BS: Jingoism or Commemoration

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 09:38 PM

Dave the Gnome - 11 Dec 15 - 04:52 PM

"You can't win, Dave."

Do you know why, on this particular subject you can't win Gnome, Dave, Raggy; Musktwat; Jom, Shaw? Because you are arguing from ignorance , self-confessed ignorance at that - that is why you can't win. Get over it - move on talk about beer, talk about making cheese, talk about whatever useless crap that fill your lives, but whatever you do leave this one alone because over the course of the last two years you have all proved conclusively that you know S.F.A. about it and the lot of you are embarrassing yourselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 09:30 PM

"What do YOU bring to the party that no one else has."

Above question asked by an anonymous GUEST of Keith A. I will answer - a damn sight better knowledge of the subject under discussion than you - good enough?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 06:00 PM

It's not just on Mudcat. This is wonderful -

When you become a smart trolls personal enemy

Enjoy.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 05:34 PM

Now, come on Greg, that is unfair. Let the lad answer for himself. It will be far more informative.

See Keith - I criticise Greg as well :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 05:21 PM

Perhaps I can facilitate:

Keith.
What is your criteria for an 'eminent historian'?

Left wing, right wing, sold in High Street bookshops, alive, published [sic] on popular websites, mainstream, current, uses the right toothpaste...

How many historians, worldwide, meet that criteria?

Only those that agree with the Professor's skewed view of reality.

What percentage of their works have you read?

None.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 04:52 PM

You can't win, Dave. You do not know the rules and Keith will never tell you for fear of tying himself down to something he may regret later. Tying Keith down on what constitutes an historian is like trying to push butter up a porcupines arse with hot needle. On top of which, even if you did, he would never respond to what percentage of historians matching his secret criteria he has actualy read because he has no idea how many there are.

Best thing all round is either take Raggys's stance and wind him up or Musket's ploy of pointing out what Keith is, in no uncertain terms, at every opportunity. Alternatively you could just point out the errors in his logic which gets to him so much that he has no response but to ignore it, abuse you, or change the subject. Look, just watch what happens next.

Keith.
What is your criteria for an 'eminent historian'?
How many historians, worldwide, meet that criteria?
What percentage of their works have you read?

I have got 2 to 1 at Ladbrookes on the response...

:-D

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 04:32 PM

The Research Excellence Framework (REF) is the new system for assessing the quality of research in UK higher education institutions.
As both are independent historians not higher education institutions, why would you expect them to be referenced Dave?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 04:25 PM

Nigel Jones,
His first book The War Walk: A Journey along the Western Front (1983) was inspired by his elderly father, Frank Jones (1890-1970), a Great War veteran. For it, he walked along the trench lines of the Western front, interviewing more than 30 veterans of the conflict. Among these was the German author and war hero Ernst Jünger.

His stay with Jünger inspired his second book Hitler's Heralds: the story of the Freikorps 1918-1923.(1987. Reissued in 2004 as A Brief History of the birth of the Nazis).

His third book was inspired by the discovery in 1988 of an archive of letters, papers and manuscripts of the English novelist and playwright Patrick Hamilton (1904-1962) which were bequeathed to him by Hamilton's sister-in-law Aileen Hamilton and used in his biography of Hamilton Through a Glass Darkly (1990 : reissued 2008).

In 1991 Jones moved to Vienna, Austria, where he joined the Austrian Broadcasting Corporation (ORF) and broadcast worldwide on Radio Austria International. It was at this time that his only stage play, End of the Night based on the life of French novelist Louis-Ferdinand Celine, was produced at Brighton's Pavilion Theatre in November 1991.

Returning to England in 1995, he worked as a freelance journalist for The Guardian and Spectator while writing his biography of the poet Rupert Brooke, Life, Death and Myth (1999).

He was deputy editor of History Today magazine (1999-2000) and Reviews editor of BBC History Magazine (2000-2003).

His next book was a brief life of Britain's Fascist leader, Sir Oswald Mosley Mosley published by Haus in 2004.

His recent publications include a history of the plots to assassinate Hitler Countdown to Valkyrie published by Frontline Books in January 2009, and Tower: An Epic History of the Tower of London published by Hutchinson in 2011 and to be released in the U.S. in 2012 by St. Martin's Press.

He is an historian and a prolific writer of histories.
The BBC, Telegraph, Guardian and other historians say he is an historian.

Some bloke called Dave says he is not on some register.
Should we ignore everything else Dave?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 04:07 PM

Nigel H. Jones (is this the Nigel Jones to whom you refer?) has no academic appointment in any institution submitted to REF2014.

