Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 02:59 PM

Ruth Archer, I am sure you have the common sense to realise that any form of public display of music and dance will reflect the fashionable music of the time. This is why we today have "pop stars" attempting to act in pantomime and the modern, American influenced, baton-twirling majorettes in local carnivals.
Minstrel songs were popular in the 1920's and '30s - see any music book of that time for proof. I have two "News Chronicle" song books, both of which contain Negro Spirituals and Plantation Songs (quoting from the titles). A date in one is 1932 and I know the book wsa second-hand then, because it belonged to my late Father-in-Law.
So, of course, songs of years ago were likely to have been the "pop somgs" of their day, in the same way as some of our folk songs were of their time.
As time moves on, so those pop songs become old-fashioned and are no longer used.
So it is with Padstow Darkie Days.
Please stop trying to change history. Just accept that things have moved on and enjoy that which is current, in the same way as you today enjoy a particular band who, tomorrow, yu will not even look at!
Colyn.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 02:15 PM

I was just consulting Sreve Roud's new book, The English Year, about a completely different calendar custom, and happened upon the reference to Padstow.

He draws a very defnite link between mistrelsy and Padstow Darkie Day. He cites photographs circa 1900 of revellers in full minstrel guise, and of course discusses the songs that derived directly from minstrelsy, but i believe these have now been phased out...?

I'm not saying that this contravenes what Cat has said, but perhaps the fact that Darkie Day DID, for a significant period of its history, become entwined with the minstrelsy customs in Britain, needs to be acknowledged when discussing this (and other similar) traditions.

And it makes me ask once again: would you be happy to show Black-British or Asian-British children these pictures to familiarise them with the traditional heritage of this country, and happily defend the fact that people STILL black up as part of this tradition, but, well, it's kind of different now because at least they've stopped wearing the wigs and changed the name...?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Cats
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 12:47 PM

PS forgot to say to Floss, yes that's one interpretation of our National Flag, the St Piran's Cross. Another popular one is that it is the tin shining through the rocks. But it is ours and we do fly it proudly. If you see one at a festival come and investigate as it might just be us and we come supplied with copious amounts of Rum and Shrub

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Cats
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 12:44 PM

As I said previously, and you can check this on the internet, we have the words to Cornish Mummers plays, with the names of the people who actually played the characters, from the 1780's and from this we know they were blacking faces then.   I know that there were mummers in disguise who came to my house at Christmas 1600 as I have found references to this in the Kew documents. My house was the Dower House for the Manor of Rillaton, built 1599, [try googling Rillaton Gold Cup] and the Manor goes back before 1068, was the most important Hundred in Cornwall, and is in the Doomsday Book. This year we reencated one of the plays for the village in my house at the Wassail. There are guise dance tunes and the steps which have been researched and published by Merv Davwy and Mike O'Connor from long before 1780. If you look at the Wikipedia references which I have previously suggested you will find the information there. There is also a huge amount which is just recently coming to light in the Truro Public Records Office which pre dates anything in general publication so far.[This is Really Exciting] The custodians are so excited about what is now being found that they are sending the references straight to Mike and he is researching them, which is a very slow and painstaking job.   Only a very small part of what he has found so far has been published but try Ilo Kernow for a start.. He is building an increasingly in depth history of Cornish Music and Dance. There are references, for example, to the parliamentarian troops in 1649, being sent to Padstow to quell the festivities on May day but never getting there and disappearing totally. These are in the Basing House documents. I cannot say exactly, the very first date given to Padstow but there is documented evidence that the same thing happened all over the county and Padstow is the only one that still remains in its 'original', albeit somewhat changed, form as opposed to Madron, St Ives, Kingsand, Cawsand, Looe, etc which have changed form to everyone dressing in fancy dress. There is alot in Padstow Museum and held by the Old Cornwall Societies and Helston Folk Museum. Unless you lived down here you might not be aware of our heritage and what is coming to light. Perhaps you need to visit and check it out as much of it is still in the various records.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: GUEST,floss
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 11:53 AM

The white cross in the Cornish flag of St.Piran is to symbolise the light of christ shining into the four corners Cornwall, not related to the KKK...although that will probably offend someone, by the look of things ! And I think you will find that the Cornish are far from unenlightened.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 08:11 AM

Cat, before you go can you just quantify the following statement?

