the music.

Cheers, Sam

Subject: RE: How can we make folk music more apealing
From: Joseph
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 02:37 AM

One of the things that is getting in my own way is very limited availability of sheet music. Or maybe I just aint lookin' right. I been poking around on the WWWeb for about an hour and don't have much to show for it.

10 of my 20 mils.

Joseph

[e-mail]

Subject: RE: How can we make folk music more apealing
From: WyoWoman
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 01:01 AM

My experience is that young people, like any other people, respond when someone shares their passion. If you do what you do with integrity and passion, and do it with a welcoming spirit, they'll respond. What makes me saddest is how few opportunities they get even to be exposed to folk, or any other type of music.

(Note: They don't always act as though they're eating out of your hand, especially the jr. high and high school ones. But at least a few of them are "getting it." They're just too cool to let on. and the answer to that, as with all of us, is "given 'em some room to respond however they do, and try not to take anything personally." )

Hey, Joe -- Is "Little Bunny Foo-foo" a folk song?

ww

Subject: RE: How can we make folk music more apealing
From: Joe Mahon, Princeton, NJ
Date: 26 Sep 99 - 07:32 PM

Several thoughts come to mind.

First and foremost, make it fun. I grew up playing banjo and guitar, and have since taken up harmonica and concertina, so I have been greatly immersed in traditional music. After several years of not playing, I took all my instruments form my parents' home when my kids were young so that they could see that music is something we can make for ourselves. The strategy worked with my daughter, who sings in the choir, plays trumpet at school and has an unrealized interest in the guitar.

I also coach youth sports, primarily ice hockey, and some baseball. The lessons of working with kids should not be surprising. First, keep it fun. Second, keep it interesting by continuing to teach (that is teach, not preach!) I have seen kids driven out of sports by an overemphasis on structured competition, in which kids are pressured to achieve goals for which they have not been prepared. The result is that they just lose interest. Does the same thing happen in music? Do we unwittingly create barriers to participation or appreciation? I expect that the proliferation of new media, the internet and CD technology, will only continue to make so-called folk music (as well as its musical competitors) all the more accessible. The opportunities to make music fun and interesting should only expand.

The relationship between folk music and popular culture also should not be ignored. Consider the book published by Sing Out Magazine called Rise Up Singing. Look at the number of songs in it that came from popular culture, be it Stephen Foster, Rogers and Hammerstein or the Beatles. Remember that even the most traditional folk songs, such as the Child Ballads, were once the popular culture of their time. Consider the foundation that folk music laid for our own popular culture since the 1950's. English skiffle bands were the earliest model for the Beatles. John Sebastion of the Loving Spoonful has returned to his folk roots with his J Band. Jerry Garcia and the Greatful Dead. The folk tradition is a wide open, never ending process, that people participate in because it's fun and interesting.

Subject: RE: How can we make folk music more apealing
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 26 Sep 99 - 06:56 PM

I am so sick of hearing the "party line" about corporate America and agitating and standing together, and all that other tired old, warmed over leftist stuff--this is not a war--

the best thing about traditional and folk music, whatever you might think it happen to be, is that it continues to be reborn spontaneously with every new singer--and the melodies, the fragments of verse, the stories just keep coming back, slightly altered, with each new generation--

I say bless every one who lifts a voice and takes out a guitar, banjo, ukulele, triangle, even electronic keyboard, with the intent to entertain--however they manage to make it work!

Subject: RE: How can we make folk music more apealing
From: northfolk/al cholger
Date: 26 Sep 99 - 05:42 PM

Start by not changing the music... then struggle every day to educate and agitate against the agenda of corporate america, where they steal our airwaves and fill it full of pop culture pablum, and convince us to stand in line for days on end to see the likes of the spice girls... expose our young to singing and storytelling, not in the context that the song or story is so important...but that the reason to tell it, and pass it on, is. then reallize that this may not change as soon as we would like it to, but: Step by step, the longest march can be run, many stones can form an arch, singly, none. and by union, what we will, can be accomplished, still. Drops of water turn a mill, singly none.... good things are happening...the times they are a changin'...

Subject: RE: How can we make folk music more apealing
From: Frank Hamilton
Date: 26 Sep 99 - 09:56 AM

You can't make folk music more appealing than it is in my opinion. What you can do is find a way to involve people in it that have not been exposed to it before. The best way is "hands on". Get them to sing and play and own it. That's what we tried to do at the Old Town School years ago.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: How can we make folk music more apealing
From: Garry of Australia
Date: 26 Sep 99 - 04:43 AM

Not play folk music

Subject: RE: How can we make folk music more apealing
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 26 Sep 99 - 02:25 AM

Joe:

There's no magic formula. What works for us might not work for you and vice versa. But, from other of your postings we know that most of the songs you do will work with kids.

Why did we all learn the same songs in camp? Because kids have liked these songs for generations. Believe it or not, we both went to the same summer camp when we were kids about fifty years ago and learned the same songs. Now we do them in schools and, guess what, kids still like 'em. Songs like Rise and Shine, I've Been Workin' on the Railroad, The Titanic.

For little kids, say up to grade two, keep them involved. Nearly every song we do for that age has a part for them to do like clapping, hand movements, call and response, etc. For older kids, say grades three to five, repetitive songs are dynamite like Just Passing By and Green Grass Grew all Around. For still older kids humor works well. Our most requested song is Bill Steel's Garbage followed closely by Arkansas Traveller and Foolish Questions. Also, we tell a lot of stories. For kids who think they're too old to listen to stories, we call them folk tales!

