BS: Supermarkets destroying Communities

Subject: RE: BS: Supermarkets destroying Communities
From: rich-joy
Date: 05 May 04 - 05:06 AM

At a recent meeting of the concerned citizens of Maleny, regarding the invasion of Woolworths' conglomerate, a lone voice took the microphone to expose the benefits of Woolworths coming to town.
He spoke; We listened; Quietly and attentively, allowing the freedom and the right-to-speech that our fathers and grandfathers had fought for in two World Wars.
Later last week, it all became clear.
Woolworths have signed a deal with a major petrol company (Caltex) to supply discount fuel for Woolworths customers and - wouldn't you know it? - turns out that "lone voice" owns the Caltex petrol station in town!!
(Why am I not surprised ...)

Now Martin Gibson posted on 25 April :
"True, I am also a marketing professional for a large corporation ..."
: COULD it be, that the "large corporation" he alludes to, is Wal-Mart???!!!


Cheers!
Poor Misery (Rich-Joy's partner!)

Subject: RE: BS: Supermarkets destroying Communities
From: dianavan
Date: 05 May 04 - 12:34 AM

...and Martin, I did shave both my legs and underarms. I usually do that in the Spring. I'm pretty much of a hairless wonder. Do you like me better now?

Did I forget to tell you that the shaving fashion was started by Eva Braun, Hitler's girlfriend? Seems he thought that the dark-haired, furry ones were not as evolved as the blonde, somewhat, hairless types. He liked Eva when she was silky smooth. Oddly enough, it is one of the vestiges that remain of the Nazi culture. That in itself, is enough to make most women stop shaving altogether.

Subject: RE: BS: Supermarkets destroying Communities
From: dianavan
Date: 05 May 04 - 12:25 AM

But Martin, I am an American. I am also Canadian.

Subject: RE: BS: Supermarkets destroying Communities
From: Once Famous
Date: 04 May 04 - 10:09 PM

Kim C.

Your last post was a fresh air voice of reason that I truly appreciate.

You are a gem.
Please post more often!

Subject: RE: BS: Supermarkets destroying Communities
From: Kim C
Date: 04 May 04 - 10:02 PM

I'm not a huge fan of Wal-Mart, but...

Wal-Mart isn't a monopoly. There are plenty of other choices besides. Wal-Mart, as obnoxious as it may be, is some people's idea of the American dream: local store turned worldwide company. Not saying I necessarily agree with that, but here in the Land of Opportunity, you too have the opportunity to grow a business.

Then when you grow it and become wealthy, people will kick you in the ass and talk about what a parasite you are. Nice, huh? If you don't believe me, ask Ted Turner or Bill Gates.

Wal-Mart has stuff that people need and want at prices most people can afford. If people didn't actually shop there, they wouldn't be so huge. Don't blame them - blame the market. If you don't want to shop there, don't shop there. And yes, you do have a choice. Depending on where you live, it may be an inconvenient choice, but it's a choice all the same.

Martin, while Nashville's reputation as Music City is vastly overrated, it's a pretty fair place.

Subject: RE: BS: Supermarkets destroying Communities
From: Once Famous
Date: 04 May 04 - 09:52 PM

dianavan, you have no idea what it is like to be an American.

Monogomous relationships?

Grow up, please.

Better yet, take a shave.

Subject: RE: BS: Supermarkets destroying Communities
From: rich-joy
Date: 04 May 04 - 09:43 PM

Well said, Dianavan!


This is the Australian situation at present :

" ... Anti-Competitive Conduct and Pricing :-

Alan McKenzie, spokesperson for the National Association of Retail Grocers of Australia (NARGA), was interviewed by Stephen Long on ABC Radio on 26 August 2003. He said that Woolworths and Coles Myer have the highest grocery retail market concentration in the world, approaching an unparalleled 80%; their control of petrol is about 30%, and liquor is 30­-40% of the market. In the UK, the three biggest supermarkets control less than 50% of the market; in the US, the top three control less than 25%. Nowhere else in the world do they have 30% of the petrol market. Some critics say that these lower prices won't be sustained once they squeeze suppliers' margins and force competitors out of business.


