BS: Peace in Ireland?

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 04:18 AM

'Can anyone recall the last time they heard British Sinn Fein call for a united Ireland ?'

I dunno about that, but God knows I've heard plenty of English people of every political persuasion saying, why don't the Irish sort themselves out?

The fact is that there ARE a lot of your countrymen who feel vehemently that Irish Republic that came out of 1916 and the civil war isn't what they want to be part of.

So if everybody is going to be kept happy - you HAVE to come up with something else - something that is inclusive of everybody's traditions and beliefs.

If you want a united Ireland - the best thing would be to unite. If you just want to go on whingeing because the world doesn't exist in quite the way you would like it ordered - you'd better teach the next generation the words of Four Green Fields and start digging up the rifles.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: GUEST,Comrac
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 03:58 AM

Fine words, sadly the days of several thousand supporters singing it loudly at a protest rally are over.

I often wonder, when Sinn Fein attend a cross border meeting of Dail Eireann and the British Northern Ireland Assembly, who do Sinn Fein speak for ? is it the Irish or the British.

Well Sinn Fein are a British political party now. Can anyone recall the last time they heard British Sinn Fein call for a united Ireland ?

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: GUEST,Proud son of Armagh
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 10:36 PM

"What have I now? said the fine old woman.
What have I now? this proud old woman did say.
I have FOUR green fields; one of them's in bondage
In strangers' hands who tried to take it from me,
but my sons have sons as brave as were their fathers.
My fourth green field WILL bloom once again, said she."

- Well said, Tommy. Well said, indeed.

A NATION ONCE AGAIN!

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 09:39 AM

'The British government have to be admired here, they played the oldest trick in the book and Gerry Adams accepted it, "DIVIDE and CONQUER".'

You make it sound as though the English want something other than the Irish of every persuasion to sod off. Stop killing each other, and stop involving us.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: GUEST,Comrac
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 09:30 AM

Goatfell, there can never be photographs of the weapons being destroyed. Understand it would be on the front of every loyalist Christmas sold on the Shankill Road in December.They sell Christmas cards with the five catholic men shot dead in Graham's bookmakers on the front. Two men of the cloth were there, they said they saw it along with two Americans, a Canadian and three Europeans. So the fact it occurred is not in question. Glad I am not downwind of your fart.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: goatfell
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 08:44 AM

tso why don't the IRA   and the republican/loylist want this all on photograpghs then, and then the rest of the world will know that the wepoones have been haded in, I mean it's justhearsy, until we get real proof that thishas happens abouty the weapons then we can't beleive it, until the republicans/loyists terriosts groups say us edvidance that this has happened, it like a fart in the wind.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: GUEST,Comrac
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 08:38 AM

What is there to understand ? It is simple, The party Arthur Griffiths started (Sinn Fein) for the removal of the British presence in Ireland became a British party. Salaries paid by Britain, they sit in a British assembly and they administer British law in a part of the United Kingdom.

The PIRA were once independent to Sinn Fein. Gerry Adams Sinn Fein's party leader worked his way into the role of commander- chef of the Provisional IRA and the tail began to wag the dog.

2005 saw the PIRA hand their weapons in and stand their volunteers down and apologise to the families who lost loved ones. In any conflict over the centuries those acts are seen as surrender,can it be called any other name ?

Sinn Fein now sit in Stormont, the home of their masters since the 1920's. They sit under 84 permanent memorials to Loyalists and Unionists. They sit on the Policing board. Yes the same force they accused of involvement in murder, collusion and torture.

The unionists/loyalist have always only wanted one thing. A return of Stormont, the Union Jack flying over it and British rule. They received all of that and a little bonus was the surrender of republican arms and their mandate for war.

None of the unionists in Stormont make requests for the loyalist paramilitaries to disarm. The following organisations are fully armed the UVF, UDA, RHC, RHD, UFF, LVF,PRF and ULF. In fact the loyalists have so many weapons they are exchanging them to drug dealers in Limerick and Dublin for drugs !

