Folklore: Treacle mines

Subject: RE: Folklore: Treacle mines
From: BTNG
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 05:50 PM

the there is, of course The Dormouse Treacle of the sisters who had a treacle well, and they used to draw as well, when asked by Alice what they drew, the dormouse replied..."why treacle, of course!"

Subject: RE: Folklore: Treacle mines
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 05:44 PM

To say nothing of treacle-down economics.....works very very slowly, especially in cold weather.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Treacle mines
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 04:46 PM

From Rustic Speech and Folk-Lore By Elizabeth Mary Wright (Oxford University Press, 1913), page 176:

Evasive Replies to the Inquisitive

There are certain curious expressions used in the dialects as replies to children and inquisitive questioners when the person addressed does not mean to give the desired information.

For example, answers to the question What's that? are: rare overs for meddlers; lay-overs for meddlers, and crutches for lame ducks; shimshams for meddlers; a trinamanoose; a whim-wham for a mustard mill, or for a treacle-mill, a whim-wham to wind the sun up.

What are you making?
Ans. A snoffle [snout] for a duck.

What are you doing?
Ans. Muckin' ducks wi' an elsin.

What have you got in the cart there?
Ans. Only a load of post-holes.

What did that cost?
Ans. Money and fair words.

Where did that come from?
Ans. I got it from the Binsey treacle-mine (Oxf.).

What's the latest news?
Ans. The Dutch have taken Holland.

Where is he gone?
Ans. To Botn'y Baay and thefire he maay staay.

How old are you?
Ans. As owd as me tongue an owder than me teeth.

How old was So-and-So (lately deceased)?
Ans. Oh! I reckon he lived same's Tantarabobus—all the days of his life.

Why did you do that?
Ans. For fun and fancy, because Bob kissed Nancy.

What will you bring us from the Fair?
Ans. If you'll be good children, I'll bring you all a silver new-nothing to hang on your arm.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Treacle mines
From: BTNG
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 04:29 PM

Treacle mining is the fictitious mining of treacle (similar to molasses) in a raw form similar to coal. The subject purports to be serious but is an attempt to test credulity. Thick black treacle makes the deception plausible. The topic has been a joke in British humour for a century.

alot, I suppose, like the jam butty mines, near Knotty Ash

Subject: RE: Folklore: Treacle mines
From: Edthefolkie
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 04:23 PM

There was an exhaustive discussion of the Sabden treacle mines, and their potential in miniature, in the Railway Modeller magazine around 1963.

There was a suggestion about modelling a Singin' Hinny plant in the letters column shortly afterwards.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Treacle mines
From: GUEST,derek stanton ex Bluwater Folk
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 03:02 PM

Sabden Treacle Mines Raid now on you tube

the sabden treacle mines raid_0001.WMV

On the moorland tops of Gobbinland the war drums are a beating and singing the war chant.

You can't put your muck in eawr dustbin cus' eawr dustbins full

yours gradely derek stanton

Subject: RE: Folklore: Treacle mines
From: Ep' Eric
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 06:59 AM

Everyone around Brierfield knows that the only genuine "tracle" mine is the one at the foot of Pendle hill, Sabden, Lancashire and that is the proper pronunciation of it

                                           EP

Subject: RE: Folklore: Treacle mines
From: GUEST,Conan the Blackburnian
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 04:48 PM

The treacle mines at Tockholes were said to supply the East Lancashire Regiment Whose staple diet was Treacle & Oatcakes.Part of Preston Old Road in Blackburn was known as Treacle But Row due to the amount of empty Treacle tins in their dustbins.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Treacle mines
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 03:55 PM

You may have had this information before. Near to Cullompton in Devon is a village caLLed Butterly and as children in the 1930's and 1840's we were often told about the Butterly Treacle mines.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Treacle mines
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Sep 09 - 12:22 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhNAiL0758E

Subject: RE: Folklore: Treacle mines
From: GUEST,Blithe Spirited One
Date: 21 Sep 09 - 12:19 PM

