BS: John Walker. What to do?

Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 12 Dec 01 - 04:24 PM

Lepus, I'm not sure I get your point.

If he's tried as a terrorist (which virtually no one has said) he would most likely get a prison sentence ala the folks who had first crack at the WTC.

If he's tried as a traitor (an American citizen taking the training and following the orders of the Taliban to shoot at Americans i.e. "a SOLDIER") he is up for the death penalty.

By your own words you condemm him...

Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: Bennet Zurofsky
Date: 12 Dec 01 - 04:12 PM

Am I the only one to be struck by the fact that John Walker was also the name of the U.S. sponsored terrorist sent to Nicaragua in the nineteenth century to stir up trouble for the benefit of interests back home?

Is the Taleb John Walker related to the premature contra John Walker?

Why don't we just agree that the government should follow the Golden Rule and do unto John Walker as it would wish to have the Taliban deal with an Afghani that they captured who had assisted the U.S. Marines in their invasion of Afghanistan? What would our government declare to be fair treatment of such a "traitor to Afghanistan?" I doubt they would call for summary execution. Probably, they would ask that he (or she) be treated as a comnbatant and a prisoner of war.

Our standards of judgment in matters of this sort should eschew jingoism and strive towards objectivity. The Golden Rule, honestly applied, takes us a long way to an appropriate answer.

By the way, when the Taliban captured by the Northern Alliance were shoved into shipping containers so that many of them suffocated to death, was that a war crime? When the Taliban prisoners later rebelled against their captors, was that not perhaps a legitimate response to a well-founded belief that their captors were likely to kill them in the near future?

There is much we don't know about the uprising at the fort where John Walker was being held. To begin, if all of the Taliban were participants in the uprising, how come many were found dead with their hands tied behind their back when our "allies" re-captured the fort following the American bombing.

Much is being hidden by the Bush administration's secrecy policies, and not all of it is being hidden as a legitimate part of the response to bin Laden. Much is being hidden in an attempt to protect the Bush Administration and its Afghanistan allies from legitimate and informed criticism.

Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 12 Dec 01 - 03:27 PM

Jed, what terrorist gun and what terrorist training? From everything I've read, he was a Taleban soldier. Before the U.S. invaded, the only fighting he would have done was against indiginous rebel groups. So where do you get this 'Taleban = al Qaeda'-type bullshit? Fox News? USA Today? Just because "patriotic" pro-U.S. government propagandists repeat it 24 hours a day doesn't make it so. The interests of the Taleban never reached outside southern Central Asia, and I'll give you $5.00 if you can name ONE Afghan terrorist. Maybe it helps you sleep at night, thinking that all those Afghan civilians are probably "terrorists," and so it's not wrong for the U.S. government to vaporize them. They probably even owned a turban or two... :P

I was listening to some CNN reporter the other day, describing his tour of what was "obviously a terrorist training camp." They had stockpiles of weapons, shooting ranges, excercise equipment, and, most damning of all, books written in ARABIC SCRIPT. That's right, the script of terrorism!

Oh, I mean, could have been a place to train SOLDIERS, I guess, but how do you explain the literature? Huh? HUH?! Oh, yeah, Pashto is written in a modified Arabic script, isn't it? Well... Still, they must be terrorists!

Seriously, I'm so fucking sick of the "news" lately. Do you know how many years I wished that CNN would have just ONE interesting story on Central Asia? Many. But if I turn it on right now, I'd either see a O.J./Elian/Lewinski-style John Walker story, or some cocksmoker patting himself on the back because he can now find Turkmenistan, unlabelled, on the map. JESUS.

So, I'm watching less CNN, hehe. The BBC site doesn't bother me at all. I LOVE EurasiaNet. (Check out Ahmed Rashid's profile of Hamid Karzai, or, to make this music-related, their great essay in image and sound' on the music of Kyrgyzstan.) But network/cable news must DIE. :)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: JedMarum
Date: 12 Dec 01 - 02:27 PM

I don't think John will get big limelight for his day in court - whatever court he ends up in - nor will he get much sympathy. It's true that if he is tried in US Civil courts, every attempt to Johnny Walker this case into a trial of US culture will be made, but because of the import of the subject; the case will be much better controlled then the OJ free-for-all, and appropriate gag orders will be placed (around any issue that can be contrued as a security risk). If it goes to US civil courts, it'll take years, his lawyers will appeal the conviction as long as possible and 12 yers from now he'll be exceuted with a handful of protesters outside the jailhouse and a few reporters trying diligently to muster a sense of rage among the viewing public (which won't be sympathetic or interested).

