folk song art song

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jun 21 - 05:52 PM

what a way to misspend my youth

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 Jun 21 - 12:58 PM

Enjoyed that, thanks - the tones I like come partly due to each reed being within a closed chamber.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Long Firm Freddie
Date: 27 Jun 21 - 11:54 AM

For those who haven't already had the immense pleasure of experiencing the New Mexborough Concertina Quartet, here's a link: New Mexborough

I've slightly amended the blurb:

"...with Dick Miles and the New Mexborough English Concertina quartet performing Dick's self-penned Mexborough Memories - a ballad about the Mexborough English Prize Concertina Band from Yorkshire - the film moves to the Suffolk workshop of Steve Dickinson, who makes concertinas under the Wheatstone & Co. brand.

Construction methods including hand-sawn patterning and reed placement are shown, before Dickinson explains the operation of this unique instrument and its use to perform brass band and parlour music. The segment concludes with a parlour performance by the New Mexborough English Concertina Quartet."

LFF

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jun 21 - 05:24 AM

bass normally plays just bass line, the air button has to be used to get bellows in to suitable place[ in other words not so far out you cannot play a note]

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 Jun 21 - 05:08 AM

...bass, I mean, sorry.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 Jun 21 - 05:06 AM

Myself, and I think most, try to sing one line of verse on one breath so, I guess, for accompaniment, the baritone would be extended with each breath, yes..?

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jun 21 - 04:40 AM

i am not sure
it could be size of the instrument large reeds need a bigger frame, spo yes it might be harder because of the size and weight.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 27 Jun 21 - 04:08 AM

is there any reason for the bass being single action? Would doubling the number of reeds make it that much harder to play?

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jun 21 - 03:53 AM

no, they are not differnt systems, they were all english baritone is lower, an octave. bass are single action,plays only oone direction

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 26 Jun 21 - 05:15 PM

"for four concertinas[two trebles baritone and bass" (Sandman)...I've learnt something there - I only knew of Anglo, English and Duet (I've been lucky enough to hear all three at folk clubs and love the homely tones - especially the English concertina).

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jun 21 - 01:17 PM

yes, that was my point

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jun 21 - 05:31 AM

In my opinion, arrangements of traditional Irish music belong in concerts and on recordings. In sessions they would produce the very opposite of the spontaneity that's at the heart and soul of session-playing.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jun 21 - 02:11 AM

I played with the New Mexborough English Concertina Quartet, the music was brass band style music and we included arrangements of tradtional tunes one such was called Beauties of Irelan.,
the music arranged for four concertinas[two trebles baritone and bass, it was still recgonisable as dance music, but it relied on harmony rather than single line ornamentation to provide musical interest.i suppose it was an example of something that could be categorised as both folk and art music, however i would not have expected it if we had turned up at an ITM session to have been tolerated on a regular basis, for one thing the music did not have the ethos of inclusivity that most ITM sessions have, it was four guys playing musical arrangements o n concertinas

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jun 21 - 01:51 AM

Technique should only be a tool.
Good musicians use technique to show emotion and expession in all genres "of music
"The nearest I came to it previously was in a conversation with Nic Jones who, while agreeing his talent, bemoaned that he didn't display any definitive style."
nic jones was spot on with his remark.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 23 Jun 21 - 05:21 AM

Dave- maybe we can put our varying views on this musician down to taste, and I've never been convinced by arguments best summarised as 'well everyone else liked it', but I'll try & clarify my views.

It's hard to justify a feeling but his virtuosity was to me anathema to the whole ethos of folk music. Partly because he obviously had a high opinion of himself- I heard him murdering his party piece, the 'Mason's Apron' with increasing speed, wildly inappropriate variations, purely for the adulation of his admirers, who seemed to put virtuosity above all else?
I heard him once and it was enough for me. During a lot of the 70s, I was in London, listening to the Irish in Holloway, Fulham & other places, and it was a pleasure to hear the understated, self-effacing and community-based music of Bobby Casey, Jimmy Power, Liam Farrell & Raymond Roland, so maybe we have different ideas of what the music is about?
   I have no wish to turn this into an argument about Sean Maguire, nor have I any idea why great musicians liked to play with him (JohnDoonan was a great admirer) maybe he was a technical challenge?