Here's the link to the Unlucky Fried Kitten at Tovil Treacle Mines
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhNAiL0758E

Subject: RE: Folklore: Treacle mines
From: GUEST,Blithe Spirited One
Date: 21 Sep 09 - 12:12 PM

I had to look out those videos you mentioned (referring to the previous poster) They were indeed very interesting...and the mystery rolls on. There are a lot of unsupported claims, for sure, with regards to various Treacle Mines...but the Tovil Treacle Mines featured in the Unlucky Fried Kitten video on YouTube seem to hold a lot of water. (not literally) There are lots of intriguing little facts on this video...as it takes you through the very lane where the Treacle Mine was. I'll keep an open mind...but I'll do some more digging (not literally)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Treacle mines
From: GUEST,Gadaffi
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 07:34 AM

Whilst I was in St. Thomas's Hospital earlier this year, I shared a ward with Bill Wickham who actually was the director of the Tovil Treacle Mine Co. Ltd.! He is now 88 years old, has a couple of dodgy knees, and was there for a heart bypass operation like myself!

He told me how A.E. Reed & Co Paper Mill put out a float every year at the Maidstone Carnival and invariably won. In the late 1950s they themed it around the treacle mine stories - there is a photo in the Kent Messenger for their float in 1956.

It wasn't till I was home and googled to find more information, I found an article on Bill in the Kent Messenger from last Autumn.

Oh well. Back to work after convalescence next week. It's been great fun watching YouTube features on The Treacle People and Unlucky Fried Kitten's video. Hey ho!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Treacle mines
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 02:42 AM

And of course there is now Treacle Mine Road in Wincanton ...

Kitty

Subject: RE: Folklore: Treacle mines
From: GUEST,Gavin Atkin
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 06:32 AM

Quite a lot of people in Frittenden say they have a treacle mine in their gardens. But the grand-daddy of them all may be in a friend's garden....

During the course of the festival I learned that the lake at the back of my friend's house was dug by navvies who had just finished working on a local railway line. Because my garden in a nearby village is on the same clay I can say with certainty that it would have been hard, heavy work. This lake, I should say, extends to quite a few acres.

Any way it seems that when plastered with yellow and greay clay at the end of the day they would repair to the pub for a pint, and the locals would josh them about working in the treacle mine.

So there Gadaffi... another legend for your collection. You should ask our mutual friend about it when you get a chance.

Gav

Subject: RE: Folklore: Treacle mines
From: GUEST,treacle people
Date: 05 Mar 09 - 12:52 PM

aye they the made a programme on Channnel four a few wee years ago about them

Subject: RE: Folklore: Treacle mines
From: GUEST,andy mackay
Date: 05 Mar 09 - 07:17 AM

Where I grew up, just down the road from Knotty Ash everyone knew about the Jam Buttie mines made famous by buck toothed, cash hording comedian Ken Dodd, although the only time I ever saw a diddy man was @ the 1973 Christmas panto @ the Empire Lime Street, I did see Ken Dodd knocking about from time to time. One time as a callow youth I was in my car with several cahorts, when I was halted @ a pedestrian crossing, and the pedestrian was none other than the previously mentioned celebrity, with a stack of newly collected dry cleaning over his shoulder. Our reaction was to lean out of the windows and give the poor guy copious amounts of stick, IE where's the diddy men ken etc etc, looking back it wasn't a nice thing to do but then that's what teenage lads are like

Subject: RE: Folklore: Treacle mines
From: GUEST,morrison
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 11:54 AM

When I was a lad I often heard about the mines at rusper,I even went up there to look for them,what a dissapointment to find it was a myth.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Treacle mines
From: GUEST,RyanD
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 04:18 AM

This is becoming more and more interesting! I've only heard about Treacle Mining this morning after watching 'The Treacle People'.

Noticing on the credits that the story was based on the Dewhurst Family I Googled it.

Can't believe that the children's tale was true!!

