Help! Open Stage and C**p performers

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: Suffet
Date: 30 Jun 02 - 11:23 AM

Give the audience credit for knowing that when they come to an open mike they are attending a crap shoot. Most of the open mikes I have gone to, and the few that I have run, have provided enough pleasant surprises to counterbalance the horrors. Anyway, here in New York City, time is generally at a premium, and most open mikes allow everyone only 2 or at most 3 songs. (The open stages at the Postcrypt at Columbia University allow performers a 10-minute slot regarless of how many or few songs fit into it.) So the suffering is never so long as to drive anyone bonkers.

--- Steve

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: Genie
Date: 30 Jun 02 - 12:30 AM

maryf, I know what you mean about singers seeming to be singing lines from their diaries. Some of them get by with it because they have really good voices or because there's are good studio musicians behind them or because they have some good guitar licks, but how they dare call themselves "songwriters" is beyond me. I guess the bottom line is: Do they entertain the audience?

Quandary, I think you need a break -- not just from the c**p performers, but from the whole thing for a while. The scenario you describe is all too familiar, and no one person should have to do all that.

Genie

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: musicmick
Date: 30 Jun 02 - 12:20 AM

Dear Guest,

I'm sorry that you are having the open mike blues and I'm sorry that some of your acts are not up to tyro-par and I'm sorry that these unworthy souls are driving you and/or your audience to drink. There are, I think, some things you might consider before throwing in the crying towel. First, you are not paying performers, so you are unlikely to get real, working professionals on your stage with any degree of regularity. Those pros who do show up are coming for reasons of rehearsal, material tryout, or whim. You cannot depend on their attendence and you surely cannot advertise, either directly or by inferrence, their participation. Stiil, I am aware that a pro brings a level of compitence and showmanship that any show requires, so you might consider some covert token of payment to insure some quality (you still cant advertise his appearence but after a while the audience will come to expect a wothwhile show, and your landlord will find that he is selling as much hooch to music fans as he was to the squawkers' friends) You will then simply preselect your performers adding only those you are sure will please your customers. Unknown artists will have to audition and your decision will be final. It is, after all, your club, your show. Yeah, I know, then it wouldn't be a real Open Mike but truth in advertising is never in question when the customer gets an even better deal than he expected. And dont feel too bad about saying no. If an act cant please a commited music nut like you, you'll be doing them a favor. If I dont have the confidence in my talent and ability to audition for an opportunity to expand my market I dont belong in this business. When I was on the road I sang at open mikes in areas where I was not known. As I am a professional entertainer, I never gave my host the tsouris that some of your wannabes give you. That's not bragging. when you do a job long enough you learn how to do it well. Showcases audition and so should you. Good luck.

Mike Miller

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Jun 02 - 12:08 AM

I think you have spotted this for yourself quite accurately-- overwork. It would be a shame to burn out on something you love so much. I hope you will find good people to help spread the load around a little more, because it's starting to sound like you versus THEM-- and the list of THEM sounds long. What might help would be to focus firmly on what you fairly think each of these folks does best-- and then love that out from them. It sounds like you are providing a really good thing-- if you focus on what you love about it and get help with the rest, I bet you can keep providing it for a long time to come and have even more fun with it. And-- what would it take for it to pay its own way? (Not what do people say it will take, what do YOU think could happen?)

GO FOR IT!

~Susan

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: Justa Picker
Date: 29 Jun 02 - 10:43 PM

I like option # 3!

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: GUEST,Quandary
Date: 29 Jun 02 - 09:15 PM

A couple of things: I don't get paid for doing this - in fact I subsidise the club up to hilt with time, phone calls and other stuff I loose the receipts for, like petrol driving about far and wide either promoting the club or sussing out acts within striking distance, printer ink, shoe leather slogging around town sticking up posters. We have a professional sound engineer who also donates his time and equipment for free, we have a doorman who hates folk music but does it as a favour to me and to local community ie., there is no other equivalent within 10 / 20 miles to play at. We have 100 quid in the kitty which we keep hoping we will increase to pay a decent guest with. Performers pay £1. The next nearest place to play is free to get in (if you can get a spot booked months in advance) and your supporters, last week, would have paid £6 each. The other nearest place charges £2 to everyone which subsidises guest nights - the other place charges £3 to everyone regardless. Or there is always karaoke.

