BS: So Who is Our New President?

Subject: RE: BS: So Who is Our New President?
From: GUEST,Chris Nixon - puzzled in the UK
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 03:04 PM

Has it occurred to anyone that in the event of your being unable competently to elect a new head of state, you should revert to colonial status and be governed direct from the Court of St James. See how you like OUR band of thieves liars and fools. You could, however, declare a new public holiday for the 23rd November - Indecision Day... All our trials Lord... Chris

Subject: RE: BS: So Who is Our New President?
From: Gary T
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 03:00 PM

Walrus, on re-reading your post, I thought it might be helpful to clear up the mention of "seats". The election under discussion has nothing to do with seats in the legislature. It is strictly for selection of the president. The legislature does not routinely elect the president, although the job can fall to the legislature if the normal Electoral College process fails in certain ways. It's quite rare for that to happen (twice in 200+ years, I believe), but there's some chance it could happen this go-round.

The legislature is elected as follows:

Senators, who represent the state as a whole, are elected by statewide vote. Each state has 2 senators, serving in the Senate.

Congressmen are elected by a portion of the state in a voting area called a Congressional District. The number of congressmen varies with the population of the state (some states have but one, Florida has 23, California has--I dunno, a whole bunch). Congressmen serve in the House of Representatives.

The NUMBER of presidential electors from a given state equals the NUMBER of senators and congressmen combined (in Florida, 2+23=25). However, they are not the same people. Presidential electors perform their function only in a presidential election, every four years. Senators and congressmen, of course, do their job throughout their terms.

Subject: RE: BS: So Who is Our New President?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 02:43 PM

He is some politician!

CB

Subject: RE: BS: So Who is Our New President?
From: mousethief
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 02:23 PM

I also heard that Nader, not wanting to be left out of the lawsuit jamboree, filed suit in federal court. Unfortunately due to a glitch in the legal wording on the lawsuit, he ended up suing himself. If he wins, all the votes awarded Buchanan will be given to Ross Perot; if he loses, all the votes awarded Michael Dukakis will be given to Pat Paulsen.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: So Who is Our New President?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 02:20 PM

Wlarus - The winner of a state (by even just one vote) gets all of the votes of that state. That is the way our Electoral College works. The vote is not actually tied in FL. here is a small majority for Bush among those votes deemed as valid and counted. The argument is whether or not additional votes can be deemed valid and therefore counted, if the definition of valid votes is modified. So far that process still has Bush clinging to a small majority - so the courts over ruled the time frames set for polling by the state of Florida - and now that ytime has run out. Florida has completed its election and certified the results. Gore has challenged that election in Florida courts. Bush has challenged in Federal court the Florida Supreme Court's decision to extend the election dates and expand the vote counting criteria. There are a few lesser court issues pending, and it is likely that the US federal court (our Supreme Court) will make a watershed decision for all of the other cases. If it finds for Bush, that the Florida Supreme Court overstepped its bounds by extending the election process, itis unlikely that Gore has any further reasonable chances. If it finds for Gore, that the Florida Supreme Court made a decision within its legal bounds then there will follow a series of legal machinations; the Florida legislature has the over-riding authority over the elction process and will likely appoint the Electors (and therefore the electoral votes) and that will almost cetrainly be a Bush win. If that happens, Gore will challenge that decision, probably in Florida court first - then in US Supreme court. At any rate - these court decisions, frustrating as it is to wait for them, will likely be the best way to solve an election that is so close the winner is selected within the margin of error! The good news is that (the glass is half full) BOTH candidates got more vote then the winner of the last two presidential elections. While you and I may not like one, we can pretty darn sure that our neighbor does!

Subject: RE: BS: So Who is Our New President?
From: Gary T
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 02:17 PM

Walrus, the president is elected by the states through their electors. The individual states administer the elections, though on a day specified by federal law. While a few states apportion their electors on a pro-rata basis as you have mentioned, the overwhelming majority use a "winner take all" system. I would presume that the logic behind this is to maximize the state's voting power for a given candidate. For example, if a state had 6 electors, the popular vote in that state were a 50-50 split, and it apportioned its electoral votes 3-3, that state would cancel its own votes and have no actual influence on who won. By giving all 6 of its votes to whomever had the most popular votes, if even by the smallest margin, that state has the potential to make a difference in who gets elected.