"There are very early photographs. Guising in Padstow is not something that came in with minstrelsy. "

What is very early in this context? I'm genuinely interested, because it's relevant to the discussion. If you have more specific information, I'd be grateful.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Cats
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 07:54 AM

I am sorry that a sentrence which I can see now is grammatically incorrect has caused so much confusion. If you look carefully the sentence says there is photographic and written evidence. I should have put in a comma to make it photographic, and written, I suppose. I would have thought, though, that the meaning of it was obvious. I am quite aware that photographs have not been around for centuries, although, if you want to be pernickity, they have as we are now in the 21st and photographs were around in the 19th, but I'm not that picky. There is written evidence and it can be found in Padstow museum and local collections.   There are very early photographs. Guising in Padstow is not something that came in with minstrelsy. Also, Derek, that photograph may well have been in a 2007 newspaper but it was, most definitley, not taken in recent years. It is one of those that gets pulled from files year on year and is so annoying as it just fuels the media and gives no credit for the changes.
Anyway, as I said in the beginning, and I only put in the information I have as I live in Cornwall and must be one of the very few people contributing to this thread and discussion that has been there and seen it and know the people who do it, both the Director of Public Prosecutions and the Commission For Racial Equality have examined the tradition of guising, whatever you want to call it, in Padstow and found it is not racist, nor is there any racist intent. It is an English Tradition and has no racist overtones whatsoever. Their words, not mine. I now bow out. If you really want to know what it is all about, rather than pontificate from afar... come and see it for yourselves, then make your decision. You will be made welcome.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 05:33 AM

Derek edits English Dance and Song, the magazine of the English Folk Dance and Song Society. It was his article I quoted from earlier, so it's nice to have his contribution here.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 04:45 AM

You wont be surprised that I am with Ruth.

I am interested in Bonecruncher Colyn's list of what we must do before we can comment on blacking up. I am with him/her on practically all of that list, I do some and campaigne, a bit on others. Most Folkies seem to lie over that side too.

As for denial, I am not clear about what I appear to be denighing. The history of most these practises is rather short on evidence.

"Having looked into blacking up for the EDS feature that Ruth Archer has kindly quoted from, there is undoubtedly an influence on English folk culture from minstrelsy. Bacup may be one, Padstow mummers may be another, the 20th century traditional Border morris which has been copied by revival sides might be another."

This quote from Derek Schofield, is this Derek the Editor of the English Folk Dance and Song Society?

I think Ruth has made an important point,

"would you be comfortable introducing a Black-British or British-Asian child to the many blacking-up traditions? What about those rooted in minstrelsy? The nigger songs? Come to think of it, is this something you'd like White British children to celebrate as part of their heritage?"

Many of us in folk have a, perhaps unwelcome, missionary zeal about sharing our living heritage. Some of us, moved by the Blues sort English Roots music because we felt singing Delta Blues was not for us, whilst old English songs was. We sing, we dance we perform ritual plays in public because ........... well fill in your own dots.

When I danced Northwest Morris in the streets of the North West I felt their was some link with working people who came to the region in the Industrial Revolution, as migrant workers, lived a hard life and found ways of singing and dancing to celebrate. I found that the multi ethnic collections of teenagers that I taught, were interested when they saw me in the streets. I chatted to them and they never used it against me on Monday morning. Chatting to them whilst blacked up would have been at least difficult.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 08:04 PM

Why are you so defensive, Mike? No one is claiming that other cultures are perfect, but this particular discussion is about an aspect of English traditional culture. It's not about trying to undermine or destroy tradition. If traditions are living things, then they grow and evolve and change with the times. And if there is an aspect of a tradition that has the potential for causing offence, what is so wrong with interrogating it? What are you afraid of, exactly?

I dsagree with you that the only 'we' in this discussion are the people of Padstow. Padstow is one blacking-up tradition. There are many. In this day and age, it is absolutely right that we should be debating whether this is a practice that is appropriate in 21st century Britain. I'm not saying that it necessarily ought to be abolished, funnily enough. I'm saying that it's a debate that ought to be allowed to happen, with the fullness of evidence and research to be called upon, rather than folklore, conjecture and apocrypha.