NARGA issued a media release on 17 December 2003 that announced how a recent High Court decision has dealt a fatal blow to the misuse of market power provision (section 46) of the Trade Practices Act.

Mr McKenzie writes: ""There can be no doubt that the latest decision confirms that the High Court has taken an unduly narrow view of section 46, a view that does not do justice to the parliamentary intention behind the provision.""

He goes on to state: ""Effective laws deterring abuses of market power are critical to the promotion of competition for the benefit of consumers. Unless the abuse of market power is prevented, efficient smaller players can be destroyed by larger and more powerful players with their deeper pockets and every interest in protecting any inefficient practices.""

He concludes: ""Given that a firm could engage in the same below-cost pricing or other potentially anti-competitive conduct, with or without market power, it is clear that in the High Court's interpretation of the key concept of taking advantage, there are few, if any, types of conduct that will be caught by s46, simply because such conduct can be engaged in by firms with or without market power.

Section 46 of the Trade Practices Act allows a company to fix prices below cost in order to eliminate competitors if that company does not have substantial market power.

Woolworths spent over $10 million fighting the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (ACCC) in a Victorian Court over price fixing and misuse of power. One of its Safeway stores had stopped Tip Top bakeries from selling factory seconds and discounts at a stall at Preston Markets. Supermarket suppliers dropped Tip Top until small retailers ceased discounting. Woolworths CEO Roger Corbett commented: ""We don't deliberately undercut our small competitors."" If this case goes to the High Court, it will probably be overturned because they will be able to say that Safeway did not have substantial market power.

Federal Labor has said that it will amend the Trade Practices Act to prohibit predatory pricing. It highlighted the recent High Court rulings as weaknesses of the Act in dealing with predatory pricing, and cited section 50 of the Canadian Competition Act as one approach worth considering. This ruling prohibits firms from ""selling products at unreasonably low prices, having the effect or tendency of substantially lessening competition or eliminating a competitor, or designed to have that effect"". The Australian Democrats have been advocating amending the Trade Practices Act for quite a while now and are delighted that Labor sees the virtue of this policy position ... "

From Maple Street Co-op News,
February/March 2004
"We Won't Shop There - or There!"
by Lori Sturtz


and there's LOTS, LOTS more ...


Cheers! R-J

Subject: RE: BS: Supermarkets destroying Communities
From: dianavan
Date: 04 May 04 - 08:25 PM

I've adked this question before but have never really been answered. Isn't there some kind of law about monopolies in the U.S.??? Isn't this what those laws were intended to prevent? Don't you think the little guy deserves at least a fighting chance? I know I don't want my community ruined by a big box.

I think most of the people who want WalMart must be the kind of people who are living in isolated, monogamous relationships. They like to drive everywhere and use their cars as insulation against the outer world. They plug into their t.v. and computer as a way to socially interract with others. They are usually quite poor or have come from an impoverished background and have no critical consciousness. They strive for instant gratification. They think they are getting a deal because they cannot see the long term implications. They think that progress means moving ahead without any concern for the quality of life. They don't have many friends but its always the other guys fault. They absolutely have no sense of community. Above all, they take no responsibility for anything.

Oh, but there I go again, generalizing.

Subject: RE: BS: Supermarkets destroying Communities
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 04 May 04 - 07:48 PM

Smart folks don't want any of them.

Maul Wart is a disease which blights any community by sucking the life out of it! It takes your tax dollars, it closes American manufactureres of things you used only need replace every 10 years with something that you will have to replace in 10 minutes - because is was made by greed in a country called childabusegreedland.

In the old days they had a saying about this kind of thing. It ain't the roll but the quality of it.

You pays for what you gets and at Maul Wart you gets ripped off - remember falling prices for falling value!

Subject: RE: BS: Supermarkets destroying Communities
From: Once Famous
Date: 04 May 04 - 05:48 PM

Hey Kim C. Nice yiddish!

Must be cool to live in Music City, USA!

