Research project: Traditional Folk music

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 03:06 PM

"as far as im concerned, far too much emphasis is put on traditional singers or revival singers, being a good singer is the only thing that is important.and in 100 years from now, will still be the oNly thing that is important,singing is about conveying feeling,not about what badge your wearing.http://www.dickmiles.com"

"we can get away from this nonsensical traditional /revival singer jargon,which is meaningless claptrap, as we cant even define what traditional is.http://www.dickmiles.com"

"They are meaningless claptrap to anyone who is interested in defining good singing,as a singer that is all that concerns me.
When I make a judgement of a singer, what label they have TRADITIONAL or REVIVAL does not affect my judgement,as its said you dont judge a book by its cover".

If it ain't what you mean, don't say it.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 02:14 PM

Yes, Murray, the tax return was in a day ahead of deadline, which is why I've been back in the fray on this thread. My tax liability is, however, confidential - to divulge it would be to give away the dread secret of the pittance I earn as a folk musician. Perhaps you could write to Gordon Brown with your idea about exemption.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 01:05 PM

In Ireland artists and musicians are,thanks to Charles Haughey.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 01:02 PM

I would be quite interested to know whether Brian Peters succeeded in getting his tax return filled in , and also how much he is having to pay.

Traditional singers should be tax-exempt imo.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 12:25 PM

I never said analysis was a waste of time,please read what I said AGAIN.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 11:57 AM

>> rod stradling, nic jones, june tabor ,kate rusby are all revival performers. <<


If analysis is a waste of time, how do you know?

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 11:35 AM

Cristian mentions preserving folk traditions,continuing would be better terminology.
TRADITIONS evolve,they dont remain static,without alteration.Padstow hobby hoss[and the MERRYMAKING ]is a case in point,.
preserved has several different meanings,but it has connotations of something that is locked up in a museum.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 09:28 AM

Yes, its a very good site.
on the subject of mobile phone recordings,only last night,I played a polka,For a banjo pupil,on to his mobile phone, so he could get the air of it,
in fact I find this way of teaching very useful.
I Dont care whether he has learned it by a traditional process ,as long as he learns it and gets pleasure from the music.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 08:52 AM

>> rod stradling, nic jones, june tabor ,kate rusby are all revival performers. <<

Maybe I didn't make myself clear: Rod Stradling runs the Musical Traditions website devoted to traditional singing and music-making, and he has a strong personal preference for that kind of music. He would be at the other end of the scale from, say, a Kate Rusby fan. Our questioner might benefit from a visit to his site: http://www.mustrad.org.uk/

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 08:09 AM

rod stradling, nic jones, june tabor ,kate rusby are all revival performers.
I listen to both traditional and revival performers and appreciate both.
however there are mediocre traditonal singers as well as good ones,the same applies to revival singers.
I would rather listen to a good revival singer than a mediocre tradional singer,and a good traditional singer to a mediocre revival singer.
good traditional style or traditional singing does not have to be learned by actually learning the song from a traditional singer in the flesh,.
that has been where collectors with field recordings and videos,have played an important part,.
the advantage of learning a song directly from a traditional singer
is that you can hopefully locate the song in its environment, and possibly get background information first hand,although a THOROUGH collector like will undoubtedly supply that information in his notes.
it would undoubtedly be helpful to Cristian to meet both traditional and revival singers and musicians.Martin Carthy,Roy Harris are equally important as Kitty Hayes or Chris Droney.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 05:04 AM

A valuable dispatch from the coal-face, thanks, Tradsinger.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 04:54 AM

If Cristian is still following this thread (and I fear his eyes may have glazed over by now) he may be wondering how his original questions - most of which were focussed quite tightly on learning, disseminating and interpretating old material - have led to the present slanging match. It's quite true someone in his situation needs to have a good grasp of what 'tradition' means (and the conflicting ideas about that) but that wasn't his central concern.