The unionists in government make no request to the loyalist groups for weapons because the state has always had an armed paramilitary force to call on. The B' Specials, RUC, UDR and RIR.

Regarding republican dissent groups, RIRA, CIRA and eirigi pose no threat. All this talk about going to whack a policemen, it will never happen because they know the force would wipe them out overnight. A 72 million pound MI5 interrogation centre building in Antrim lying empty. The new ruling of 42 day detention for suspects. All of this would kick in and they know it.

The ball is well and truly over the wall in the North of Ireland. Possibly if Britain stopped sending them handouts people might want to do something for themselves.

The British government have to be admired here, they played the oldest trick in the book and Gerry Adams accepted it, "DIVIDE and CONQUER".

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: goatfell
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 10:45 AM

andf about the ira

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: goatfell
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 10:43 AM

tell that to people of Ireland (North/South).

but they don't listen

as you say there will no peace until the people forget about the past and just look towards the future

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 11:02 AM

I found that episode of Columbo that was troubling my memory earlier in the thread. It was called The Conspirator and featured a bravura performance by New Zealand actor Clive Revill as the Irish writer/IRA man.

The guy who wrote it - it says on the official Columbo fans website - it was his favourite episode.

As for the other business, if we both faced the facts, England and Ireland are changing so fast that I don't think whatever we end up with - either of us will be able to recognise our own countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: goatfell
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 02:13 PM

don't argue with these people, I tried and got nowhere, and then you wonder why there is trouble in NI, when some people that live there and the south don't listen to reason

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 08:28 AM

But I abhor it from both sides.

Precisely.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 06:15 AM

While people keep dredging up the past there is no hope of peace. Either in NI or here:-(

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 06:04 AM

Re the impersonating,yes and I stand by it.
I made Oakville tell the truth, except that the real Oakville felt no shame for the lies he told.
When the victim of a lying attack by a Guest, why should I not fight back when the mods did nothing?
Presumably you support the lying Oakville.
Tell us why.

Re the violence you refer to, yes and I abhor it too.
But I abhor it from both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 05:53 AM

What a waste of time replying to KOH, in one of your Threads you were caught out impersonating I thought shame would have confined you to the lower regions, killing on the street?,reading todays Irish News it is reporting on a trial involving the death of a 15 yearold Catholic boy beaten to death by a Protestant mob in Paisley`s constituency of Ballymena.
The UDA instead of issuing statements on their loyalty to the crown should be addressing the drug culture, their main means of finance, and also the issue of their weapons.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 03:03 AM

I do not understand Ard's last post at all, but he is probably accusing me of partiality.
If so he is wrong. I have always had equal contempt and disgust for ALL the paramilitaries. Both sides.

In McGraths first link there is not even a THREAT of violence, not EVEN from the breakaway faction.
The second link is about two incidents of arson, but only in reprisal for the burning down of Orange halls.

The Idependent Monitorig Commission understandably singled out the Republican paramilitaries because they are planting bombs in the streets and killing by shooting.

Or have I missed something?

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 04:51 PM

I don't think there is any reason to think that the breakaway UDA "now properly regarded as a separate organisation" will feel bound by any pledges of "non-violence" by th Official UDA, any more than breakaway Republicans feel bound by anything Sinn Fein or the IRA says.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: goatfell
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 01:52 PM

the man from belfast says no,

it's like the chours to the wild rover

and it's no nay never, no nay never no more.

but I can't wait until peace in N.I comes, but you can't have peace when the people out there are waving their flags- union jack/tricolour ones from their houses.

but until that day comes because it is illegal to do so, then peace will truely come to NI

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 11:02 AM

McGrath thanks for pushing Keith in another direction, has to be told first.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 10:08 AM

Thanks McGrath.
Your first link includes the statement that only "non violent" action will be taken by them.
The second link is about alleged arson in tit for tat response to the other side's alleged arson.