Thought you would start with Pennel, Pennel is an academic at the University of Exeter, submitted to REF 2014. But I am still working on which publications are hers.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 03:15 PM

What gives YOU the right Keith to dictate which histories are valid or invalid. What do YOU bring to the party that no one else has. It is arrogance to the extreme to pontificate as you do. So just what is your AUTHORITY.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 02:49 PM

The BBC puts Hastings in its list of leading ten WW1 historians.
He has presented historical documentaries for the BBC.
In 2012 he was awarded the US$100,000 Pritzker Military Library Literature Award, a lifetime achievement award for military writing, which includes an honorarium, citation and medallion, sponsored by the Chicago-based Tawani Foundation.
Hastings is a Fellow of the Royal Society of Literature, and the Royal Historical Society.

Opinion of another historian Nigel Jones.
" Hastings's recent massive volumes on his specialist subject, the Second World War, have shown why his position as Britain's leading military historian is now unassailable. They demonstrate not only his always formidable grasp of the nuts and bolts of logistics and strategy and an authoritative narrative sweep, but a new humane note of empathy not always present in military history, or indeed in his early works.
In this enormously impressive new book, Hastings effortlessly masters the complex lead-up to and opening weeks of the First World War. As a historian,"

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 02:15 PM

Lets start with Hastings. Hastings has no academic appointment in any institution submitted to REF2014.

More later

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 02:15 PM

GUEST - 11 Dec 15 - 11:08 AM

"What is your AUTHORITY Keith for accepting some historians as valid and dismissing other historians as invalid."

AUTHORITY or CRITERIA GHOST?

1954 - 1958 - Material released under the 50 year rule
1984 - 1989 - Material released under the 70 year rule
2014 - 2018 - Material released under the 100 year rule

Material translated and released from foreign sources - for stuff from the German side that didn't happen until 1972, from the Russians it didn't happen until the 1990s. Only in the last two/three years have we found out exactly how British soldiers on the first day of the battle of the Somme suddenly found themselves with German troops at their backs occupying ground that they thought they had just taken.

So anyone writing about the First World War before 1969 only had a partial view of it - and that includes the writings of David Lloyd George. The subject matter is vast so for information reading something by someone who has specialised in the period gives you far more than say someone who wants to make a quick few quid and who just makes up shit in order to provoke controversy as a publicity stunt (Talking about Alan Clark and his book "The Donkeys" here)

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 01:11 PM

Greg, just on this thread you could have read Max Boot, Catriona Pennel, Margaret Macmillan, Max Hastings, Gary Sheffield, Dan Todman, and the OU History Faculty who provided the script for Paxman.
Many more on previous threads.

Guest, you do not become an historian just by saying stuff about history.
I have rejected no historian.

Unless and until one of you can find an historian who still believes that old shit you cling to, you have nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 11:08 AM

What is your AUTHORITY Keith for accepting some historians as valid and dismissing other historians as invalid.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 10:15 AM

the findings of the historians

What findings of which historians, Professor?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 09:29 AM

Relevance?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 09:24 AM

Keith, what you didn't know is that I come from Hertford too, although I have not lived there for a while.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 09:04 AM

Guest Dave, it is some time since my full name has been used.
Had you committed it to memory? Were you hoping to find some dirt on me?

Have you remembered the names of any of those historians yet?
You said, "we certainly do have examples above of historians who don't say this."
Who are they then Dave?
Perhaps when you said "above" you meant in heaven. I have acknowledged that there used to be some, but not any more.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 06:42 AM

You are not the first and I don't think you will be the last to spot the similarity, Guest. I think they would have had a field day if years-long forum arguments had existed then :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 06:36 AM

Why did I think that this was relevant?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 05:38 AM

Does he Dave? That's interesting! Wonder if he uses the Mudcat as a reference for potential clients? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 05:36 AM

Keith,

I am surprised that someone who advertises themselves as a private tutor in Maths and Science should say that. Proof is a concept in mathematical logic. Science advances by the formulation of hypotheses which can be falsified. Newton's theory of gravity is such a hypothesis, it can be falsified in extreme conditions, such as high accelerations (relativity) and maybe low accelerations (MOND). But there is, and can never be, an absolute proof, and nor is one required.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 05:35 AM

My attackers reject the findings of the historians

I haven't rejected the findings of historians. I guess I must not be one of your attackers. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Colin
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 05:34 AM

