BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: GUEST,de
Date: 14 Apr 02 - 01:11 AM

Messages moved to part 2 of this thread. Can't you idiots read?
If you post any more messages to this thread, I'll not bother moving them. I'll just delete them.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: GUEST,Annraoi
Date: 06 Apr 02 - 06:50 PM

Refresh

---

This thread is too long to load, so I'm closing it and will move or delete any additional messages.
Please go to Part 2
Thanks
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: GUEST,Annraoi
Date: 06 Apr 02 - 06:03 AM

Uglier is right!
Priests are now being pre-judged and - condemned by nasty implication. May I quote Guest (anonymous, naturally!):
"A PRIEST who died after driving his car into the sea will be buried today in the grounds of the church where he was parish priest for the last seven years. Fr Michael O'Grady, 58, will be buried on the grounds of St Michael's Church in Tubber, Co Clare, two days after he drove off the pier in Liscannor."
Given the rabid anti-Catholic tone of this thread which is using - I strongly suspect - the horrendous and disgusting incidents of child abuse as an excuse to attack the Church, this unfortunate priest presumed to have been a paedophile.
The truth is not quite as salacious nor exciting. The unfortunate man had a history of psychiatric disorder and clinical depression. Not the slightest hint of paedophilia had ever been linked to his name.
I now await the apologies from all those on this list who jumped to the wrong conclusion
I won't hold my breath during the wait.
God rest his soul.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: GUEST,fo
Date: 06 Apr 02 - 01:04 AM

This is getting UGLIER by the hour. Friday 04/05/02v http://www.latimes.com

A series of recent confidential e-mails written by Los Angeles Cardinal Roger M. Mahony paints a picture of a sometimes-agitated archbishop alarmed that he is losing public relations ground in the sexual abuse scandal.

The e-mails, leaked to radio station KFI, which provided copies to The Times, show how pervasively the nationwide child abuse scandal in the Catholic Church has affected the Los Angeles Archdiocese.

Mahony and his inner circle are forced to confront where to place a priest newly accused of molesting children; whether the church should start a victims group; how to anticipate and counteract media accusations; how to give "instruction" in child-abuse law to Los Angeles Police Chief Bernard C. Parks, and how many weeks or months must pass before a "healing" process in the church begins.

Much of the communication focuses on the archdiocese's scramble to cut public relations losses amid growing demands that Mahony disclose the names of all priests he had fired for molesting minors.

In one case, a top Mahony advisor recommends that the cardinal remain deliberately vague about where eight priests served before Mahony fired them in February. While Mahony told The Times in a separate interview that none of the priests were in parish ministries, the e-mail from Msgr. Craig Cox, vicar for clergy, says that some did serve on a part-time basis in parishes.

The e-mails also show Mahony and his inner circle attempting to promptly cooperate with police on new allegations of sexual abuse by priests. The communications also reveal that:

* A Fresno woman has made a "claim" against Mahony, and that a 40-page transcript is in the hands of the Fresno Police Department. The Times on Friday was told by Fresno police Lt. Keith Foster that his department is investigating an accusation involving Mahony. Mahony was auxiliary bishop of Fresno beginning in 1975 and it was unclear whether he was accused of failing to deal with an offense of another priest, or was directly involved in the alleged incident.

* Mahony was so agitated by the archdiocese's failure to turn over some names of several dismissed priests to police that he warned his general counsel that he might be subpoenaed by a grand jury.

"If we don't, today, "consult" with the [detective] about those three names, I can guarantee you that I will get hauled into a Grand Jury proceeding and I will be forced to give all the names, etc.," Mahony wrote to Sister Judy Murphy.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 11:12 PM

It has reached to archbishops and cardinals - might it also reach to the Pope Himself?

A PRIEST who died after driving his car into the sea will be buried today in the grounds of the church where he was parish priest for the last seven years. Fr Michael O'Grady, 58, will be buried on the grounds of St Michael's Church in Tubber, Co Clare, two days after he drove off the pier in Liscannor.

