popularisation and commercialisation of roots/trad

Subject: RE: popularisation and commercialisation of roots/trad
From: johncharles
Date: 18 Nov 11 - 02:38 PM

"how has modern jazz survived?it is not popular or commercial, how has modern art survived it is not popular."
Here is me thinking we were talking about;
"Is it inevitable that roots and trad music when it is popularised, becomes commercialised in the sense that its original form alters to cater for a popular taste, and thus metamorphises into something further from its roots?. "
john

Subject: RE: popularisation and commercialisation of roots/trad
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Nov 11 - 02:17 PM

how has modern jazz survived?it is not popular or commercial, how has modern art survived it is not popular.
your comment is simplistic and a sweeping generalisation.

Subject: RE: popularisation and commercialisation of roots/trad
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 18 Nov 11 - 02:16 PM

Howard,
I was just about to say exactly the same thing in answer to DickG's point.
I'd certainly also like to see DickM speak up and tell us his views precisely, as if we didn't know from previous threads.
Dick, if you personally don't like the success these people achieve there's nothing wrong with that. It's just that you're obviously in a very small minority. In the 60s I was a blatant purist, even did some very immature things in the name of that, but I eventually grew out of it, I think!

I sometimes get het up over the nepotistic media coverage of folk, but hell! there's some great music in there and at least some of them deserve their success. Somebody must be buying their albums and going to their concerts, and as someone has said it's introducing a helluva lot of young people to the music.

Subject: RE: popularisation and commercialisation of roots/trad
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Nov 11 - 02:13 PM

If something is not popular it won't survive; if it is popular it might survive; if it is popular and commercial it will survive.
not true.

Subject: RE: popularisation and commercialisation of roots/trad
From: r.padgett
Date: 18 Nov 11 - 02:02 PM

Traditional song can still survive if not main stream popular, tho!
Folk clubs have perpetuated these songs for the last 50 years or so!

Revivalist singers continue to re arrange both contemporary and trad songs largely thro their musical ability.

Just seen a fb thread where Bellowhead and Cliff Richard are commenting (dunt know what they said tho!)

However the Bellowhead phenomenon has taken folk music into pop music. Steeleye Span of course did so too!
I think this is an exceptional circumstance, aqmd good luck to 'em but does it do anything for "folk" music?

Subject: RE: popularisation and commercialisation of roots/trad
From: Elmore
Date: 18 Nov 11 - 12:57 PM

Yes

Subject: RE: popularisation and commercialisation of roots/trad
From: Vic Smith
Date: 18 Nov 11 - 12:08 PM

Wrong end of the stick again, I'm afraid. No-one is having a go at anyone; well, I'm certainly not.
It happens that Ewan MacColl was able to enjoy a good life style and standard of living at that time and a good proportion of his income came from royalties from some of his excellent compositions being taken up by very popular artists who shifted a lot of vinyl. He didn't keep this a secret; he saw to it that all his songs were properly documented and published so that royalties would be properly and easily paid. It has been pointed out that he didn't always like the way these artists treated his songs - and if you listen to some of these recordings, you can but agree with him.
And does anyone really believe that the houses in the better outer suburbs of London within walking distance of a railway station were not beyond the affordability of the person on an average working salary?

Subject: RE: popularisation and commercialisation of roots/trad
From: GUEST,erbert
Date: 18 Nov 11 - 11:49 AM

"Is it inevitable that roots and trad music when it is popularised, becomes commercialised in the sense that its original form alters to cater for a popular taste, and thus metamorphises into something further from its roots?."


ok.. dunno.. give up.. so tell us the correct answer ???


maybe try a 'multiple choice' for us next time..

Subject: RE: popularisation and commercialisation of roots/trad
From: GUEST,Big Nige
Date: 18 Nov 11 - 11:25 AM

QED Morris-ey, spot on, think the Kingston Trio/Tom Dooley situation
proves your right!