I'll tell you why I think it's important in the context of English traditional cultures: because this is such an interesting time in terms of defining the English identity. I work with schools comprised of children of different backgrounds and faiths, but we bring English traditional dance and song into those schools. I think it's very important that both children from indigenous backgrounds AND those from diverse cultures get to experience the traditions of this country, so that they understand that these traditions belong to them, and comprise part of their heritage, whether they were born here or not.

Now, would you be comfortable introducing a Black-British or British-Asian child to the many blacking-up traditions? What about those rooted in minstrelsy? The nigger songs? Come to think of it, is this something you'd like White British children to celebrate as part of their heritage?

No one is trying to "whitewash" anything. Yes, these things were once a very popular part of popular culture. But that doesn't mean they should be forever perpetuated. "Traditional" does not equal sacrosanct.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 07:56 PM

Thank you, Michael Morris.
However, I am expecting not "thoughtful" but "vitriol".
Colyn.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Goose Gander
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 07:43 PM

Colyn, you hit the nail right on the head, much better than I could. So I'm bowing out of this discussion. I will be interested to see if anyone cares to respond thoughtfully to your post.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Goose Gander
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 07:30 PM

I'm not offended, and even if I was you are not obligated to apologize.

"So it's a question of what we do about actions that, for perfectly good reasons, may cause offence, whether that offence is intentional or not."

Who exactly are 'we'? The only relevant 'we' in this story are the residents of Padstow. If they choose to alter or even abandon this event, that's their business. If they choose to continue as they have done in the past, that's their business, too.

"It's an issue that transcends Padstow, and actually goes right to the heart of English traditional culture."

Are you on a similar mission to find and root out 'offensive' elements in other, non-English cultures? I'm guessing not - after all, that would be 'insensitive' and 'non-inclusive'.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 07:30 PM

I asm most surprised that people who describe themselves as "folkies" should be so adamant in trying to change history, when they should be defending it against the less knowledgeable.
To try and black out, or whitewash, (Two words which are bound to give offence to someone or other!) part of Britain's history is the same as those who state that the Holocaust never happened!

You sit around and sing about a the lives of farmers, fishermen, miners, ag. labs. etc. and yet you know nothing about the ways in which they had to work. Most of you could not even cook yourselves a meal in the way in which your great-grandmother could, let alone show the resourcefulness and the abilities of your recent ancestors!
Be proud of what our ancestors did for us, their traditions and their way of life. There are too many bleeding-heart liberals (with a small "L") armed with a blue pencil to eradicate and censor that of which "they" do not approve.
I would have thought folkies were above that mentality!

When you can convince the rest of the world that you have spent your time campaigning against the lack of education of women in certain faiths, the circumcision of women, so-called "Honour killings" then others might believe that you have a real, rather than a fashionable, interest.

At the same time you would be expected to buy your food locally, from the nearest farmer rather than from the supermarket. Your meat should come from the butcher, not in a supermarket plastic wrapper. Remember that many supermarket animals are the product of deforestation of South American rainforests, to the detriment of the climate affecting each and every one of us!

I hope that you do not wear fashionable clothes, since most of them are made by child labour or by people having to work for pennies per day. Slave labour, in other words!
Do you buy your furniture from some do-it-yourself shed or flat-pack shop? Is their timber Forestry Stewardship Council registered, from sustainable resources? Why not buy it from your local cabinet-maker, as the antique of tomorrow?

Perhaps, when you can honestly answer that you do all of the above, and more, then you can preach to the rest of us as to what we should do and how we should do it.

Until then, please be quiet!

Colyn.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 07:03 PM

I don't think that's Derek's point, Mike. I think he's saying that although the intention to offend may not be present, offence may still be incurred.

So it's a question of what we do about actions that, for perfectly good reasons, may cause offence, whether that offence is intentional or not. It's an issue that transcends Padstow, and actually goes right to the heart of English traditional culture, inclusiveness and tolerance.

I'm sorry if such PC concepts cause offence. None was intended.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Goose Gander
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 06:37 PM

"But who decides what gives offence and to whom?"

Precisely. Anyone likely to be offended can refrain from attending, viewing footage, or reading accounts of the event.