>> to write a dissertation on a subject that cant be adequately defined,and then to be marked on it devalues the point of examinations <<

Even if I agreed that 'tradition' can't be adequately defined (there may be arguments about it but that doesn't mean there's no definition), that wouldn't be an argument against researching it. Quite the opposite, I'd say. If Cristian's research leads him to think beyond Baring-Gould and Child and consider football chants then his time won't have been wasted. And I'm sure he's planning to dig a bit deeper than Mudcat.

>> In every other form of music,people are appraised on how they perform, not on what process they used to learn the music <<

But we're talking about 'analysis' here, not 'appraisal'. There are certainly afficionados out there who prefer to listen to 'traditional' rather than 'revival' performers of English folk song, and they've every right to make that choice. As Tom suggested above, there *are* stylistic differences between 'revival' and 'traditional' performance which - though blurred at the edges - might well lead one to either preference. For every Rod Stradling there are a hundred Nic Jones, June Tabor and Kate Rusby fans who like their traditional songs served up in a certain way and might well dismiss Sam Larner as a "croaky old bloke". Each to their own.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Tradsinger
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 04:19 AM

Can I bring us back on track. Christian's original question was to do with how songs are transmitted from one person to another. Let me shed a little light on this from my years of collecting from source singers.

I spent many hours in the company of the late Wiggy Smith, singing, drinking and recording his songs. Wiggy was a local gypsy, and couldn't read. Where did Wiggy learn his songs? - well, many orally from friends and family, and others from commercial recordings of such diverse artists as Jimmy Rogers, George Formby and Norman Wisdom. Does that mean that some of his reportoire was more 'traditional' than others? Well, yes, no or maybe. Of the songs that he learnt orally and therefore traditionally from his family, it is probable that somewhere in their history, they (the songs, not the family) were given a leg up by being printed on a broadside, so how different is that from a singer of today learning a song from a book?

Yet Wiggy is rightly regarded as a 'traditional/source' singer, as he was singing independently of the folk scene/revival. The traditional/revival distinction is a very grey area. I know a lot of singers in the folk scene who have learnt folk songs from their families or otherwise outside of the revival.

Another thought - does my time spent with Wiggy make me a 'traditional' singer by association? Well, the answer is no, as there was a certain academic interest in my recording Wiggy, with my conscious knowledge of the totality of the folk scene. If, on the other hand, one of his sons had said 'Dad, I want to learn your songs. Sing them onto this tape.' Then the scene would be different. The son would probably be learning the songs to sing in the family or friends context, not in the folk scene. (Ah but what if his motive was to sing them at the folk club..?)

When I first started collecting, I never used to ask a singer where he/she learnt a song, as I was just happy to get the song down on tape. Now I always ask, and get a variety of replies, ranging from 'I learnt it from my great-grandfather' to 'I learnt the tune from a Vaughan Williams symphony and then found the words in a book'. Many traditional singers have learnt songs in exactly the same way as revival singers, by hearing a song, asking the singer for the words and going away and learn it like that. Scan Tester in Sussex learnt 'The Lakes of Cool Finn' in this way,not by hearing it many times from friends or family.

All this goes to show that oral transmission is a very complex business, very much bound up with context and motivation. WIth today's communications, we can learn songs by fax, answerphone, etc. I'm sure that more and more songs are now being passed on by mobile phone recording. Is that traditional or not? (discuss)

Good luck with the dissertation.

Gwilym (Tradsinger)

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 03:46 AM

"In every other form of music,people are appraised on how they perform"

Complete bolleaux (if, as it seems, it implies "solely on how they perform"). In every other form of music (and how do you know it is a form or an "other form" unless there is a defintion, a history, and an analysis?) there are music degrees (for example B. Mus) that depend in a large part on theory and only in a lesser part upon performance skills.

What we have here is an inverted snobbery that values ignorance because it is ignorance. In general, knowledge and understanding improves people, and knowledge and understanding of a field of endeavour improves the practice of that endeavour.