If he is tried by a military tribunal, and if he cotinues to cooperate, he may get life rather then death. In which case he will be quietly forgotten. His father will write a book condemning the US, Bush and the bad guys of al Qaeda who brain washed him ... but the book will flop.

If he is turned over to Afghan because he is not a US citizen he will be quickly and unceramoniously executed.

Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: JedMarum
Date: 12 Dec 01 - 02:18 PM

.. and to say that the US was not at war with al Qaeda or Taliban when he joined them? That he somehow accidentally found himself taking up arms against his own country when the US responded??? Come on. al Qaeda was certainly certainly at war with America from HIS perspective, before 911. Since long before the attacks against the US on 911, John was studying ways to attack America and its civiliam population. He knowingly took part in a jihad against his own culture. The arguement that the rules changed afterwards when America responded - simply doesn't hold water.

Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Dec 01 - 02:04 PM

Yep....Once again, will we ever know the truth? And how would we know it if we actually got it? Between the spin of the government and then the spin of the press, we're so accustomed to the dizziness that straight truth is barely recognizable........and in the end, we'll all believe what we want to believe, a mix of which becomes our reality. Was it Sinsull who said we'd be wishing for Elian back? Maybe Killfrog could modify The Elian Deportation Game to fit Walker?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 12 Dec 01 - 02:03 PM

I do hope (though I fear I might be wrong) that all the talk about imminent other attacks is of the same quality as talk among German soldiers in the last months of WWII about Hitler's Wunderwaffe (miraculous/wonder weapon) was:
wishful thinking coming from propaganda meant to boost the low morale of fighters for a lost and bad cause

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: JedMarum
Date: 12 Dec 01 - 01:56 PM

I agree the citizenship issue will be decided one way ro another. It is reasonable to claim that he is NOT a citizen since he took up arms against his country - and this arguement may win IF it was pushed. But the US may decide it is not in its best interest to push that arguement.

Misguided kid??? Please, this ludicrous arguement won't hold water. And as far a real justice is concerned; John has already accepted death as a resonable (and even highly likely) consequence of his actions. When he undertook terrorist training, when he picked a terrorist gun, when he fought along side those with whom he so dearly sympathized - these may be considered honorable things ... but when he made those choices, he knew he was likely to die for his beliefs and he was willing to do so. So a death penalty by US civil courts, Military courts or Afghan military is a reasonable expectation for him - and one he should be comfortable with, assuming he really is a man of conviction.

Family support? Absolutley. If I was his father I'd be as supportive as I could be. I'd make my peace with him and support him through whatever fate he is handed. I would give him every support I could right up to the moment he was executed - if that was the verdict ... and I would agree that execution was a valid verdict.

Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: heric
Date: 12 Dec 01 - 01:47 PM

Yes, I figured that was just inspirational garbage the low-level Taliban fighters all hear. Which doesn't, however, negate Rick's theory.

Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: annamill
Date: 12 Dec 01 - 01:08 PM

Rick, I was just reading on the CNN site that the info he was giving were only rumors he had heard, and the American Government is taking the knowledge with the grain. (of salt)

L.A.

Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 12 Dec 01 - 11:46 AM

I noticed today that the "conversion" I mentioned earlier may already be taking place. This from CNN: Apparently he's "warned" America to be prepared for a biological warfare attack that "will" happen before Sunday. So either he's seeing the "error of his ways",(can Pat Robertson be far behind?) or they beat it out of him with a stick. Either way, for a simple Taliban grunt, he seems to be very well informed about their military strategy. I'm seeing serious "spin" goin' on here folks.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 12 Dec 01 - 10:27 AM

Should Mr. Walker be treated as the other Taleban are?
Lord Haw-Haw was treated differently from (other) German radio announcers after the war. Each country has always made a difference between combatants fighting for their own country or fighting with the enemy against their own country.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: Spud Murphy
Date: 12 Dec 01 - 02:17 AM

When I worked in Afghanistan in 1947-48 the partitioning of India was going on and resulted in the War in Kashmir(Which isn't over yet) There was an employee of MKA at that time working at Girishk (100 miles west of Kandahar) who jumped his contract and joined the Pakistan Army as a Colonel. At that time I was working on a survey crew quartered in the town of Torkham, in the Khyber Pass.