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 23 Jun 21 - 04:52 AM

That has to be the first time in some fifty years that I have seen the words terrible and Sean Maguire in the same sentence. The nearest I came to it previously was in a conversation with Nic Jones who, while agreeing his talent, bemoaned that he didn't display any definitive style.
During the seventies Maguire (and Josie Keegan, appeared many times in the North East in the company of the recently deceased Joe Burke so I doubt that he would compromise his talent and reputation by appearing alongside such a terrible player.
The lack of feeling certainly didn't translate itself across to the crowds who packed these North East venues whenever he played there; unless they were all Sun readers too.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 21 Jun 21 - 12:05 PM

"Peter Pears appears to have thought folk music should be sung like classical music" (Sandman) - that's folk song to art song which, as above (Date: 17 Jun 21 - 06:19 PM), some just competed with during the Song Prize Final of Cardiff Singer of the World (BBC4) last week.

I wouldn't like to hear folk songs sung and accompanied that way at a folk club or festival but, in their place, quite like such art songs sometimes.

Others in that Cardiff Singer comp sang lieder (often German poetry set to classical music) which seems to have become even more popular since, sadly, Germans turned away from their folk music after it was appropriated by Nazis...two wrongs don't make a right, of course.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jun 21 - 06:50 AM

I agree with you Jim, about Bobby Casey Danny Meehan and Sean Maguire

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jun 21 - 06:23 AM

The Marquis of Douglas, a young man, after being engaged for marriage

with the daughter of one Widow Jack, a taverner at Perth, was wedded at Aba House to Lady Barbara Erskine, daughter of the Earl of Mar.—Lam.

This was an unfortunate marriage for the lady. The marquis, a man of profligate conduct, was subsequently led by his factor, Lowrie of Blackwood (said to have been a rejected suitor of the lady), to suspect his marchioness of infidelity, and they were consequently separated, after she had born him one child. The sorrows of the Marchioness of Douglas were described in a popular ballad of the day, some verses of which constitute the favourite song of Waly, waly!

just a little background info, the woman in this song was not the deceiver as Peter Pears says but the victim.
I like the James Taylor version best of the three clips, but each to their own

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 21 Jun 21 - 05:05 AM

So Peter Pears outsold Dick Miles? The 'Sun' is the best selling newspaper in Britain- come on, that's daft argument!

A regular visitor to the Marsden Inn folk club in the 60s was one Sean Maguire- hugely admired by many folk musicians and a brilliant technician, but I always thought he was an awful player with a total lack of feeling and was a real show-off. I'd go for Bobby Casey or Danny Meehan anytime!
Talking to Ally Bain at a festival around then, the subject came up & I told him I preferred Max Jaffa**- Ally was totally shocked, and disagreed entirely. Haven't seen him for years, but maybe he now knows what I meant?

** for younger readers, he was a prominent parlour/classical violinist f the time, and I didn't like him either

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jun 21 - 04:59 AM

HERE IS JAMES TAYLOR
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opfEk_Yoksk

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jun 21 - 04:21 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gHTw9XjKMc
Jack, since when is popularity any guide as to artistic merit.that was Peter Pears, Here is Cliff Richard singing the water is wide, is his version any better because he has sold more
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0cPOOibDEg