Steve L Rich. In fact, altho' only this evening I was told that I have been 'blessed with a beautiful voice' I don't consider myself a musician (God knows why not then?) In mind, 'Real' musicians can sing unaccompanied and/or play an instrument - so running the club for those people who can do those things is my priority - because I think it's important. Is that arrogance? I get tremendous support and goodwill from most of the club but I AM getting ticked off with performers who don't co-operate or try and blag aggressively on the door about or whinge at £1 (when my phone bill alone for organising a special event was over £100) and then when being told "2 songs!" go on to sing Sir Patrick bloody Spense very badly in half time and then have a go at me because everyone's walked off to the bar or started talking amongst themselves.

Several solutions have been suggested: 1) the sound engineer pulls the plug after 10 minutes 2) I get REALLY Arrogant :) 3) I give it all up and run a Blues club instead with no open mic spots at all. 4) I get past my mid-life crisis of confidence (Why I am I doing this? What is the meaning of life, etc)

Actually - I'll post back later as I'm reaching a point where, well never mind ... I'll post back later (muse.. muse..) a guest MC, actually had one a while ago ... I think I need someone else doing that .. I think this is down to overwork ...

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 29 Jun 02 - 05:34 PM

You're charging the entrants to come in and listen, but not paying the people to play?

I am a firm believer in the old adage that "You get what you pay for". If it's an open mike, you're making a crap shoot each and every time. If you want guaranteed decent performances, audition folks, and pay them what they're worth.

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: GUEST,maryrrf
Date: 29 Jun 02 - 05:15 PM

Yes, that is a problem with some singer songwriters. You can only be introspective, bitter, angry, etc. in your songs if you can find a way to make it interesting or compelling for the audience (if you want to have an audience, that is) - be it through your skill with lyrics, your delivery, or whatever. I've seen so many singer/songwriters sing what appears to be lines from their diaries, and most of the time it just makes me feel like "Well get over it!". However, some of these people have gotten away with it because I hear their songs on the radio. And, many probably do get better with age and experience.

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jun 02 - 03:20 PM

There is one word.
Auditions.

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jun 02 - 03:14 PM

Jed - This is what happens when young, lonely guys listen to Dylan's bitter stuff or Jackson Browne's melancholy stuff, and then decide to bare their souls to the world at large...without having first learned how to do it in an effective and interesting manner.

OUCH!

The set you describe probably surpassed anything I've yet witnessed...but my early stuff was a bit like that...some of it.

- LH

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: alanabit
Date: 29 Jun 02 - 01:28 PM

His singing must have improved an awful lot, because it sure dosn't sound too bad now!

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: john c
Date: 29 Jun 02 - 11:18 AM

Back in the sixties in Edinburgh, they had this problem at a folkclub I used to go to. There was one young would-be performer who turned up regularly, played pretty good guitar but couldnt sing to save himself. As he was a quiet, sensitive sort of guy, it wasnt easy to stop him from playing without hurting his feelings. Somehow they managed but still he persevered, improved and became nobody less than the great Bert Jansch!!

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: JedMarum
Date: 29 Jun 02 - 10:50 AM

You could have a 'performer's selection' team (you and the bartender, you the manager and the waitress, etc) who gives you the authority to tell a c**p performer that they have one song tonight, and it's the last song - OR that the team has decided that performer needs to go off and rehearse his/her material before she/he can play again (in say 6 weeks). You don't need to involve the 'team' much in those decisions, just let them know you need their occasional concurrance on matters.

I have seen some really terrible performers at open mics. And some who keep coming back week after bloody week. They will eventually drive out the non-performing audience if allowed to conitinue. Youhave to find a way to weed 'em out.

