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HELP with UK Music Licencing problem?
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HELP with UK Music Licencing problem? |
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Subject: RE: HELP with UK Music Licencing problem? From: GUEST,John Hill Date: 02 Jan 01 - 12:48 PM Where does that leave the situation of a radio in a shop. Is it public entertainment?... no fee is charged on entry.. nor are there any performers. I assist in a charity shop sometimes.. and someone said a licence is required to play the radio. (they have Classic FM on). Is that true? |
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Subject: RE: HELP with UK Music Licencing problem? From: The Shambles Date: 02 Jan 01 - 09:20 AM This is the law as set out in the Dudley website, linked above.
An entertainments licence is required for any public dancing or music or any other, similar public entertainment. An entertainments licence is also required for an entertainment consisting of and including any public contest, exhibition or display of boxing, wrestling, judo, karate or any similar sport.
Does not the section that I have printed in bold specify the common definition of a public entertainment? So if a session is not publicly advertised or no fee is given or charged (and providing of course that nobody dances), by this definition the session is not a public entertainment? Therefore does not need a licence?
Or is that a too simple reading of it?
What would be the process the local council would have to go through, assuming that they wanted to pursue the matter, if a landlord continued with a session without an entertainment licence? Would they have to prove that the session was a public entertainment? Has this definition ever been tested in court?
The question I keep asking myself is what or whose interests and welfare are supposed to be being protected by stretching this interpretation of this law to cover sessions? Maybe Oliver Cromwell would indeed be the one to ask? |
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Subject: RE: HELP with UK Music Licencing problem? From: The Shambles Date: 02 Jan 01 - 09:19 AM This is the law as set out in the Dudley website, linked above.
"An entertainments licence is required for any public dancing or music or any other, similar public entertainment. An entertainments licence is also required for an entertainment consisting of and including any public contest, exhibition or display of boxing, wrestling, judo, karate or any similar sport.
Does not the section that I have printed in bold specify the common definition of a public entertainment? So if a session is not publicly advertised or no fee is given or charged (and providing of course that nobody dances), by this definition the session is not a public entertainment? Therefore does not need a licence?
Or is that a too simple reading of it?
What would be the process the local council would have to go through, assuming that they wanted to pursue the matter, if a landlord continued with a session without an entertainment licence? Would they have to prove that the session was a public entertainment? Has this definition ever been tested in court?
The question I keep asking myself is what or whose interests and welfare are supposed to be being protected by stretching this interpretation of this law to cover sessions? Maybe Oliver Cromwell would indeed be the one to ask? |
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Subject: RE: HELP with UK Music Licencing problem? From: GUEST,John Hil Date: 02 Jan 01 - 07:45 AM i know this is side tracking a bit ... but does anyone know if you need any sort of licence to play a radio in a shop? |
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Subject: RE: HELP with UK Music Licencing problem? From: Richard Bridge Date: 01 Jan 01 - 06:11 PM I am a copyright lawyer, but this is not solicitor-client advice (for that, there are fees, and what our law society calls a "client care" letter (translation, contractual terms of business)). THere are two issues. THe first is that of a public perfomance licence, and the law is correctly set out on the Dudley webiste at the link given above. THe second is the PRS - the performing right in the music, administered by the performing right society. perfomring the music in public is an act restricted by copyright, and don't bother trying to be clever about "public". THe premises need a PRS licence, because most stuff done in folk clubs is NOT public domain. THey probably have one to cover the juke box anyway, but check. If in doubt, get someone else from a different area to teplephone the PRS and tell them they are thinking of starting a folk club and ask for advice. If still in doubt get a member of the musicians' union to ring the MU and say he's been offered a gig at a folk club and ask whether he has a PRS problem if he does a cover of another composer's music. |