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jun 21 - 03:48 AM

However Peter Pears was technically a good singer ,a good technician[ WHICH I STATED PREVIOUSLY]
. if i wished to learn blues harmopnica i would listen to Sonny Boy Williamson, Sonny Terry, Little Walter, i would listen and try to absorb their styles, that is showing respect to the genre and roots of the music, my points were Peter Pears has clearly made no attempt to listen to styles of tradtional singers., even though he has is a singer with a good technique.
Yehudi Menhuin a very good classical violinist, however he could not get the hang of ITM.... BECAUSE OF THE BOWING DIFFERENCES, given time to absorb the styles and through listening to the music and because he was a good technician he would have probably been successful, heat least had the humility to accept that
Peter Pears appears to have thought folk music should be sung like classical music,
Neither have i criticised Vaughan Williams arrangements.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 06:09 PM

"but I do know that classical violins and folk fiddles are virtually the same thing" (Steve)...as said just above, the violin is the Italian fiddle; there are many other fiddles in many other lands, such as the erhu fiddle in China, the Mongolian horse-hair fiddle, Sweden's nyckelharpa, etc.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 05:59 PM

I've always regarded the folk-song efforts of Peter Pears, Robert Tear, Kathleen Ferrier et al to be absolutely valid. But you absolutely don't have to like them. As for me, I've always appreciated the work of Vaughan Williams in incorporating folk music into his classical style. I find him to be reverential and respectful, as well as imaginative. But that's just me. No-one forces anyone else to listen...

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 05:34 PM

Aggressively dissing the music somebody else appreciates never does anything to get them to like the stuff you do. It's more likely to tell them you're an idiot whose tastes should be ignored.

Probably every single recording Peter Pears made has outsold everything Dick Miles has produced in his entire career. Who's going to be persuaded that all those fans are deluded?

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 04:40 PM

I think that classically-trained musicians do have the inner resources to adapt to the far more informal ways of folk music, as long as they do what we should all be doing - loving and listening hard to the mores of folk music traditional playing. The one extra thing needed is the motivation.
I agree,
    that has been one of my points right from the beginning. if i were to try and play Jazz, not only would i have to learn to improvise well, but i would need to listen and listen to styles and absorb, for example jazz singing is differnt stylistically from unaccompanied traditional uk or irish styles, and different again from opera.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 03:08 PM

I don't play the fiddle and know nothing about bowing styles, but I do know that classical violins and folk fiddles are virtually the same thing. We had a fellow join our session who is both an award-winning music teacher and a superb classical violinist. He had severe difficulty in chiming with the rest of us. He was used to learning and playing music from the written note. The concept of chucking in your own ornamentation and variation on the fly didn't sit well with him for a long time, and learning by ear from other session musicians was well outside his comfort zone (he loved it all and rose to the challenge admirably, over time). I think that classically-trained musicians do have the inner resources to adapt to the far more informal ways of folk music, as long as they do what we should all be doing - loving and listening hard to the mores of folk music traditional playing. The one extra thing needed is the motivation.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,Jiggers
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 02:12 PM

Why does this thread even exist ? I have learnt nothing. With whom is who arguing ? I have a feeling this was all discussed quite a few years back and led nowhere that time too

Sandman
"your friend might get enjoyment but there are undoubtedly people who stay away because of her and she annoys people with her pig horn, so is she more important than other people"

its a pibgorn, which just means 'hornpipe' in Welsh

I dont think anyone stays away, everyone tends to tolerate other peoples weaknesses to encourage more people to take part. The so called 'experts' just organise separate sessions for themselves if needed, at home or at unadvertised venues, but it reduces them to a much narrower social circle.

Plus all the people in the session get to make fun of my friend and her pibgorn and she just laughs - she rarely plays it, I think she just likes showing it off as it was custom made for her - they are not readily available, so you have to find someone to make them Usually there are enough musicians in the sessions so that she does not ruin anything with her tin whistle either.