This man was an American citizen who had joined the Canadian army in 1939 and was decorated for valour at Dieppe while with a Canadian Commando Bn. After Dieppe he was mustered out of the Canadian Army and enlisted in the U.S. Army Airborne, (101st Bn., I suppose, because he was decorated again at Bastogne)

Eventually, this man became persona non grata to both the Indians and the Pakistanis and several attempts were made on his life. His troubles in that regard stemmed from the fact that at that time the issues of partition were not fully resolved, as I guess they still aren't, butIndia and Pakistan still shared the same Grandfather back in Jolly Olde England and the touchy diplomatic situation that was created by partition and the Kashmir situation wasn't being helped by having an American soldier of fortune at large in the war zone.

I met him in Karachi where we were both staying at the Bristol Hotel; I, my contract completed, waiting out my steamship transportation back to America, and he awaiting the disposition of the matter of his citizenship. The ruling as I understood it at the time was direct and simple: Bear arms for another country and your citizenship in the U.S. is forfeit. Perod. He had reached the point where nobody, including Canada and Great Britain, wanted him and the U.S. was refusing to allow him entry. But, what about his service time in the Canadian Army? Or subsequently, in the U.S. Army?

Unfortunately, my ship hove in to port about then and I left Pakistan before the thing was resolved, so I can't report to you what the outcome was, although a fellow worker of MKA thatI ran into later thought the U.S. took him back out of compassion for the Brits and to avoid international embarrassment. When I left on the steamship he gave me a letter to be mailed from New Orleans when I got there, addressed to his family in Ohio.

I don't think there really are any rules. I think these things are all negotiable, Depending on the politics involved, who your friends are, and in those days, the colour of your skin.

Spud

Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: heric
Date: 12 Dec 01 - 12:46 AM

When I skimmed the first few posts, I found it hard to get interested in the whole subject. But then it never crossed my mind that anyone would be thinking about killing him! Never crossed my mind. It just seemed likely that he would have his citizenship revoked. That's a very serious penalty if you have no other citizenship. In my mind I was wondering if they would do something so serious to him. But killing him??? I can't imagine.

Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 12 Dec 01 - 12:12 AM

You're absolutely right, Amos. I've lost sight of the true path. I'm taking an overdose of Ari Fleischer and going straight to bed. :)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: Amos
Date: 12 Dec 01 - 12:06 AM

Geeze Rex, you're getting awful picky about clarity of communication here. Isn't the important thing that we kill them?? Let's stay focused here!!!

A.

Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 11 Dec 01 - 11:57 PM

Well, I'm with the 'he's not a traitor, he's a combatant' group, I guess. I think some people need to think beyond the "Hey, he sided with those violent, swarthy fellows who are fond of exotic headwear! Terrorist! Traitor!" type headlines. The Taleban have plenty of faults, but they aren't terrorists. The Taleban didn't crash any planes. Mullah Muhammad Omar didn't mastermind anything other than his own downfall. (Oops! He's not really all that bright, you see...) Hillbillies, folks. Not terrorists.

So, this Walker guy went to Afghanistan to fight for the Taleban government, and that's all he did when the U.S. invaded his adopted homeland. How's that make him a traitor? He'd be a traitor if he'd have switched sides and fought for the U.S., but then he'd be a HERO, I s'pose. :P

On a related subject... "The American Taleban." Grr. If I hear a CNN anchor refer to Mr.Walker as "The American Taleban" ONE MORE TIME, I will drive down to CNN headquarters in Klanistan, hunt down Bill Hemmer, bitch-slap him until that stupid fucking toupee falls off, and then CALMLY explain to him that 'Taleban' is PLURAL. If you feel the need to give the guy a cutesy label, call him "The American Taleb," you IGNORANT MULE-BLOWING BASTARD. Aaaaarrrgh.

Same with "Talebans." STOP IT. PLEASE STOP IT.