The priest left the village, located just five miles off the main Limerick to Galway road in North Clare, for the last time on Thursday morning. He had just finished celebrating the 9.15am mass in his church.

He left Tubber before 10pm and drove his silver Toyota car to the coastal village of Liscannor. His car was seen plunging into the sea one hour later.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 02:33 PM

A Roman Catholic priest,Rev. Don A. Rooney,48, shot himself to death in his car three days after being accused of molesting a girl two decades ago, authorities said Friday.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From:
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 02:31 PM

Polish church officials presented charges of sexual misconduct against Archbishop of Poznan, Juliusz Paetz, who resigned last week.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 01:30 PM

Cardinal Roger M. Mahony of the Los Angeles Archdiocese told one of his lawyers in a recent e-mail dated March 27 that the diocese made 'our big mistake' by not turning over three cases involving priests accused of wrongdoing to the LAPD.

"If I recall, of the 8 priests involved, 5 have already been reported to local law enforcement agencies," Mahony wrote. "That leaves 3."

That and other e-mails emerged at the center of an extraordinary legal debate late Thursday night,April 04, 2002, as a lawyer for the archdiocese sought to prevent publication of e-mails between Mahony and his lawyer pertaining to the sexual misconduct of priests.

The move by the archdiocese represented a highly unusual attempt to block publication of information that it considered sensitive. Such moves, known as "prior restraints," almost never are granted by courts, and when they are, they almost inevitably are overturned on appeal.

The e-mails that the archdiocese was seeking to keep secret include communications between Mahony and his staff, including his lawyers.

In one, Mahony urged that his lawyers and aides meet with a police detective and clarify that all priests implicated with possible wrongdoing had been discussed with authorities. In addition to the five priests already reported to authorities, Mahony suggested that three more needed to be discussed with police.

Excerpts from Los Angeles Times 04/05/02

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 06:14 PM

Many years ago I came across a book titled something like "A History of Celibacy in the Catholic Church." The main point I remember was that celibacy for Roman Catholic priests and bishops was made a rule in response to heresy -- not in response to orthodox teachings and tradition. Apparently the Manicheans or a similar group of gnostics were gaining followers by claiming the body and sex were evil while the spirit/soul and celibacy were good. These heretics required their priests to be celibate and attacked orthodox Christianity as being merely disguised hedonism.

Instead of upholding orthodoxy and its affirmation of the body as a wonderful and good part of God's creation, the Roman Church joined the heretics in requiring celibacy for its priests and bishops.

It is my humble opinion that when we stray from God's ultimate purposes, things can go horribly wrong. Celibacy was wrongly imposed on clergy in response to heresy. Thus the problems currently being experienced by the RC Church are a result of that error. Celibacy is a calling which must be chosen and not required. I pray that the RC Church will adjust their ordination policies to reflect orthodoxy and permit its priest and bishops to be married.

The Rev. Fr. John W. Westcott III Anglican Church of the Ascension Bloomfield, Conn.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 02:18 AM

In my view, sexual molestation of children is the grossest, most perverted offense imaginable. It's the most severe violation of a young person's respect and dignity, thwarting healthy emotional, psychological and spiritual development, and often causing irreparable damage.

I blame the guilty pedophiles for their heinous crimes. But I also blame the media for making pedophilia seem unique to the Catholic Church. Unfortunately, sexual abuse of children happens in churches, seminaries and offices of virtually all religions and professions.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 08:37 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: GUEST,BH
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 01:28 AM

the newspapers are reporting that the names of the offending parties were recorded with the appropriate police departments.