Subject: RE: BS: Supermarkets destroying Communities
From: Kim C
Date: 04 May 04 - 04:58 PM

It's always been my understanding that all the clothes in the world are manufactured in about three places - they just put different labels on them, depending on where they're going and who's going to buy them. ;-) Target and Wal-Mart have different sorts of things - I have bought clothes at both. The independent shops in Nashville are invariably specialty boutiques that I simply CAN'T afford to shop in. How's that for irony?

Here's another thing to consider: when enough people move to a "rural" place, they start kvetching about all the stuff they don't have within a convenient distance. Some people WANT a supermarket. Some people WANT a Wal-Mart, or a Target, or whatever, because they don't want to drive 50 miles to the nearest grocery where they can buy baby spinach leaves (just for an example) in a bag. They want baby spinach leaves in a bag in their own neighborhood.

Subject: RE: BS: Supermarkets destroying Communities
From: Once Famous
Date: 04 May 04 - 04:48 PM

Forget it. why should I leave it at that?

You pay more for the same garbage which is foolish.

Let's leave it at THAT!

Subject: RE: BS: Supermarkets destroying Communities
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 May 04 - 04:26 PM

From the article, linked above:

>Levi didn't actually have any clothes it could sell at Wal-Mart. Everything was too expensive. It >had to develop a fresh line for mass retailers: the Levi Strauss Signature brand, featuring Levi >Strauss's name on the back of the jeans.

Wasn't the same Vlasic pickles in those gallon jars at Walmart as were in the Vlasic pickle jars in the supermarkets, either. Tell you what, you go ahead and wear your Walmart clothes and I'll wear the ones I bought at Target, and lets leave it at that--

Subject: RE: BS: Supermarkets destroying Communities
From: DougR
Date: 04 May 04 - 04:20 PM

It's amazing to me that you, M.Ted, and perhaps others, embrace Target while vilifying Wal-Mart! Martin is correct. Target is solely owned by the Dayton-Hudson Corporation which is a far cry from a Mom and Pop conglomerate.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Supermarkets destroying Communities
From: Once Famous
Date: 04 May 04 - 03:19 PM

MTed, if you believe that about the brand names that Wal-Mart carries, I will easily sell you a bridge over the desert. Brand names will not jeopardize their reputation for quality that way, especially sold in the high volumes that Wal-Mart sells them. As I said, Wal-Mart has big time buying leverage and will cut a high volume deal with suppliers that they cannot refuse. The suppliers make up for their lost profit margin with high volume gross profit dollars and so does Wal-Mart. Wal-Mart is a champion at big-time negotiating and cutting their profit margin way down on some products as loss leaders to get you in the store. Once there the consumer buys other items that Wal-Mart buys also at a great negotiated deal but does NOT pass on all the savings to you, so it all evens out for them.

It's called merchandising and no one in the world does it better than them.

As for Target, which is owned by the conglommerate Dayton-Hudson, I think their fashion is worthless even though they are marketing it as trendy.   By the low depth of hard goods inventory in their store, and their higher prices on those items, they have no where near the buying power that Wal-Mart has, house brand, notwithstanding.

Subject: RE: BS: Supermarkets destroying Communities
From: M.Ted
Date: 03 May 04 - 10:17 PM

I assume, Martin, since you said that you worked in marketing, that you realize that the "brand named products" that Walmart sells are made especially for Walmart, and are not necessarily comparable to the stuff with the same brand names that are sold in other stores. As to Target, fact is that a lot of the stuff in Target carries the Target label--better quality by far than Walmart--and fashionable to boot--

Subject: RE: BS: Supermarkets destroying Communities
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 May 04 - 09:10 PM

Actually, I gave up being a folk singer years ago.

I just sing gregorian chants in Chinese these days accompanied by a flugelhorn.

Keep humming. Maybe one day you'll get lucky.

Subject: RE: BS: Supermarkets destroying Communities
From: GUEST,alexivirleo
Date: 03 May 04 - 08:11 PM

Hey Martin, maybe if you tried eating organically you would rid your body of all those nasty chemicals that are causing you to be so vitriolic towards your fellow folkies in this forum ( I am assuming that you consider yourself to be a folkie ??) hmmmmmm......folkies........folk music.......music of the PEOPLE..........hmmmm, seems like there might be some silly principles sung about in folk songs.