Subject: RE: popularisation and commercialisation of roots/trad
From: Morris-ey
Date: 18 Nov 11 - 11:06 AM

If something is not popular it won't survive; if it is popular it might survive; if it is popular and commercial it will survive.

Subject: RE: popularisation and commercialisation of roots/trad
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Nov 11 - 11:01 AM

BTNG wrote:-
"Despite his complaining, he seemed to make a fair bit of dosh from the royalties."

Well, the houses in the part of Beckenham where he lived in the 1960s were very expensive and the two cars that were always parked in the drive or outside were pretty swish. I lived about 50 yards away in a rented student flat for some of that time in the only run-down divided-into-flats house in the area.
JESUS CHRIST when will people stop having a go at Ewan, those houses were not very expensive at the time, my brother lived in one about 1969 and he was a doctor at Guys hospital,23 aldersmead road, Beckenham. Doctors in hospitals did not get paid anything exorbitant, Certainly nothing like politicians.

Subject: RE: popularisation and commercialisation of roots/trad
From: Vic Smith
Date: 18 Nov 11 - 10:49 AM

BTNG wrote:-
"Despite his complaining, he seemed to make a fair bit of dosh from the royalties."

Well, the houses in the part of Beckenham where he lived in the 1960s were very expensive and the two cars that were always parked in the drive or outside were pretty swish. I lived about 50 yards away in a rented student flat for some of that time in the only run-down divided-into-flats house in the area.

Subject: RE: popularisation and commercialisation of roots/trad
From: BTNG
Date: 18 Nov 11 - 10:39 AM

Ewan MacColl made no secret of the fact that he disliked every single cover version of his song, The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face.The song entered the pop mainstream when it was released by the Kingston Trio on its 1962 hit album New Frontier, and many many others had coverd the song, the most famous or infamous depending your point of view, was cover was that of Roberta Flack in 1972 Despite his complaining, he seemed to make a fair bit of dosh from the royalties.

Subject: RE: popularisation and commercialisation of roots/trad
From: Vic Smith
Date: 18 Nov 11 - 10:03 AM

Bryan Creer wrote:-
"I've heard that when Frank Proffitt heard The Kingston Trio's version of Tom Dooley, he went outside and cried. He thought they were taking the piss out of him."

I'd imagine that Bryan heard this when he came to hear Jeff Warner's show From The Mountains To The Sea - the show where Jeff tells the story of the amazing folk song collecting work done by his parents, Frank & Anne Warner. I do the sound inserts of the field recordings for this show so I have a copy of the script. In it Jeff quotes a 1959 letter from Frank Proffitt to Frank Warner:-

"I got a television set for the kids. One night I was a-setting looking at some foolishness when three fellers stepped out with guitar and banjer and went to singing Tom Dooley and they clowned and hip swinged...I began to feel sorty sick, like I'd lost a loved one. Tears came to my eyes, yes, I went out and.balled on the Ridge, looking toward old Wilkes [County] land of Tom Dooley...I looked up across the mountains and said, 'Lord; couldn't they leave me the good memories...?"

Alan Lomax had access to the songs collected by the Warners and he used a number of them in his 1947 book Folk Song USA including Tom Dooley; it was from this book that The Kingston Trio learned the song.
Elsewhere in the show, Jeff states:-

The story of the Dooley recording is long—and for another time—but Lomax' s publisher and the Kingston Trio's Capitol Records settled a suit out of court in 1962, and from that settlement, Frank Proffitt made enough to build a new house there in Watauga County.

So in the end it seems as though Frank Profitt did pretty well out of the commercialisation of a song that he learned from his dad and nobody claims that he actually wrote.

Subject: RE: popularisation and commercialisation of roots/trad
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 18 Nov 11 - 09:37 AM

Dick, I am not trying to personalise the discussion. I am simply pointing out that the way the music is performed by revival musicians is different from the way it was performed in the tradition. The way you and I perform the music has moved it away from its roots - perhaps not as far as Steeleye in one direction or Britten in another, but its just a matter of degree. As for "commercialisation", you are a professional musician, I am semi-pro - we both get paid to perform, we've both made albums which we hope to sell. Isn't that commericalism?