My link was about multiple attempted murders by bombing and shooting, and actual murders.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 09:32 AM

Not just dissident Republicans.

UDA statement vows to defend 'Britishness' :

"In a report released yesterday (Nov 10th) on paramilitary groups in Northern Ireland, the Independent Monitoring Commission (IMC) said the UDA was genuinely committed to a political path, but that it was hampered by a serious split within its ranks.

The southeast Antrim "brigade" of the UDA, which broke away from the main organisation, was now properly regarded as a separate organisation."

"Fire damage at GAA premises may be revenge for attacks on Orange halls"

Things could still go pear-shaped...

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 09:10 AM

Bummer :-( Hope the peace rides out the troubles. Ard is quite right of course, it is the landlords, or moneymen, that ae running the show. It is us poor buggers on the ground that pick up the pieces.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 08:08 AM

Dissident Republican groups are said to be more active than they have been for years.
They keep trying to murder police, mainly using roadside IEDs.
It is only luck that no one has been killed.
Such devices are a real threat to local people as well as the intended victims.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7719790.stm

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 07:46 AM

The past five months has seen neither side preferring to give way on policing, the DUP want a return to pre-peace policing, Sinn Fein won`t go with that, result stalemate.
As I said in an earlier Thread the seats are not warm yet, too early to say everything is running smoothly, not that it matters the assembly is only a talking shop with little powers, the landlords in England are the masters and if the assembly continues to play eyeball games, Westminster and Dublin will run the show.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 06:48 AM

Dunno how I came across this - I was looking for something completely different but - hey, these things happen!

Well, over a year later. What is going on in the region? Have any of the suggeted obstacles to peace reared their heads? Did the UVF, or anyone, not give peace a chance? I have heard nothing of guns and bombs for a long time but I am in England. What is it like for the people there?

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 May 07 - 01:50 PM

any Irish patriot should vote for FINE GAEL AND LABOUR AND THE GREEN PARTY,in the election tomorrow.
FF call themselves a REPUBLICAN PARTY but are more concerned with taking brown envelopes,they are disgraceful.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 07 - 12:53 PM

to quote Ian Paisley NEVER NEVER NEVER

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: GUEST,Big Mick
Date: 23 May 07 - 12:46 PM

Fair enough, Dave, here I am. If you would bother to check my posting history you would find that my support of the peace process goes back longer than you have been on Mudcat. That post is but one that I could point out. But that doesn't mean that I am willing to whitewash the actions of the UK government.

If you are happy about the peace process, then you owe a debt of gratitude to Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness and the rest of the Sinn Fein leadership. They have continued to insist on pursuing the political solution in the face of ongoing provocation. And it is instructive to note that the Orange/Loyalists are the ones refusing to disarm, not the Irish Republicans.

Frank, while religion is certainly a part of the troubles from the beginning, it is very important to understand that religion was introduced by the forces of the Crown, and reintroduced by the Capitalists in Ulster as a weapon to separate a people from themselves. When the workers in the Ulster shipyards and the Railways realized they had more in common than different, the Orange card was played. Religion has been used as a tool by those with an interest in keeping the conflict alive. But it is money that drives this, and focusing on the religious aspect just means that we are allowing ourselves to be used by the puppeteers.

But all that is a moot point. The day of the gun is over. For those of us in the States, and for those in the UK, we need to stay back and let this government of the people survive and prosper. The children of Ireland, ALL the children of Ireland, deserve no less.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: GUEST,ib48
Date: 21 May 07 - 09:07 AM

i am protestant,my wife is catholic,what the hell is the problem? neither of us go to church,and i believe that not a great amount of people do in ireland as well.Will they have total peace,i truly doubt it,too many bigots,but we can all live in hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 May 07 - 05:37 PM

Amen to that Southern Man.
I have never met a body in England who did not wish it was someone elses problem.
The day that you can get a majority to vote for it, there will be some celebration here.
May it be soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: GUEST,Southern Man
Date: 20 May 07 - 05:15 PM

Things are looking up: the sooner we have a united Ireland without interference from Britain, the better.