It is also a most extraordinary approach for a person who is largely known as a performer of traditional songs and other music - how would one know it was traditional unless there had been an analysis?

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 03:45 AM

Jim Carroll ,BB adressed the remark to me,I replied with a joke, Iagree, I didnt phrase the remark very well[we can all make mistakes].

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 03:35 AM

The problem is in the title,I may have a definition of traditional folk music,but it is probably different from cristians tutor,.
CRISTIAN is to be marked on his dissertation.[by whom],and what qualification or knowledge does his tutor have.
what is his tutors definition of traditional folk music[does it include the songs sung on football terraces].
those of you, who argue that music shouldnt be competitive or be given marks,should also be against a dissertation,on something that, we here, have not been able to reach a consenus on.
to write a dissertation on a subject that cant be adequately defined,and then to be marked on it devalues the point of examinations, and does not make sense.
Jim I defined the tradtional/ revival singer description as claptrap,I never mentioned anybodys work.
In every other form of music,people are appraised on how they perform,
not on what process they used to learn the music .
that in my opinion is the correct way to appraise all music.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 03:31 AM

'I will go and write out 100 times.
I mustnt tell cristian to throw away his dissertation and go and play music.'
I suggest you not only write the quote above out 100, but you should read it that many times - and memorise it.
You're doing it again - why do you always take everything somebody writes as refering to you? There must be a name for this syndrome!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 06:01 PM

Let's all do the Birdy Song.
"Tweet Tweet Tweet Tweet: (and shake your bum)".

People have cultures. Those cultures spring from history and belief. The ethos of "the singer not the song" condemns to rootlessness. A chameleon stands for nothing. A straw in the wind is not a wall.

What is done is at least as important as how well it is done. A dog maybe an excellent Pointer but it will not win a class as a Weimaraner. A dog has to have type as well as be sound.

And for heaven's sake learn to use a shift lock. It's no harder to work than a lavatory seat.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 05:26 PM

Dick,
You're an old friend and I valued your advice all those years ago - I've certainly never regretted choosing a musical career. But I do find useful those concepts you called "claptrap". And I don't think you really believe that we could have done without all those collectors thanks to whose efforts you and I learned so much of our material.

Anonymous Guest:
My definition of "traditional" is quite wide enough to include Natalie MacMaster and the Rankins. They come from a geographically isolated culture that nurtures a lively, historically continuous and mainstream tradition, in the way that England (which is what I and our original questioner were talking about) sadly does not.

Declan:
I attempted to answer Cristian's original questions point by point. Read the thread.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 03:23 PM

I will go and write out 100 times.
I mustnt tell cristian to throw away his dissertation and go and play music.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: BB
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 03:03 PM

I don't think anyone would disagree regarding your last piece of advice to Cristian, Dick, but that is very different from "don't do it, throw away your dissertation and go out and play music"! (Your words, 28th Jan.)

I think he was trying to seek out musicians and singers when he first posted on Mudcat, but hopefully he will also go out and find 'live' ones as well.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 02:09 PM

Jim,I have been involved with music for 45 years,and while I dont claim to know everything, and freely admit i,m still learning new things,but to insinuate that I know nothing,is LAUGHABLE.
so lets beg to differ,.
what I would advise cristian to do when he has sparetime from his dissertation,is to seek out musicians and singers, playing the kind of music he is studying and have a good listen,and talk to the musicians,I think he will find they know a lot more than nothing,and may be very helpful to him and his project.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 01:55 PM

So, where do we pot people like the Rankin Family, Natalie MacMaster and otherrs who did grow up in the tradition but who are now very mainstream ? It sems to me that some of the definitions given above are rather narrow and do not allow for the fact that many people, though clearly not many contributors here, still do come from a along line of very traditional musicians.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Declan
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 01:50 PM

Christian,

As you may have gathered there are some people around here who get very excited whenever the word Tradition is mentioned. Maybe you could use a word other than the 'T' word, or else define it and let us know what definition you are going to use in your paper. Then someone might even get around to answering your questions.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 01:35 PM