It's a good idea to limit all new comers to a very short set. Even one song - with a time limit (no songs longer then 4 minutes). I saw one lunatic drive out the audience at an open mic when the MC gave everyone 5 songs, and this c**p performer sang 5 ten minute songs; all terrible, all badly played, all badly sung, all with missing words for which we had to wait (because presumably they were important). The songs were all deeply personal. He was 30 years old and still angry at his parents for 4 songs - angry at his girlfriend for the last one. The Cmissed the whole set because he chose that time to go smoke refer in the parking lot, then to cruise back and forth between the kicthen and the bar. He apparently didn;t notice that the absolutely c**p performer took up most of the prime time, drove out the listening audience and the rest of the folks who did follow the rules (5 songs or 15-20 minutes) got pushed off the list or played to a room emptied by this as*hole.

As an MC you gota figure out how to make it work, and how to keep it reasonable.

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: GUEST,Sonja
Date: 29 Jun 02 - 04:09 AM

Well said, Stephen.

I'm especially glad mentioned setting the sound right for each performer. I've been at open mikes where the sound was set at certain levels at the outset and you dared not ask for it to be adjusted for your voice. I'd rather sing with no amplification (provided the room isn't too huge) than with the sound set for talking or for a bellowing baritone with a small-bodied guitar--which makes my voice sound tinny (if you can hear it over the guitar at all).

Quandary guest, I'm not saying you run sound that way, just that sometimes performers at open mikes can't 'put their best foot forward' because of the stage set-up itself.

~SWO~

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 29 Jun 02 - 03:29 AM

I am somewhat torn as to how to respond to your dilemma. On the one hand, having spent many years of my career as M.C. of one form or another of open stage, I know exactly how you feel. My empathy is boundless. On the other hand, your attitude would seem to be at odds with the resposibilities of your job. You would appear to be displaying roughly the smae level of arrogance as some of those "C**p perfomers" about whom you complain. My anger at that nearly cancels out my empathy. Here are a few things which you need to keep in mind. 1)Bad performers at such events are inevitable. They are to open stages what tides are to oceans. In order to do your job properly you have no choice but to accept this fact. 2) Don't under estimate your audience. Most people understand that open stages are like Vaudeville (or, if you're in the UK, Music Halls): If you don't like this act, hang around for a few minutes. The next one may be wonderful. 3) You have two basic responsibilities: A) Keep the audience happy. B) Make the performers feel as comfortable and welcome as possible. Despite bad performers, the first part isn't that hard. Use what skills you have to get the crowd up again (humor, sining, juggling, biting the heads off of rats or whatever). Have these techniques polished and ready for whatever occasion might arise. For example develope some poetry jokes to follow someone who has just assulted the audience with his or her latest twenty-minute, suicide epic. I don't mean ridiculing the poet. I mean something like, "What a wonderful thing it must be to be able to write or recite poetry. I only know one poem. 'Mary had a little lamb... and a little mashed potatoes, and some peas, and a bit of mint jelly...'". The latter is not all that hard to achieve either. Remember that although you are being paid (with as much guff as you have to put up with in that job, I darned well HOPE that you getting paid) the other performers are not. For that alone, regardless of the quality of their work, they deserve a bit of extra coutersy. Make sure that the sound is properly balanced for each artist. It requires extra vigilance and some extra fussing with the P.A., but it's worth it in the long run. Enforce whatever rule there are universally (INCLUDING YOURSELF). If the rule is three songs or fifteen minutes, whichever comes first, don't make your opening set half an hour to fourty minutes. Do three songs then introduce the first act. Above all, remember that, as the host, YOU set the tone;YOU shape the attitude and nature of the event. If you are courteous and friendly so, for the most part, will they be so. Finally, ALWAYS thank them,from the stage and personally, for having been there to perform. They are playing for free and, even if they sing badly enough to commit the musical equivalent of fellating dead frogs, they deserve that much. This won't reduce the number of bad acts, but it will make them easier to deal with.