Tiochfaidh ár lá

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 May 07 - 07:54 AM

Link to above sad story.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/6610957.stm

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 May 07 - 07:17 AM

To add to WLD's post.
Only a couple of weeks ago the Dublin government issued an order to prevent a 17 year old girl travelling abroad.
Her crime? To be pregnant with a diseased child who could not survive.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 May 07 - 06:17 AM

Thanks for the responses. Certainly food for thought. If I was to pick one up at random it's WLDs last point - You cannot blame a community in general for the actions of extemists, although it is very tempting at times. What you can do though is hold that community accoutable for not doing enough to prevent the extemists taking over - It is the old "They came for the ... but I was not ... so I did nothing".

If the only remaining stumbling block to lasting peace is what the Loyalists will do as and when the Nationalists lead Ulster back under Dublins rule then it is up to moderates ON BOTH SIDES to ensure that that does not happen in such a confrontational way. Stop the extremists from steering the country along that tightrope and, surely, no one will fall off. Or is that too simple?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 May 07 - 04:33 AM

You are far from even handed Nickhere.

You don't have to go back to the reformation to find a time when the Roman Catholic Church had strange views on contraception and divorce. Furthermore these ideas were adhered to in Ireland in a fundamentalist way that they weren't adhered to in other Catholic countries - France, Germany, or Catholic communities in America. And they were held onto longer than in very catholic countries like Spain and Italy.

Small wonder some people had qualifications in their mind at getting involved. I'm sure you will say - it was never about that. Let me assure you it couldn't have helped.

You can't blame the protestant community for the UVF any more than you can blame Germans for the Nazis. We have a BNP councillor in our village - no one knows what to do about it. He wasn't elected - he just spotted a loophole in the electoral system - there were so many seats on the council and not enough people stood. the first thing we knew about it was when it made fromt page of the local papers.

Extremists have a way of getting through.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Jimmy C
Date: 13 May 07 - 10:16 PM

Nickhetre,

You said it better that I could have described it. Thanks

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Nickhere
Date: 13 May 07 - 07:44 PM

Frank - "Religion is the nine-hundred pound gorilla in the room."

Religion was an important factor once upon a time. But that was back in the time of the Reformation and Counter-reformation, in the 1500 and 1600s. The whole of Europe was convulsed in a religious 'civil' war at the time. Two factions of Christianity slugging it out: "Do you believe in God the way I do? No? Then take that! and that!" The devil must have really been enjoying himself. Religion was an important issue in the 1700s in Ireland when being a catholic barred you from most walks of public life, severely restricted your freedom etc., The Act Of Succession passed by King Billah (William of Orange) barred catholics from the throne of England - and is in force even today.

But catholic emancipation came with Daniel O'Connell in 1829 and it was an uphill climb to a better life for Irish catholics after that. It was in the north however that they tooka step backwards, as loylaists tried to drag their country into the late 17th century once more.

But at that stage religion itself had little or nothing to do with it. First of all, let me ask you - what are the differences between a protestant and a catholic? Not sure without checking Wikipedia? Then you probably have more idea than a number of the protaganists in the Troubles.

What 'Protestant' and 'catholic' really came to mean was a key to your cultural identity, origins, political outlook etc., If you were protestant it was probable -though not guaranteed (the protestant members of the IRA are often overlooked in this regard) that you had a certian view of the world order that had little to do with religion as such.

Some of these ideas are descended from the social Darwinism of the 19th century as 'scientists' seized on Darwin's theories to explain why Anglo-whites should rule the world. They divided the world into 'masculine' nations and 'feminine' nations and attributed characteristics to them according to their whim. Masculine nations included Germany, Switzerland, Holland and England - firm jawed, hardworking, rational, honest, sober, society-builiding etc., On the contrary, feminine nations such as Spain, Italy and Ireland (France hovered between) were the opposite: irrational, frivolous, lazy, dishonest, socio-pathic or clannish at best and so on. the same attributes were ascribed to men and women, and protestants and catholics in the same way. Underlying all this was the notion that the 'feminine' (Irish catholics) were incapable of self rule and needed the firm hand of masculine nations (English protestants) to rule them.