Cap'n
I partly agree with your first statement, but would qualify that with 'it depends on who the musician is'. You are not entitled to describe what many of us do and think and work at as 'claptrap', and to advise somebody who has asked for advice on something they are writing 'DON'T' strikes me as being somewhat arrogant and certainly unhelpful.
You may learn more by playing (I only have your word for that), but I have met plenty of people who play and sing a great deal and know nothing - they usually punctuate their conversation with 'that's claptrap'.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 12:20 PM

JIM CARROLL without the music, collectors would be redundant.
If the music hadnt been there,there would have been no collectors.
I have the right to give advice,christian is free to ignore my advice,thats freedom of speech,.
I honestly believe you learn more,by singing and playing and going out and meeting other musicians /singers,than by reading treatises by academics,Iam entitled to that opinion,other people are entitled to disagree,Tom Brown gave CRISTIAN different advice ,Cristian can make up his own mind.
I am still entitled to give an opinion,without you telling me that I shouldnt do so.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Patrick Costello
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 03:24 PM

I think the performing thing, the research thing, the playing thing and even the teaching all come down to a matter of balance.

Part of the overall craft of being a folk musician requires the ability to interact with an audience, digging into the past for insight and the ability to pass on the skill-set to a new generation of players.

If you go too far or not far enough in any one aspect of the craft everything kind of falls apart.

-Patrick

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: BB
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 03:13 PM

Hello Jim,

E-mail us through the website at www.umbermusic.co.uk . Sorry, I tried to do a link, but it doesn't seem to be working properly - don't know why, as I've managed it before. Never was very good at these things. Or you could PM me with your e-mail address - I think you can do so even though you're not signed up.

Oh, and Tom did say that it was Brian's definition of a traditional singer - not ours!

Barbara

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 02:42 PM

Cap'n,
That's your choice - just as we have made ours.
Nobody - to my knowlege, has told you you shouldn't perform so please don't tell people that they should give up reasearch and sing or play instead.
Taken to its logical conclusion, you wouldn't have anything to sing or play if people had followed that advice in the past.
Jim Carroll
PS Tom,
Could you confirm your e-mail address - that one keeps bouncing.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 07:37 AM

jim,I am more interested in performing,I consider performing more important,FURTHERMORE I dont have to have an audience to enjoy music,I get a kick out of doing it,I often sit down and play/sing for my own enjoyment.
is that quite clear to everybody ,while I might take part in academic discussions ,I consider it of secondary IMPORTANCE.,for example this morning I sat down and practised for forty minutes before turning the computer on.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,doc.tom
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 05:31 AM

Hi Jim,
Nice one! 'Rejected' and 'uninfluenced' are not mutually exclusive of course. I bow to superior expertise, cetainly on the travellers, but perhaps we're talking about degrees (that's 'degrees of' rather than academic degrees :-) ). If you want to e-mail us your address (via umbermusic.co.uk)I can now send you a copy of something I promised you years ago.
Hi Dick,
I think you missed the point about arias! If you don't intend singing them, why not? Or perhaps you are saying there is more than just 'good/bad singing'; perhaps there is thing called 'folk'? I just knew I shouldn't have tried irony.
Hi Brian,
Or (as a purely academic exercise, of course,) compare these two statements.
"The important point is not who is singing the song but how the song is being sung" Dic Miles (above)
" You can't damage a song by singing it. The only way you can damage the song is by not singing it". Martin Carthy (TV)