Subject: RE: BS: Supermarkets destroying Communities
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 03 May 04 - 06:41 PM

Hey Melany you do have a choice! In California Maul Wart had its arrogant OSU executive noses shoved up their own arses by City Planning, all you have to do is deny them permission to build. If they have already bought your city council, then take those buggars out and hang em - next elect your own people and revoke the planning concent.

The rest is easy ' p1ss oft Maulers go grow your stinking diseased Warts someplace else '

Subject: RE: BS: Supermarkets destroying Communities
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 May 04 - 06:08 PM

So what? Really, so what?

Snide remarks? So a few Wal-Marts closed out of how many in this country? Hundreds? I'll bet less than 1% have closed.

What is so wrong with increasing sales volume and trying to get a better price from suppliers and passing it on to your customers? why don't you take a course in Business 101?

It has nothing to do with quality, especially when it comes to brand name merchandise which is virtually all the Wal-Mart carries. wal-Mart has very little if any in-house brands. don't like the way Sam's Cola tastes, don't buy it. I don't. It's crap. However, if they want to sell it for a quarter a can, they sure have every right to.

as for Target, they have the same brand names as Wal-Mart for more money.

But as I said, your issue about quality is full of holes. Wal-Mart cuts big time volume deals with it's suppliers for special prices on brand name products. The suppliers aren't being forced to do this, but Wal-Mart pays their bills quickly and gets the brand the exposure they want.

I still say that if you are paying more elsewhere based on silly principles, you are not really too good with money.

Target has the same brand names for more money. I never buy anything there. Kohl's on the other hand are geniuses as deep discounting clothes. You cannot buy Levi's anywhere for less. but you sure can't buy household or drugstore items there.

Subject: RE: BS: Supermarkets destroying Communities
From: M.Ted
Date: 03 May 04 - 04:32 PM

Actually, Martin, Walmart's suppliers aren't necessarily too happy with them--check this out The Walmart You Don't Know. As to your snide remarks about the areas where the two Walmarts closed--there are plenty of other stores there that have not closed, in fact, they were both in high growth areas with lots of new retail development--

The thing about Walmart is that it sells to the bottom end of the market--a Walmart is great if you have no choice but to shop at those dumpy "mom and pops" that folks love to eulogize(but hated to shop at)--but the folks who move into the sprawling, expensive new developments want better quality stuff than Walmart carries, which is why Target, Circuit City, Kohl's etc are cutting into their market share--

Walmart sells low priced, low profit margin merchandise--their marketing strategy is to increase sales volume and to force their suppliers to keep cutting prices--that means the quality of their merchandise inevitably goes down--the thing is that the great majority of consumers want higher quality, and can afford to pay for it--where does that take Walmart?(Hint--Where are Woolco, Ames, and Jamesway?)

Subject: RE: BS: Supermarkets destroying Communities
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 May 04 - 10:18 PM

You don't have to be familiar with it to know a simple fact, birdbrain.

Subject: RE: BS: Supermarkets destroying Communities
From: Shimbo Darktree
Date: 02 May 04 - 12:04 PM

Thank you, Martin ... I am a bit lost on where the organic argument came from, but I accept your familiarity with your subject.

Shimbo

Subject: RE: BS: Supermarkets destroying Communities
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 May 04 - 12:30 AM

Well, I can see no one here has stopped Wal-Mart because of this thread. I believe they are still the world's largest company. I know for a fact that all of their suppliers love them. They provide their suppliers with tons of demographic and marketing information about themselves and the supplier's competitors.

Piss, moan, whine. This is just another typical thread bashing big business and/or Republicans.

I shopped at Wal-Mart the other day in a nice, clean store. Bought my son his first razor, a fine brand name. Bought a nice new desk chair also that I am sitting on right now. Fine deal and easy to put together. A great value.

So maybe a few Wal-Marts went out of business in some shitty areas that couldn't support squat. Hey, if they couldn't support Wal-Mart, they couldn't support much else.

And remember all you organic eating old folk-singers out there, shit is organic also.

