Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: BB
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 06:00 AM

The suggestion has already been made, and is being done by some Padstow people already, which is to use the St Pirran flag, i.e. white cross on a black background. This would be mistaken by no-one in Cornwall as being anything other than their 'own' flag, and it seems to me to be a really good way out of the situation, keeping the old tradition but bringing it right up to date in a non-confrontational way. And I'm certain that no Cornish people would have any difficulty in explaining that to children - rather, they would encourage it!

Barbara

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 04:55 AM

'crusher, I am impressed, though a little confused, by you conversion to the general cause of sensitivity. Are you going to take the step we have all been urging and suggest an alternative to blacking up?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 07:37 PM

Les in Chorlton is once again sugesting that peopple should use rainbow colours as face-paint.
Being the obviously sensible person thatr he is he must be aware that rainbow colours have been adopted by the "gay" or homosexual community as their "colours".
To use rainbow face-paints in this way would cause offence to either the homosexual or to the heterosexual population.
It may, shortly, be an offence to discriminate, but that doues not mean that public display is acceptable!
Colyn.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: GUEST,floss
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 02:31 PM

no need, cats. Im cornish too.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 08:16 AM

Since you quoted me, I'll answer: nothing at all. By 'rainbow up' I - and I guess Les - simply meant adopting any alternative that is less of a hot-spot.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 07:48 AM

"My personal preference would be, as Les suggested, for the people of Padstow to 'rainbow up' of their own volition."

Perhaps they just don't want to look like hippies. What's wrong with the Cornish Flag facepaint which (according to Cats) already appears to be gaining popularity?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 07:36 AM

I think we have said everything their is to say. Do you peole actually care if people are offended?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: GUEST,Sue
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 06:55 AM

I have been over this thread many times. I am confused. It seems to be that whenever anyone puts anything factual in or describes what is happening now, rather than in the past, people are coming back with hearsay . It is almost as though people do not want to believe the occasion has changed. It seems that very few people contributing to this thread have ever been there or have any intention of going there to see what it is really like. It seems people keep going back to very out of date information and I wonder why. If both the Director of Public Prosecutions and the Commission for Racial Equality have both made in depth studies into this and have both found over many years, that it is not racist, then I can accept that. They would have prosecuted by now if it was. It is almost as if people have latched onto something and because it no longer complies with their stereotype of it, they try to rewrite what is going on. It seems to me that the only person on this thread that has seen this or is concerned enough to explain what really happens now, rather than many years ago is Cats. He obviously cares about our heritage but it seems that some people are having a go at him beacause he is putting in pure facts which do not comply with what they want it to be. I also do not understand where the idea that the people of Padstow would not teach children about it or want it seen anywhere but there has come from. It has been presumed but why and by whom? It is almost as if people want this event to be racist and are upset that it isn't.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Mr Fox
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 06:45 AM

Any truth in the rumour that they have invited Jade Goody as this year's guest of honour?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 05:23 AM

I am no position to comment on Cllr's historical list. Although I have no reason to doubt it, does any of it relate to Padstow or even Cornwall? But I nit-pick.

Cornwall may have a blacking up guising tradition, Cats alludes to this. What ever it was, until a few years ago it owed more in its survival to the minstrel tradition. Clearly they do not wish to keep that alive.

Ruth has challenged the depth of historical evidence. Azizi has, amongst other things, pointed to the complexity of racism and I have been asking why we cannot have a rainbow face or a green face. Lots of other people have made similar points. At last the abuse has stopped.

I don't know if any of those arguing against change actually have anything to do with the "Mummers" because they never say, but in the end they simply do not care if people are offended.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 03:40 AM

Actually, DMcG, I think it would be much healthier for the people who engage in the many blacking-up traditions around the country to acknowledge, where it exists, the less savoury history and heritage of their practice. At the moment, lots of the groups who black up deny that there were ever any negative racial overtones.

They are the ones who are denying and destroying history. Surely coming to terms with that past, and perhaps examining whether they still think that blacking up is the right thing to be doing in 2007, is the best way forward? To be able to say "this is what we used to do, but this is what we do now" wouldn't deny the history (after all, there will always be the written and photographic evidence for the history of the custom), and would pave the way for an approach in future that's more appropriate to the times we live in, rather than being shackled by some notion of preserving the past.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 02:14 AM

Many of the song collector's of old didn't collect the words because they 'were offensive'. Statues in UK churches were destroyed around Cromwell's time because they were offensive. Ditto around Athens. In 1991 important statues of Buddha were destroyed by the Taliban because they were offensive. Oscar Wilde and many others were imprisoned because their behaviour was offensive.