The folk revival has commercialised the music and moved it away from its roots, although I'm not sure that one is either a cause or effect of the other. Do you include this in your question (and implied criticism) or are you just referring to those interpretations which manage to break outside the small world of the folk revival?

Subject: RE: popularisation and commercialisation of roots/trad
From: johncharles
Date: 18 Nov 11 - 09:32 AM

I think someone must have altered the song "seven drunken nights" along the way, as the original words are not quite as catchy.
'Why, you old cuckold, blind cuckold,         can't you very well see?
         These are three milking-cows,         my mother sent O me.'
         'Heyday! Godzounds! Milking-cows with bridles and saddles on!
         the like was never known!'
         Old Wichet a cuckold went out, and a cuckold he came home.
(http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/eng/child/)
Interestingly "Radio Telefis Eireann refused to play the song, due to its "questionable" content (1967)"
john

Subject: RE: popularisation and commercialisation of roots/trad
From: r.padgett
Date: 18 Nov 11 - 09:30 AM

LOL

Very interesting thread gentlemen!

Songs from the tradition and contemporary folk songs will no doubt go through many stages of change and development. I am a words person although I am totally aware of the accent on musical arrangements which is favoured. Sometimes however the arrangements seem to take over (the words) and tunes are often changed due to key changes!

Folk song is folk song. Should they have their tunes changed to help commercialisation? and is this a good thing?
Ray

Subject: RE: popularisation and commercialisation of roots/trad
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Nov 11 - 09:19 AM

going back to tom dooley, i have heard a fairly close version to the original by frank warner which was until fairly recently available on rainbow quest on you tube, it was superior in my opinion to the kingston trio version.

Subject: RE: popularisation and commercialisation of roots/trad
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Nov 11 - 09:16 AM

john charles you can interpret it how you like, i am trying to have a discussion about change not preservation, and so far i have provided examples which [imo] illustrate both points of view.

Subject: RE: popularisation and commercialisation of roots/trad
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Nov 11 - 09:13 AM

The dubliners recorded seven drunken nights, AND IN MY OPINION this is an example of a song that became a hit, that was not altered significantly to be commercially successful,MERELY [PUTTING BOTH SIDES OF THE COIN.
If i remember correctly, shoals of herring[contemporary song , but traditional sounding reached number 8 in the hit parade in early sixties but was not altered significantly or in a commercial way from how it was presented on the radio ballads.

Subject: RE: popularisation and commercialisation of roots/trad
From: johncharles
Date: 18 Nov 11 - 09:12 AM

Spleen cringe
great version of spencer the rover
Love the bass
john

Subject: RE: popularisation and commercialisation of roots/trad
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 18 Nov 11 - 09:07 AM

GGS asks: "Is it inevitable that roots and trad music when it is popularised, becomes commercialised in the sense that its original form alters to cater for a popular taste, and thus metamorphises into something further from its roots?"

I reckon a lot of these songs were once popular. Then they because unpopular. In terms of wider culture they remain unpopular. Every now and again one slips through the net and becomes popular again. This is what we're trying to do with Spencer the Rover by the Woodbine & Ivy Band, which you can listen to on Soundcloud and judge for yourself: we'll plead guilty m'lud to trying to interest a non-folk audience as much as we're trying to interest a folk audience. Although it shares a tune with the Copper Family version, the arrangement - featuring a full band including bass, drums, guitar, pedal steel, trumpet, piano and a 12 piece choir - is contemporary folk rock (though it wears an abiding love of 1972 on its sleeve!).

Any arrangement that isn't purely about unaccompanied singing is a metamorphisis of some sort. Most of the old songs that are still sung have metamorphisised into a late 20th/early 21st century folk scene style of one variety or another - a 'sort of' commercialisation in that it's about making the song palatable to that audience. I think that unless we are conciously trying to mimic the approach of the old countrymen and women we know from field recordings, we will inevitably change how the songs are presented. And that's fine.