Subject: RE: BS: Supermarkets destroying Communities
From: rich-joy
Date: 01 May 04 - 07:56 PM

ABC-TV Qld current affairs programme on Friday night showed how the concerned citizens of beautiful Buderim (on another mountain top, but closer to the coast) and Coolum-on-Sea (on the way to Noosa) have already lost their Battles With The Developers of Large Souless Shopping Centres, destroying the character of their towns ...

Maleny is gearing up for the long haul.

Cheers! R-J

Subject: RE: BS: Supermarkets destroying Communities
From: Shimbo Darktree
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 11:13 AM

Heavens to Murgatroyd, where does one start?

Firstly, I note that a question asked was "What is a nitch market?". Maybe I can help. In Australia, there has been a plague of nitches for some years. They are suspected to have been carried in a shipment of all-blacks (not a racist term) from a country (unnamed) to our immediate east. They are a small, uncomely mammal, but with a beautiful, soft fur for which the market has grown ("nitch market"). Rich-Joy's partner, Poor Misery (rofl ... I know him!) is, in fact, a nitch-sexer. (I would hasten to point out that this is a passive occupation, rather than an active pursuit.) He has also done the almost impossible, by keeping a nitch alive in captivity. It is a particularly fecund male, named "Four Ball Paul".

But I digress. The hard reality of Maleny goes thusly.

It was once a very small town, seen (by the "great majority") as having a few unwashed folkies carrying various unsavoury diseases, and indulging in various commie activities like not doing paid work, sharing with each other, and free love (must write about that one day ... I could never find the free variety ... and me being such a good-looking bloke, too ...). So far, so good. No-one is going to create a problem, except for the few people who believe in communes because it gives them their own power base.

Years pass, and city living becomes more stressful, while those pinko folkie radicals of yesteryear become the establishment of today. And they now want to actually live the life to which they once paid lip service. And where do they (read "we") go? To join the ranks of those verminous drop-outs in the sylvan surrounds of places like Maleny. It is happening all over Australia, and probably USA, UK, etc etc.

And what happens then? The fields gradually become housing, then speed up to become housing estates. While this is happening, the corner general store, local bakery, book swap, co-op club (whoops!), all either become larger, or close down. Why? Because the Big Boys are coming (see Cyril Tawney's "The Oggy Man"). They come because they believe they will make a quid, because they know that the town has developed to the stage where it is ready to lose its character, and become "just another town". Only the local people can stop this by doing things that have already been suggested - but will it happen? Once a place passes a certain size, it needs a very single-minded community to prevent unwanted development, because the truth is that a certain proportion of the community will welcome the development. And the Big Boys only need a proportion to start with - others will follow later.

I hope you and you neighbours win, Rich-Joy. Maleny is a great place to visit. Unfortunately, it seems it is also a great place to live, and perhaps too many "uncommitteds" have moved in. Get them along to the folk club, and we'll work on their conversion.

And keep the nitches out of the lettuces!

Love,

Shimbo

Subject: RE: BS: Supermarkets destroying Communities
From: rich-joy
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 11:43 PM

THANKS, Guest 28th April, 11.05pm - those links were very interesting!

Cheers!
R-J

Subject: RE: BS: Supermarkets destroying Communities
From:
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 01:00 AM

Some may say 'they don't want progress to come into there town', some may say 'U can't stop progress', others say 'progress is good for there town'. All I can say is we as people of this world have the right and obligation to ensure that progress enriches the environment and not just the pockets of those who bring it in. We as concerned members of our community must remind those who wish to "BULLIE" there way in, that it is up to us the direction that "progress" is taking OUR community. WE MUST ENSURE that this happens, not only for our and our children sake but the sake of OUR PLANET as a WHOLE. For All Creatures Great and Small.
Marko Cimesa, Maleny Protest Site, Qld.

Subject: RE: BS: Supermarkets destroying Communities
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 11:05 PM

A couple of great websites relating to this debate (both from USA):
www.rmi.org is the site of Rocky Mountain Institute. Shows that there are ways for towns to grow at their own pace, and for small local businesses to thrive and townsfolk prosper. www.reclaimdemocracy.org - restoring citizen democracy over corporations.
Good to remind ourselves that even if the US government leaves MMMUUUUUCCHH tobe desired, there are some great people in that country making great attempts to restore the balance.