My personal preference would be, as Les suggested, for the people of Padstow to 'rainbow up' of their own volition. There does seem to be an arrogance that is part of human nature, though, that what we believe here and now matters much more than either the history or the future.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: old girl 1
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 06:16 PM

My father 2 brothers & grandfather all worked in the mines they came home each day with black faces, I loved my black doll Topsy & so did my children, my greatgrand child now owns her & loves her, can this be wrong? Rose

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 06:13 PM

The length of time bears no relation on whether it is considered offensive today. I have no idea how long it has been in existence. 100 years, 200 years, 500 years would make no difference to it's relevance today.

I am sure lots of things were going on 1000 years ago that have no place in todays society.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Cllr
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 05:35 PM

The first point and only point I make in my previous post is that mumming, black face, guising is tradtional with over a thousand years of documented evidence.

Something that was either denied earlier in this thread to a lesser or greater extent depending on the poster.

This a purely factual post. I ask again can you accept that
blacking up has been in the uk tradtion for over a thousand years?
Cllr

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 05:03 PM

Can you accept that combined with afro wigs, nigger songs and the name darkie day it can cause offence?

Can you accept the nigger songs, afro wigs and name was changed because of the offensive nature?

Can you accept that even people who advocate it do not think it suitable to be shown to children who do not live in Padstow?

Can you accept that no city in the UK would tolerate it?

Can you accept that taking into account the South West's racism problems they should be trying to address their problems - if they want to.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Cllr
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 12:38 PM

To prove the point that blacking up is over a 1000 yrs old all this information is checkable especially writen records at Elgin



All quotes from Professor Ronald Hutton in 'Stations of the Sun – a History of the Ritual Year in Britain'. He is at University of Bristol – the most prestigious history dept in any UK university.

8th c. Wassailing mentioned in Beowulf

1263        Mumming first recorded in Troyes where the corporation banned it among the populace.

1320        Peter de Langtoft written description of Wassailing

1347        Edward III introduces Mumming into the court using masks of women, men, angels, animal heads and wild men.

1377 The Common Council sends 130 men to salute Richard II ' to go Mumming with the said prince'

1405        Mumming banned from streets of London, Bristol and Chester as the 'combination of dark nights, dark faces and revellers in disguise afforded marvellous opportunity for crime'

1414        Lollard heretics plotted a coup at Eltham Palace ' under colour of Mumming'

1508 Scotland man hanged for stealing whilst under the guise of Mumming.

1599                 a court at Elgin 'forbade guising' as this was the third time in 5 years people had stolen and 'every one of those before had been defied by revellers disguised by blackened faces'

1606        Mummers in Aberdeen 'they presume to mask or disguise themselves'

1655         Calne, Wiltshire dispute between ale house keeper over payment by mummers

1657 reference to mummers from North Aston in Oxfordshire and Frome in Somerset

1659 Mummers in Weston Underwood, Bucks


I have more information which i would like to discuss on further points later. This evidenced information establish the antecedents of mumming/guising/guysing/black - up go back to at least 800 AD

Can you all accept that blacking up in uk traditions is over a thousand years old.? Cllr

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Snuffy
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 09:36 AM

Is this area near Padstow? Is this blackening up tradition separate from that of Padstow? Do these people still blacken up? Were these molly/morris performers singing minstrel songs? Do they still sing these types of songs Are these songs different than those that used to be sung or are still sung in Padstow?

Clee Hill "niggering" is several hundred miles and a hundred years away from present day Padstow. The Clee Hill tradition was not singing but molly/morris DANCING. The similarities are that both customs occurr(ed) in the depths of winter, and both use(d) face blackening.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: GUEST,Winston
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 05:46 AM

Yawn

Please pull the plug on this tedious thread

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 05:11 AM

Absolutley no "Nigger" songs then? Not one at all?

So, only the blacking up is left?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Cats
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 04:49 AM

I did say I would bow out of this thread but I am able to tell you what songs. Fact, not opinion. This year and last year they were 'Camborne Hill', 'Trelawney', 'The Old Grey Duck', 'The White Rose', all Cornish Songs were chosen so noone could even suggest they had any racist overtones whatsoever. Local songs.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 04:34 AM

The afro wigs at sporting events are in the colours of the playing teams, not worn by someone with a blacked up face singing nigger songs. The teams playing are always a good mix of black and white players.