I guess the commercialisation comes into play if we are also trying to make some sort of a living from doing so - and I think this is only a (possible) problem if energy is expended trying to dream up a sure fire hit-making formula (a process usually doomed to failure), rather than simply doing what feels right. With The Woodbine & Ivy Band, above, many of the members have played rock, indie, jazz, country, improv and all sorts of different music, so those influences are inevitably going to seep in when they play a folk song.

Subject: RE: popularisation and commercialisation of roots/trad
From: johncharles
Date: 18 Nov 11 - 08:31 AM

The sense of the discussion being about preservation versus change is clear. It may not be present in the initial post but is certainly present in the subsequent discussion. It is disingenuous to deny previous discussions/arguments of a similar nature on Mudcat and to claim ambivalence about wether commercialisation is good or bad.
john

Subject: RE: popularisation and commercialisation of roots/trad
From: TheSnail
Date: 18 Nov 11 - 08:18 AM

Not a jibe, Big Nige, I have every reason to believe it is a true story.

Subject: RE: popularisation and commercialisation of roots/trad
From: GUEST,Big Nige
Date: 18 Nov 11 - 08:06 AM

If it were not for the Kingston Trio's version of Tom Dooley, we probably not be talikng about it today. They could sing and play well, as you say, so why the jibe about crying? don't get it.

Subject: RE: popularisation and commercialisation of roots/trad
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Nov 11 - 08:02 AM

john charles, this is not a folk preservation thread it is this:
Is it inevitable that roots and trad music when it is popularised, becomes commercialised in the sense that its original form alters to cater for a popular taste, and thus metamorphises into something further from its roots?
the above is not a folk preservation thread, in fact it is the opposite a discussion about change.

Subject: RE: popularisation and commercialisation of roots/trad
From: GUEST,Big Nige
Date: 18 Nov 11 - 07:59 AM

Why would he think that? and Bert (above) I think you've proved my point.

Subject: RE: popularisation and commercialisation of roots/trad
From: johncharles
Date: 18 Nov 11 - 07:59 AM

Dear Snail
Just listened to Tom Dooley by the Kingston trio on you tube. I can see why Mr Proffitt might want to cry.
john

Subject: RE: popularisation and commercialisation of roots/trad
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Nov 11 - 07:58 AM

Howard,
I do not claim that my music is authentic, and I am sure steeleye span were not claiming their music was authentic, I am talking about the transformation of music FROM ITS ROOTS, in order for it to be commercial.
please do not personalise the issue,[my version of burlingtin fair is not relevant] you made an inaccurate claim earlier in the discussion about trad and roots music never being popularised, now you have put one of my videos up, in an attempt to personalise the discussion.
my recording of burlinton fair has not been a commercial hit unlike the versions i put up of allaround my hat[uk top ten] and tom dooley a hit version recorded in 1958 by The Kingston Trio. This version was a multi-format hit, reaching #1 in Billboard, the Billboard R&B listing, and appearing in the Cashbox country music top 20.
I do not consider my version of burlington fair to be either authentic or commercial.

Subject: RE: popularisation and commercialisation of roots/trad
From: TheSnail
Date: 18 Nov 11 - 07:53 AM

I've heard tha when Frank Proffitt heard The Kingston Trio's version of Tom Dooley, he went outside and cried. He thought they were taking the piss out of him.

Subject: RE: popularisation and commercialisation of roots/trad
From: johncharles
Date: 18 Nov 11 - 07:51 AM

There have been a number of these folk preservation threads recently.
The extreme defensiveness of some of the purists does nothing to serve their cause, rather it emphasises their insularity, and causes friction with the more liberal approach to music most people seem to have.
I have listened to a lot of "traditional" music recently and you know what; some of it is really not very good and could only benefit from a new interpretation by someone who could actually play and sing well.
Controversial I know, but go and listen to some of the archived material. As has been said earlier the original will always be there.
john

Subject: RE: popularisation and commercialisation of roots/trad
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Nov 11 - 07:44 AM

who is talking about objecting?
here is another example, this version was a mega seller.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5SyTVrxFjc&feature=related
very differnt from frank proffits version, very different from its roots

Subject: RE: popularisation and commercialisation of roots/trad
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 18 Nov 11 - 07:04 AM

The way folk songs and tunes are treated by folk revival musicians is in most cases very different from the way they were originally performed in their "roots" environment. Do you object to this as well, or is it just "tin pan alley" versions?

