Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From:
Date: 11 Jan 99 - 10:30 PM

I'd have to go with Pete too, even though there are others I prefer to him. (Although I like him, and am happy to have seen him in concert.) His influence is everywhere, and he made a great many people consider their own regional folk music. People would listen to him, and like it, and say "Gee, didn't gramma and grampa and old uncle Jim used to sing old songs about this area and what the people used to do around here?" So in that respect, I'd have to put him as most influential. Woody Guthrie might fall under this category too.

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: John Hindsill
Date: 11 Jan 99 - 10:24 PM

Following up and amplifying my previous answer--the question is not the best, not the most original, not the one that made the most money, but the most "significant". As far as "performers" go, I stand by my selection. For whatever reason the Kingston Trio did make the breakthrough. Had it not been for the blacklist, it might have been the Weavers six or seven years earlier, but, alas it wasn't. [I would prefer it was.] In much the same way, Harry Belafonte popularized calypso music, a short lived phenomenon, but did he do it best? I think not. So, too KT.

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 11 Jan 99 - 09:56 PM

Right on, Barry! I've been thinking about some of the other entries. If the question were most significant folk performer, I'd certainly give my vote to Pete Seeger. But a lot of what Pete Seeger sang for us he learned from the Archive of Folk Song recordings that Charles and Ruth Crawford Seeger were transcribing from... you guessed it: Lomax field trips. Leadbelly? How would we ever have heard him without the Lomaxes, father and son, although it's a pretty well-known fact that they exploited him along the way.

Where did the Kingston Trio learn the song that catapulted them into the national limelight? From the Frank Proffitt version of "Tom Dula" that Frank Warner had allowed Alan Lomax to publish in Folksong U.S.A. Lomax recorded blues, hollers, worksongs, ballads, lyrics, shape-note hymns, gospel songs, etc.

Through his field work, his writing, his books, his production of early folksong radio shows (introducing Woody Guthrie, Cisco Houston, Burl Ives, etc. to a national audience), his remarkable ability to convince others to help finance what he thought was important, Alan was ultimately responsible for the work of almost every other person/persons suggested by contributors to this thread. That explains my vote.

Sandy

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 11 Jan 99 - 08:42 PM

Ah Sandy, Allan Lomax was the first person to go through my head too. His collecting in the Carribean both songs, folklore & games, his work on the plains & mountains, his collecting & exposure of surviving slave songs from the Georgia Sea Islands & the southern coast line & outer islands, his collecting in the southern US & their prisons lead to almost singlehandly saving the worksongs from those times & places (the few other collecters I think would also owe Lomax a bit of thanks for paving that road). His collecting in Scotland, England & Ireland, IMHO helped to start an international revivel. Although without the likes of Ennis, MacColl, Kennedy & others he wouldn't had any doors opened to him it was what he did afterwards that really had an effect. I just yesterday bought Stuart Frank's "The Book Of Pirate Songs" in the acknowledgements you'll find Lomax as you would in Jackson's collection of Prison songs & Abraham's collection of West Indian shanties. Hugill & Sandburg both refer or talk about Lomax in their collections as well as MacColl in his book on Traveler's songs. He's mentioned in more modern collections than anyone else that I can think of. His work with the Archives was monumental. Above BSeed mentions Leadbelly & Seeger, Big Mick mentions Seeger, Sandy mentions Henderson, O'Boyle, Kennedy, Ennis, MacColl & Lloyd, these were all people that worked, collected or somehow collaborated with Lomax. I don't think that there's one person in the last 100 yrs of folk music who's work has had more of a far reaching affect than Allen's. He's got my vote & admiration. Barry

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Allan S,
Date: 11 Jan 99 - 08:39 PM

I must vote for Pete Segar Tho I cant stand the Buggers politics. groups I like the New Lost City Ramblers

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: dwditty
Date: 11 Jan 99 - 08:31 PM

Hey, what about Box Car Willie?