Are you really trying to draw comparison with that and a group of white people in a highly non black area (known for it's racial intolerance) wearing them with blacked faces?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 08:35 PM

Colyn is NOT from "they parts". Oi be 'Ampshire and proud of it!
However, like many others, I would defend to the utmost those British (and Cornish) traditions which survive.
Too frequently we see the loss of tradition duer to "political correctnes", for which The Guardian newspaper must take a very large proportion of the blame.
Regarding so-called "Afro" wigs, if they are so offensive then why are they so frequently seen worn by supporters at any large sporting match? Similarly, the ginger wigs topped by a tartan Tam-o'-Shanter are frequently seen on the heads of football and Rugby crowds. Are these an insult to Scots? From my observatioons it is the Scots who are wearing them!
Colyn.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 04:09 PM

But Michael the sings cannot be passed by. Sorry, didn't realise you were American. This thread is long and and have forgotten how far we have travelled.

Colyn is from They parts can he give us a song?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Goose Gander
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 04:01 PM

Les, you know I don't live in Padstow, and Guest Pat you know that now as well. The songs? Ask someone who sings them, I sing my own songs. I'm an American and I sing American songs (or American versions of British songs). Anyone who has followed this thread knows that I do not claim this tradition as my own, that was never the point of my argument. As for crime, anyone who victimizes others - regardless of ethnicity, religion, age, gender or anything else - deserves to be arrested, tried and convicted. I'm willing to bet that my views on criminal justice are sterner than yours.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 03:40 PM

Perhaps I was misunderstood.

I posted this respost without any comment but I'm interested in reading any comment that supporters of blackening up have about it.


Subject: RE: Tune Req: Oh! Joe the boat's a going over
From: GUEST,Dave Sunshine - PM
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 08:34 PM

"...The tune was used by the morris/molly dancers from Clee Hill area and in 'pre-PC' days was known as 'The niggerin' tune' as the dancers went out with blacked-up faces and called it 'Goin' out a-niggerin'".

-snip-

And now I will post my comments in the form of questions:

Is this area near Padstow? Is this blackening up tradition separate from that of Padstow? Do these people still blacken up? Were these molly/morris performers singing minstrel songs? Do they still sing these types of songs Are these songs different than those that used to be sung or are still sung in Padstow?

Don't you find the terms 'The niggerin' tune' and 'Goin' out a-niggerin'" "offensive?

What kind of messages does this give to people in your country and people in the rest of the world about respect for other people? What kind of message does it give to folks who support this because it's tradition, and to children in those towns who see this support?

And will we still be having this discussion twenty years from now when those children and my grandchildren become adults?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 02:49 PM

As they chant at City matches:
Michael, Michael give us a song
Colyn, Colyn, give us a song

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: GUEST,pat
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 02:45 PM

We didn't simply look at where the most racist incidents occurred. We compared those numbers to the size of the ethnic minority population affected by them, to show relatively who was most at risk. What emerged was a clear picture of rural racism, in which areas such as Devon and Cornwall, Northumbria, Cumbria and Durham, with small ethnic minority populations, had some of the biggest problems.

Four years on, as we count down to another election - one in which immigration has been put into play by both major parties - the time has come to take stock. We have repeated the exercise, using Home Office data quietly released over the past few weeks. The result? Very little has improved and in places the situation is much worse.

The above article from The Guardian..but then you wouldn't be intersted or ashamed of that would you Michael?

Enjoy your tradition.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 02:34 PM

Songs Michael, tell us about the songs?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Goose Gander
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 01:56 PM

Guest Pat -

I wouldn't have Mardi Gras Indians march on a Navajo reservation either. I hate the idea that culture should be homogenized to make it inoffensive to everyone. The same reason I don't like McDonalds, Disneyland and neocons any more than I like political correctness and marxism.

If you haven't noticed, the rest of the 21st century has race crime problems and much more, but I doubt any of that can be blamed on "Darkie Days"

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 01:34 PM

Is anyone prepared to tell us which songs are sung on "Mummres Day"?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 01:25 PM

"I highly doubt any of the particpants are planning an excursion to any place where the locals would be upset by the proceedings."

So it's okay, as long as no black people see it? Maybe Padstow ought to put up signs round the village warning anyone of non-white British origin not to visit, just in case. "Stay away on Darkie Day" - that has a catchy ring.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: GUEST,pat
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 01:22 PM

What a disappointing response michael. You have admitted the event is not suitable for young children to be shown anywhere other than Padstow. But it is shown to young children in Padstow.