Is this any more "authentic" than Steeleye Span, or Peter Pears for that matter?

Subject: RE: popularisation and commercialisation of roots/trad
From: GUEST,BIg Nige
Date: 18 Nov 11 - 07:04 AM

Stallion, I think it was written by the late Fred Wedlock, not 100% about that but he certainly used to sing it.

Subject: RE: popularisation and commercialisation of roots/trad
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 18 Nov 11 - 07:03 AM

A folk song is a folk song. It doesn't stop being one when played on unexpected instruments, given a different arrangement or sung in a non-approved non-folk voice. For that matter, I'm not convinced that most of the stuff that passes for authentic and rootsy on the folk scene is anything of the sort - we're just conditioned by familiarity to make that assumption.

Subject: RE: popularisation and commercialisation of roots/trad
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Nov 11 - 06:54 AM

Define "roots."

Define "golden age."

Subject: RE: popularisation and commercialisation of roots/trad
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Nov 11 - 06:52 AM

Good Jesus!

Subject: RE: popularisation and commercialisation of roots/trad
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Nov 11 - 06:30 AM

we are not talking about good or bad , but whether when something is taken away from its roots via commercialisation or treatment it is no longer roots music.
peter pears singing waly waly, yes its still waly waly but it aint roots music, because its treatment has turned it away from its roots.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gHTw9XjKMc

Subject: RE: popularisation and commercialisation of roots/trad
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Nov 11 - 08:52 PM

Isn't it a good thing that younger people are singing a trad type song?

Subject: RE: popularisation and commercialisation of roots/trad
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 17 Nov 11 - 08:08 PM

Wotthehell does "good" have to do with it?

Subject: RE: popularisation and commercialisation of roots/trad
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Nov 11 - 07:06 PM

Listen to this. More people know the words than ya can shake a stick at.

And that's what I mean. These kids/young adults in the audience are singing their music, our music. Ain't that a good thing?

Subject: RE: popularisation and commercialisation of roots/trad
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Nov 11 - 06:51 PM

When any music stops 'speaking' to people it loses its currency and begins to disappear. ANY music, not just folk or roots music. I know people who are still in love with AC/DC, Cream, etc. But on a greater scale, while some of their stuff is still great, we can see that much of it was and is basically shite. People could sit around and make lists about the 100 greatest songs of the 20th Century. I've seen some of those lists and I like maybe 10% of the stuff that's listed, whether that be in the area of folk or rock or hard rock or bebop or big band or blues or, or, or.

Thin Lizzy's WitJ was pretty good, but my hearing of it was informed by the versions I listened to or played in the 1960's, and while it's certainly different, it is as Will Fly said still WitJ.

Electric instruments are not going to be uninvented. I'm happy that the songs themselves are still being sung/done, and even if the arrangements break with tradition, well, that's just the way it is. Sometimes commercialism results in people being exposed to music they would never have heard in any other way.

PP and M were responsible for many traditional songs being kept alive, as were the Kingston Trio, Limeliters and some others. Judy Collins and Joan Baez have both done trad songs in 'updated' forms. They made the songs accessible to people and for some that resulted in them delving into song origins and history.

However, that said, I was shocked and somewhat horrified to hear/see Barbara Ann being used in a barbeque sauce TV commercial.

Bar bar bar bar barbeque
Bar bar bar bar barbeque
etc

My remark at the time was "Is nothing sacred anymore?"