Maybe Sandman likes the attention or is bored/lonely. I will not look at this thread anymore, it is a waste of my time, and just raises my ire.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 12:20 PM

Dick,music is like food in many ways "one mans meat is another man's poison" at the end of the day enjoy what you like and avoid what you don't like. You have made your views very clear repeatedly,your continual beating of your favorite drum is getting at little tedious.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 07:58 AM

i have no problem with experimentation[ i was one of the first people to use clarinet with concertina, over 40 year ago.
I happen to like classical music and also jazz.
But this thread was about folk music and art music,.
So Steve, do you agree that there are differences in classicl music violin styles and Irish tradtional music fiddle styles?
and that classical violinists like Yehudi Menuhin realised that their stylistic clssical violin style was not stylistisically apt for ITM.
Classical violinists have generally very good technique but the bowing styles of ITM ARE QUITE DIFFERENT.
The same applies to singing of classical opera and tradtional songs, none of this takes away from having fun , it is about trying to do a good a job as possible, since when has trying to do a good performance mean that it can not at the same time be fun.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 07:37 AM

Until now I've been merely reading this thread. Tattie Bogle, I think it's a shame you're butting out. Your sentiments on this are exactly mine. Two things I've said many times before: first, if the way a song or tune is performed in a way you disapprove of, you don't have to listen. Second, and connected, a good, strong tradition in any walk of life, whether classical, folk, dance, theatre or anything else, need never feel threatened by adventurous types who like to experiment or do different things around the edges.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 05:22 AM

One of the most enjoyable few minutes I ever enjoyed in a folk club was at the Empress of Russia, in Islington, in the late 70s with Flowers and Frolics. No hangups with this crowd! Nick Havell, the trombonist, and an opera buff, stood up and sang a stirring version of 'La Donna e mobile.
Backed by the band -melodeon, anglo concertiona, banjo, drums & then at the end, Nick sat down and joined in with the trombone for the last run-through.
I don't know if it was folk music or opera, but it was bloody good fun!

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 19 Jun 21 - 04:35 PM

I'm afraid you've kicked me off this conversation, Sandman: your constant picking of fights with all and sundry is very unsavoury, so, like others before me, I'm outa here!

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jun 21 - 07:06 AM

Not in my experience.
my most lucrative busking experience generally was killarney race course, but that was the 1990s

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 19 Jun 21 - 04:59 AM

like I said, Dick, analysis can be quite interesting, so thanks for that- well done re the busking & you're right, that is the real world with market forces at play- you're an entrepreneur and we sisagreed about that word before but it is NOT an insult! -pubs are certainly not the best place for folk music but as well as Bantry market, it's where the folk are, like it or not.
I'd be pretty sure it was NEVER in the pubs at all in Ireland until the postwar flood of Irish workers to London. Their tradition was based in the kitchen, but bedsit kitchens didn't allow for that, of course- read Reg Hall's classic thesis on the Irish in London! And the pattern set in England drifted back to Ireland & became the norm.

In my time in west Cork 'traditional' type pubs I found that Gershwin's 'Summertime' was probably the most popular song from anyone asked to sing- is that still true?

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jun 21 - 02:35 AM

Definition and Categorization of Folk Music
Posted byadmin        
December 22, 2012        

shapeimage_5Annabelle Brault

Music Therapy Students, University of Windsor

Annabelle Brault is a second year music therapy student at the University of Windsor. Born and raised in Quebec, she attended high school and Cégep in French educational institutions where multicultural and community involvement were predominant. Accordingly, she participated in a cultural immersion program in West Africa for a three month period, which was part of the social sciences program of the Cégep Marie- Victorin. At the completion of her DEC, Annabelle returned to West Africa and conducted her own humanitarian project in a center for disabled children. Her work as a French monitor and promotion agent of bilingual Canadian culture in a small community in the Canadian Northwest Territories motivated her to begin training in music therapy.