There must be some more worthy cause than hassling these people.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 05:47 PM

I don't believe the photograph of Padstow highlighted by Guest Pat has been doctored. It was printed in the Guardian on 3 January 2007, and that newspaper is quite scrupulous at not doctoring images. I have seen this photo printed before.
So, a few observations ....
Cats: there can be no photographic evidence for the merrymakers blacking up for hundreds of years. There is no evidence that the Bacup nutters' dance came from Cornwall ... apocraphal stories ... most customs seem to have them ...

Having looked into blacking up for the EDS feature that Ruth Archer has kindly quoted from, there is undoubtedly an influence on English folk culture from minstrelsy. Bacup may be one, Padstow mummers may be another, the 20th century traditional Border morris which has been copied by revival sides might be another.
The question is ...has the blacking up transcended its origin and now have a life of its own?
Does this practice offend sectors of our society? (And I don't mean just the black members of our society ... white people might also be offended).
And if so, are we prepared to do anything about it?

For whatever reason, the people of Padstow are doing something about it - and well done to them. I have spoken to many people who either live in Padstow or visit the town and they say that there is no intention to cause offence, which I have no reason to disagree with. But who decides what gives offence and to whom?
Derek Schofield

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 05:28 PM

And in the UK darkie is a well known racist name for black people. Most commonly heard by saturday night comics in the 1960's. Combine that with blacking the faces and wearing afro wigs puts it into context.

They have changed the name and dropped the afro wigs. They are holding onto the bastion of the blacking up. They wouldn't do it in any inner city area of the UK. They feel safe doing it somewhere where the black population is at a guess 1%.

If they are that far behind enlightenment they are to be pitied really.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Joybell
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 05:17 PM

Can't find the comment here on this thread - but I might have missed it --

Time for a reminder that "Darkie Days" is not a reference to people but to "Dark Days".

Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Goose Gander
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 11:04 AM

"We used to enslave people, put children up chimnees and burn women as witches and now we don't."

Pouring it on a bit thick, Les. But if you're really concerned about slavery, child labor, and the burning alive of women, these things are going on today - not in Padstow, though.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 08:51 AM

"I had the info about the origins of Bacup from them."

But what does that mean? Apocryphal stories are passed down through generations, yes, but is there any documented evidence to support the claim?

There are wonderful stories to explain the existence of many of our folk customs. Many have been grafted on by way of explanation - even to the participants themselves. That doesn't make them true.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 08:16 AM

"I still can't see any and there is photographic and written evidence in the archives in Padstow Museum, that the Merrymakers have always blacked their faces and this dates back hundreds of years."

How old is photography?

I suppose we getting no further really.

The use of blacking up seems to lie somewhere between a long time ago and Minstrelsy. The point really is, this 2007 and lots of people feel uneasy or are offended and explanations of historical significance here or in books about Padstow wont make any difference.

"Those who don't know any better, should.
Those who do know better and still continue this sort of behaviour are guilty of bigotry."
As Jim said.

What on Earth do these people think they are protecting and at what price?

We used to enslave people, put children up chimnees and burn women as witches and now we don't. although I see they are still burning catholic effegies in Lewes.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 07:55 AM

"the Antrobus Soulcakers - seriously old and wiered" - Great word! Now would that mean simultaneously weird and wired (see: neologisms)?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Surreysinger
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 07:37 AM

Guest Pat - an interesting photo, but it looks to me as if it's one that has been manufactured/doctored - the guy with the black Afro wig seems to have been imposed on the photo - he partially obscures the face of the chap in front of him..... so who's to say when the two (or more) parts of the photo were actually taken.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Cats
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 06:10 AM

Good morning. Ruth, I had the info about the origins of Bacup from them. I have been trying to work out what connection you have made between Morris dancers blacking up and Mummers day. I still can't see any and there is photographic and written evidence in the archives in Padstow Museum, that the Merrymakers have always blacked their faces and this dates back hundreds of years. Perhaps you did not realise that this is a totally different tradition and has nothing to do with morris or mumming as we know it today. Has the change of name to Mummers day confused people who have never been and now link it with Mumming and Morris? Apologies to Guest pat - I didn't see that guy and I don't know when the photo was taken. If that has caused offence I am sorry, but take it from me, the curly wigs have usually been multi coloured. If you had been, you would know. As for pantomime dames.. you are now into a whole new realm. When I worked in Professional theatre none of the pantomimes I worked on have black faced dames, just exaggerated make up. I suppose it is up to the artistic director. Again, I can't see what that has to do with Mummers day ... thread drift, perhaps?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 05:51 AM

I'm certainly not slating the good people of Wigan - it's just that all the panto dames I've seen (and I've seen quite a few this year, for my sins) seem to have the same accent. Even Ian McKellan - put him in a frock, he's from Wigan.