IMO

Subject: RE: popularisation and commercialisation of roots/trad
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 17 Nov 11 - 05:59 PM

Steve-
Folk music can be (and has been) defined as the musical expression of a cultural group or society.The "original form" catered to the popular taste of that particular society. Commercialization generally involves changing it to cater to the taste of a more general population, outside of that society. If it's your culture's music, you don't think of it as folk music, it's just music.

Subject: RE: popularisation and commercialisation of roots/trad
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 17 Nov 11 - 05:30 PM

GSS, obviously Richard Hawley credits Hughie Jones as the songwriter of Ellan Vannin on his False Lights From the Land e.p. where he featured this song along with a version of Shallow Brown. All the necessary clearances and so on will have been sorted out prior to release via MCPS, and to suggest otherwise is just silly. And I know it's not a traditional song! I just used it as a recent example of a song that's become part of the folk 'canon' being reinterpreted in a different style...

I could equally have pointed towards Nick Cave singing the Lichtboy's Lassie. Or Shelagh McDonald's wonderfully funky Dowie Dens of Yarrow.

Subject: RE: popularisation and commercialisation of roots/trad
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 17 Nov 11 - 05:18 PM

Whiskey in the Jar in its well-known form owes its great popularity and longevity to having been printed endlessly by just about every 19thc printer in every town. Even the likely original 'Patrick Flemming' is only known from an 18thc broadside.

Subject: RE: popularisation and commercialisation of roots/trad
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 17 Nov 11 - 05:10 PM

The song (or theme) Farewell she/he has been traced back to a 17th century pop song which over the centuries has ben twisted and turned by many broadside hacks for commercial gain. Another one going back to its roots.

Subject: RE: popularisation and commercialisation of roots/trad
From: Will Fly
Date: 17 Nov 11 - 05:08 PM

Dick - I most certainly get the point you're making - and I repeat mine, which you don't seem to see:

It doesn't matter what you do to any music by way of style or interpretation. Everything exists side by side. If I rock up a traditional ballad with drums, bass, electric guitars and a reggae rhythm, it doesn't alter the fact that the original exists. You're not moving the music away from its roots so that it becomes obscured - you're adding another dimension to it. You're implying that a "commercial" version somehow changes the nature of the original - which, of course, it can't do. If you then want to call the commercial version of the tune "reggae" (for example), then do so.

Is "Whisky In The Jar" somehow not what it was because Thin Lizzie gave it a kick up the arse? Of course it is - it's "Whisky In The Jar".

Subject: RE: popularisation and commercialisation of roots/trad
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 17 Nov 11 - 05:06 PM

Yes, I think commercializing takes it further from its roots. Led Zeppelin's "Whole Lotta Love" was based on a Willie Dixon tune and it certainly went on to become a foundation stone of hard rock and metal. T.Rex's "Jeepster" is a reworking of Howlin' Wolf's "You'll Be Mine." "Jeepster" was certainly a foundation stone for glitter rock and punk.

So, yeah, commercializing takes it out of the realm of roots music. Whether or not it does a disservice to roots is up to the listener. Personally, I say no. I've also written songs that sound rootsy but actually swiped riffs and melodies from modern rock songs. Works both ways.

Often, someone who is a big fan of a certain rock band read about this roots influence on them and starts to listen to that influence and becomes a fan of that too. So, I see nothing wrong with commercializing the stuff as long as you tip your cap to the giant shoulders upon which you stood.

Subject: RE: popularisation and commercialisation of roots/trad
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 17 Nov 11 - 05:02 PM

Dick,
You gave 'All Round my hat' as an example. This is a popular song from the early nineteenth century. I can show you the sheet music! By popularising it once again it is going back to its roots!

Subject: RE: popularisation and commercialisation of roots/trad
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Nov 11 - 04:59 PM

richard hawley cannot even be bothers to check properly, it took me 5 minutes of my time to confirm it was written by hughie jones.
will, you dont get my point it is no longer roots music if its nature/style gets changed to pander to popular/hit parade/tin pan alley taste, by having to hange to be commercially succesful its nature changes it is no longer what it was.
it has absolutely nothing to do with what i like or dont like