Tom

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 04:54 AM

Cap'n,
I don't believe you!
You have taken part in (and started) enough discussions on academic subjects on this forum to show that you are not just interested in performing. Singing (of any type) is and never has been just about performing, and we've all been beneficiaries of that fact – Child, Sharp, Bronson, Greig, Munnelly, Breathnach, Shields Wimberly, Gerould, Grainger, Carpenter – the list is endless (and very few of the aforementioned were noted as singers, dancers or musicians).
Perhaps you have been unable to define traditional music to your satisfaction – some of us have no such problem. We have failed to reach a consensus, all the more reason why we should continue discussing it.
However, if you feel that this is all claptrap, feel free not to take part.
Tom Brown,
Hello Tom.
I think your point about the IFMC definition being flawed is only partly right – rather I suggest it is in need of fine-tuning.
There certainly have been communities 'uninfluenced (or only partially influenced) by popular and art music' in England for several centuries', up to fairly recently the Travelling communities for instance. This is why their traditional music and song remained as healthy as it did for so long after the settled communities' traditions declined.
Sure, there was contact with the culture of settled communities but by and large they remained fairly isolated and unaffected by it, certainly well into the twentieth century. It was devastating to watch the walls come tumbling down (somewhere between 1973 and 1975), when the Irish Travellers in London en mass acquired portable televisions and stopped singing and telling stories virtually overnight.
Apart from the Travellers, there has also been an active resistance to outside influences from other groups.
Winterton in Norfolk was one of the places that kept itself to itself, despite it being quite close to Yarmouth. We were told that right up to WW2, if a Winterton girl was found to be courting an outsider, the local men would picket the roads to keep him away.
We were also told of the old man who walked into The Fisherman's Return, the local pub where the fishermen would meet every Saturday night to sing. He saw one of the 'new-fangled' wirelesses on a shelf behind the bar, and on enquiring, was told that it brought news and music all the way from London. He reached across with his stick and pulled it to the floor, smashing it to pieces – it was never replaced.
There are plenty of examples from elsewhere. Here in Ireland in the forties there was a tremendous resistance to the attempts by church and state to deliberately destroy traditional dancing and music and replace it with the dance halls. There was, and still is, an opposition to the imposition of the Comhaltas style of dancing (not to mention Riverdance). There was also resistance from many musicians to the influence the records from America (Coleman, Morrison etc.) was having on local styles.
Fine-tuning!
You are right Tom about singers adding to their repertoire from books and broadsides (the records came relatively later). In Ireland the Travellers played an active (almost exclusive) part in the distribution of the ballad sheets. I found it interesting that the man we recorded who sold these, distinguished the singing of these songs in order to sell them from that which was done at home, which he described as 'fireside singing'. He, other Travellers (and certainly Walter Pardon) always regarded traditional and non-traditional songs as being different, though they may not have used those terms.
On the revival-traditional question, I agree totally with Mary Humphrey's very articulate statement.
Hi Mary; have you done any work on the Carpenter Collection yet?
Talking about revival and traditional singers is just as valid as referring to classical, opera, heavy metal, hip-hop, scat, blues, baritone, tenor – different types, different learning techniques, different backgrounds, different inputs and experiences.
If we are going to make any sense of the tradition we need to be clear on our references. As much I have enjoyed the singing of Tom and Barbara Brown in the past, I will never regard them as traditional singers – no way a criticism, just a definition.
I sometimes feel that the fact that we have borrowed our songs and music from those who have been generous enough to pass it on to us, might, just might mean that we will respect it that much more, and similarly pass it on to others relatively undamaged (and not hide behind the excuse that we are part of the tradition) – a thought!
Regarding the sourcing of songs, the Roud Index is probably the greatest contribution to finding and comparing versions, certainly in my lifetime.
Richard Bridge.
I agree totally with the sentiments of your posting, though it is worth remembering that the songs would not have survived if they hadn't been entertaining; perhaps 'solely entertainment' is a better term.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 04:53 AM

while collecting material is important,if there were nobody singing the material,there would be nothing to collect,therefore the performer is more important than the collector.
entertainment is an essential ingredient of music,to entertain, to engage an audience, to communicate ones feelings be they sad or happy,does not devalue the music.
what has good singing,got to do with [particuarly] singing arias,are you saying that opera singers are the only good singers.
many years ago[at the time I was anestablished professional] Brian Peters asked my advice about going professional,I recognised his talent and advised him to do it,Ihave always believed that while the academics have apart to play their part is not as important as that of the performer,without the performers there would be no collectors academics etc,http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,bill
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 10:32 PM

"In other words, i would like to hear from folk musicians, concerning how they would go about sourcing a song... would they learn it aurally in the age old tradition..."