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: John Hindsill
Date: 11 Jan 99 - 08:28 PM

As far as performers go, hands down it is the Kingston Trio. Yes, they were not the most accomplished musicians; yes, they were quite apolitical (at least until John Stewart); and yes they homogenized folkmusic; but the trio made acceptable the music that enjoyed a tremendous popularity for nearly ten years, and which continues forty years later,

They led the way for PP&M, the Limeliters, etc. The more serious folkies, the Carolyn Hesters, Joan Baez, Judy Collins, Frank Proffitt all profited (pardon the pun) from the interest they sparked.

Are they my favorite group, not by a long shot...but thank heaven for them.

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 11 Jan 99 - 05:21 PM

This thread asks about the most significant folkie of the 20th century. I can see where Guthrie, Seeger and Leadbetter have to be considered, but I can't see any of them being more significant to the genre than Bob Dylan. It can be argued that he moved away from folk when he went electric, but the success of his work caused millions of people to explore other folk music. It also paved the way for a much greater acceptance of folk music, creating an eager audience for many artists who otherwise may have been playing wonderful music in their kitchens.

I am a lover of many kinds of music, but if it weren't for Bob I would never have been compelled to find music by Woody, Leadbelly, Pete Seeger, Bill Monroe etc. and I don't think that Joni Mitchell, Neil Young, Stan Rogers, Gordon Lightfoot(yes I am Canadian) Peter, Paul and Mary etc. would have ever found the airwaves had it not been for Bob creating this market. I will not argue that Bob is the best folkie, but most significant? Absolutely.

Steve Latimer

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: another folkie for Pete
Date: 11 Jan 99 - 05:14 PM

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Ralph Butts
Date: 11 Jan 99 - 05:10 PM

I guess I'd have to go with Seeger, too, though for years I've wanted to stuff his mouth with flannel.

He's certainly enriched the scene with lots of tunes, images and styles, and can therefore be forgiven his politics, "feelingoodallthetimeness", and killing the audience participation goose.

He got lots of us singing......Tiger

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Bob Schwarer
Date: 11 Jan 99 - 04:39 PM

I'll cast my vote for Moses Asch. Think about it. The 2168 records released by Folkways included music from all over the world. Just think what we would have missed without his efforts.

Bob S.

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Bert
Date: 11 Jan 99 - 04:28 PM

I've got to vote for Lonnie Donnegan.
With hit after hit he introduced a whole generation of Brits to the joys of American Folk Song.

Bert.

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Jan 99 - 04:25 PM

What a great thread...I can't stop thinking about it. Everybody has made great points and it's hard to do this in any context and not feel you've overlooked someone.

But Joe, you are right on the money. Pete Seeger is the "thread" of folk music. Maybe some would have never heard of him {or Woody,Lomax,et al.} were it not for PPM, Kingston Trio, etc. But you have to draw the line somewhere and the "washed and unwashed" of folk owe him a lot. Sorry, now I'm getting wordy.

I vote with Joe. catspaw

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: rick fielding (formerly anonymous)
Date: 11 Jan 99 - 04:16 PM

Ahh, to have Sandy Paton agree with my choice (Lomax) is praise indeed, as I believe Sandy knew him for many years. However, I think Burl Ives must rank higher than he probably will, for a number of reasons. It's been pointed out that he was really "commercial", a la Peter Paul and Mary, but wouldn't that be the "later" Burl? All the old 78s that my parents had,seem to have been pretty straight ahead trad, eg. no extra instruments, voices, or "arrangements". Even my wife who prefers Zeppelin's "Hangman" to Leadbelly's remembers hearing old Burl's "foggy Dew etc." while growing up in Glasgow. I'm not saying he was "the best" anything, (actually, once I'd heard a few others ,I found him boring,)but as far as reaching a huge number of people, he's right up there.