Thereby allowing future generations to think your 'tradition' is acceptable. It isn't. And that is why it wouldn't be tolerated in any city area, as you well know.

Padstow is part of the UK and has responsibilities as such. No wonder Cornwall has such a race crime problem. Wake up and join the rest of us in the 21st century.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 12:31 PM

Michael you have conceded that aspect of "Darkie Days" has been offensive by changing the name and part of the dress because I guess you felt ti was offensive.

Please tell us that the community that puts on this public event will re-consider blacking up because that is far more offensive.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Goose Gander
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 12:12 PM

Azizi -

I don't believe any topics should be out of bounds in a university setting. To give an example what this can lead to, in a school I once attended, an instructor was chastised for presenting documentary evidence from the WPA about the daily lives of enslaved African-Americans. It just happened to be an excellent source to understand the experience from the point of view of former slaves, but because some students may have found the material offensive, an administrator came down on that professor.

Les -

Regarding offence and conceding the point, I don't know if you are refering to the possible offensiveness or blacking-up or lesser subject of my possibly offensive tone. Whatever the case, I'll say what I said before - there is no right not to be offended. As I've also said, many things offend me. I am offended, for example, by evangelical Christians who claim divine mandate for aggressive wars on the other side of the globe, but I would not shut down their churches.

Ruth Archer -

I have tried to answer your question as thoughtfully as possible. I'll try on last time: Again, it depends on the context. I would not show this material to young children because it is not age-appropriate. I thought I made this clear, but perhaps not.

"If there was a display of this kind of dancing in an inner-city area, how would it go down? In my opinion it would be taken very badly and many people would be offended, because as i see it, it is a backward step."

Off topic and not relevant. This event is not held in an inner-city area, it's held in Padstow. It's a local event not meant to offend anyone. I highly doubt any of the particpants are planning an excursion to any place where the locals would be upset by the proceedings.

Finally, the deeper roots of blacking up are antecedent to minstrelsy. Those who black up nowadays do not identify with minstrelsy, as far as I can tell. I would grant them enough respect to take them at their word.

And that's it for me. If you want the last word, Ruth Archer or anyone else, go ahead and take it.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 04:35 AM

There are two issues here. One is the act itself, and the other is the desire (or not) to cause offence.

I do not believe that the good people of Padstow set out, in 2007, deliberately to cause offence. Nor do I believe that the people who took part in minstrelsy necessarily hated blacks. We agree there. My grandad, as it happens, was an enthusiastic performer in minstrel shows. And you want to talk photographic evdence, I've got loads. I don't believe he was a deliberate and conscious racist - but that doesn't mean that what he did wasn't a racist act, deliberately or otherwise.

My point about Padstow, and the other blacking up traditions in England, is that many of them are rooted in or are deeply entwined with minstrelsy. But a lot of the people who take part in them today will tell you that this is not the case, citing the old chestnuts about disguise as the reason why they do what they do. This isn't necessarily a deliberate attempt to hide the truth - many of them probably believe this, as it's what they've been told themselves, possibly by older generations who wish to protect their tradition or who might simply be embarrassed about the truth.

My argument is a simple one: if people want to continue blacking up, they should be willing to acknowledge that, at one time, their tradition may well have been rooted in a practice which would be deeply offensive to many people in Britain today. They need to accept this as part of the heritage of what they do, rather than sweeping it under the carpet. Now, if that bothers them, perhaps they should think about stopping. Or choose a different colour. And if it doesn't bother them, perhaps they ought to ask themselves why.

"If blacking-up was presented as one among many inversion rituals and practices, I believe it would suitable to present graphic and video evidence of the practice."

Again, this is not my question. I asked whether, in introducing children to English traditional song and dance, you'd be happy to see blacking-up traditions, with all their chequered history, presented as something to be equally proud of. Would you be happy to show those early photographs of Padstow to a black child? It's that simple.

Finally, a few people have said that it would be interesting to hear from a black person what they feel about all of this. Well, the article from EDS that I quoted earlier interviewed several people about the practice, including a dance caller named Nigel Hogg. This is what he had to say:

"I have watched many different dance groups around the country, and on certain occasions I have seen groups black up to perform. As a mixed race man I do find this tradition offensive because I see it as a parody mocking people of colour. I would imagine that the people who perform these dances are not racists, and on some levels the people involved have not even though about the implications these dances might have to people of colour.