I'm sure there are many decent northern unionists, but up to more recent times, if you probed them on the subject, you'd find many had inherited these hand-me-down views of their catholic neighbours. "Don't employ a catholic - they're lazy and dishonest and they'll pack the place with other catholics" would be one kind of typical comment. Or "they don't want to work, they'd prefer just to get the welfare payments" etc., Indeed a number or Protestant firms in southern Ireland (I won't embarrass them by naming them) discriminated against catholics (probably for the same reasons) up to the 1940s with signs such as 'vacany - no catholics need apply' and moreover, were apparently able to get away with it.

So you see, it wasn't simply that northern (or some southern) protestants viewed their catholic neighbours with suspicion and condescion on account of religious difference alone, but on a kind of supposed perception of what kind of character accompanied that religious denomination.

Meanwhile catholics generally assumed that if you were protestant, it meant your ancestors came to the land as inavders, you discriminated against catholics, you supported political union with England. In fact it would make more sense to describe the Troubles as a fight between unionists / loyalists and nationalists / republicans than between protestants and catholics. This latter religious labelling only clouds the issue. It helps the powers that-be by presenting what is really a socio-economic struggle as a clash of two religions requiring no further explanation. That is how it was sold to the general public of both countries and abroad - especially by UK tabloids - so the real root causes and injustices were not tackled and the problem prolonged.

Weelittledrummer - yes, I agree, there are of course many decent unionists. But apparently not enough of them to have stopped the Troubles taking place in the first instance. They could have sent their more militant loyalist neighbours 'to coventry' and made such anti-catholic / nationalist behaviour socially unacceptable. Things happened because not enough decent people did enough to stop them happening that way, and because more people preferred to let them happen the way they did. They may be decent in their day-to-day interactions with friends neighbours etc., but yet they gave their support to a political system that favoured them over their catholic neighbours. I cannot account for every single decent unionist, but the general trend was to vote for governments that discriminated aginst catholics, reject those (like Terence O'Neill's) that tried to bring about some small measures of relief for catholics, and continue to support a system (either actively or passively) from which they benefitted, even if that system was unjust to their catholic neighbours.

ArdMacha - indeed, it's true. The UVF and UFF still have their guns and no-one is putting any pressure on them to disarm. They have no political ambitions in the south, unlike republicans, and so the southern politicians were only concerned with republican guns. Once the southerner's patch was secure and republican guns out of the equation, they forgot about any further decomissioning. The media share some of the blame here. they made a huge noise about certain murders committed by republicans since the peace deal (I won't mention any specifics) but hardly a whisper about several murders by loyalists over the same period.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 13 May 07 - 05:00 PM

Just a reminder that once again the Protestant UVF have refused to dispose of their weapons, and you ask that we trust them.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Alice
Date: 13 May 07 - 11:48 AM

I have great optimism.

Whenever I sing Silent O Moyle, I think of that seemingly impossible day when peace would come and the suffering be over.
The verse in Silent O Moyle, the story of the children of Lir being turned into swans and the peace that will finally come after long years of children living in pain, tells of the release from that pain in some future day.

"Yet still in her darkness doth Erin lie sleeping,
Still doth the pure light its dawning delay.
When will that day-star, mildly springing,
Warm our Isle with peace and love?
When will heaven its sweet bell ringing,
Call my spirit to the fields above?"

One version of the day of peace in the folk tale would be when the bells of Christianity ring (both Protestant and Catholic bells!)
Another version I read was the day of peace would come and the children released from their swan shape when a woman from the South
lies with a man from the North.

Hopefully the day of peace has come and the children's suffering is over!

Alice Flynn

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 13 May 07 - 11:15 AM

it makes no sense to me to take the argument that religion plays no part in the "Troubles".
Why do Protestant and Catholic as opponents keep coming up in this history?