If every state apportioned its electors on a pro-rata basis, presidential elections would for all intents and purposes be decided by nationwide popular vote, making the Electoral College unnecessary. While there is certainly debate (and has been for years) over the pros and cons of the Electoral College system, the most effective way for any individual state to participate in it is by the "winner take all" method.

Subject: RE: BS: So Who is Our New President?
From: Jim Krause
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 02:14 PM

Job share? A Democrat and a Republican? What with both parties fightin' for the political center, and the Senate evenly split 50/50 with that Maria Whatsername from Washington State the brand new Senator, what's the point? You ain't seen no gridlock like this here gridlock. I don't even think the next Prez. will have his cabinet in place before the next midterm elections in 2002. Dubyah or Al, makes no difference, really.

Jim Krause
Mudcatter formerlyknownas Soddy

Subject: RE: BS: So Who is Our New President?
From: Kim C
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 01:57 PM

Maybe they could do a job-share. One gets to be President in the odd months, the other in the even. As neither one is hurting for money, it should be no problem to split the salary. :)

Subject: RE: BS: So Who is Our New President?
From: The Walrus at work
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 01:51 PM

Seriously, can somebody explain to me (a somewhat confused Brit) how there is effectively a tied ballot throughout the state and yet one candidate gets ALL 25 seats for the state<1>. I'd have thought the logical method would have been one seat per 4% of the total vote (or 1 per 5% and the rest allocated with the majority to the "winner" - if there is one). Am I missing something?

Regards

Walrus

<1> A sinngle seat, no problem, but 25 seats on a "winner takes all" basis?

Subject: RE: BS: So Who is Our New President?
From: mousethief
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 01:45 PM

We don't have a new president until January 20. Until then we have a president-elect. Or two president-elects. Or two president-not-elects. Whatever.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: So Who is Our New President?
From: MMario
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 12:59 PM

actually kim, sounds better then most of the alternatives.

Subject: RE: BS: So Who is Our New President?
From: Kim C
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 12:56 PM

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but in EVERY election there are mucked-up ballots that are disqualified for whatever reason. I guess it's just because this one is so close that people are paying more attention. But not EVERY vote counts EVERY time. Sometimes they are thrown out. That's just the way that is. Sorry.

No matter who gets the office, the other party is going to be finger-pointing for the next 4 years and frankly I hate that sort of behavior from adults who ought to know better.

In true Napoleonic tradition, I hereby crown myself Princess Svetlana of Antioch, Keeper of the Holy Giant Spoon of Discipline. A keg in every cellar, a chicken in every pot (or a tofu chicken for you vegetarians), and a song on every ear. Misbehave and you get a whack with the Spoon.

Hell, it sounds about as good as the alternatives...

Subject: RE: BS: So Who is Our New President?
From: Margo
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 12:49 PM

No no. She certified the votes,and Bush having more than Gore, the 25 Electoral votes go to Bush. The Electoral college meets in December. They actually can vote for Gore, but such a thing is not likely, as it would mean political suicide for those electors who did. But there is a possibility that the electoral college can't decided who to vote for and then the decision making is handed over to Congress. Congress would need a simple majority to decide, so it is likely that they would decide republican, because of the majority. So I think it's almost safe to say it will be Bush. (But you never know...) Margo

Subject: RE: BS: So Who is Our New President?
From: Gary T
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 12:29 PM

Who is our new president? Okay, I give up--who?

Can Harris do that? Well sure, why not? She could be reversed by the courts or (theoretically) the legislature, and no one can force the electors to vote their pledge, but as far as I know her actions have been within the law.

Subject: RE: BS: So Who is Our New President?
From: Wesley S
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 12:27 PM

I can't remember - it was either Tweedledee or Tweedledumb that won. I have a hard time telling them apart.

Subject: RE: BS: So Who is Our New President?
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 11:47 AM

This particular presidency is so tainted it's amazing either of them would want it. Whoever gets it will be a one termer. Might as well give it to George. That'll guarantee a Democratic majority in the House after the elections in two years.