My answer is yes. I use what sources I can. Being in the US I have access to some people who are part of the tradition of the music, and so learn from them aurally. There are also excellent sources, such as our Archive of Folk Culture that publish or otherwise make available recordings (See Smithsonian Folkways recordings). I use the internet primarily to check my sources and find alternative versions. I learn better by ear than by sight, just my learning style, so I lean toward various versions of aural learning techniques.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,doc.tom
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 06:55 PM

Oops!! been away two days p[erformiong, and the thread is acting like Topsy.

Okay, Dick,

"They are meaningless claptrap to anyone who is interested in defining good singing,as a singer that is all that concerns me." - So when can we hear you doing arias?

"I get the distinct impression that some folk collectors,consider revival singers to be of less importance than traditional singers regardless of the quality of singers involved." - now there I have to agree but, of course, there may be reasons for that.

" My advice to christian is dont do it,throw away your dissertation and go out and play music." - Do I detect an anti-academic tendency here? Why shouldn't the lad want to study?

Tom

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 05:46 PM

Captain Birdeye

Anyone who believes what you just said devalues an art form and a history of people to mere entertainment.

Shame on you.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 05:01 PM

Brian Peters,They are meaningless claptrap to anyone who is interested in defining good singing,as a singer that is all that concerns me.
When I make a judgement of a singer, what label they have TRADITIONAL or REVIVAL does not affect my judgement,as its said you dont judge a book by its cover.
I get the distinct impression that some folk collectors,consider revival singers to be of less importance than traditional singers regardless of the quality of singers involved.
I believe MUSIC is about PERFORMING,.
my advice to christian is dont do it,throw away your dissertation and go out and play music.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 04:07 PM

Brian Peters: interested that Oh Susanna is still in use. the old minstrel bajo type repertoire is a long time a-dying, however non-PC it has become. "Marching through Georgia" was also in evidence among the Morecambe supporters as well. As was "Annie's Song", which I particularly enjoyed ("You fill up my senses like a night out in Morecambe". The Shadows' Apache got a good mauling too.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 03:53 PM

Dick, they might be meaningless claptrap to you, but I don't see how Cristian or anyone else is going to have any hope of undertaking an academic study of the transmission of songs without understanding the concepts "tradition" and "revival". Are there such imperceptible differences in kind between Walter Pardon and Martin Carthy or Caroline Hughes and Kate Rusby that we don't require terms to define them?

There might well be no "traditional singers" (see, you find the term useful, too!) in 100 years' time, but I don't think it's too great a leap of the imagination to envisage Vic Gammon's successor on the 2107 Traditional Music Course at Newcastle, asking his/her students to prepare an essay entitled "The custodianship of English traditional song passed from the rural working class to the educated urban middle class during the period 1950 - 2010: discuss".

Yes, Alec and Greg, football chants are one of the last great citadels of the oral tradition. At Stockport County yesterday (County 2, Wycombe Wanderers 0, going up, going up, going up) there was a pleasingly wide repertoire, from 1970s favourites - suitably altered for 2007 - to songs I'd never heard before. Songs parodied included "Wild Rover", "Knees Up Mother Brown", "Oh Susanna" and "La Donna E Mobile" amongst others.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 12:42 PM

excellent Greg,
Funny how no one sings at AT G.A. A. matches,only soccer or rugby.
G A A GAELIC ATHLETIC ASSOCIATION .