:)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Dec 01 - 11:20 PM

Treat him exactly the way that the other Taliban fighters are treated....but no killing. That's the difference. Examine alternatives. Think of how America's kids will read this chapter of history in about 20 years and think of how we would like for these kids to think about our courage to defeat the past and dare to change history, rather than repeat it. Either life counts or it doesn't. There ain't a lot of middle ground on this one...

Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Dec 01 - 10:28 PM

Ali, I was trying to make the point as you did, but much better I might add, that doing things as Walker did is a conscious decision and as far as I can tell at this point, hge is more Taliban than "American" and should be treated in the same way. The idea that becasue he's an american, it's now treason......it doesn't wash.

As to the Taliban and the conduct of the "war"....Bobert, you old hick, I could not agree more. We had a great chance to go for peace and also to take down the Taliban by proceeding with deliberation, building true coalitions, squeezing the financial and political elements like a python, and generally making ourselves into benevolent knights on white horses. Then when the need for fighting came, which it probably still would have, we would have had the world really behind us. Time was on our side, but Americans have classically not been patient people. Many felt we waited too long as it was.

There are still too many unanswered questions of fact about the Walker situation. If the scenario Loopy Sanchez portrays is true, the real question is still what are we going to do with the rest, not just Walker. Does anyone really know what his status is? Still too many unanswered questions.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Dec 01 - 10:10 PM

It's not as much a question of what is become of John Walker but of all the Taliban who are taken prisoner. I belive we missed a wonderful opportunity to make history, rather than repeat it, after 9-11. Rather than declare war less than 48 hours after the attacks, we could have called for an international summit on peace and anti-terrorism. With the world's sentiments for the United Sates at it's highest level in history we could have shamed leaders who might otherwise support violence to get their particular greivences on the table to have to participate in a world dialog. Well, we missed that opportunity. Our next opportunity is right around the corner. How we deal with prisoners will say a lot about what we are about in terms of our beliefs of the sanctity of life and our collective hopes for the future. Killing these folks after some kind of tribunal is as barbaric as the events of 9-11 and will do no more than justify those events...

Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: Gary T
Date: 11 Dec 01 - 07:33 PM

Is he a terrorist? Not that we know of. He's a combatant.

Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: AliUK
Date: 11 Dec 01 - 06:38 PM

Well here goes another stone. OK so the guy ( I refuse to cal him a kid as he is above the age of consent and an adult) converts to Islam and goes of to Afghanistan or wherever he went off to first and then Lo and behold he's in the middle of a war fighting against his former countrymen and their allies. The difference between smoking a little pot and taking up arms against others is a little wide to come into the same sphere as this ( even if it did constitute a long prison term at the time). Consciously joining an armed force and lifting up your weapons against YOUR country is treason. I was on the perifery of similar thoughts many years ago ( in the UK and the terrorists at the time were the iRA) though I sympathised with their cause, I did NOT sympathise with their means and always felt that a peaceful, political solution was the only way forward. The question with this man is the fact that he willingly went to war to defend HIS (adopted) country and HIS faith. I haven't seen Muhammed Ali taking up arms, is he not also a moslem? The example drawn with Jim Jones os another thing altogether, this was a cult ( along with those other idiots that topped themselves across the wold, including Waco which is a whole other story). This is an organised religion. What right has John Walker got as an American citizen? None. Because he renounced it just as I have renounced my British citizenship. He chose to become what he is just as I have. He is an Afghan and should be treated as such. But ishe a terrorist? I think that this is the question we are all missing.

Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: GUEST,Jenny the T
Date: 11 Dec 01 - 04:28 PM

This young man has landed himself in Big Trouble, for sure, but I'm not inclined to line up with the "shoot him now, talk about it later" crowd just yet.

Joining in with a foreign fight is a tradition of long standing in the U.S.--Yanks fought against the Fascists in Spain, flew with the RAF early in WWII, and flew with the Chinese against Japan. John Paul Jones himself helped establish the Czarist navy. We've provided idealists and mercenaries galore to causes good and bad for two centuries.

Young Mr. Walker started out the same as all the others--he joined the Taliban well before September 11. Keep in mind that we were not at war with the Taliban at the time, nor were the Taliban responsible for knocking down any American buildings--the Taliban's fight was with the Northern forces. In any case, at the time he joined up, our own government was on good terms with the Taliban--at least we were willing to give them a pile of drug-war money.