All is now Kosher.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 29 Mar 02 - 06:12 AM

Still cherishing the oft-flouted convention that continuation threads should be started when we reach the 100-posts mark, I have posted a response to Joe/Annraoi etc at BS: Catholic Bishop & Priest PART 2.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From:
Date: 28 Mar 02 - 11:51 PM

Well, I try to be a good and loyal catholic, but there's no reaction but sorrow and horror. The crimes have to be prosecuted as crimes, very publically. And then some seriously overdue housekeeping, with lots of light and fresh air. But for that second part of it -- issues of celibacy, hierarchy, authority that everybody seems to have an opinion about-- I guess I don't appreciate commentators from Time and CNN weighing in with their wise advice on how to run a church whose faith and obligations they have no intention of sharing. Women don't like to be lectured by men about what's wrong with women, blacks don't like to be told by whites how they ought to run their communities, and I'd ask the same thing for Catholics. As has been pointed out, this is not something peculiar to the Catholic church (which doesn't in any way lessen the seriousness of our problem), but lots of folks want to chime in. I sometimes feel, watching media representations and discussions of Catholicism that it's one of the few places where progressively minded people still feel at liberty to exercise the natural human vice of bigotry.

Subject: ADD: Boston Scandals
From:
Date: 28 Mar 02 - 10:03 PM

here is my song..tune is Boston Burglar

BOSTON SCANDALS

I am a Boston grandmother Catholic as can be
I never thought I'd see the day my church would fail me
My other sons were different hoodlums one and all
But little Aloysius I prayed would hear the call

I can see him on the altar with his bright and shining face
I wish I'd never let him set a foot within that place
What went on in that sacristy was a great and mortal sin
And now they're coming forward our boys who grew to men

Put the priests in jail and slam the iron door
And tell the other prisoners just what they're in there for
Then toss in the bishops and throw away the key
If I had my druthers they would never be set free

We went to our devotions the priest said let us pray
I guess we all know now it could be spelled another way
God protect the faithful who listened to them preach
And God protect the little boys who fell within their reach

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Mar 02 - 09:54 PM

Butch,

I did not curse the Church. I was stating my opinion about organised religion. Of course, the Catholic Church has been THE main organised religion in the western world for a very long time.

Of course there have been many good works by individual members of the Church.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: GUEST,Annraoi
Date: 28 Mar 02 - 09:36 PM

A young Catholic priest ordained on March 28th 1997 in Co. Galway.
His first appointment to Uganda.
Shot to death with two companions by two soldiers of the Ugandan Army last week.
Buried in his home village Co.Galway March 28th 2002.
His is the other side of the coin. But who weeps for him, apart from us, his family?
Annraoi

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Mar 02 - 07:26 PM

"...when the complainant was 17 or 18 years old, and the priest was 7 years older. Joe Offer

This sounds like an almost totally different thing from what is currently in the news. Statutory rape, perhaps, homosexual, definitely, but not pedophilic. A child of 12 or 14, not to even mention an 8 year old, is in a very different life stage than is a 17 or 18-year-old young adult.

Sure, it is still an abuse of power and it may still be hurtful, but it's hard for me to see that that encounter will have a lasting effect. The 18 year old is old enough, or should be, to have some insight into the matter.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Amergin
Date: 28 Mar 02 - 01:41 PM

maybe they did happen a long time ago...but the pain of those victims do not lessen with age. the scars are still there.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Mar 02 - 11:58 AM

Yesterday's paper had a story about a priest I know pretty well. It was an allegation about something that happened in the mid-1970's, when the complainant was 17 or 18 years old, and the priest was 7 years older. The complaint was filed in 1991, and the complainant was paid $25,000 and agreed to make no public statements. Now that this other stuff has come out, the complainant contacted the newspaper.

There was a $5 million lawsuit filed against the same priest in 1985, which might add a bit of credibility to the other complaint. The diocese settled out of court, and the priest was moved out of the area and given an administrative job for 14 years. He returned to the diocese in 1999, but only after what the diocese claims were extensive psychological testing and examination. He has not been permitted to work in functions where he would have contact with children.

I don't know what to think. I like this guy, and I've found him to be a good man. He's brilliant, and very insightful. The incidents happened 15 and 25 years ago. How long does he have to pay?