Contact: [e-mail]

Download: Article (pdf)
Definition and Categorization of Folk Music

In his work A folk song history of America, Forcucci (1984) describes folk songs as “the songs of the people” (p.16). Those songs are creations of one or more individuals, and the creative process can be collective, individual, or a mixture of both. It is the use of human expression in order to describe one’s way of life (Forcucci, 1984). Because the purpose of folk song is to describe human experiences, it is not surprising that a variety of folk songs exist. Perhaps there is no consensus on how folk songs should be categorized among cultures, but below are some examples of different types of folk songs including: work songs, love songs, drinking songs, cradle songs, play songs, and songs of mourning, etcetera. Respectively, Poston and Arma (1972) in The Faber book of French folk songs organized the folk repertoire according to the categories shown in the following table.

The way folk songs are created or categorized varies, but the way they are transmitted is almost always the same: it is “passed on from person to person, group to group, generation to generation” (Forcucci, 1984, p.16). How folksongs are transmitted directly impacts the songs themselves: Because folk songs are orally transmitted, they are easy to modify and to adapt to one’s personal taste and/or to a particular situation. Moreover, when the songs are sung, some words or part of the tune can be misheard or forgotten. Therefore, folksongs are not fixed in time; they evolve and change through the transmission. In the same way, folksongs “are ordinarily the product of an unknown person or group of persons” (Forcucci, 1984, p.18). Together, folksongs are a way in which people recount their everyday experiences and worries through their most intimate instrument; their own voice.

Folk Music vs. Modern Music

Above was a short simple definition of what folksongs are, but defining folk music is more complex than that. In fact, people still use music as a way to express themselves so why is their music not considered folk music? In order to understand this the section below will explore the differences between modern music and folk music.

Purpose of the Compositions

Folksongs are very personal and are particular to a region or to a people. In fact, folksongs might include specific speech patterns or expressions that are specific to a language or even a dialect; for example, the Jouale in Quebec or the Chiac in New Brunswick are dialect proper to those geographical ensembles (Forcucci, 1984). Moreover, the lyrics of a song might recount a historical event, or a distinct way of life (Forcucci, 1984). For instance, there is a whole part of the Canadian folk music repertoire about the coureur des bois (fur traders). This is a very important part of Canadian history that a person from another part of the world might not be aware of. Consequently, it is sometimes difficult to a foreign person to relate to the folk music of another country or nation: as he/she might not have the emotional attachment or the historical knowledge that is carried in the lyrics of the song. Therefore, folk songs are intimately related to the place where they were composed, which differs significantly to modern music which a larger majority of persons can relate.

The Folk Singer: The Spontaneous Creator vs. the Skilled Composer

One of the most important differences between modern music and folk music is how the songs are composed. Folksongs are the product of the everyday person: any creative person could have been the creator of the folk songs we still sing today. The greatest quality of folk composers is their ability to capture an anecdote and match it with a simple melody that can be sung by everyone (Forcucci, 1984). Similarly, folksongs are simple in structure and meaning; they touch subjects that are closely related to everyday life. In contrast, modern composers are often very skilled musicians; this elite group of people masters the complex language of music and its technologies, and they can share universal and abstract ideas through their music (Forcucci, 1984). Moreover, albums are the result of thousands of hours of work. Another difference lies in the performance of the two types of music (Forcucci, 1984). Folksongs are mostly improvised or modified while performing, while modern music is generally rehearsed before being performed in public. Perhaps we can think of jazz music in which improvisation is common; again, the musicians alone or together rehearse the improvisations prior to performance, even though the improvisation is different every time performed. Put differently, folk music is a realistic recounting of everyday live experience with the use of simple melodies, as modern music can express ideas through planned musical arrangements. Folk music is spontaneous, and not musically notated beforehand, in opposition to modern music that is usually notated before being performed.

Choice of Accompaniment

Another major difference between modern music and folk music is the kind of accompaniment used. As mentioned earlier, folksongs are simple in their structure and matter (Forcucci, 1984). Therefore, it is not surprising that they are also simple in their choice of accompanying instruments. For instance, folk singers generally accompany themselves with less formal instruments, such as the guitar, the banjo, the accordion, the piano, or the violin and further, most folksongs were accompanied by very few or no instruments (“Folk Music”, 2012). This differs substantially from modern music in which the use of larger musical ensembles is extremely common. Larger ensembles enable a composer to create more complex harmonies, and it also gives the composer the possibility to create more elaborate textures.