So, as of September 10, no problem and no treason, as long as he took no oaths that would negate his citizenship. And even at that, the US gov't has found it possible to forgive such oaths when it suited them (speaking of our boys in the RAF again).

His position turned terrible indeed after September 11, though--or more aptly, somewhat later, when the US decided to begin pummeling the Taliban. Seems to me he was well screwed whatever he did at that point--stay and fight, or try to get out of there--either way was most likeliest to buy him a bullet in the head.

If he wanted to be a Loyal American, he should've taken the bullet trying to get out of there, but I can't really blame him for not going that route. After all, when you've been part of a fighting unit, you build up an intense loyalty to your buddies. The result: he made himself an enemy of his home country.

Any of the aforementioned participants in foreign wars could have ended up just the same if the US had fallen in on the opposite side. That they are regarded as heroes now is due mainly to luck that their ideals and US politics agreed in the end.

So what do we do with him? What did we do with the 'brainwashees' from the Korean war? With 'collaborators' like William Garvey after Vietnam? With German- and Japanese-americans who ended up in the wrong uniform?

We mostly didn't shoot 'em. And this kid doesn't need to be shot now. That's just asinine.

JtT

Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: annamill
Date: 11 Dec 01 - 04:08 PM

LS, You don't think he was kept separate from his comrades? Just asking.

Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: LoopySanchez
Date: 11 Dec 01 - 03:58 PM

Johnny Taliban was interrogated by Mike Spann a few short hours before the prisoners rioted and took up arms against Spann and the other Americans guarding them. He knew that weapons had been smuggled in, and was aware of what was about to happen, yet didn't tell the Americans anything. Mike Spann died as a result of his actions. That is MURDER, pure and simple. Anyone who tries to use psychology to figure out his reasons for doing what he did is too concerned with making sure their heart bleeds a bright enough shade of red everyone else to see, and not concerned enough with justice. Somebody tell me where I'm wrong. Try to use logic and not "feelings" in the explanation. The only "feelings" I have are ones of sympathy for Spann's widow.

Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: annamill
Date: 11 Dec 01 - 02:20 PM

I have a question about this whole thing. What exactly was the crime? Being an American? I only ask because we let all the other Taliban fighters GO HOME!!! Unless, of course, they were foreigners. I guess John falls into that catagory, but then why isn't he being treated like all the other foreign fighters. Why is he being brought home for trial? We didn't bring any of the others "home".

He made the decision, didn't he? Maybe it just happened too fast. I don't think any of the lowly Taliban knew what was planned and I don't think John knew either. All of a sudden, he's fighting his homeland. Wha happened?? He was there. What was he going to say? Hey! I can't be in this fight, I'M AN AMERICAN.. oops, dead!

I don't know. Just another decision I am unsure about.

Love, Annamill

Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 11 Dec 01 - 02:13 PM

First, we should figure out the facts, so we're not all just talking out of our hats. Then, we should figure out the legalities, which will tell us whether he should be charged with treason or some other offense.

Assuming we conclude that he is not insane, and that he willingly took up arms against the US, we should prosecute him to the fullest extent of the law. He's young, but old enough to know better. I don't see any justification in letting him off just because we've got a soft spot for American kids.

Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: DougR
Date: 11 Dec 01 - 01:32 PM

Right, Rick, and they didn't choose a side that opposed your own country.

I do not know whether or not he renounced his citizenship, or if he lost his citizenship. Haven't the foggiest at this point.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Dec 01 - 10:14 AM

Celtic Soul, don't feel badly, I thought the same thing.

Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 11 Dec 01 - 12:05 AM

Yah, Janie. My point exactly. I think public (and media) outcry will overide whatever the Govt. or Military want to do. And please forgive me for being so cynical (I'm always 'positive and up-beat' in my music posts) but I think whatever his next "physical image" is, will go a long way towards determining his fate. My guess is he'll appear soft-spoken, penitent, and 'cute'. That'll cut him a lot of slack on this continent.

Personally, I knew lots of kids years ago who adopted Eastern religions, became fanatically 'anti-materialist', and went off to foreign climes to 'find themselves'. The difference is that they didn't find themselves smack dab in the middle of a war.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: Amos
Date: 10 Dec 01 - 11:56 PM

Last I heard the other two claimants had never been American citizens; they were Taleban Arabs who spoke passable English.