Oh Historians have been found, however YOU have dismissed each and every one of them for a whole multitude of reasons, left wing, right wing, not sold in High Street bookshops, only published on subversive websites, not mainstream, not current, uses the wrong toothpaste perhaps. Where YOU get the AUTHORITY to dismiss the work of any historian is open to conjecture. Having said all that as you profess to know so much about the subject why don't you write a book about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 05:26 AM

Dance away Dave, but no-one can or will find an historian who contradicts all the others.
I formed my views by reading history.
My attackers reject the findings of the historians believing they somehow know better.
Their vast conceit and delusion is laughable.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 05:20 AM

Nah, that last line just doesn't work. Go hang yourself is both dated and sounds distinctly American. The historical aspect I can understand but why omit the standard English 'and'? May I suggest 'Go and fuck yourself' as an alternative? Still wouldn't work but it would sound better.

I don't understand the bit about Pete, sorry. I know and have always said that evolution is a theory and have never referred to it as a law. For the life of me I can't understand what you are on about.

On the 'the historians' bit, I am not sure if you are qualified to say something is beyond reasonable doubt. Shouldn't that be the prerogative of '12 good men and true' or some such? Anyway, funny thing is I agree that 'the historians' agree with you. I have always said as much. What is in doubt is what is meant by 'the historians'. You have been singularly reticent on the question of how many historians, world wide, meet your criteria. Do you not know? It would be interesting to all concerned to see what percentage of them you have studied. At a guess, what do you think it is? Half of them? A quarter? 10%? 1%? If you do not even know that how can it be that you are so sure that they all agree with you? Still, if nothing else, it keeps you off the streets I suppose.

Very interesting to note that you are floundering all over the place with your points and introducing a fair bit of poorly thought out abuse. It was you that suggested that abuse is only used in the absence of reasoned argument wasn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 04:48 AM

Guest Dave, whatever the thread title, we have all been discussing history for weeks now, except DtG obviously.

DtG, absolute proof is a requirement in Science. That is why evolution is referred to as a theory and not a law.
You are Pete's natural ally. You should be out there arguing his case that it is not and can not be proven.

In human affairs absolute proof is rarely possible.
You can be hanged if the case against you is just proven beyond reasonable doubt.

It is beyond reasonable doubt that if a group of historians existed, or even just one, churning out work that contradicted all those prominent historians quoted here, then we would have come across it or at least some reference to it.
The fact that none of us have proves beyond reasonable doubt that there is no such group.

Jump and gyrate on your pin Dave, but it is proven beyond reasonable doubt that the historians agree on those three points.
Go hang yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 02:55 AM

What, teribums, and deprive you of your source of endless fun? Not likely! No matter what you think of us we would not treat the disadvantaged so badly :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 05:52 PM

Nicely done boys you've just shown yourselves to be the Trolls that you undoubtedly are. Now toddle off and talk about beer.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 05:11 PM

See how grown ups act in the face of criticism. I think Jim is away but I am sure he will be pretty much the same. Accepted, Musket.

Yes, Dave, it does stand for the obvious. Amazing how many treat it so seriously isn't it :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 04:09 PM

By the way, what does BS stand for? Is it the obvious?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 04:06 PM

Dave, Yes you're probably correct.

In my defence have you ever had a scab you can't help picking at. That's how I feel about Keith, he's a nasty deceitful, lying scab and I can't help but pick at it.

Oh ............ I've done it again haven't I!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 04:04 PM

Keith says:

"But history is the discussion Dave!"

Except that it isn't. Unless I am very much mistaken the threat title is:

"BS: Jingoism or Commemoration"

Started by Raggytash and referring to the Remembrance day events in the present day. So history is at best tangential.

You would have had a stronger case had you made this statement on the Churchill thread, although even there history is only relevant in so far as there is any evidence as to whether Churchill was a thieving cheapskate or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 03:37 PM

You never find fault with Jim or Rag or the Guest Muskets.

Of course I have. I have had words with both Jim and Musket on a few occasions. I will do again if you like.

Jim - You are too fixed in your ways.

Musket - You use too much abuse.

Raggy - You purposely wind Keith up too much.

Now, let us see if they actualy take that as a personal sleight and drone on and on at every opportunity for years on end or whether they behave like adults, take it on board and act on it or just ignore it shall we?

All histories in the last twenty years, confirm my three points.