It's analagous to people from the South claiming that slavery wasn't an important factor in the US Civil War.

Religion is the nine-hundred pound gorilla in the room.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 13 May 07 - 07:27 AM

weelittledrummer, the Northern Ireland protestants (unionists) I have known have also been decent people, as have the Northern Ireland catholics (republicans).

But guns and baseball bats have been used by both unionists and republicans.

Hopefully they will never be used again.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 May 07 - 06:33 AM

The Northern Ireland protestants (unionists) that I have known have been decent respectable people, who wouldn't settle matters with guns and baseball bats.

I realise you were trying to give a potted history and the truth has to be compressed Nickhere. However it 's not fair to tar a whole community with the same brush.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 13 May 07 - 05:28 AM

The 'south' (the Republic of Ireland) will never 'take responsibility for' Northern Ireland. It may be that the two will unite again as one nation at some stage.

Northern Protestants are terrified that a united Ireland would mean that they were under the thumb of people who hate their religion and obey bigoted priests.

It will take a while for this image - which was horribly and sadly true as recently as 50 years ago - to die away.

North and south have been divided by the Border to the extent that most people in the Republic of Ireland now know few people from Northern Ireland, other than those who have migrated south.

What's needed now is what is actually happening: businesses expanding from one side of the Border to the other, and tourism encouraging people from either side of the Border to get to know their unknown neighbours on the other side.

No one in Ireland wants to talk about it because it's all too delicate right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Nickhere
Date: 12 May 07 - 09:14 PM

I was away on hoilidays or would have answered your question sooner, Dave.

Yes, I gather the guns etc., are finally silent. But in the 10 after the 1994 peace deal, there were some 2,000 plus punishment beatings, kneecappings etc., the majority of them by loyalist groups, plus a number of murders, several of them still unsolved. However, in the last last few years even this seems to have died down. That's a good thing at least. Some people will grow up and live out their lives that otherwise might not have done so. A generatuion will grow up that won't have firsthand experinece of the fear and tension living in such a situation brings, such as the fear of walking down the 'wrong' road at the 'wrong' time, drinking in the 'wrong' pub, having too-predictable a daily routine that might get you killed, etc.,

But i think those who posted here saying that it's time people forgot their differences are missing the key point. It was never about religious difference, even when religious difference was shorthand for different background and cultures. People didn't take up arms against one another because they went to different churches, or listened to a different type of folk music etc.,

The problems happened because one part of the community, who indentified themselves by origin, religion and culture wanted to have total dominance of the society in which they lived, at the expense of another part of the community who were different to them in some way or another. To this end, since the formation of the northern state in 1920 and especially from 1922 onwards, when the formation of the southern Free State confirmed this partition, the unionist section of the population worked hard to ensure the two communities were kept divided. Protestant proletarians learned to be thankful for the little they had because their catholic counterparts had even less. That left the ruling elites an ever freer hand to create in their own words "a protestant state for a preotestant people" They completley subverted and distorted the democratic apparatus of the state to serve this end. Electoral boundaries were rigged in order to provide protestnat dominated local councils and government even in areas where catholics were a majority. Catholics were thwarted from obtaining work at most protestant firms, found it impossible to get ANY job in the public sector and were discrimintaed against at every level in society from housing, to jobs, to social welfare etc.,

This state of affairs - an effective apartheid state - couldn't last forever. In the 1960s many people had access to TV, or news filtered through in other ways and could see what was going on in the USA with Black Civil Rights movement. The catholics of the north got 'uppity' and started demanding civil rights too. Note that the IRA campaign in the north had petered out by 1962, after a brief flurry in the early 1950s ("Sean South of Garryowen" fame). That didn't stop loyalists murdering two catholics for sport on Malvern Street in 1966. Nonetheless, what the catholic civil rights protestors wanted was equal rights as equal British citizens. Thoughts of a 'united Ireland' were forgotten (at leats for the moment) as unpractical. But even this was too much for unionists (remember also that the act of marching around waving placards has particular resonace in the north - think of the Orange Order: "where we march, we own") and so with worldly-weariness, they picked up their baseball bats, bricks and so on and laid into the catholic civil rights marchers (the UDA was formed about this time for just this purpose). The mainly-protestant police (the RUC) did nothing to stop them, and sometimes even joined in.