The bottom line is that we now live in multicultural Britain, and although these forms are traditional, they are not really acceptable anymore. Times, attitiudes and trends move on, and now is time to move forward, not just in dance and song. If there was a display of this kind of dancing in an inner-city area, how would it go down? In my opinion it would be taken very badly and many people would be offended, because as i see it, it is a backward step. I do not think that blacking up to dance achieves multi-racial harmony."

So, not just us white middle class do-gooders finding it offensive, then. I don't know about you, but i am always really chuffed to see black and Asian people at traditional events, from festivals to calendar customs. I think it says something incredibly positive about the culture we live in. The idea of people of different backgrounds trying to engage positively with English traditional culture being confronted with a blacking-up tradition that has its roots in minstrelsy is incredibly depressing.

But maybe that's just me.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 04:24 AM

"If blacking-up was presented as one among many inversion rituals and practices, I believe it would suitable to present graphic and video evidence of the practice."

Good point Mike. But we are not. "Darkie Days" are and have been a very public event as is the Oss. Many of us have travelled many miles to see these events. They are nationally and probably internationally known and reported.

We all seem to accept that the origins of blacking up have roots in English history and Minstrelsy. You have pointed out that Minstrelsy contributed much to American Culture, so it did. Black People have contributed so much that almost no area of 19 - 20C music would be possible with out that contribution. During that period Black People were and continue to be exploited and to have been the victims of racial discrimination. But I guess we all agree about this?

So, where are we know? A living tradition exists in Cornwall. It has evolved over hundreds of years. Its practitioners, have responded to a greater understanding, have decided to stop wearing "Afro" wigs and calling the Event "Darkie Days" even though they believe they have innocent historic reasons for using that name.

What ever discussion went on within the "Darkie Days" community that resulted in the loss of wigs and change of name would not that discussion explore and reject blacking up for the same reasons that they rejected wigs and Darkie Days?

Look, you seem to have conceded the point about offence.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 03:43 AM

I repeat a question I asked in 2005: Have there been any research studies of the impact of UK blackening up traditions on self-esteem and group-esteem of people of colour in the UK and on White people in the UK? If so, what were those studies and what were their results?

It seems to me that such studies would be beneficial prior to or in the context of pre-university as well as university educational settings having any educational experiences that invlolve videos, photographic displays, performances,and open discussion about blackening up traditions as they relate or don't relate to 19th century minstrelsy traditions in the US and in the UK.

The http://www.britishcouncil.org/home-diversity-areas-of-activity-race.htm may be one resource that can be used in such an open discussion about racism. Here are some excerpts from that website:


"The vocabulary available for considering and discussing issues to do with race and ethnicity is sensitive and changes over time. It can also sometimes be a matter of argument and disagreement, and often therefore unclear and inadequate.

The same word means or implies different things to different people. So a term which is unproblematic and indeed positive for one person may be questionable or offensive for another...

Institutional racism
In addition to the recognition of direct and indirect forms of discrimination, it is widely acknowledged that institutional racism is a reality in the UK. The inquiry into the murder of Stephen Lawrence a young, Black British man highlighted this and offered the following definition of such racism:

"Institutional racism consists of the collective failure of an organisation to provide an appropriate and professional service to people because of their colour, culture or ethnic origin. It can be seen or detected in processes, attitudes and behaviours which amount to discrimination through unwitting prejudice, ignorance, thoughtlessness, and racist stereotyping which disadvantage minority ethnic people."

-snip-

Wouldn't discussions about blackening up traditions in educational settings get around to the question of whether such customs wittingly or unwittingly promote racist setereotyping?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Goose Gander
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 10:39 PM

"Now, would you be comfortable introducing a Black-British or British-Asian child to the many blacking-up traditions? What about those rooted in minstrelsy? The nigger songs? Come to think of it, is this something you'd like White British children to celebrate as part of their heritage?"

I'm afraid it was you who went off topic with this set of hypothetical questions. The conversation was about a specific practice in a specific time and place, a practice that I insisted should be seen in that narrow context. Be that as it may, and since my initial response to this set of questions proved unsatisfactory to you, I'll give it another shot. My response - It would depend on the context. If blacking-up was presented as one among many inversion rituals and practices, I believe it would suitable to present graphic and video evidence of the practice. Other examples would include "whiting up" in Africa and the Caribbean, Native American gender reversal practices would also be up for discussion (by children, I'll assume you mean up to high school age - there are a number of topics that probably aren't suitable for small children, and they don't all involve race, gender, strange clothing and face paint). Another example: If I was teaching nineteenth-century American history, yes I would let them see and hear examples of blackface minstrelsy - it's important and its influence resounds to this day.