Yes, I think this sort of conduct by priests is deplorable and I have sympathy for the victims - but the witch hunt is going on now, and the incidents happened so long ago.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 05:00 PM

Still no song....

I think what is required is called:

"REFORMATION"

Look up Martin Luther.

I see abuse of power within many organizations and churches of many religions. One example is of my wifes parish -catholic- wherein the assistant priest regularly wins the church lottery numbers game which he infact himself runs.

It is unfortunate that little dictatorships like parishes and churches can exist and thrive in our democracy. The way they are operated is not a good example to the children.

As a protestant I make no claims for the sanctity of any other organization run by imperfect humans however, knowing both churches I can safely say that my wife's parish is more insainly dictatorial than any other Organization that I have encountered. To a certain extent the church should be reformed so that it is more careful across the board to convey fair policys and democratic principals as well as good moral examples to our children.

But come on now....we should have some songs here about this topic.... Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 10:36 PM

Ebbie, you ask: "Why can't pedophiles, at least, be weeded out BEFORE being accepted into the priesthood?"

I think that may well touch on why this goes on and on. Think about WHO may be in charge of the "weeding".

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 09:23 PM

Did you see last night's 'Nightline'? A former (defrocked) priest was on- and he's just about the first man that I've heard put the emphasis of harm where it belongs: on the children. (So many of these people who are being interviewed seem to feel something like, 'Yes, it's bad and must not be allowed, but on the other hand the church does a lot of good and we must not impugn the innocent...'And they always seem to imply that 'innocent' refers to a priest.)

This man said that in his own case it was as though he had compartmentalized his being during those years (20-22 of them), which allowed him to do it, and it was not until he was eventually caught and exposed, so to speak, by a nun housekeeper that he changed.

He too made the point, as someone did above, that there's a major difference in the rate of recidivism between pedophiles or those who are merely homosexual. He said that the person who sees a prepubescent child as a sexual object is not a good candidate for reclamation.

So. Why can't pedophiles, at least, be weeded out BEFORE being accepted into the priesthood? As many and subtle personality profiles as there are nowadays, surely there is one designed to show up those seminary applicants who are turned on by the defenseless? (Shouldn't be too difficult, frankly) There are probably a battery of tests already that an applicant takes to establish spiritual, mental and emotional fitness for such a life. There should be, anyway.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 09:17 PM

All of this stuff and hardly a line of song....surely this issue demands our best efforts at extending the tradition by at least one good song about the scandals....

Give it a try!

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: GUEST,johntm
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 08:56 PM

Fionn That sounds like The Children's Hour with James Gardner and I forget the other woman star...Remake of an earlier version with Joel McCrae...out of Lillian Hellman I think

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 08:02 PM

Sorry to take a second bite of the cherry, but I've been meaning to say that I am not unheeding of the "false claims" problem - though I am pleased that the pendulum has swung at last towards favouring the accusers. But my concern is more for the falsely accused than for the church's ill-gotten riches.

The question of false accusation reminds me of a film I've not seen mentioned in many years, The Loudest Whisper, starring Shirley Maclaine among others. As far as I remember religion was not a factor, but it was a long time ago. (And the subject was lesbianism, not child abuse.)

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 07:36 PM

Thanks for posting again, Joe, and helpfully again. I take all your points, and must learn to temper my histrionic tongue because it must sometimes offend those I don't mean to offend (though you have been graceful enough not to take me to task).

On the question of balance, I suspect that you will be nearly as disconcerted as me that all the cardinals who will decide the next pope have been appointed by the present incumbent. But I should not try to put words in your mouth.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: InOBU
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 04:24 PM