I haven't seen on this page any mention of 'Boggarts' - the creatures that lurked in the mines. Whats the story there?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Treacle mines
From: Musket
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 10:55 AM

Les Barker refers to treacle mines in his "Curse of the hound of the Baskervilles."

Just thought I would add something.

Never mined treacle myself. Coal, yes, many years ago, but if there was treacle down there, I would just have taken bread down, and save a fortune on black pudding.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Treacle mines
From: GUEST,Jeremy Babcock
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 04:05 PM

The Maidstone Boro' Council are considering spending some money on turning the Tovil Treacles Mines area into a big tourist attraction. I guess it should be preserved for posterity...rather than turned into more new houses.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Treacle mines
From: GUEST,Chislehurst caveman pete.
Date: 29 Nov 08 - 10:15 PM

Faversham and crayford mines. Anyone ever been down em.go to ADITNOW.CO.UK
IF NOT .Google type in Knockholt chalk mine. go to south east and Caveman pete.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Treacle mines
From: greg stephens
Date: 29 Nov 08 - 06:26 AM

Things are in a very sad way in the Duddon valley in Cumbria, and the Ulpha treacle mines have laid off all undergound workers; a skeleton management staff are keping the pumps going to stop the mines filling with water, and we are all praying for an upturn in the economy. Christmas is coming, and children need presents, so if anyone would like to contribute to the Distressed Treacle Miners' Fund, please send a cheque made out to me: I will make sure the money gets to someone who can make good use of it.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Treacle mines
From: Penny S.
Date: 29 Nov 08 - 06:15 AM

That underground link would be the one that runs all the way to the tunnels under Dover Castle, would it? And the bottomless well at Buckland near Strood?

Penny

Subject: RE: Folklore: Treacle mines
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 07:21 PM

Re the Gilead quote: "Treacle Bibles" are worth a lot of money.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Treacle mines
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 07:16 PM

C Terry

Subject: RE: Folklore: Treacle mines
From: GUEST,Chislehurst ,Caveman Pete
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 06:39 PM

Now rumour has it that the Faverham Treacle mines are supposed to link up with the Chislehurst Chalk mines and the Hever Castle Hash mines.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Treacle mines
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Oct 08 - 09:00 AM

The Welsh brewers, S A Brains, have a Treacle Mine pub in nearby Hereford.

Nigel

Subject: RE: Folklore: Treacle mines
From: romany man
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 11:27 AM

Faversham treacle mines are a well known a constant source of fear to the locals gadaffi if you lived near faversham you would know not to take the stories lightly

Subject: RE: Folklore: Treacle mines
From: Penny S.
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 04:51 PM

I suspect the lid problem occurs with people who only use the stuff in Christmas cake.

Penny

Subject: RE: Folklore: Treacle mines
From: GUEST,Gadaffi
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 04:56 AM

Faversham treacle mines?? Sounds like fake-lore rather than folklore to me, especially when perpetrated by a morris team! At least the 7Champs' stories were based on pre-acknowledged tradition at Frittenden.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Treacle mines
From: open mike
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 02:06 AM

once upon a time, a group of us started a food co-op.
we ordered in our first shipment of food, a 5 gallon tin of
molasses. it got fermented somehow, and the tim overflowed.
the church basement where we were storing our food had a
surplus of molasses that day!

thankfully there were no ants....or were there??

Subject: RE: Folklore: Treacle mines
From: Charmion
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 04:02 PM

It takes me anywhere up to four years to go through an entire tin of Tate & Lyle black treacle, and I have yet to experience a black treacle lid removal incident such as Penny describes above. I can hardly wait -- such an event would certainly put a bang into my annual fruitcake production!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Treacle mines
From: romany man
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 12:19 PM

RB, oh god the secret of the faversham treacle mines has broken cover, Dead horse have the history of the mines, i have explored some of the shafts, oh the place is infested with ferrets and torn yorkers, there can be found several remains of the miners boots, (all thats left after the rampant ferrets got to them) i warn other beware the faversham treacle mines, those that were at the hop festival will have seen two of the ferrets freely roaming the campsite in the locality of dead horse ,bishops gundulf, and gongscourer morris, one of the beasts firmly ataching itself romantically to one particular female, it was not a pretty sight.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Treacle mines
From: Penny S.
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 11:13 AM

I see that in skipping down to the end last night I missed that I had issued the lid removal warning already - still, I suppose if anyone else does the same, they won't miss it.