"All your sources for the positive impacts of minstrelsy are just a smokescreen, because what we're talking about is specifically the BLACKING UP. That's the bit we're interrogating."

If you've indeed read the sources I listed, you would know that each does not so much argue for a 'positive impact' as argue for the significance and complexity of minstrelsy. Eric Lott digs into the meaning minstrelsy held for performers and the audience, writing that "the social unconscious of blackface suggests that whites involved in minstrelsy were from unenthusiastic about black cultural practices." Hence the title. From William Mahar, minstrel performances "were simply too diverse to support the hypothesis that all burnt cork comedy focused on racial issues." Minstrel groups in some cases performed Italian operas, for crying out loud. Dale Cockrell traced minstrelsy's origins to English and northern Irish mumming plays, and argued that the conventional understanding of minstrelsy as an expression of "unrelenting hatred of blacks by working-class urban white males . . . (is) ahistorical. It ascribes meaning without understanding context . . . ." Hans Nathan dealt extensively with the musical side of minstrelsy (the enduring and most significant aspect, in my opinion), and found contributions and antecedents traceable to white European and black African sources.

"Fact is, dressing up to mock another culture is racially offensive."

Now you are claiming to know what you cannot know - the motivations and feelings of Padstow residents. I wonder, however, if you would similarly attack the Mardi Gras Indians of New Orleans (and I'll be very disappointed with you if you don't know what I'm talking about).

"Finally, can I ask you to keep your comments on topic, and not resort to personal insults and offensiveness. Thank you."

I am sorry if you don't like my tone and my language, but all my posts have been on topic. We just understand the topic differently.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 09:21 PM

No one is talking about the musical pedigree of minstrelsy. Fact is, dressing up to mock another culture is racially offensive. That's why they took it off the telly. That's why some of the Americans here have said you could probably get arrested for doing this in the states. And that's why people like Cat, bless him, have become apologists for the practice (it was only ever about disguise, and the afro wigs were rainbow-coloured - course they were, love).

"cultural practices and artifacts related to or derived from minstrelsy are inappropriate and should be ended."

nope - just the bit where you dress up as a caricature of another racial group to belittle, stereotype and demean them. Umm, that would mainly be the offensive bit. Oh, and the songs which are racially offensive. You better hang on to those, too. But anything else, I'm good with. All your sources for the positive impacts of minstrelsy are just a smokescreen, because what we're talking about is specifically the BLACKING UP. That's the bit we're interrogating. I was specifically challenging the assertion that blacking up, in Padstow and elsewhwere, was not about indulging a racist pastime, but was a completely unrelated practice, to do with miners, and disguise. Now, there may well be some truth in that. But what there is also incontravertable evidence of is that, at some point, Darkie Day became associated with a different kind of blacking up - the kind that is a nasty, offensive racial stereotype. Now, once this becomes clear, the idea of perpetuating the practice of blacking up in 2007 has completely different sociopolitical overtones, and it's not just about the people of Padstow. it's about the wider context, and what we, as a SOCIETY, are prepared to tolerate.

Don't tell me it's none of my business because I don't live in Padstow. The traditions of this country belong to everyone. It's our cultural heritage, and it's one I want to be proud of.

"I would not introduce "blacking up" into anyone's school program - and noone has suggested it should be."

No, no one has - but that wasn't actually the question, was it? You've chosen deliberately to twist the question so that you don't have to answer it, and I can only presume that this is because you have no answer. Which is fine - but at least be honest.

Finally, can I ask you to keep your comments on topic, and not resort to personal insults and offensiveness. Thank you.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: GUEST,pat
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 08:14 PM

Nobody suggested blacking up should be introduced into the local school programme - it was asked whether the exponents of it would feel comfortable doing so.

If an exponent of it would not feel comfortable doing so, why would they not feel comfortable doing so? Afterall we are being told it is part of our heritage worth preserving , so why should it not be taught and celebrated?

Could it be for the same reason that the name has been changed and the afro wigs dropped? Because it causes offence.

Seeing as no one has yet been able to answer this question we can only speculate.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 07:38 PM

Excellently and eloquently said, Michael.
Colyn.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Goose Gander
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 06:51 PM

I know I said I was gone, but sanctimonious pieties of Ruth Archer and Derek Schofield have driven me back.