Now if unionists could have found it in their hearts to generously grant equal rights to the other human beings sharing their turf, there might have been no Troubles. But you can't expect a generation of articulate angry young people to put up with such treatment for long, and the IRA re-appeared to defend catholic areas (though they were woefully equipped to do so at the time, 1969 / 1970) from loyalist mobs. Hundreds of catholic families were burned out of their homes in what would now be called ethnic cleansing. (The IRA later split into different factions, the Provisional IRA, or 'Provos' as they became known being the more active and aggressive on the ground in general).

Anyway, I won't bore you all with history you probably already know, but just to remind that we are notr talking simply religious, or even cultural difference here.

One might as well have argued back in 1950 or 1960 that it was 'time for black people and white people in America to forget their differences and make peace between them'.

But Peace is nmot simply the absence of violence. Peace can only come about in a society where there is real justice, equality and fairness. Peace is not something that is legislated, constructed out of thin air. It comes about naturally when the above conditions are met. The northern state from 1920 up to recent times (and it still has some way to go) is a stern reminder of the danger of assuming a state is truly democratic simply because it has the veneer of democratic institutions and apparent democratic procedures. It is a reminder of how a state can call itself democartic and appear to the casual observer to be so, yet disenfranchise a whole section of the population.

Peace will come to the north if democracy works, discrimination ends, justice etc., are present. The only hiccup left then will be if nationalists vote to reunite with the south. As another mudcatter here noted, given the current unionist mindset that is likely to create some problems. Unionists have held a privileged position for so long that they simply cannot get out of that mindset to believe the 'other side' won't try and do the same thing if Ireland is reunited.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 May 07 - 03:47 PM

I am a fan of Tommy Sands, the songwriter from Belfast area. His songs, "There Were Roses" and "Love Will Come Again" speak more deeply than all the rhetoric from both sides of the "troubles" can do.

It's time for Ireland to put away her differences and become whole again.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 12 May 07 - 11:57 AM

A lot of you are forgetting the very low turn-out in the recent NI election 40 per cent of the people did not vote, that is rock bottom for the north.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 12 May 07 - 07:38 AM

Dave, it's very hard to answer those questions.

As the move towards peace has progressed the economy has improved - things like more employment and rising house prices. Hopefully, people will enjoy the improvements and this will give incentive to continue in a positive way.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 May 07 - 05:54 PM

Thanks guys - much appreciated. I can well understand the trepidation after all these years of living in hope. My big worry is that people in the region will see any move as doomed to failure before it starts and that will become a self-fulfilling prophesy:-( 3 out of 3 responses here have allayed those fears. I am getting the impression of 'hope for the best but fear the worse' - A healthy attitude in most situations! Is that the general mood in the area?

I have had no feedback about the possibility of the region becoming self governing - Not beholden to either England or Ireland, even if in the short term. Is that someting that you can see happening or am I away with fairies? Can we also put a timescale on when people feel that the peace does have a longer lasting chance? When, for instance, should we expect the predicted riots and bloodshed? Whan can we assume that the worst is over and it will not happen? Basically - how long do I have to hold my breath and cross my fingers for?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 11 May 07 - 02:19 PM

It's very much a step by step situation and hopefully, having come this far, any future problems could be sorted out.

Subject: RE: BS: Peace in Ireland?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 11 May 07 - 01:28 PM

Dave sure I am wrong, but, hold fire until their asses warm the seats, any sane person wants peace, but with justice, this has still to be realised, I could point out many injustices that has still to be realised.
In the meantime we await to see the outcome.