Technology and its Influence on Transmission

How music is transmitted has undergone a major change in the past decade; in fact, the development of online services transformed forever the musical industry. Online music download organisations, such as iTunes, are now a crucial part of the music selling market. This is at the complete opposite of the way folk songs used to be transmitted. Indeed, folksongs were transmitted my human contact, and more often during communal gatherings (Forcucci, 1984, p.16). It is interesting how the transmission of music depended for the longest time on social interactions, and how now, even the simplest social interaction such as going to the music store is no longer necessary. And yet, music from all around the world has never been so accessible.

Performance Settings and Interpretation

Lastly, the interpretation and similarly the performance settings of folk music contrast with those of modern music. The proximity in which folksongs were shared with the audience differs from the mega stadiums in which the most famous modern musicians perform. Even though more intimate settings still exist today, such as “open mic nights” or fire camp singing, the performing scene is more organized, and that implies a greater distance between the listener and the artist. This has an impact on the singer’s interpretation: it is easier to express sadness to a person sitting next to you, than to the person sitting in the very last row on a 50 000 people stadium. Therefore, the intimate performance setting of folksongs differentiate them from modern music, because it impacts the interpretation of the performer, and enhance the intimacy between the listener and the artist. Below is a table containing the main generalizations about folk songs established by Mr. Forcucci (1984) in his book A folk song history of America (p.18).

References

Folk Music. (n.d.). The Canadian Encyclopedia. Retrieved from http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/articles/emc/folk-music

Forcucci, S. L. (1984). A folk song history of America: America through its songs. Englewood Cliffs, NY: Prentice-Hall Inc.

Poston, E. & Arma, P. (1972). The Faber book of French folk songs. London, UK: Faber and Faber limited.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 07:44 PM

classical musicians would not last ten minutes in a public bar ,most people have gone there to drink alcohol, generally a lot of roaring, scoving, acting the goat, fools playing pool,

I've heard the cellist Matthew Barley "last" about an hour and a half playing mostly-contemporary music in a pub. But it was to an audience that knew how to pay attention. Not the first time I'd heard art music performers doing that sort of gig.

Is there any point at all in playing any kind of music to a roomful of shouty drunks who don't want to listen?

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 06:50 PM

Tattie Bogle, quote
but sometimes the term “pub performer” is used in a less complimentary sense, as if to say the person or group concerned is not up to doing folk club gigs or concerts

Quite clear then if you had read post
From: The Sandman - PM
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 06:44 AM
dont misundertsatnd me jim,none of this is a criticism of you as a performer.
that there was no criticism,
so i suggest you read posts properly

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 06:34 PM

listen, i have booked Jim several times at my festival and been booked to run sessions with him at festivals , he was a neighbour of mine here in ireland and we got on fine and played together on occasions.
i once did a split booking with him in England
jim brought the subject of pub perfomance in to this discussion here, quote jim bainbriodge
"Such singers as you mention would not last a minute in a public bar, never mind a folk club, so let the market decide that- never thought I'd ever find myself quoting Maggie Thatcher."
quote tattie bogle
And on another subject, re crossing the genres: one song that springs to mind is “Summertime “ from Gershwin’s “Porgy and Bess”: now you say you wouldn’t sing anything operatic in a folk club, and in its original form it is sung by a very high operatic soprano. But it does get sung often enough in folk sessions, usually by low husky-voiced altos, in a more folkie style. And it does seem to make the cross-over quite well
Tattie, i was clearly referring to OPERATIC STYLE. stop twisting my words,
BUT i have never sung summertime because i do not like it LIKEWISE I have never sung Lord Randall because i do not like it
...Where did i say i would not sing anything operatic in a folk club
this is what i said
"i am not insisting on anything, i pointed out that if i were to sing opera in a non operatic style, opera lovers would not like it,"
i did not mention folk clubs.
i thought my meaning was quite clear i meant singing opera in a non operatic style to a gathering of opera lovers
no mention of doing so in folk clubs, PLEASE STOP MISQUOTING ME