But you have not read all histories written in the last 20 years, dear Keithy, dear Keithy.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 03:22 PM

Missed by a mile, teribums. Hope you were not in charge of any guns when you were were playing with boats. Still, it's nice to see you resorting to abuse, poor as it is, like your mate says no one should do. What is it he says? Shows lack of reasoned arguments? I think you need to go and have a lie down again :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 03:21 PM

Dave,
What am I doing here? Pointing out how silly these discussions can get

No. You never find fault with Jim or Rag or the Guest Muskets.
I posted to the Churchill thread and you turned up there today making the same sort of hair splitting criticisms, just of me.

'All histories of the last twenty years any of us has been able to quote confirm my three points.'
That is because,
'All histories any of us has read or is aware of, in the last twenty years, confirm my three points.'
That is because,
'All histories in the last twenty years, confirm my three points.'

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 02:42 PM

Thhhh...... Tthhhhh........ Ttthhhhhiiiiiiiii...

No. No use. Too many targets for one observation.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 02:28 PM

That assessment of mine was correct - you really are that bone thick - but of course you were a union activist weren't you - capable of being fed any line, pointed in the right direction and then sent out to lie your back teeth off, make the bullets and get some other poor sod to fire them.

You have absolutely nothing to say, you are a complete and utter joke.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 01:27 PM

Keith. Tell me again, do all historians agree with you? No cigar to you for the pretty feeble abuse either. What am I doing here? Pointing out how silly these discussions can get and how daft some of the contributors are. Believe it or not, there are those who think I am a bone thick troublemaker, yet they still take the time to argue with me. How silly is that ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 01:26 PM

Well, teribums, I may not know WW1 history but I do know quite a bit about Poland and a lot about my family. They were from Byalistok, near the borders of Belarus, Lithuania, the Ukraine and Kalingrad. In its history both Poland and Bialystok have been invaded and ruled by various other countries but in all that time, they both still existed. My family still may or may not have left Poland. or whatever it may or may not have been called at the time.

You are making the same assumption as you have in the other posts, that something that did not happen would have, None of this is fact as it did not happen. You will note that I said WW2 may not have happened. Had WW1 not panned out the way it did so many things may or may not have happened that my Gradfather may or may not not have left Russia, my Grandmother may or may not have married someone else and my Dad may or may not not have been born. It is all fantasy. It never happened. And if that is your best shot at abuse you are still firing blanks :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 11:12 AM

But I am not arguing about history, HiLo.

But history is the discussion Dave!
All you do is try to provoke off-issue arguments.
If you have no actual contribution to make, what are you doing here?
You are just a trouble maker.

You have not caused any significant "dilution" of anything. Just endless hair splitting and nit picking and distractions from the actual issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 11:07 AM

"Another possible result had Britain remained neutral in WW1 is that WW2 may not have happened. My Dad would not have left Poland."

See anything monstrously wrong with that Gnome? Ah sod it I'd hate to see you struggle, but it is blindingly obvious -

Had Britain stayed out of WWI then there would never have been a Poland for your Dad to leave - By God are you bone thick or what???

What facts of mine are wrong Gnome?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 11:01 AM

Why would you spend time arguing over things about which you clearly know nothing.

But I am not arguing about history, HiLo. That is what I have said I know very little about. I have never disputed any of Keith's historical points, just his assertion that all historians agree with him. That just does not make sense to me when it is obvious the no one is familiar with the work of all historians. How much of this thread or the past ones have you read?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 10:51 AM

You more than most pin dancer.

Not in recent times, teribums. Not got riled on here since I realised that there was no one worth getting riled over :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 10:44 AM

So you know little history, you argue for the sake of arguing and that is a win win situation. Why would you spend time arguing over things about which you clearly know nothing. Very odd reasoning..but...

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 10:31 AM

I said you don't know much history and you argue for the sake of arguing.

I beat you too it. I said years ago that I know little about the subject in hand. I do not believe I argue for the sake of arguing but, even if it was so, I do not believe there is anything wrong with that. However, my arguments have consistently been ones that challenge the rigid assertions made by some people and, so far, I have managed to get at least one to dilute their statements. I consider that a win/win situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 10:26 AM

Another possible result had Britain remained neutral in WW1 is that WW2 may not have happened. My Dad would not have left Poland. You would have no one to provide your endless amusement and you would be stuck with playing soldiers. But WW2 did happen. I stated this morning that I would fart the Marseillaise in E flat. I haven't yet. Trouble is with your 'facts', teribums, is that none of them did actually happen did they? You are filling in the gaps with what you believe would happen and missing the vital point that if anything can go wrong, it will.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 10:21 AM

I did none of the above..I said you don't know much history and you argue for the sake of arguing.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 10:17 AM

"It does surprise how that people on here get so heated about inconsequential matters though."

You more than most pin dancer.