Hiya Folks... I don't think it is the Irish link, but may be the hierachy link... We Quakers are almost as much Irish as English, and don't have lots of sexual abuse of kids in our meetings, as far as I have seen, and we have teen weekends and lots of other events where kids are with older Quakers at camps of one kind or another. This is why when we were, in my meeting, putting aside the term for our respected members who help advise others, who had been called elders (a term I like) then were called overseers, a term we recently rejected for it's slavery days conotations (not at all concected to our use of it, but we acknowlege in my meeting there is pain associated with the word....) BUT NOW we have what is called a Pastoral Care committee... my great fear is the introduction of the persception of a Quaker cleargy, for the reasons we see above, the perception of power is sometimes abused, and if we have not had that problem, lets not come close to inviting it in... now I don't say this as being anti-Catholic, but it is just a matter of us not messing about with a system that seems to work... I like elders, as a term, as it avoids the fuedal power with cleary may have inherited by historical hapenstance.
Good luck friends, Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Pseudolus
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 03:18 PM

Clearly I must have missed your previous post, I do apologize....OK, I really need to get a grip on this issue. Two posts, two apologies, I'm gonna start counting to ten first!!

Have you ever heard a story on the news that was horrifying already, and then you find out the perpetrator was a father or mother or uncle or aunt or priest or someone else who the child would blindly trust.....and your heart just sinks even more? I guess that is why the issue is so hard for me. A mother drowns her kids, a priest molests a child or a man kills a child because of his anger towards the childs mother. I am sad when anyone is wronged or hurt but it is especially hard when it's the ones who we are supposed to protect....our children. It's weird because no one in my family (at least that I know of) has had any issues like these and yet it stirs up a fury in me when I hear about it that's hard to describe.

Hopefully this explains the short fuse a little.....

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 03:15 PM

Fionn, I wouldn't pin it directly on the "Irish factor" in the Catholic Church. I think that within the Catholic Church, as within most other organizations, there are two different "models" operating - an authoritive/ideological model, and an individualistic/philosophical model. The history of any organization includes the story of the conflict and change of balance between these two models.

Many people look to an organization for structure, stability, and direction - these people feel more comfortable in life when they can look to a higher authority for direction, to be told what to do in life. There are those who seek positions of authority so that they can give the orders these people seek, and fewer who seek authority so they can guide people to think their own thoughts. People who adhere to this model, both leaders and followers, tend to assume that their organization is never wrong, which is a deadly flaw. I suppose that this model can be more dominant in the Irish Catholic Church, but there is also a strong element of this model among many Catholics in the U.S. I also see this model as dominant in the Roman Catholic Church in Africa, the location of phenominal growth for the Catholic Church in the last 50 years.

Then there are those within an organization who prefer to think their own thoughts, although they may be philosophically in alignment with the general focus and history and traditions of the organization. People who adhere to this model expect to see politics and disagreement and flaws in their organization. The authoritarian/ideologues may see these people as disloyal to the organization, but these people are much less likely to leave the organization in times of crisis. they expect problems, so it's natural for them to want to stick around and work to solve the problems when they occur.

I think it's natural for every organization to have members from each of these perspectives, and it's never a comfortable coexistence. Outsiders and ideologues may look on it as disunity. I look on it as human nature.

Where do the Pope and bishops stand in this picture? I think they're a lot less monolitic than people think. Some hold the authoritarian model, some the philosophical one - but most hold elements of both.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: GUEST,johntm
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 01:03 PM

Frank: No the problem is there. The way the hierarchy has dealt with the problem has made it worse. I had suggested in an earlier message that something in the Irish Catholic mindset or the Irish Catholic leadership of the Church might be causing these abuses. The information about Yale suggests that my earlier message wrong. That the issue is as others have said not limited to or peculiar to the Irish "Church".

Obviously a comparison with Yale does not exonerate (sp?) anyone. The article by Anne Coulter and the op ed piece in the WSJ stress that most of the cases involve priests and older teenagers. Pedophiles are a very small percentage, although the grab the headlines. Again I am not excusing the behavior because it involves teenagers, nor am I taking off after homosexuals. I was commenting on my own comments on news. John M

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Pseudolus
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 12:35 PM

johntm,

Um, so percentage-wise we're right in line with the Yale faculty, and that proves.....what exactly? The Yale faculty should be worried? Or perhaps the Catholic church should not consider this a problem considering we're right there with the professors at Yale?