[/OT] so, do the dames black up in Cornwall?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 05:43 AM

Wigan is fine place full of indep,endently minded people whom I would avoid crossing, so to speak.

I remember a Mummer's Play at Whitby Festval with "Sir" Goefrey Boycot as the Hero. It seems that many people who dig around in Mumming get bored after a while and go off on one of their own. I have to say they can never match the drama of the Antrobus Soulcakers - seriously old and wiered. Unless someone knows something else?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 05:27 AM

Of course, Og Magog molly already paint their faces all sorts of colours, and wear similarly outlandish clothes. I think it takes Les's concept rather to the extreme, and responses to them are quite mixed as they are seen to deviate pretty substantially from ANY tradition (they remind me of a Monty Python sketch), but lots of people seem to enjoy their fresh, iconoclastic approach and they are certainly evidence that the whole blacking up issue is something that is being taken on board, at least by the younger generation.

Les, as a woman I am not offended by pantomime dames. I don't understand why they all seem to come from Wigan, though - maybe if I lived in Wigan I'd be offended.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 04:31 AM

Please explain, I am most confused.

I have dressed as a women on a number of occaisons, in a wig, in a pub popular with gay friends in Stockport. I was in a Mummers Play. Was it offensive to women? I don't think so. Is pantomime? Probably not. I am open to discussion and advice. I am with the living tradition and am happy for the Mummers Play to move as it clearly has done over hudreds of years.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 10:56 PM

Les in Chorlton suggests that instead of "blacking up" that people should "rainbow up".
If Les wishes to advertise thae fact that he is "a friend of Dorothy" i.e. a homosexual, that is entirely his choice.
Personally, I find his suggestion totally objectionable!
Colyn.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: GUEST,pat
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 07:30 PM

The so called afro wigs that are shown in photos, which tend to be from the 1970's, tended to be bright pink or blue, and have not been worn for years anyway...


Really cats?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Jim Lad
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 06:12 PM

A Folk story. What a fitting way to tie the end of a very loose thread which would have been pulled from many a forum or loom.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 06:12 PM

"One of the most well documented cases of blacking up in Cornwall actually comes from the Britannia Coconut Dancers of Bacup. Their dances were, reputably, brought up from Cornwall by the Cornish miners who went all over the world in the 17 and early 18th centuries."

where is the evidence for this, Cat? I understand that even the Bacup dancers don't know where their dance comes from, or why it looks like it does.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Jim Lad
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 05:53 PM

I am reminded of a brief moment in time when I was a young man in Australia. I found myself in Jindabyne, in the Snowy Mountains and stopped into a pub & ordered myself a Schooner of New. As I drew my first mouthful I heard some loud laughter coming from the far corner. As I turned to look at them, the barman said "Oh, they're building houses over there". He was referring to their conversation of course. There was no actual work being done. Just a bunch of guys who worked together and who, after a couple of drinks, could build as good a home as any. Well, at least in conversation.
I was immediately reminded of the many references to the 23rd of June in so many of the weaving songs. No weaving ever really took place in these songs. The 23rd of June was the weavers' holiday.(coincides with Summer Solstice or something) The weaving mills were horrible, noisy, dangerous, depressing places which in no way could ever lend itself to a healthy sing-song.
I realized then that we haven't really changed so much from one generation to another. In my mind, the hustle & bustle around me is entirely irrelevant. I take up very little space and am absolutely content with the simplest of pleasures. I often wonder how many of us feel the same way and are so easily distracted from life's complications by just the singing of a sweet song or the sharing of a simple story at the end of the day.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Cats
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 05:43 PM

Ruth - you jeep saying I have no eveidence and am just reiterating folklore. I have given you references to go to. I am talking about guising, not black faced morris. They are totally different things. But, I would still suggest you go to the excellent references I have suggested - twice.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: bubblyrat
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 04:41 PM