Does this help?

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: How can we make folk music more apealing
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Sep 99 - 02:05 AM

Bev and Jerry, you may be just the people I need. Now that I'm almost retired, I'd like to get back to singing in schools. I've done it only on a limited basis in the past, and used my usual repertoire of camp songs and stories.
Can you give us a list of songs that really "work" for kids, and tell us what age groups you think they're suited for?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: How can we make folk music more apealing
From: _gargoyle
Date: 26 Sep 99 - 01:16 AM

play it to a disco-slap-beat.

Subject: RE: How can we make folk music more apealing
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 25 Sep 99 - 09:35 PM

As mudjack mentioned, we are starting our nineteenth year of performing in schools. We do mostly traditional songs with a few comtemporary or original songs in the traditional style thrown in. We rarely have any difficulty keeping the attention of even the yountest kids for fifty minutes or more.

The trick is to do songs kids like. We select songs through good judgement. How did we get good judgement? We got it through bad judgement. Kids seem to like some songs and they don't like others. There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to it. But, they definitely like folk music and are very open to the idea that it's music we do together.

Also, most days after our performance we do hands-on programs in which kids get to play autoharps, limberjacks, and spoons. This proves to them that they, too, can make music. The joyful expression on kids' faces never cease to amaze us when they master something on one of these instruments.

All kids need is adequate exposure and we can create another generation just like us. Maybe even better.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: How can we make folk music more apealing
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Sep 99 - 08:26 PM

No, don't click it..it doesn't go anywhere...I just could NOT leave "ChristianDeerHunters" alone...

Subject: RE: How can we make folk music more apealing
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 25 Sep 99 - 01:24 PM

Patsclaw, I'm willing to grant you the thirty points you need. I'm willing even to share my title with you. But I'm not willing to stand next to you in a thunderstorm. (I haven't laughed so hard since I saw "Bowfinger.") --seed

Subject: RE: How can we make folk music more apealing
From: Mudjack
Date: 24 Sep 99 - 01:37 PM

Children in their earlist years have no inhibitions, want to sing and play music.Do the Kindergarten rythymn band exsist anymore? Remember the bells, triangles sticks whistles that formed those basic march around the class songs? Singing folk songs in grade school was a normal part of our class time(mid 1950's). I have to believe today's schools believe to much on the LEARN-LEARN-LEARN and have no time for the music. I recall that each classroom had autoharps and the teachers played them flat on the tables and we sang. I rememeber reachers would put on these giant phonograph records and we would listen to classical, show tunes,folk songs and anything that would strike an interest to our inquisitive minds.I'm not a mathematitical genius and my my english skills may be lacking, but looking back on time and not knowing what todays kids are doing in the class room, musically we were not deprived.
I addressed this school music topic before and one of our Mudcatters summed it up beautifully by suggesting we volunteer our singing and playing to our community's and schools so to educate the youngsters to the folk music. Nice idea, except I have friends that earn their livings doing just that. Bev and Jerry (mudcatters) have been doing this for years. I could'nt begin to relate to these kids like these folks do. I would be willing to try in an effort to educate and expose folk music to their ears and minds.
Today's youth seem to be far more into the electronic know how and need to have the flashy noise computer imaged everything in their world. Folks, I'm afraid that is the real world and we are in a fantasy world wanting to keep it like it use to be. I have notice that the younger these childre are, the more interested they are in the sounds that come from a real piano, guitar or banjo. Once they have exposure to the exciting flash,pop,cartoons, television, radio, the idea of boring folk music just losses it's appeal.IMHO
Mudjack

Subject: RE: How can we make folk music more apealing
From: GutBucketeer
Date: 24 Sep 99 - 12:50 PM

I am finding that there are actually many different circles of folk who like folk (I live in the DC area).

It may be that with all of the new ways to communicate, e-mail, etc. our singular "folk" community has broken into many smaller ones. There is bluegrass, shanty singing, old-time, irish sessions, etc. Once you are involved with them they all seem like a great group of folks. Personally, I can vouch for the openness and friendliness of all autoharpers and shanty singers. The two monthly shanty sings in D.C. especially are open to new comers.

If we are not careful, however, each can seem insular and offputting, especially when we focus on the boundaries of the genre. Is it, or isn't it traditional? That autoharp can't play bluegrass! The "right" way to sing that traditional song is...

I think all too often we are too oriented toward the great music, musicians, and events that happened in the past, or how obscure a reference we can make. Picture a newcomer just learning and singing a traditional tune they have learned when an old timer comes up and starts telling them of when they heard the original done by the Carter Family, or you should have been there in 1963.... Worse is when they say I remember when xxx played that tune. Now the correct way to play it is... Do you think the Newbies will come back???

The best way to expand the folk circles is to be aware of what Newbies are going through. Invite them in. Don't show off your knowledge but share your knowledge. And most important be Open, and help Mentor Newbies.

JAB

Subject: RE: How can we make folk music more apealing
From: Neil Lowe
Date: 24 Sep 99 - 09:11 AM

As I have three (relatively) young kids at home, (ages 9, 9, and 13), my approach is to try to change the world on a micro level, by exposing the kids to folk, blues, jazz, what-have-you, through example. They have gotten used to hearing their crazy dad go from Miles Davis, to Bob Dylan, to Memphis Slim, to Ralph Stanley in one sitting. And when they see me bring out and tune up the trusty six-string, to learn "Man of Constant Sorrow," or "Blind Fiddler," I can't help but think that it makes an impression on them, especially if I actually learn to play the tune.

Regards, Neil