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Pseudolus
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 11:28 AM

Joe, Perhaps we agree more than I originally thought and I do apologize for jumping down your throat. I suppose this subject fires me up more than most. In any case I agree whole-heartedly with the compensation part of your post. I believe that justice needs to be done, but in the US at least, folks are so "sue-happy" that millions of dollars seems to pass hands sometimes without any proof......more like quiet money than compensation. I don't know the answer, I wish I did, but I too wish for more balance.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: GUEST,johntm
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 11:06 AM

Ditto this link to an ann coulter piece http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=108&u=/020322/51/1ahfb.html

which includes this

Even in the midst of the Catholic Church's current scandals -- including decades-old cases -- the Catholic clergy has about the same percentage of perverts as the Yale faculty. There are more than 45,000 priests in America and, so far, 55 exposed abusers. There are 836 tenured professors at Yale, and one proved child molester -- convicted just last month.

Maybe the flood of information is distorting our views

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: GUEST,johntm
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 10:40 AM

Interesting op ed piece in today's Wall Street Journal by a Philip Jenkins, professor of history and religious studies at Pennsylvania State University. He argues that the problem is largely an American one because vocations are rising in Latin America and Africa, and there have not been same level of abuse in those areas. In USA standards were relaxed in the 70s and 60s to make up for declining vocations. Most cases involve older teenagers and so should be described not as pedophila but homosexual. As global organization, Catholic Church unlikely to change views on celibacy given popularity of its conservative views in third world, while US accounts for only 6% of all Catholics. He suggests the whole issue is being used by liberals and conservative Catholics within US to push their own agendas re celibacy and other issues.

NY Post has an article saying that abuse in Orthodox Jewish communinities is even worse and easier to conceal because it is such a closed society.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: GUEST,DMcG at work
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 10:13 AM

Butch: Speaking only for myself here - and as a Catholic - I don't think said I had any objection to Roman Catholic theology. It is the way it is put into practice that concerns me, and to find out my concerns about that, I suggest you go back at the top of the thread and start reading again!

Unless there is a major new announcement, I intend to join gnu now in quiet contemplation. See you!

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Butch
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 09:34 AM

I do not ask this out of any desire to offend anyone, but what in Roman Catholic theology do you find immoral and why? I ask this to learn, not to cause a flame.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: GUEST,DMCG at work
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 09:09 AM

Welcome back, gnu! It takes courage to apologise like that and I for one appreciate it (even though you didn't offend me!)

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: gnu
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 08:56 AM

mgarvey and others I offended early on in this thread... I have watched the news with sadness and disbelief over the past week or so. I was shocked at the initial post, but, having been more shocked at the lurid details of actual admissions by trusted spiritual leaders, I apologize. I realize this is not the first time this has come to light, but the magnitude is bothersome and can't be swept aside as "a few bad apples".

Again, my apologies. I had no idea that your postulate was supported by actual incidents, and, apparently, my faith closed my mind to the fact that such could be true. I have not followed this thread, nor will I... it sickens me so.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: GUEST,DMcG at work
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 08:11 AM

Butch: I see a lot of good as well, but the consequences of protecting the bad are severe. Leaving aside the specifics of the pedophile business, there is a tremendous need at the moment for contemplation of the moral issues arising from a whole range of subjects - virtually everything arising from the field of genetic manipulation, for example. In the ideal world I, as a Catholic, would be looking to the Church for a considered reaction on this. But I cannot look for moral guidance to an organisation where behaving in a way I regard as immoral is standard behaviour. In short, I think the Church has squandered its moral authority by its attitude and approach to a whole range of sex-related subjects and the unwillingness to adopt a firm position with the clergy while simultaneously continually condemning the laity for how it behaves.