I agree with you,Mike. Plenty of things offend me ,too.I find many of the attitudes inherent in Islam to be disturbing,frightening,totally at variance with my own cultural identity,history, and traditions, and ,in some cases,actually offensive.However, since there is A) nothing I can do about it ,and B) I have no wish foment racial conflict , I tend to let them "get on with their lives ". I do this in the fervent hope that they will accord me the same degree of tolerance and respect.By this ,I mean that, should I wish, (which I don"t !!) to black-up my face and cavort about with Morris or any other dancers,then I would do so, and I would RESPECTFULLY point out the historical precedents for my actions .If ,despite this, I was ENTREATED to stop, then I probably would. If ,however ,I was ORDERED to stop, THEN I BLOODY WELL WOULD NOT !!!!!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Goose Gander
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 04:01 PM

"it is not always what is intended but how it makes people feel"

Les, I appreciate your earlier comment, but this sort of hypersensitivity is never-ending. I suppose ANY cross could possibly remind someone, somewhere of the KKK. And I suppose the crescent could possibly remind someone, somewhere of Muslim involvement in the slave trade. How far do you want to go with this?

There is no right not to be offended.

Plenty of things offend me - so what?

The residents of Padstow shouldn't have to explain themselves to busybodies who neither understand nor attempt to understand this expression of their local culture.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 03:45 PM

Les, a lot of Cats's points simply reiterate folklore and have no historical evidence.

I'm quoting from the article, written by Derek Schofield (EDS summer 2005):

"Forty years ago, the only English traditional, or revival, dance group who blacked up were the Britania Coco-nut Dancers from Bacup."

"There are references to people blacking up as a form of disguise in popular custom, although in Heaney and Forrest's book 'Annals of Early Morris', there is only one reference to black-faced morris dancers in the period they studied (up to 1750), and that is from the mid-sixteenth century."

The article goes on to discuss how black-faced minstrelsy took hold in America from the early 19th century, and eventually made its way to Britain and enjoyed huge popularity here by the turn of the 20th century: "no village concert was complete without a few minstrel songs."

The piece goes on to discuss the incorporation of blacking up into "traditional" events: "There would seem to be little doubt that the black faces of the traditional morris dance groups of the Welsh Border counties were at least influenced by minstrelsy. The occasional use of banjoes, bones and tambourines in these morris dances cannot be mere coincidence."

I apologise for the brief and piecemeal nature of these quotes, and for the lack of context (especially to Derek) - sadly the whole article is not available on-line. But I can tell you that it makes a pretty convincing case for the influence of minstrelsy on blacking up.

So then the question is, if blacking up and minstrelsy were once intrinsically linked, does it matter today?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 03:22 PM

Yes, excellent point Cats. Still a little unsure. But, It's that old Ku KuxKlan thing with crosses - it is not always what is intended but how it makes people feel

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: bubblyrat
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 03:21 PM

Just call it "DA QUAY DAY" -----It"s snappy, contemporary, & can"t possibly cause offence.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Cats
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 02:40 PM

When I said that there were lanes and roads called Darkie Lane or Darkie Ope it was meant as an example that the word Darkie in the West country has been used for centuries, whether or not you agree with the modern connotations. I was not meaning it to be taken in any other way. I think that the fact that most of the Merrymakers now have black faces with a white cross, i.e. our national flag [For Catters in other countries, Cornwall has its own recognised flag which is black with a white cross] shows they have gone out of their way not to offend but still keeping the guising trdaition and our own, internationally recognised, identity. Much more relevant to them than wearing rainbow colours.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 02:12 PM

Thanks Cats, you bring much education to this thread.

I would simply make the point again and again and again; Some people are uneasy and some people are offended when white people black up.


I would go with Jim Lad:

"Those who don't know any better, should.
Those who do know better and still continue this sort of behaviour are guilty of bigotry."

If the "Darkies" have become "Mummers" why can't the rainbow up?

I think it is academically, in the true sense of the word, unsound to seek knowledge from the alledged history of most Morris.