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Subject: RE: HELP with UK Music Licencing problem? From: Bernard Date: 01 Jan 01 - 05:51 PM The PRS have no jurisdiction over folk clubs. Sounds as if the Landlord in question just wanted his room back - they can be devious swines!! Either that, or he had a jukebox he wasn't paying his whack for! |
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Subject: RE: HELP with UK Music Licencing problem? From: selby Date: 01 Jan 01 - 09:09 AM Although I havn't got an answer a folk club I was involved with was asked to leave by a landlord as we where breaking performing rights law's. He had recieved a letter on headed note paper demanding a fee as they had got hold of our publicity. He gave them my name and address as the organiser and I spent some weeks worrying as it was a lot of money, in the end I heard nothing Keith |
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Subject: RE: HELP with UK Music Licencing problem? From: The Shambles Date: 01 Jan 01 - 07:19 AM The interpretation of a number of musicians playing informally in a pub as the pub providing public entertainment, and thus requiring a licence, poses a number of questions. If a pub provides a dart board or a pool table, does that mean that an entertainment licence is required, especially in the cases where teams of players visit for competitions? An audience may be attracted but in essence the entertainment is provided by and for the participants. Is this not exactly the same as a session? |
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Subject: RE: HELP with UK Music Licencing problem? From: vindelis Date: 31 Dec 00 - 08:43 PM What happened prior to 1982? As this appears to be when the current law came in to being. It does seem the sort of thing that Oliver Cromwell would have had a hand in. |
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Subject: RE: HELP with UK Music Licencing problem? From: The Shambles Date: 31 Dec 00 - 08:14 PM I think that is the point exactly. Ill feeling exists, for example, from a nearby licenced pub. They feel upset that they are paying for a licence and complain. This law is then used, completly wrongly in my opinion and creates even more bad feeling. The local authority should make a distinction between paid entertainment and participation. |
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Subject: RE: HELP with UK Music Licencing problem? From: Bernard Date: 31 Dec 00 - 04:09 PM The one thing to remember is it is policed by complaint. If nobody complains, then nobody is prosecuted. Obviously it is a bit risky, but in my experience nobody is prosecuted on the first complaint, anyway - the Police visit the licensee and explain that 'a complaint has been made, so please toe the line...' My 'experience' goes back over thirty years, during which time nobody was prosecuted, although three licensees were given friendly warnings. There was an exception, however - one pub had a next door neighbour with a grudge, and the Environmental Health department were called in to take audio level readings. Although it never came to a prosecution, the ill feeling killed off the sessions. Hope that helps... |
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Subject: RE: HELP with UK Music Licencing problem? From: Jon Freeman Date: 31 Dec 00 - 09:05 AM Shambles, in answer to your original question: Just try it and see what happens. It seems that some parts of the UK are a lot less flexible than others on this law. I was in Norwich last week and I gathered that sessions are moving from pub to pub and are pretty well being driven underground because of the situation over there. I do not know what the reasoning behind this law is but it seems ridiculous to me. I have never known a group of folk players get drunk and start fights in a pub... Jon |
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Subject: RE: HELP with UK Music Licencing problem? From: The Shambles Date: 31 Dec 00 - 08:26 AM It would seem that it is a matter of interpretation. Some sensible councils, see it as participation. For others if two fiddles are playing badly, it is not entertainment. If three fiddles are playing badly, it is entertainment and then needs a licence?