Subject: RE: BS: Supermarkets destroying Communities
From: GUEST,Aussiepom
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 10:22 PM

All the best to you, The Villan. If you feel strongly about your small town, keep talking to your friends about it. What do they think about Tesco moving in? Here in Maleny (around the size of your town) we have a very active group standing up for what we believe in. Not everyone feels the same. All are free to have their say. Ask people what they want in their in town, you may find you have a lot of support to stop this happening. Listen to the people who wantTesco - then if they're misinformed (some people still think it means more employment, cheaper shopping) do the research to find out what really happens, and share it with them. Once people realise the real consequences Ithink more would be passionate to stop the spread of big corporations and support a healthy local economy.

It's great to see the debate happening so widely. It's time to realise that the only reason these big corporations are so powerful is because we support them! The more people that withdraw suppport (eg don't shop there; lobby against development etc) the more we empower ourselves and stop feeling like victims of the big guys.

Even if you're the only person in your town that feels that way, you could enjoy the knowledge that you don't support an enterprise you don't believe in. I bet you're not the only one.

Subject: RE: BS: Supermarkets destroying Communities
From: GUEST,Steve Swayne
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 02:16 AM

Hello all,

I have read the threads of this discussion topic with interest. You may be interested to see the website created by the protesters in Maleny: http://www.malenyvoice.info

Thanks guys, and keep up all the positive comments.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Supermarkets destroying Communities
From: M.Ted
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 01:14 AM

Actually, Martin, I can take you to a couple of abandoned Walmarts that were opened and closed within the last six years not far from the place I used to live North of Philadelphia--I remember the zoning adjustments and the local political fighting, including massive public concern at the traffic problems that the traffic lights and access roads would(and did) cause--

Walmarts are very vulnerable to certain sorts of competition, and oddly enough, often end up becoming their own competitors--If you care, there are some "guerilla" marketing strategies that can grease a Walmart pretty quickly--the only thing is that it doesn't have anything to do with organic co-ops or such things--

My problems with Walmart have to do with the fact that, A) though once they were a good employer, they seem to have become fairly despicable, B) Their stores are increasingly depressing and filthy, and C) their merchandise gets worse and worse (a result of their policy of forcing their suppliers to reduce prices every year)--

I actually like megastores, having grown up surrounded by Meijer's Thrifty Acres--though I don't think that they should be used to replace scenery--

The great anarchist visionary, Michael Kropotin, essentially predicted megastores, and the mass produced, low cost merchandise that fills them--they offer the working classes goods once only available to the aristocracy--and they represent an economy that is focussed on serving the classes that sustain it--

Subject: RE: BS: Supermarkets destroying Communities
From: rich-joy
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 09:52 PM

Right-On, Sista!!

Cheers!
R-J

Subject: RE: BS: Supermarkets destroying Communities
From: GUEST,alexivirleo
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 09:41 PM

Martin Gibson calls this progress, I beg to differ. It simply another form of colonialism, empire building by the powerful few and a sure-fire way of controlling the masses by controlling what and where they consume. It is repressive and regressive, and the only things that progress are the monopolies that large corporations operate with more and more impunity AND government assistance, as well as assistance from those of us silly enough to think that those saved dollars in our purses don't come at a terrible cost . I live in Maleny, I live on not very much money, but I'd rather spend my last $ on a basket of local organic produce from the co-op, than support those lifebloodsuckers Woolies and have a trolley- full of cheap tainted goods.

Subject: RE: BS: Supermarkets destroying Communities
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 01:21 PM

Mr Gibson belongs to the exclusive club of middlepeople, so you have to understand that if by competition Ozzy farmers work for nothing to compete with Asian famers who pay Woolworths to display Asian veggies the middlemen always collect because they own the warehouse as well as the Minister for import and shopping.

They never lose, you the consumer always get the shaft!