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 12:15 PM

Re Alecc's remarks about Johnny handle saying the oral tradition was alive and well on the football terrces. I can absolutely agree with this. There is not a shadow of a doubt that, by any definition, we have here living traditional material. i was on a terrace yesterday, watching Stafford v Morecambe. The Morecambe singers, and drummers, were great, and were singing, and playing, in a style appropriate to their environment, and in a style in no way derived from any currently plugged media stuff. The drumming is particularly interesting, as it has some connection with both pop/rock rhythms, and the current fashion for streetband/sama type stuff. But it is definitely not a version of either genre, it is a creation of its own world, and absolutely traditional folk music. And anyone can go out and collect it, any Saturday afternoon.
    Morecambe won, 3-1, by the way.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 09:03 AM

we have been unable to define tradtional music satisfactorily,on other threads.
The important point is not who is singing the song[traditional singer or revival]but how the song is being sung,This is what defines a good singer,interpretation, intonation and communication,not what the persons name is.
when there are no traditional singers for people to collect [and that time is not very far away in my opinion]then the same criteria willbe used ,as is used in other forms of music[as Ioutlined above] and we can get away from this nonsensical traditional /revival singer jargon,which is meaningless claptrap, as we cant even define what traditional is.http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Alec
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 07:41 AM

Quite possibly! :-)

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 07:40 AM

That'll be because most of them cannot or will not read?

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Alec
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 06:09 AM

For myself I agree with something Johnny Handle once said to the effect that the oral tradition is alive & well & living on the football terraces & the school playgrounds.
Though that view is probably a dissertation subject in itself.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Marje
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 05:00 AM

I agree with Shimrod above - when people criticise "labelling", they're conveniently forgetting that every word is a label (well, nouns are anyway). If you're not going to label things, you can't really say anything useful about them. And I also agree that it's often just intellectual laziness that gives rise to that attitude.

Cristian, I think Howard's post there gives you a flavour of the difference between UK and US concepts - as you're studying in the UK, I imagine you'll prefer to stick with UK views, but it's useful to be aware of the differences between our cultures, and of course there are lots of crossover influences in both directions.

As for the oral/aural tradition being irreparably broken, Mary - don't despair, I think it carries on. I have scores of songs in my head that I only ever learned by hearing them, and I'm sure you do too. I may have written the words down at some point to help store them, and even looked up some extra verses or missing lines, but I recall many tunes (both for singing and for playing) that I've never seen written down and never heard recorded. Session tunes get passed around aurally in vast numbers - occasionally you get a request for "the dots", but much of the learning of tunes is aural. I often look up a written score and use it to refresh my memory, but I learn as much by hearing other players and singers as from printed or recorded sources.

The context of the singing and playing is, of course, different from in the past - it's more structured, and less connected with ordinary social activities in the wider community. And the extra means we have at our disposal for searching, storing and retrieving songs and tunes give us access to a vastly wider repertoire than our ancestors had - I think we're very lucky in some ways. I also agree that it's important to treasure the old recordings and written sources, as a way of enriching our understanding and interpretation of the music of our tradition.

Marje

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Patrick Costello
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 10:14 PM

It sounds like you were looking for input from the UK, but I figured I'd go ahead and offer my take on this as an American folk musician.

When it comes to sourcing I'll literally use whatever I come across. Books, recordings, mainstream media and face to face encounters with other musicians. See, in order to be "traditional" there has to be some sort of context in terms of place and time because the role of tradition is to give us a sense of place, a sense of personal history and a sense of connection to our community.

Being a folk musician isn't a matter of playing a particular genre of music or anything like that. It's about taking this thing we call music and using it as a language to express ourselves. That self expression ends up incorporating a pretty diverse amount of information. Who we are as individuals comes across. How and where we learned out craft comes across. How we feel at the moment the music is being played comes across. In other words, our entire story - from our community to our individual personality ends up becoming part of the ingredient of whatever we play. If it's a Child Ballad or some top 40 pop song the overall folk process is still taking place.