By the way Sandy, my anonymity was an oversight caused by the stress of figuring out the html codes. Putting the eminent Mr. Child into the twentieth century is unforgiveable.

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Jack (Who is called Jack)
Date: 11 Jan 99 - 03:21 PM

This is hard to answer because of the term folkie. It makes me want to exclude the likes of long time professional recording artists and songwriters like Dylan or Baez, as well as professional curators like the Lomaxes. I know its irrational but I have an inborn romantic bias towards recognizing the amatuer over the professional in this area. For this reason I submit for consideration Harry Smith, compiler of the Anthology of American Folk Music. Granted his efforts are far less comprehensive than the work of the Lomaxes and their counterparts around the world. Granted also is the fact that Woody Guthrie and Pete Seeger did far more to keep the folk process and folk traditions alive via performance than Smith. And still further I grant that better, more complete collections and better scholarship have been made. Yet the Anthology was unique in that it represented the first easy, and perhaps still best port of entry through which a person to make their initial discovery of the incredibly wide, deep and rich tapestry of American Folk Music.

I realize that this vote is intrinsically biased towards American Folk, but only because thats where I come from and what I know best. Its not out of any intential disregard or lack of recognition of the larger world of folk music and art.

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: --seed
Date: 11 Jan 99 - 02:33 PM

I'd have an awful time justifying any single choice--Seeger is certainly an important one, and Guthrie and Leadbelly and the Carters and Jimmie Rodgers, and because of the dominant place bluegrass music has in the contemporary folk scene, Bill Monroe. --seed

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Jan 99 - 02:30 PM

I just re-read what I wrote. It should have said, "Bless you, Joe". Sorry Joe, got carried away.

Mick

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Jan 99 - 02:28 PM

Damn, Joe, you beat me to it. I went away from this machine and couldn't get this thread out of my mind. I was coming back to write a very similar message. In my own favorite genre, Irish music, I always hate it when a potential customer says, "no rebel songs". I always turn down the gig. How can one sing Irish folk music, without the politics that inspired a great deal of it. Bards throughout the ages, and in every land, have always used their abilities/talents to affect the ideas and politics of the times. And it was Pete, picking up where Woody laid off, that really encouraged this form of political expression. And when one considers the 20th century, who has done more, whether with written lyrics, the songs her performs, the music he published and continues to publish to preserve old forms as well as to encourage the newer forms than Pete Seeger. The reason that I go with him over Gutherie is that Gutherie did his own stuff, but Seeger reached out to all forms, and preservation. Now I would go with Lomax for a close second, but for the very reason you suggested, I couldn't make him #1.

There are so many great artists performing around the world, but for the one that has influenced the various genres on a more universal basis, It has got to be Pete.

All the best,

Mick Lane

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Bruce O.
Date: 11 Jan 99 - 02:19 PM

While I'm not claiming him to be the most significant of the century, I think the folklorist Kenneth Goldstein deserves a lot of credit for getting English, Scottish, and Irish folk singers on phono records for Americans to hear in the 1950's and 60's.

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Joe Offer, Midwesterner in California
Date: 11 Jan 99 - 02:05 PM

I could take my life in my hands and make a case for Peter, Paul, and Mary; the Kingston Trio; Joan Baez; and Bob Dylan - they certainly made more money and touched more people than any of the others. I could pick the Lomaxes and Creightons and Fowkes and Randolph and Sandburg and their ilk, but Greenhaus has a much more comprehensive collection - and collectors don't really touch the hearts of the people (even if we like Greenhaus a whole lot). I could pick Woody Guthrie or Huddie Ledbetter, but they gave us mostly their own songs and performances and touched mostly the first half of the century. Burl Ives was certainly popular and successful, but he always seemed too commercial - even more than PP&M and the other 60's folkies.
I'd like to be equitable and name at least one person from other continents (I did name Canadians), but I can't really think of anyone who has had the universal impact that the North Americans have had.
I think the only choice is Pete Seeger. He has had his feet in both halves of the century, and he has exposed America and the world to a broad spectrum of folk music. He has given us traditional folk songs, the best of the songwriters of this century, and music from all over the world. I think I could also say that it was Pete Seeger, more than anyone else this century, who added a political aspect to folk music - whether that's good or not is another question, but I think it's the truth that it's Pete who brought politics to folk music and folk music to politics. I think his music has told the story of this century.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 11 Jan 99 - 01:16 PM