Stephen Lee Rich

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 29 Jun 02 - 02:04 AM

If someone is dreadful, I mean REALLY dreadful, you have to tell them.... it's cruel to let them get their hopes up and then have them smashed as soon as they start thinking they can make something of this.... the recent Pop Idol and Pop Star programmes on UK TV have shown this.... many of those who turned up for the auditions couldn't carry a tune in a bucket! To make matters worse, those who COULD sing were often eliminated on grounds of their looks or body shape. This gives the impression that no matter how crap you are, if you look good, you'll get the gig.

There is one guy who regularly travels the festival circuit in the UK with a penny whistle. He plays at sessions, but he only plays with the fast sets. He doesn't play any known tune, he just stands with the crowd, running his fingers up and down this whistle, whilst overblowing and not paying the slightest attention to anyone else. He will bask in any applause as if he'd just played the Albert Hall solo. No-one has ever had the courage to tell him he sucks (*well, he blows really, it being a penny whistle), they just move further away from him. One year, people sort of started to go and get beer as soon as he got the whistle out, or play slow airs and feature solo instruments, so he sort of got the message, didn't stop him though. Consequently, whenever he is seen, the session vanishes, or else he's blocked out of the door. He appears to be alone, and aching to be one of the crowd.

Hedging and stalling will only stir resentment. If you can possibly tell the person that they are not really suited to a musical career, then do so. Sometimes it's just a change of material, instrument or attitude that's needed. Suggest, rather than criticise (Hey, you know what, I bet you'd be really good at ......)but if they get bolshie, then I'm afraid you have to bite the bullet and tell them straight.

LTS

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: NicoleC
Date: 29 Jun 02 - 01:58 AM

It seems like most true "Open Mic Nights" are at music stores or small clubs where the performers also tend to make up the paying audience. In that case, you have a bunch of musicians that understand what Open Mic Night means, and they'll deal with the worst of the lot.

One option I've seen work fairly well is to skip the "Open Mic" part and install a Jam Session instead. Have a (paid) guy host it, have a set or more or less regular performers, perhaps on the dinner and free beer plan (and you already know who'll work from past evenings), and make it the hosts' problem to allow people onstage a second time or not. It seems to generate a higher caliber of talent, because there's more pressure to live up to the guys onstage and it looks like less of a free-for-all.

It also deflects the blame of "I want to perform and they won't let me" on the host performer and away from the establishment. :)

But it's a different feel. I agree with Michael -- if you have folks paying for the entertainment, you really need to make sure the entertainment is worth the price tag.

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: michaelr
Date: 29 Jun 02 - 01:45 AM

GUEST - you mentioned a "paying audience". If that means you're charging admission at the door, you have a responsibility to keep the level of talent relative to the door charge, and keep the really bad ones out. People don't like to pay to get into bars/nightclubs in the first place, and if you don't make them feel that they're getting their money's worth, they will quit coming in.

If you only meant "audience paying for beer", you can afford to be more tolerant of beginners. I began my public performance "career" (more a "careen", as Richard Thompson used to say) playing open mics, and that was extremely useful to me for overcoming stage fright and developing an idea of how to address an audience. I've been playing semi-professionally for 16 years now.

As far as telling someone he/she sucks, I'm all for it (if it's done with kindness), but these days many shrink from leveling any criticism at all, however well deserved, for fear of appearing impolite or hurting someone's feelings.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 Jun 02 - 01:16 AM

An Open Mic I know of got rid of one horrid guy by banding together...

When it came his turn, while he was getting up to get onto the stage and getting set up, a BUNCH of us would pick that time to file outside for a smokebreak...

Twice, maybe 3 times was all it took, and he quit coming out...

;-)

Subject: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: Genie
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 11:22 PM

Well, guest, I guess there are really lousy singers out there (some of whom become major c/w, rap, and rock stars), but when an activity is staffed by volunteers, isn't it to be expected that some of 'em won't be "professional?"  You expect musicians to play for nothing, and--surprise!--some of 'em suck!

You could try having each person have no more than 10 minutes on stage unless the audience clearly demands an encore.  Other than that, I really don't know how to hold a true "open mike" without allowing the lousy ones as much time as the enteraining acts.  Of course, you could restructure it as a "showcase" and require auditions, tapes, or prior knowledge of the person's work.