What can you do? Just don't shop at the cheap shoddy poison food mega stores! I don't as well as many others here in the US where shopping everywhere except Maul Wart is a saving.

We save money on return trips with defective shoddy broken in the package hardware, we save money on health bills by not eating Maul Wart pinebread ( made from wood chppings! ) or their shoeleather meat, or their watered down milk, or their underweight chickehshit coffee, or their wastecrude oil products like Smelly Valley Butter That Will Not Fatten ( sure you'll be dead from eating it )... and so on.

We save out community valable living wage jobs by supporting the local stores that pay a living wage. We save our tax burden by restricting the number of grossly underpaid Maul Wart employees who would be sucking off the welfare system.

So Ozzies if you care to save your society you can, though I agree one large bulldozer and a willing mob might be a little be faster In the end it will be the same thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Supermarkets destroying Communities
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 08:43 AM

I am more afraid of Martin Gibson's opinion than I am of Wal Mart.
He assumes that we have control over capitalism...that we choose where we shop(if big business destroys little business, big store are the ONLY choice. MOVE....spare me Mr. Gibson. Also the assumption that they do it better is an odd one..it equates bigness with ....what ?

Subject: RE: BS: Supermarkets destroying Communities
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 08:31 AM

What id god's name is a nitch market ?

Subject: RE: BS: Supermarkets destroying Communities
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 07:45 AM

why dont we build cities out in the country away from all the crowds congestion and pollution?

Subject: RE: BS: Supermarkets destroying Communities
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 02:33 PM

interesting point about taxes, Martin Gibson.
here in Vancouver as Im sure probably elsewhere, wall mart has been
wanting to open a store - but because of their size and the promise of jobs they want a break on property taxes - something those smaller stores dont get.

Subject: RE: BS: Supermarkets destroying Communities
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 03:24 AM

Over here in Germany we have similar problems.
In my home town (~25.000) all the smaller food shops (we call them Aunt Emma Shops) vanished, only one still survived due to his special service delivering goods to the lot of pensioners who can't walk and carry. In 7 years the keeper will close because of old age, and he won't find a successor.
All butchers with joint pubs selling meals and self made cider have closed, too. Instead we have got a lot of new restaurants run by Italians, Chinese, Greeks, and Turks. They are mostly run by entire families: it's cheaper because no wages are paid to family members.
There are still bakeries and butcheries, some old, some newcomers.
We have a market twice a week at the main street since medieaval times where the peasants sell their products. The ware is a little bit more expensive than in the supermarket, but the products from the land are of a higher quality.
1. Landownership: The town has bought a lot of areas in better times; it is not obliged to sell to any possible buyer if the community doesn't like his plans.
Due to German laws the community has some very fine instruments to keep the big corporations at bay:
2. The plan for area use: Here the community decides what can be built in a certain area and what not (general rules)
3. The building plan: Corporations allowed to use a certain area can be stopped when the planned building doesn't fit the communities restrictions (special rules).
3. A resolution of restriction: Special goods and shops can be banned from the general rules of 2 when area development runs to the wrong direction (we did it sometimes when I was in town council to protect the shops in town centre).
In supermarket sector we have a monopolist in the country; we just got an interesting offer by another corporation for an area in my town. The monopolist is bidding against; who ever gets it will pay by buying the land for the next 3 planned social projects. I personally prefer the newcomer, due to an old proverb: competition makes business lively (especially for the customers, with lower prices.)

Wilfried

Subject: RE: BS: Supermarkets destroying Communities
From: GUEST,craig
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 02:33 AM

Lesson number 1.

Big business and property developers cannot be trusted.

A couple of months ago Woolwoths said they weren't going ahead with this project. The town sighed with relief and got on with its business.

At the time I thought it was too convenient and probably a developers trick to fool people into thinking the battle was won.

Of course, Cornerstone and Woolworths then turn up Easter Tuesday and demolish the forest before anything can be done.

This effort is typical of the development industry. Fool the pople and attack when they aren't looking.

As it was, Corenerstone acted illegally by clearing riverine vegetation. Don't expect them to be prosecuted though.