I'll go along with the anonymous poster above, and vote for Alan Lomax. His influence went beyond his collecting and publishing American traditional music; he also was a major factor in getting Columbia to issue the "Folk and Primitive Music of the World" series (splendid folk music from Italy, Yugoslavia, etc., as well as the English, Irish, and Scottish material now released by Rounder). Without him, I wonder how much of the BBC recorded programmes library would exist, since he was influential in getting them to sponsor collecting by Seamus Ennis and Sean O'Boyle in Ireland, Hamish Henderson in Scotland, Peter Kennedy in England, and others, including MacColl and Lloyd. As a result of his work we have the superb Caedmon series, plus the Southern Journey American material that is now seeing new life through Rounder, (bless 'em all).

However, I'd like to pay homage to Cecil Sharp as well, for his collecting and publishing folksong and dance lore in England as well as in Appalachia. Hius pioneer work had a profound influence on almost every collector of American folksong since. But I realize this is an international forum, and his influence elsewhere was probably less significant. Child, by the way, did his work in the last century, not this one. Good idea, anonymous, wrong century.

Sandy

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Jan 99 - 12:01 PM

Bill,

I have started to answer this, and your inquiry from the "condom" thread three times. Each time I have had to stop and rethink. I will answer it, but I must think it through. Here are my problems. It depends on how one arrives at "most significant". If body of work still extant and relevant is the criteria, then Gutherie wins, hands down. But I don't think that is comprehensive enough. I would consider artists who rescue a genre from obscurity, dust it off and pass it on to be extremely significant. An example would be O'Riada saving the planxty's of O'Carolan for us today. So I am going to have to think this one through.

Just a comment on your reference to US performers. I am not saying this with any rancor, so please do not take it that way. I feel it is not a necessary distinction in our international online community. While we "Yanks" can be oblivious to the rest of the world, we also have contributed to the folk scene mightily. And the best folkies in the US are not the ones with the biggest names and the most money. Consider if you will Thieme, the Patons, Bok, Muir, Trickett,Milner and so on. Each of our neighbors here on the 'Cat can contribute names of the best from the country they come from.

I really enjoy your posts,my friend, and this is going to be an interesting thread.

Mick

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From:
Date: 11 Jan 99 - 11:50 AM

Hi All

I started this thread because of the boring stuff being discussed. The only time I want to know where your from is so that we can gauge opinions based, to some degree, on where your from.

So.............

Last message.

Where are you from?

Bill

Subject: RE: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From:
Date: 11 Jan 99 - 11:44 AM

Really hard to narrow it down to one name. Certainly strong arguments could be made for Pete Seeger, Woody Guthrie, Burl Ives (ask your parents, and their parents)or F J Child.

I'd put my vote in for Alan Lomax, however, for several reasons: Sheer longevity, songs collected (with his dad) that are now part of the repertoire, international influence, (he lived in Britain for a few years and was credited by MacColl as a major influence) introduction to the (folk) masses of several major artists, and sheer force of personality. I never met him, but EVERYONE I've talked to who has, was affected by him.

Subject: Most significant Folkie of 20th Century?
From:
Date: 11 Jan 99 - 11:27 AM

Hi ALL

Who has had the biggest impact, and why?

I'm a Pom living in Australia. (And I'm sorry if it offends anyone) but I'm not usualy a great fan of American stuff. They're normally not better..... They just have more money to advertise and push it forward.

But to me it's still, Woodie Guthrie. What do you think?

Bill