On the other hand, as Mark suggested, some of the good entertainers may have really sucked when they first started doing open mikes.  For one thing, stage fright can make you sing off key, forget lyrics, and play sloppily.  Nothing will get you used to performing in front of an audience except performing in front of an audience.

Also, if the lousy performer brings in a slew of buddies and they all order drinks, some pub owners may welcome them in preference to a better musician who comes in alone.

Genie

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: wysiwyg
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 11:05 PM

1. What do YOU think you should do about this? What would you really like to do?

2. What's in the way of your doing that?

3. Go for it! Adjust as you see results. You're smart and you will not kill anyone by being in charge-- go for it!!!!!!

4. GO FOR IT!

Here's to good music, and you getting it to that level.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 10:47 PM

I understand your dilemma, but "open mike" does include the word "open"... Sometimes lousy performers get better with experience or as their stage fright evaporates. Sometimes they don't. Putting them on early or late would work the first time, but not after that. I would suggest talking with the person in a kind and supportive way after the performance...but it's true, some people are just convinced they're wonderful when they aren't. Unless you restructure your "open mike" to require auditions -- this is what happened at the Northwest Folklife Festival in Seattle, which was originally open to anyone who applied -- I think you'll just have to try to talk to those who will listen and let peer pressure deal with the rest. It takes a lot of courage to stand on a stage in front of people...

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 09:54 PM

Yes, give the Newbies a brief slot...like 2 songs...till they've proven they deserve better. Either that or...audition them (gasp!) beforehand. I used to play regularly at an open stage club where the MC would let his 6 year old daughter have a 15 minute set whenever she wanted one. She couldn't sing at all, but she pretended to. She also pretended to tell jokes and stories. This went on and on for months and months. It was pretty outrageous to have to sit through it time after time. He also allowed some neighborhood teenage boys (The "Weasel Brothers") to "perform" stuff that was so unutterably bad that it was downright indescribable. It was not music. It was the demonstration of "attitude" for the benefit of their young friends...and I mean bad attitude.

This MC's utter disinclination to in some way regulate the quality of the acts on his stage led to my loss of interest in going there, and contributed to the demise of the entire establishment eventually, though it was not the only reason for that. His daughter now performs at home, I presume, and the Weasel Brothers are probably vegging out in front of their Nintendos or sneaking beer and smokes illegally in back of the barn.

- LH

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 08:58 PM

Hey, it's your club, right. Put the new folks on late or real early and limit their sets. This way, you'll get an opportunity to judge them for your prime time and they'll get a chance to prove their worth or lack there of. If they're lousy, just keep 'em out of your prime time and maybe take 'em aside and suggest they tighten up their set before performing again...

Subject: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: GUEST,In a quandary
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 08:51 PM

It has to stop .. it just has to stop .. you run an open mic and every session you get some appalling performers along who (this week grabbed my list out my hand to see who else I had when I said we were full!)

I've tried rigidly enforcing prebooked slots only - partily successful - except your regulars good performers think that doesn't apply to them. I've tried stretching out good floor spots to squeeze em out. I've tried "New faces! - they could be fantastic, they could be crap - oh, it WAS crap! Sorry, my paying audience - we have highs and lows at this club - thank goodness for the highs - even though you might wait weeks and test your powers of endurance, loyalty and patience waiting for them"

Why, oh why, is it in the 'folkish' world we inhabit - is it okay to sing and perform appallingly and think (or not realise) that it is "only fair" that everyone gets a turn - so long as we are keeping the tradition alive or everyone is entitled to a chance, when some people should actually be confined to their bedrooms as a public health hazard?

Why is it learning one chord or strumming and singing out of tune entitles someone to instantly call themselves a MUSICIAN and thus have an EGO that they are good enough to inflict it on everyone, fer krissake? Would any other profession put up with dismal or nonexistent standards? Example - at a concert of World Class musicians and your no-hoper gives you to understand that there is no difference between what they do and what he/she does !!!! Are we just TOO nice to these people? Shouldn't we put them out of our misery?