Penny

Subject: RE: Folklore: Treacle mines
From: Penny S.
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 05:18 PM

What a surprise seeing this up here again today. I was thinking about the Sussex mines earlier while reading a book about lost Sussex railways.

I feel it need to be said that if anyone does seek out and buy Black Treacle, they need to be aware that Tate and Lyle advise that if you have had an opened can for more tha a year unused, it should be disposed of without any attempt to open it for H&S reasons. It produces gas which cannot escape from the can which is sealed by dried treacle. If you prize off the lid, you risk it shooting up into the air, or your face, where it can do serious damage.

I managed all right outside on the lawn with a cloth over the can and a screwdriver - but it did want to escape forcefully.

This is not a joke.

Penny

Subject: RE: Folklore: Treacle mines
From: GUEST,lorna
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 05:02 PM

in reply to a post from gadaffi 14 dec 04
my dad & his family grew up in frittenden, the treacle mines were actually down sand lane, there used to be an old tall iron windmill there, that was were the treacle mines are, also my uncle has a photo of the frittenden band chaps from 1860, he and my dad know the stories about them dancing around a haystack and 1 of them getting lost in london.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Treacle mines
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 11:12 PM

Somebody early on in this thread mentioned Sabden Treacle Mines (Lancashire). Derek Stanton wrote an epic in Lancashire dialect "The Sabden Treacle Mine Raid" or "The Battle of Sabden Treacle Mine". There's a link to a recording at http://lankylad.com/Derek%20Stanton.htm . I can't get it to work for me. It's a .wma file and iTunes doesn't appear to recognise it (or at least I can't find it in the iTunes library).

Ross

Subject: RE: Folklore: Treacle mines
From: GUEST,Sparky
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 10:09 PM

To Richard Bridge
There were indeed treacle mines at Faversham...but they were not on the scale of the Tovil Treacle Mines. In fact....I'd go as far as saying that they very rarely even hit treacle. I'd ask this Dead Horse Morris lot if they're not confusing this with the Faversham Licorice Farm. Jeez...some people.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Treacle mines
From: GUEST,Sparky
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 10:03 PM

Although the Treacle Oggie was the most densely produced soft-drink at the Ice-Cold Oggie factory it was not considered to be the most delicious flavour. That mantle is bestowed upon the Barming Cherry flavour...made from cherries picked at arguably the UK's finest cherry-growing region of Barming, on the outskirts of Maidstone.
The factory founder-owner, Mr Harold "Slash" Wildly would make a twice-weekly trip to Barming on the trolley-bus which ended at the Barming Terminus and he would meet the local cherry-farmers in the Cherry Tree public house across the road....where they would thrash out their best prices for the world-famous Barming Cherries.
Back at Bockingford the valley was a favourite location of landscape artists....often seen capturing the idyllic rural scene of the streams and the mills...munching on a Shooting Star or a Treacle Tartello and guzzling on a Blackberry and Damson Ice-Cold Oggie.
An original Barming Cherry Ice-Cold Oggie sold on e-bay recently for £16,500...to a Japanese soft-drinks bottle collector

Subject: RE: Folklore: Treacle mines
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 02:49 PM

Surely these are pale imitations of the Faversham treacle mines, the long guarded secret of which has only recently started to be revealed by Dead Horse Morris, who seem to be transforming from a secret society, to a society with secrets, to a society with rather fewer secrets than we might wish. There may be a sinister connection with German treacle groups too, as heavily disguised persons with blackened faces have been heard to speak that language at Dead Horse stands - ALL THE TIME DENYING THAT THE GERMANS HAVE A SENSE OF HUMOUR!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Treacle mines
From: GUEST,Sparky
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 01:01 PM