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 05:47 PM

Just to be clear: Jim is a very engaging and entertaining performer, whether at clubs, festivals or in pubs. I guess you didn’t mean it that way, Sandman, but sometimes the term “pub performer” is used in a less complimentary sense, as if to say the person or group concerned is not up to doing folk club gigs or concerts. We had Jim for one of concerts in Edinburgh some years back, and he was excellent, with a great knowledge of the Durham mining songs tradition (the theme of the whole concert was songs about mining.)

And on another subject, re crossing the genres: one song that springs to mind is “Summertime “ from Gershwin’s “Porgy and Bess”: now you say you wouldn’t sing anything operatic in a folk club, and in its original form it is sung by a very high operatic soprano. But it does get sung often enough in folk sessions, usually by low husky-voiced altos, in a more folkie style. And it does seem to make the cross-over quite well.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 04:36 PM

no pubs open here for music and god knows when it will be.
Jim, is a very good pub performer, butpubs are closing fast in ireland even before covid

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 03:48 PM

Good to hear you have done well busking with trad music, Sandman; you've probably heard it said that most people like folk music - when they do get the chance to hear it.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 02:46 PM

Jim, no one has suggested that you criticised Martin.
Jim you know I play in the uk as well as ireland. i have found when busking in ireland that singing tradtional songs.. they are well received.
   last november, i was busking in Bantry on a tuesday, and in an hour i collected 100 euros singing and playing trad,
so as far as i am concerned pubs are not the only venues in ireland, busking is the most honest form of performing it suits me to sing trad and its lucrative
so the pub crowd is NOTJUST who i need to convince about the music-, but its the real world.....
oh and i still live in ireland unlike you, and still get booked in pubs singing trad and playing trad,
YOU SEE there are more than one way of getting pub audiences on your side, your way works so does mine OK

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 01:30 PM

Cloudy here in Manchester, Sandman; took a half flexi day off and have been watching the Queens tennis on the BBC, after it cleared up in London; also just catching up on a bit of housework; as has become my wont this year, will try and read a another poem and practise another song later today...how about yourself?

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 01:29 PM

Dick, Martin is a good bloke, none better, and he's VERY well informed and I certainly would make NO ctiticism of him or his music, except that it's not really my preference in music- Hope that's clear!

Yes rambling houses WERE the venue for music in the past & sorry I never experienced them. Good folk like Gene Sheerin in Tullaghan, Co Leitrim and Joe Corscadden in Tubbercurry are trying to revive such gatherings. The Brown Bread and Jam club run by Joe is an amazing night!

However, pubs are the main venue these days (pre-covid) and folk clubs are thin on the ground in Ireland, so the pub crowd is who you need to convince about the music- not easy, but its the real world.....

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 01:07 PM

WAV   how are things across the water

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 07:52 AM

Trad song to art song is a very old tradition in itself of course, going back centuries in England, e.g.

For what it's worth, I introduce the tune with tenor recorder, then either sing unaccompanied or double the melody with keys but, as above, I also enjoy hearing those classically trained adding embellishment and a different style that Sandman mentions.

As for "fiddle playing", most folkies nowadays are playing the Italian fiddle/violin but there are many different fiddles from many different nations.

And going back to the books I had to analyse at school, in order to pass exams, could be fun, as JB suggests...

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 07:24 AM

I would use humour myself , but i have seen other very good performers be succesful and communicate well with audiences , roy harris, martin carthy, nic jones, all spring to mind.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 06:55 AM

i suppose you are right, classical musicians would not last ten minutes in a public bar ,most people have gone there to drink alcohol, generally a lot of roaring, scoving, acting the goat, fools playing pool,