I learned to play wandering the streets of Philadelphia bugging every musician I met for help figuring out the banjo and the guitar. That's my story - and as a result that is also my tradition. Twenty-some-odd years later I'm living in rural Maryland and the personal experiences I have had living here have become part of my tradition.

As a musician I can play just about anything you throw at me. Genre is a term that only means something to people who don't grasp the mechanics of music. A Child Ballad or Fergie carrying on about being "T to the A to the S T Y" are little more than different applications of the same basic concepts.

As a folk musician how I use those basic concepts is shaped by my personal experiences.

-Patrick
http://howandtao.com

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 08:02 PM

Brian,you have very little time indeed to get that tax return in. Mudcat posting is displacement activity!
I remember well Harry Boardman's club - those that were part of it will never forget what a great platform it was for trying out newly-unearthed songs and talking about what we were doing about finding songs and how & why we wanted to sing them.
As for the distinctions between traditional and revival singers: I believe there may still be some traditional singers left in the forgotten corners of the UK. But, as the venues for singing traditional material disappear with piped music, big screen TV and 'live bands' taking over from informal pub sessions I reckon there will be fewer and fewer places for such singers to be heard. So there will be precious few - if any - singers learning songs in the traditional way.
If we want to keep 'traditional' song & music alive we will have to rely much more on artificial methods of transference of the tradition. So instead of aural transmission - listening to someone sing right in front of us, as in a pub or in our homes - we will use electronic transmission through recordings or paper transmission through notation and text.

There is much to be said for listening very carefully to recordings of traditional singers ( such as the wonderful selection on Voice of the People) to understand how songs were sung by the transmitters of this material. We should also understand that many of these singers were recorded in later life and the recordings may not be an accurate representation of their vocal skills in the prime of their lives.

There is also a great deal to be said for digging into the collected texts and notated material ( of which there is a huge wealth, much lying in archives waiting to be unearthed) so we can find out what was being sung by traditional singers of a hundred years ago. The variety of songs which I have discovered in my small burrowings into the archives is staggering. This is where I get most of my 'new' material now.

I firmly believe that it would be such a waste of the efforts of those dedicated collectors of last century who carefully preserved on paper what they heard being sung if their collected songs & tunes are not put back into circulation. I do not say put back into the tradition because I am convinced that the old aural/oral method of transmission is irreparably broken.

Mary

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 05:59 PM

Years ago I heard a singer (I think it was Wizz Jones - but I may be wrong), in a Folk Club, sing a song called 'Put A Little Label On It'. The point of the song seemed to be that labelling (or, possibly, defining) things is BAD and that naming things tends to diminish them (in some undefined way - sorry, just realised what I've written!).I didn't agree with that song then - and I don't agree with it now!
My feeling is that if a thing is not named there is a risk that it will disappear before we have a chance of appreciating it. This probably happens every day to living organisms, and it is only when we have labelled them that we have any chance of saving them. If the early collectors hadn't defined traditional/folk music we might have lost it before we had a chance to appreciate and enjoy it.
Personally, I think that this 'horror' of defining/naming/categorising things is just anti-intellectualism (or, perhaps, intellectual laziness) masquerading as philosophical profundity.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 03:09 PM

Definitions of whether someone is traditional or revival may not be important when singing or listening to a song, but it is when discussing singing and it certainly is when writing about it.
I suggest that we would no more abandon our definitions of songs and singing than we would go into a grocers and ask for a tin of soup.
I believe that all of us have very clear definitions of what we mean by the terms we use (though we may not always agree on other's definitions), but it's hard not to notice that some of us have a tendency to claim we don't define things when we find ourselves getting the worst of a discussion.
The same argument applies to those who claim to be far too busy playing or singing to bother with definintions. It would be a very unimaginative musician whose thoughts never stray further than where to put their fingers or how hard to blow.
Jim Carroll
PS Cap'n - still trying to work out what I wrote that you disagreed with in my earlier posting on this thread - ah well!