There ya go...Tovil Treacle Mines
tovil treacle mines

Subject: RE: Folklore: Treacle mines
From: GUEST,Adam Pallit
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 12:45 PM

There's also a group on Facebook called Tovil Treacle mine Appreciation Group...just fyi

Subject: RE: Folklore: Treacle mines
From: GUEST,Sparky
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 12:42 PM

I spent an evening with a very interesting old man in a pub just outside Maidstone, Kent...a few summers back. I had heard of the Tovil Treacle Mines...but had dismissed it as fable....but this old man put me right. I was still not sure....I was on a trip from the States and I realise it could have been a joke. I done more research and have found it to be completely true. Obviously there are a lot of hoax Treacle Mines...but The Tovil Treacle Mine was actually real. I found a video on YouTube. You just search for Unlucky Fried Kitten at Tovil Treacle Mine. It's wonderful...and very informing. It says how the Mines had to be closed during the Second World War cos the LuftWaffe (German Air Force)used the Treacle Fires as navigation as they flew over Kent. Also in the video you can see a row of cottages where the Treacle Mine Managers used to live...and each cottage has a treacle well in the back Garden.
At one stage in the video you see The Treacle Tower....which is basically a huge chimney from where they used to melt the treacle. The top of the tower was sealed off in the late 50's after 2 local lads fell to their death whilst looking for "treacle scrapings".
Maidstone had a huge Sweet Factory in town...by the river...called Trebor Sharps (which was bought out by Cadburys) and most of the Tovil Treacle was sent there to be made into sweets like The Tovil Tart and the Shooting Star ( a particular fave with the locals at the time)
Interestingly enough the area (Bockingford and Loose valley) had another delightful industry with the Ice-Cold Oggy Factory...just up the road. They made devastatingly refreshing Ice-Cold Oggies (soft-drinks) and , predictably, had a Treacle Flavoured one.
Their best-loved soft drink was the Barming Cherry Ice-Cold Oggy made from the cherries picked at Barming...on the other side of the River Medway in Maidstone.
I don't know if you can do a link on here...won't chance it...so...remember

YouTube....Unlucky Fried Kitten at Tovil Treacle Mines

You'll be pleasantly surprised

Subject: RE: Folklore: Treacle mines
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 08:33 PM

"And does anyone know where one can buy Fowlers West India Treacle?"

A bit too late for that - Fowlers were absorbed into Tate and Lyle in 1976. But Lyle's Black Treacle is still produced. Here's an Amazon link for buying it, with a picture of the rather splendid tin it comes in.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Treacle mines
From: The Vulgar Boatman
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 06:49 PM

For a definitive answer, why not try [e-mail] - the front desk at British Geological Survey...
KYBTTS

Subject: RE: Folklore: Treacle mines
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 11:10 AM

I was aware as a child of the Northumbrian Treacle mines, where they mine rock treacle.....the female haggis gets a craving for this delicacy and flies many miles South of the Scottish border to partake of it.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Treacle mines
From: GUEST,Marcus in New York
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 10:47 AM

Does anyone have any recollection of the lore surrounding the "Wareside Treacle Mines" in East Hertfordshire. And does anyone know where one can buy Fowlers West India Teacle (even at vast cost to import/smuggle past the FDA..)?

Best to all otherwise..

Marcus

Subject: RE: Folklore: Treacle mines
From: GUEST,c.g.
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 12:44 PM

The Treacle mine is at Dunchideock near Exeter, or at least it was in the 1960's

Subject: RE: Folklore: Treacle mines
From: Dave Masterson
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 03:40 AM

If you look hard enough at the Kent & East Sussex Railway you will find the only remaining Frittenden Treacle Mines wagon left in existence!