The evidence noted by Cats indicates that "blacking up" preceded minstrelsy. Even Ruth Archer cited a reference to the practice from the mid-seventeenth century. Certainly, these and related practices became conflated with minstrelsy in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. And this, if I understand her, is at least one of the pillars upon which her arguement stands. "Darkie Days" is related historically - to a certain, if unclear degree - to black face minstrelsy, and hence is 'inappropriate' and worthy of censor (self-censor or otherwise). Alright then, let's look at North America and consider a hypothetical scenario -

a. minstrelsy is offesive
b. cultural practices and artifacts related to or derived from minstrelsy are inappropriate and should be ended.

Now let's take a look at what we lose. Blackface minstrelsy was far more complex than the Ruth Archers and Derek Schofields of the world would have us believe. Minstrelsy was one of the primary mediums (not the first and not the only, though) through which white and black musical forms and styles cross-fertilized and mingled. The distinctive folk and popular forms of North American music were created through this process of hybridization. Do you enjoy jazz, ragtime, country, blues and rock and roll? Minstrelsy lies within the family tree of all. But minstrelsy is offensive, so into the garbage they go.

For a more balanced view of the significance of minstrelsy than you'll find in the screeds of Ruth Archer and others, try the following:

Eric Lott, Love and Theft (New York and Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1993)

William Mahar, Behind the Burnt Cork Mask (Urbana and Chicago: University of Illinois Press, 1999).

Dale Cockrell, Demons of Disorder (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1997)

Hans Nathan, Dan Emmett and the Rise of Early Negro Minstrelsy (Norman, Oklahoma: University of Oklahoma Press, 1962)

"Early Banjo Tunes and American Syncopation," The Musical Quarterly, Vol. 42, No. 4 (Oct 1956), pp. 455-472

And there's plenty more where that came from. You might want to do a little homework before making blanket statements about a topic of which you seem to know so little. But that requires time and effort of mind, and it's so much easier to pile up on someone else's tradition and take some local custom out of context for your own ego gratification.

I'm not even defending blacking up, I'm defending the right of the residents of Pastow to conduct local traditions as they see fit. Traditions develop and evolve out of give and take between myriad competing and mutually reinforcing influences. "Darkie Days" may fade away, or it may evolve into something related yet qualitively different. Either way, it's noone else's goddamn business. I would not introduce "blacking up" into anyone's school program - and noone has suggested it should be. I am arguing that a local event should be understood in a local context. Someone who really had any respect for cultural differences wouldn't be trying to impose their luke-warm, politically correct, university jargon-ridden misunderstandings on someone else's party.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 04:02 PM

"Please stop trying to change history."

Umm, i don't think that's what I'm doing. I've actually pointed to two respected researchers into English calendar custom, one of whom has been good enough to coment here, and their research into blacking up and its connection to minstrelsy.

And as I've said, one of them has actually drawn A DIRECT LINK, supported by photographic evidence, between Darkie Day and minstrelsy.

Now, from what I can tell, it's the people of Padstow (or Cat in particular) who want to pretend that this is not true. that "Darkie" only ever referred to dark nights, and that blacking up in Padstow was only ever a disguise from employers and was NEVER about racial stereotyping.

So tell me again - who's trying to change history?

Denial - it ain't just a river in Egypt.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Azizi
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 03:39 PM

Here's another repost:

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Azizi - PM
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 07:59 PM

I'm been away from a computer for most of the day, and have just read posts since earlier this morning.

And I feel a need to comment again about this subject..

I would like to first say that I knew nothing of the European custom of blackening before joining Mudcat 6 months ago. All of know about these customs I have learned from reading these posts, and reading links that have been given on this and other Mudcat threads, and reading one book on South African music that included a chapter on 19th century minstrelsy in Britain.

I acknowledge my lack of direct information, and like Brucie wrote upthread, I am trying to learn more about these customs.

I would, for instance, I would like to know the titles of other books and articles that discuss the past & present relationships between blackening up and the American minstrel traditions For surely such connections existed and appear to still exist, perhaps as new departures from old ways, and perhaps not..

I would also like to know if any studies have been done to assess the opinions of British people of color regarding blackening up. Futhermore, have any scholarly studies been done to assess the impact, if any, of blackening up on the self -esteem and group esteem of Black Britons and other British people of color? It just seems to me that this subject is too important to be relegated to anecdotal stories about whether a person's Black or Indian friends or acquaintances feel offended or do not feel offended by blackening up customs.