Subject: RE: BS: Supermarkets destroying Communities
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 11:52 PM

Who could forget Joni Mitchell's Big Yellow Taxi:

"You pave paradise and put up a parking lot"

Woolies sucks. It is just a huge money vacuum cleaner. Woolies don't own anything. They do deals with developers and lease their buildings for a 15 year term. They don't own the food they sell. It's contracted from the growers who they then screw into the ground with ever more stringent demands for unblemished goods.

"Give me spots on the apples and leave me the birds and the bees"

Poor Misery
(Rich Joy's Partner)

Subject: RE: BS: Supermarkets destroying Communities
From: rich-joy
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 10:30 PM

Thanks, one and all, for your continuing comments.

Maleny, in Queensland, NE Australia, already has more "Co-Operatives" than most other places (I think second only to Mondragon, in Spain???)

Sadly, having strong alternative practices in place already, doesn't keep out the Big Bullies when they decide they want IN ...

And as I've said before, we already have a Woollies about 20minutes away in the next town (where many small businesses have NOW gone to the wall) - and there are any amount of super stores down on the coast, less than a half-hour's drive away.

However, Woolworths' aim is to monopolise every small town's economy, whether or not they're welcome OR needed!!! (i.e. greed)

I can't believe that "good business" ONLY = more money ... thankfully some businesses today are becoming more ethical and incorporating the "triple bottom line" into their philosophy instead ...

Cheers!
R-J

Subject: RE: BS: Supermarkets destroying Communities
From: DougR
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 04:41 PM

Perhaps, but I believe there will always be niche for the small business that provides a needed service and does it better than the big guys. The one think lacking with most of the megastores is good service. You save money, but they can keep their prices lower because, basically, you serve yourself which saves the store labor cost.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Supermarkets destroying Communities
From: Rasener
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 04:31 PM

I can't see anybody from the UK inputting on this. So here goes.

I live in a small rural town in England. population 3500 to 4500.
Next year TESCO will have a supermarket installed here.
What will the effect be to the local shops?
I think it will drive them out of business. We will be left with cafes and pubs.

Sure it will provide jobs and possibly bring more wealth to the town.

However, what will be lost is the fantastic small shop supplying specialised help and care. You go into these shops and they know their products and can advise at length on their products. They have time for you. You always see the same person, and their advice is so valuable. They support the community in many ways.

I personally don't see why Tesco's need to encroach on our small town at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Supermarkets destroying Communities
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 01:12 PM

No they don't go out of business they just hang on in there and slowly wither.

Maul Wart SUCKS

democrats BLOW

Subject: RE: BS: Supermarkets destroying Communities
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 01:12 PM

I agree with Martin. However, do not neglect the co-op idea. It does work and I does save people money. Eventually, however, all of it feeds the BIG machine.

Subject: RE: BS: Supermarkets destroying Communities
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 12:08 PM

True, I am also a marketing professional for a large corporation. But there are the ones who succeed and fail just like in anything else. How many Wal-Marts, McDonalds, and Walgreen drug stores have you seen go out of business?

So what if they have th capital to expand? That to me is not the point. It's that they have every right to do so. If they suck at it, that is the way it goes. You can write ordinances to keep them out of your town, but your residents will only go to the next town where they have opened up instead. Your town's businesses will lose and your town will lose the tax revenue.

Subject: RE: BS: Supermarkets destroying Communities
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 10:10 AM

As a longtime advertising/marketing professional, Martin, I can assure you that marketing research is often really shoddy work--more often than not, it is contrived to support the view of who ever happens to be calling the shots in the corporate boardroom--

The real reason that these guys are expanding is that their business model requires expansion and they have the capital to expand--when the capital disappears, they sell out, close down, and move out--it costs more to stock and operate these mega-stores than it does to build them, once they go into the red, they have no hesitation about shutting them down.

Subject: RE: BS: Supermarkets destroying Communities
From: LadyJean
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 11:24 PM

The Pittsburgh Food Co Op is alive and well despite a big monopoly supermarket chain, and the arrival, two years ago, of Whole Foods, in the same part of town. Perhaps your locals could consider organizing co ops.