I am glad that the ealier abuse has left this thread. It was begining to feel if some of those people were just simply abusive.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Cats
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 02:07 PM

PS Jim Lad, I meant that there were no slave ships in Padstow as one of the things said about Mummers Day was that it came from when a slave ship landed in Padstow and the local people saw the slaves dancing on the quay and copied them. Now, no slave ship ever landed in Padstow, No slave ship would ever tie up in the harbour right in the middle of town, as that is where it is, and whoever heard of a slave ship letting the slaves up onto the quay to dance and relax? I am aware of the slave trade in the UK, I used to teach about it, but didn't mean that. Perhaps you didn't realise the Mummers Day / slave connection.. or rather non connection.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Jim Lad
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 02:07 PM

"Darkie" is offensive. You know that and you continue to lend it your support.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Cats
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 01:59 PM

One of the most well documented cases of blacking up in Cornwall actually comes from the Britannia Coconut Dancers of Bacup. Their dances were, reputably, brought up from Cornwall by the Cornish miners who went all over the world in the 17 and early 18th centuries. That is why they black up and wear black trousers and tops and black their hands as well. Another form of guising, would have been to wear masks, but not in this part of the country. Some of the most amazing guise masks I have seen were in the mountains in Bulgaria. The tradition of guising is well documented in Cornwall and other towns, not only Padstow, have guising traditions still which take other forms. E.g. In the twin villages of Kingsand and Cawsand at New Year, just about every single person in the area dresses up and goes out into the streets. If you ask the older people why they do it you might get the answer, 'because my family have been doing this for centuries' and if you ask the teenagers they will tell you it is because 'it has always been done'.   Virtually the same thing but in their own words. If you google mummers in Cornwall you will come up with the words, in dialect, to the 1760 Cornish Mummers Play which has a character called Jambo, who is black faced. He calls for money, ie begging. The original of this is in the Public Records Office in Truro. As I suggested, you might like to look up the excellent references given by Mike on the Wikipedia site which will give you historic authenticity, although as you are still asking for it, I presume you have already looked at them? It also seems that people are confused as to what happens on Mummers day. There is no dancing nor is there a play. A small group of people, about 25 or so, black up and walk through the town playing and singing. The majority of songs they sing are regarded by folkies as 'Cornish' [ and that's a whole new topic]. They have with them collecting tins in which they collect money for local charities or to be given to local families in need, i.e. they walk the streets and go into the pubs, blacked up and guising. In other parts of Cornwall guising would mean dancing through the streets and there are collesctions of Guise dance tunes available from Merv Davey, and Cam Kernewek. Merv is the Piper who leads the Cornish Gorsedd and was honoured as a Bard for sevices to Cornish Music, as was Mike O'Connor. Both of these are eminemt folklorists who have a great in depth knowledge of the music and traditions of Cornwall.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Surreysinger
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 01:59 PM

Thanks for coming back on that Cats - I was rather hoping you would, as I'm well aware that you're from that neck of the woods!! Very informative and useful.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Jim Lad
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 01:49 PM

Oh,I think that several of us have addressed Michael Morris's comments and been ignored. The prevalent attitude seems to be.
a) We're not offending anyone.
b) Those who are offended, have no right to be.
Kind of deteriorates into name calling after that.
Those who don't know any better, should.
Those who do know better and still continue this sort of behaviour are guilty of bigotry.
As for great Britain not taking part in the slave trade. Your joking, right? Britannia really did rule the waves and it is a very sad truth that we were the Slave Traders.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 01:23 PM

Cats has made when of the clearest and most useful contributions to this thread.

I would simply make the point again; Some people are uneasy and some people are offended when white people black up.

People may have blacked up for a long time for reasons we only have some undertsanding of. In this country, now, we spend less time thinking about how cultures can offend each other than I think we need to. I suggest no offence would be caused by rainbowing up.

Mike Morris also makes good points and yes it is a two way thing. Men of many faiths and cultures treat women badly and I presume we spaek out when we think it matters and we might have some effect. None of us think that rainbowing rather than blacking will change anything much but we choose to make this point amongst many others.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 11:34 AM

No one has yet replied to Michael Morris - funny that.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 11:07 AM

"Guising comes from the term to disguise, and as in Cornwall the easist and most readily available thing to cover faces with was dust from the mine workings, black it is. As this was a form of begging from your neighbours and the people you worked for, people would go in disguise so they would not be recognised."

I know that this is one of the received wisdoms about blacking up, but how true is it? As I said earlier, the piece in EDS said that there were only a few documented cases of blacking up associated with morris before the advent of minstrelsy in Britain in the mid 19th century.

Can anyone clever illuminate, please? (And by clever, I mean I'd be grateful if you have attributable sources for your information.)