Also, it seems to me that people should be interested in whether there were any short term or long term consequences to Whites as a result of their participation in or general knowledge of these customs {for instance, are their differences between the racial attitudes and levels of multi-cultural acceptance of those who participate or do not participate in these customs?}

That being said, I acknowledge that I am very prone to be sceptical of assertions that 'darkie' refers to the dark days, or the only reason why black paint was used was as a disguise so that a worker's boss would not recognize him.. These seem to me to be more like contemporary, politically correct reasons for ancient customs whose original purposes may not ever be totally known-or whose members want to defray accusations [warranted or unwarranted of their insensitivity...

Note that I said "insensitivity" and not "racism"...

This is another time where it would be helpful if Mudcat had posters who are Black Britons and other people of color from Europe and from elsewhere. That being said, I believe this is a HUMAN issue irregarless of one's race.. The central question to me of blackening is what is most important: ancient traditions or treating people with dignity and respect. My concern is that people [individuals and specific groups of people]be treated with dignity and respect.
If, in my opinion, a tradition does not do that, then, as far as I'm concerned, to hell with the tradition.

And this too I believe-given the history of the United States, if private groups were to publicly perform such blackening disguises here, then lawsuits would be filed to halt that practice. And I would be glad about that [and might even initiate or join in such a law suit].

El Greko asked where do we draw the line..and I don't know the answer to that question. All I know is that blackening up is offensive to me whether it is done by [perhaps] well meaning White people or [perhaps] well meaning African Americans who are members of the New Orleans Mardi Gras Zulu kewe.

I accept the fact that some people here at Mudcat and elsewhere may feel that it is offensive of me to have this viewpoint.

I am willing to agree that we will not agree on this issue.

thread.cfm?threadid=78748
Padstow Darkie Days [2005]

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Azizi
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 03:33 PM

And here's a Mudcast post reposted without comment:

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Oh! Joe the boat's a going over
From: GUEST,Dave Sunshine - PM
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 08:34 PM

A version of the 'A' part of the tune is also used for the tune known as 'Clee Hill' as collected from Dennis Crowther who is from that area, which is not far from Ludlow in South Shropshire. The tune was used by the morris/molly dancers from Clee Hill area and in 'pre-PC' days was known as 'The niggerin' tune' as the dancers went out with blacked-up faces and called it 'Goin' out a-niggerin' The use of the term molly instead of morris,was common in Shropshire and I have met people who remembers 'Going out molly-dancing' in East Shropshire in the 1930s-40s

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Azizi
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 03:32 PM

An excerpt from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackface

"Blackface is a style of theatrical makeup that originated in the United States, used to affect the countenance of an iconic, racist American archetype — that of the darky or coon. Blackface also refers to a genre of musical and comedic theatrical presentation in which blackface makeup is worn. White blackface performers in the past used burnt cork and later greasepaint or shoe polish to blacken their skin and exaggerate their lips, often wearing woolly wigs, gloves, tailcoats, or ragged clothes to complete the transformation. Later, black artists also performed in blackface.

Blackface was an important performance tradition in the American theater for over 100 years and was also popular overseas. Stereotypes embodied in the stock characters of blackface minstrelsy played a significant role in cementing and proliferating racist images, attitudes and perceptions worldwide. In some quarters, the caricatures that were the legacy of blackface persist to the present day and are a cause of ongoing controversy.

By the mid-20th century, changing attitudes about race and racism effectively ended the prominence of blackface performance in the U.S. and elsewhere. However, it remains in relatively limited use as a theatrical device, mostly outside the U.S., and is more commonly used today as edgy social commentary or satire. Perhaps the most enduring effect of blackface is the precedent it established in the introduction of African American culture to an international audience, albeit through a distorted lens. Blackface minstrelsy's groundbreaking appropriation, exploitation, and assimilation of African-American culture — as well as the inter-ethnic artistic collaborations that stemmed from it — were but a prologue to the lucrative packaging, marketing, and dissemination of African-American cultural expression and its myriad derivative forms in today's world popular culture".

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: guitar
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 03:28 PM

I mean it's a part of their festival, their custom as well.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: GUEST,pat
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 03:14 PM

I wish at least one advocate of blacking up for Darkie Day would address Ruth's question, as to whether they would feel comfortable showing todays black/asian British children their custom.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 03:08 PM

But the defence of blacking up is historic.

Our objections are that this practice is currently offensive.

As time moves on, so those pop songs become old-fashioned and are no longer used.

rainbow up!