Now, before we get into too deep a discussion about moral stances, *of course* if the Church decides, for example, that most forms of contraception are immoral, it should not change its view just because 98% of the world disagrees with it. The charge I make, and keep coming back to, is one of hypocrisy.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Butch
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 07:43 AM

Hey Kat, do you also curse the Church for two thousand years of charity? For orpahns homes, hospitals, universities, soup kitchens and participation in the labor movement? Do you hate the church for asking memebers to give to the poor?

As a Catholic, I see that the Church has many problems as it is run by men who have the same failings as all men. I believe that the men who, in the name of the Church, should be punished as all men. I believe that the Church was dead wrong to protect those who abused the position of priesthood in abusing anyone. BUT I also see the lives of countless saints who devoted their lives to the betterment of man ( and still do every day). I see the men and women I see in Mass going into the world and making it better one step at a time. You see only the bad - I see the bad and the good. Why are your eyes closed to the good?

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 04:36 AM

Don't know so much about other countries,Joe,but I'd trust the courts in UK, Ireland and the USA to fix compensation fairly, however many dollars it is. And large awards won't surprise me, because often we are talking about lives totally screwed. Totally.

If a bishop wants to pay hush money to keep something out of court, that's up to the bishop, assuming he can find the cash, which they usually manage to do. For the catholic church to plead poverty is a bit rich anyway, though maybe it would be richer still if it had got away with the Banco Ambrosiano scam. (The Vatican had to give archbishop Marcinkus diplomatic protection from the law over that one.)

Joe, do you have a view about whether Irish influence might be a factor as one or two have suggested? I'm not aware of much evidence to support it.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 12:11 AM

Well, Frank - if closing a soup kitchen would solve the pedophile problem, I'd be all for it. It seems that the American way of solving problems is to throw money at the problem until the complainers get fabulously rich, and then hope the problem goes away. Yes, the Catholic Church should take swift action to remove suspected pedophile priests from any possible contact with children and refer the case for criminal investigation. If the priest is not exonerated, he should probably be defrocked if the victim was a child at the time the offense happened, and he should at least be dealt with severely if the victim was an adult. Yes, I think an attempt should be made to provide counseling to both the perpetrator and the victim, but I don't think a pedophile priest should be allowed to return to duty.

Certainly, it would be wonderful if potential pedophiles could be barred from seminary training - but how do you identify a potential pedophile?

I also think that the bishops owe the world an explanation about what appears to be negligent handling of this serious problem, and aso apparent attempts to cover up what has happened. However, I do think that the church has an obligation to protect the privacy of the victims, and of priests who have been falsely accused.

However, I don't think the problem can be solved by awarding huge financial settlements to the victims, forcing the church to close schools and social service programs. There has to be a balance. I'm afraid that the financial aspect has put bishops in a difficult position. We've had some situations in our diocese where money has been awarded to adult complainants who have no proof, and where there has been only one unproven complaint against a particular priest. Admittedly, this sort of thing is difficult to prove - but the church certainly can't advertise that it gives tens of thousands of dollars to anyone who'd like to file a complaint. The issue of financial settlements is very sticky, and it puts church leaders in a very difficult position.

I'm not trying to downplay or excuse the problem - it is a horrible situation, and something must be done about it. However, I don't think that in general, the church was callous about the problem - I think the main reason church leaders didn't take action earlier is that the extent of the problem wasn't known until just recently, and nobody really knew how to deal with it. Church leaders put a lot of faith in some very expensive rehabilitation programs, and the programs didn't cure the pedophile priests who were sent to them.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 25 Mar 02 - 09:13 PM

To the priests:

"got sheep?"

I understand that the cover was blow off the churches coverup operations when postal inspectors intercepted a shipment of several hundred blow up adolescent boy dolls headed to the archbishop in Boston....

To those who complain....

"Hey we cant all be the frugal gourmet (a methodist minister who received an end of career based upon similar circumstances..."

To church members....

Hey its a midaeval institution you are lucky they aren't still burning folks at the stake......no they are just ripping folks off for every last penny via church schools, endless bottomless fundraisers and bull roasts....

about seal bait.