The problem for publicans is that in order to obtain the licence, an inspection has to be made. This could involve expensive improvements. The irony being that on nights when there are no entertainments, the place could squeeze in as many folk as they want, without any inprovements, whether this was safe or not. Not a very satisfactory state of afairs....... |
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Subject: RE: HELP with UK Music Licencing problem? From: SueH Date: 12 Dec 00 - 08:26 AM You need a public entertainments licence if more than 2 people are going to perform, paid or unpaid. Pubs have to apply for these just as any other venue does. I believe changes in the conditions for public entertainment are being considered. Ely Folk Club has just closed after 10 years, because they have had to move velkues several times over the past few years & have not managed to find anywhere appropriate. One of the biggest problems seems to be that local councils are at liberty to interpret the law as they wish, & also to determine their own scale of charges - although I believe that the charges are only supposed to cover costs, not make a profit - and in some cases the charges are prohibitive. SueH |
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Subject: RE: HELP with UK Music Licencing problem? From: Long Firm Freddie (at work) Date: 12 Dec 00 - 08:12 AM This is how one local authority sees it: LFF Link fixed - JoeClone |
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Subject: RE: HELP with UK Music Licencing problem? From: manitas_at_work Date: 12 Dec 00 - 08:06 AM I seem to recall that associate membership of EFDSS cured all problems with the PRS. MCPS shouldn't come into it with live music. |
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Subject: RE: HELP with UK Music Licencing problem? From: GUEST Date: 12 Dec 00 - 04:15 AM I was involved with a folk club a few years ago that used to meet in a amateur dramatic theatre (which did not have an MCPS licence). Somehow MCPS found out and sent the theatre a bill for their estimated annual fee (their estimate was far more than we could afford). I wrote to MCPS explaining that we were a traditional folk club performing traditional unlicenced songs and I gave them a few examples. They wrote back to me claiming that some of the songs I had listed had been covered and although the author could not be traced we may be using the arrangement (they claimed that the Pogues and U2 had recorded songs with the names I had given). If it wasn't serious it is funny to think that they think an unaccompanied singer may be trying to sound like U2 !! Now this really annoys me, that we have to give money to these bands so that we can perform traditional songs in public when they probably learnt the songs from people such as us in the first place. After a number of phone calls I eventually managed to negotiate the fee down to a level that we could afford to pay (we did consider moving the club but there was no other suitable venue). Unfortunately MCPS have the law on their side once they find you, so my advice is don't get caught and if you speak to MCPS don't mention that there is a public bar anywhere near where you are performing. Ian |
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Subject: RE: HELP with UK Music Licencing problem? From: Steve Parkes Date: 12 Dec 00 - 03:22 AM You need a licence to operaste a jukebox in a pub. Is that the same thing, or is that just to keep the MRCPS away? |
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Subject: RE: HELP with UK Music Licencing problem? From: GUEST,CraigS Date: 12 Dec 00 - 02:37 AM Any public place (including village halls,etc) needs to be licenced for Music and Dancing if more than three people are singing at any one time - for a pub it's only a small addition to the licence to sell alcohol, and not very expensive, so if you're worried for your session's legality have a collection to pay for the extra licence and give the money to the landlord. |
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Subject: RE: HELP with UK Music Licencing problem? From: The Shambles Date: 12 Dec 00 - 02:18 AM It seems to be OK for the two people playing at one time sort of thing. When there are more players than this, the letter of the law is being used, as in this case, by someone complaining to the local authority and that does appear to be the law, if invoked?
"If the law believes that then the law is an ass".
If it is the law, can anyone suggest a way around it? Like more info on the private party idea. Would the entire pub have to be closed for this or will just one room do? What a bloody country.........
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Subject: RE: HELP with UK Music Licencing problem? From: Catrin Date: 11 Dec 00 - 08:34 PM Shambles - the uk is full of people making music in pubs without a license. I have just been to a place where they have a singaround one night, a session the next... I don't know about official 'laws' - I just know it happens (without 'license') all over the place. Cheers, Catrin |
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Subject: RE: HELP with UK Music Licencing problem? From: Geoff the Duck Date: 11 Dec 00 - 08:09 PM I think that a pub has to be licensed for music and entertainment. I am sure that I could provide expert witnesses who would be prepared to stand up in any court in the land and testify that folk music is neither!!!!!!!!! GtD |
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Subject: RE: HELP with UK Music Licencing problem? From: Dave Wynn Date: 11 Dec 00 - 07:24 PM We heard that providing only one musician and one singer no problem (to accomodate the Pub Piano days) but it's apocryphal. The other route is to use a segregated room (so it a private party)...needs checking though I am not a lawyer (have to be a shark not a dog to be a lawyer). Spot |
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Subject: HELP with UK Music Licencing problem? From: The Shambles Date: 11 Dec 00 - 07:07 PM Does anyone know the licencing situation of customers making their own (unpaid) music in UK pubs? Do you need a licence for a pub session? |
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