Funny, I thought he just wanted to be baseball commissioner.

Bat Goddess

Subject: RE: BS: So Who is Our New President?
From: The Shambles
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 05:38 AM

Thank you Giac. I wondered where I had seen that face before.

I think I will worry, though............

Subject: RE: BS: So Who is Our New President?
From: kendall
Date: 27 Nov 00 - 11:35 PM

A year? it wont take him nearly that long. They have football pools, why not a stumble pool?

Subject: RE: BS: So Who is Our New President?
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Nov 00 - 11:17 PM

Bush is acting like he expects a crown....he is being so arrogant about it all that a few Republicans are embarassed....I suppose he WILL be inaugrated...but it will be fun to watch him make a blooming fool of himself...(I'll bet $1.00 he doesn't make it thru the first year without a major bumble!)......

Subject: RE: BS: So Who is Our New President?
From: Giac
Date: 27 Nov 00 - 09:31 PM

Who is our president?

Alfred E. Bushman.

What, Me Worry?

Subject: RE: BS: So Who is Our New President?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Nov 00 - 08:06 PM

Can't you just see it. A nice non-controversial electiion, and the result comes out on time, and the loser concedes and the winner gets down to it. And then ten days kater or so they rush out and say "Sorry folks, we've just added in the absentee votes and it's the other guy that won after all."

Is there any other democratic country where they announce the result of an election before the votes have even arrived, let alone been counted?

And where it would be possible for a candidate to successfully sabotage a recount because he thinks he might actually have fewer votes than his opponent if they are all counted? Can't you get impeached for pulling something like that?

Subject: RE: BS: So Who is Our New President?
From: Amos
Date: 27 Nov 00 - 08:05 PM

Every message from the Bush campaign that I heard was about forcing a win on the strength of situational vagaries which reeked of influence.

Every message I heard from the Gore campaign was about cleaving to a principle of allowing individual votes to make a difference.

I wish the issue before the Supreme Court was framed differently, so they could exercise some intelligence about the fundamentals (if they wouyld). As it is, while it makes terrific drama, the real upshot is possibly beyond their sphere of influence.

I thought Lieberman was downright statesmanlike. While I have always had misgivings about Al, they are as nought compared to the whirlwind of loathing Bush's cronies elicit in my litte heart.

A

Subject: RE: BS: So Who is Our New President?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 27 Nov 00 - 07:55 PM

We can never again say that oure vote counts. Barry

Subject: RE: BS: So Who is Our New President?
From: Banjer
Date: 27 Nov 00 - 07:44 PM

Who would you expect to get the vote regardless of how many votes there were for the opposition. His brother is the Governor of the state, and this Harris was one of his (G.W's) campaign workers. All of a sudden we heard that Dade had shut down their manual recount before finishing. That tells me they had enough votes to put Gore over the top and were pressured to drop it. All this proves to me is that the biggest of the two crooks prevailed.
Does any of this make anyone but myself wonder how, in years and elections past, the winner was declared the next day. If there are seven days for absentee ballots yet to come in how can a winner be declared so fast? Does that show that all those absentee ballots were just ignored and thrown out? I would love to be able to go back into some records and see who REALLY won some of our earlier elections. Just one more GOOD reason to not trust our government or any of its shennanigans.

Subject: RE: BS: So Who is Our New President?
From: harpgirl
Date: 27 Nov 00 - 07:28 PM

...I can't wait to read what Katha Pollit has to say about Katherine Harris!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: So Who is Our New President?
From: harpgirl
Date: 27 Nov 00 - 07:15 PM

...geez McGrath...I was hoping you would have an interesting ten paragraph answer for all the winter depressives to get revved up about! You are uncharacteristically terse!

Subject: RE: BS: So Who is Our New President?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Nov 00 - 07:08 PM

A president elected by one woman. Wow...

Subject: So Who is Our New President?
From: harpgirl
Date: 27 Nov 00 - 06:58 PM

Dear Abby,

...I've just returned from S Florida and I can't figure out who our next president is. Katherine Harris said she gave the election to Bush and told the Electoral College to give him the votes. Can she do that?

Signed, harpgirl