If you want to be seal bait why would you live down south? Arent most of the seals in alaska?

CB

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Pseudolus
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 10:32 PM

This is not about Catholics, Irish or otherwise. this is not about bashing any religion. I AM catholic and I'm embarrassed about the things that have been reported lately but it's not about my embarrassment either. It's about the children whose lives have been changed forever, who may never learn to trust again. What's a Bishop to do?!?!? Is that a real question????? Do the right thing! Do whatever it takes to make sure that this individual can NEVER do this to any child again...THAT'S what a Bishop is to do!!!!! Or perhaps that child's life is a worthwhile sacrifice for a soup kitchen or two....please.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From:
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 10:05 PM

I concur with the Irish link....I think there are other Catholic ethnicities that don't have the problems..not just the recent ones ...just the generic approach to it all....the whole obsession with sex and punishing it by forcing women to have families that couldn't care for, and men to have families that they couldn't provide for...the veneration of virgins and virginity...the bachelor farmer marrying very late in life...read Anna Quinlin??? (just go to drudgereport.com and click) for the best editorial I have seen yet...and also Peggy Noonan, Maggie Gallagher, John Leo, Pete Hamill...it's a time to stand up and be counted and I think very many of the prominent editorialists who are Catholic have checked in... mg

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 09:45 PM

I just watched a program (on Canadian TV) talking about child abuse scandals, and in the last two years there have been major incidents here in

Toronto's most prestigious private school

A pedophile ring at Maple Leaf Gardens (the Hockey rink)

Junior hockey (other coaches and Management protecting some VERY bad apples)

The Boy Scouts of Canada

Three recent cases in public schools

Several very NON Catholic churches (as well as Catholic ones)

It's very disturbing, it's rampant, and it's certainly NOT confined to any one area....EXCEPT any area that has a hierarchy desperately trying to protect itself from lawsuits...at the expense of kids.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: GUEST,johntm
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 07:45 PM

Fionn I think it was you who made a comment early in this thread that it was all about power. Reminded me of something my brother-in-law (an Irish Christian Brother) said years ago about priests. "I feel sorry for them," he said."Everything they do is about power"

He preferred the brothers with their sense of community.

The Irish connections comes to mind because the abuse seems to have worse or more concentrated in Ireland or in communities where Irish prelates had power. (Another horrible story out today about Jesuits in a California school abusing mentally retarded individuals for years.Not pedophiles but damn close. Most of the names --not all--are Irish).

Not sure what all that means, but it is hard to believe it is only coincidental.

Mary Gordon once wrote that Irish men were the only ones who believed what the Catholic Church told them.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 04:27 PM

No, Johntm, I don't think this can be blamed at the door of Ireland, and the scandals are not confined to the US. Italy, France and Austria have their fair share, to mention ones I know about - and so too has the UK, which has a tradition of catholicism that is discrete from the Irish variety.

My personal impression, no more than that, is that there is a lower incidence of abuse in latin America. If this is so, I don't know whether it would be connected to the fact that the celibacy tradition has often been flouted there (in full knowledge of the Vatican, which has had to turn a blind eye).

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: GUEST,johntm
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 11:19 AM

Had dinner with a friend last night who raised an interesting point about this scandal---how much of the problem is due to the fact that the Catholic Church in America has been shaped largely by Irish Catholics. Then look at the problems in Ireland, and in Canada and Australia where the Irish Christian Brothers (as well as others) have found guilty of abuses.

Some of the comments in here about Anglican and Methodist clergy also being involved in Canada were news to me. Same for the Muslims in UK.

I don't want to get into a trite rant about Irish Catholicism, but I have not seen any discussion about this aspect of this whole scandal. I know not all the guilty clergy are Irish, I know that the Papal press scretary sounded as stupid if not more stupid as any American Bishop in his responses to the press, but most of the scandal does seem to revolve around the US and the most egregious cases seem to have come out of Ireland.

Needless to say my parents were born in Ireland, my relatives live there and several members of my family are members of religious orders.