A.

Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From:
Date: 10 Dec 01 - 11:16 PM

handcuff him to Jane Fonda and try them together. Give them the same sentance. mg

Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: Janie
Date: 10 Dec 01 - 11:05 PM

JW may be a poor besotted misguided soul led astray by a "cult." Problem is...one can probably make the same argument about 90% of the terrorists in the world and most of the Taliban. Misquided, mixed up or not, we each of us have to be responsible for the choices we make. In this country we are legally accountable by age 18 in most instances. I haven't followed this story very closely, but I am not aware that Mr. Walker has expressed any sense of having been misquided and in fact said that he ultimately supported the 9-11 attacks.

I actually don't have an opinion about what should happen with him (at least for now.) I was unaware there were possibly two more Americans, but I think Rick asks a very good question re: will they receive different consideration (not just from the government but also from the talking heads and in other public discussion) if they are not ethnic WASPS?

Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: Sorcha
Date: 10 Dec 01 - 11:04 PM

'Spaw, I love it. "gee, I think I'll fuck up" as opposed to
"gee, I really did fuck up".
"Charismatic personalities"--doesn't that say it all? Take a new look at JFK and others in this light.

Even in my "idiot, tokin', droppin', Rebel years", I had sense enough to turn down a proopsal from a fundamentalist Muslim Iraqi.......I knew what would be required when I was transported to Iraq. He harassed, he stalked, he lurked--I just kept calling 911. His Visa was finally revoked. The "knowing" is what education is really all about.

Choose your religion, choose your culture, but be damn sure you know what you are choosing.

Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 10 Dec 01 - 10:11 PM

Oh my gawd. I am about to show how utterly secluded I am living life right now.

I thought this had to do with someone having a drinking problem, or maybe a recipe thread.

Sheesh...I need to buy a paper once in awhile. :/

Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Dec 01 - 10:09 PM

.........but I don't have the details of what he has actually done in specific. That makes it hard to see the rights of the matter, doesn't it?

Which is exactly the point which Sorcha made also. We don't have the whole story here by any means.

sc......An outstanding post. Thank you.

And why are we all willing to say he made a tragic mistake? Because we don't have the same beliefs as Islam? The Taliban may be completely horrific, but Jim Jones wasn't a cup of tea either now was he? People follow a belief and often are carried away by charismatic personalities to do all kinds of strange things, some extreme and murderous. But if the man had the belief, he had the belief. When was the last time you mad a bad decision beforehand? sc tells of his experiences and I'm sure at the time he didn't say, "Gee, I think I'll fuck up!" 35 or 40 years ago, a lot of people at 18 had to make decisions and we all did the "right" thing at the time. Later, in retrospect, we sit around and discuss our decisions and can see they had good parts, bad parts, or both.

Why not wait a bit before we hang this young man?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: Amos
Date: 10 Dec 01 - 09:49 PM

Please bear in mind also that he left the country long before the clash between the United States and the Taleban was an issue; he did not join an enemy force after the U.S. declared it an enemy as far as I have seen. So the question is WHEN he joined the Taleban. There is also a critical issue about the legal nature of treason when a war has been declared only by executive mandate, and not by legislative act. It is absolutely true that a warlike condition existed; but in terms of law the question of what war is and when it officially occurs has to be answered. It is possible the "cult" he joined was a civilian body entirely when he got drawn into it, rather than a military body.

All these points need legal clarification, especially the question of whether he actually legally renounced his citizenship. If he did, and did so before the "state of warlike relationships against terrorism" was defined (around 15 September I think), then it is even harder to see how treason enters into the equation.

I would like to see him forgiven his foolishness if only for his parents' sake; but I don't have the details of what he has actually done in specific. That makes it hard to see the rights of the matter, doesn't it?

A

Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: GUEST,sc
Date: 10 Dec 01 - 09:37 PM

Folks,

I made my share of mistakes as a young man. I took things that did not belong to me. I struck people in anger. I used drugs. Got drunk a few times. I was arrested in 69 for MJ - good for life in prison at that time where I lived. But I was aquitted due to constitutional issues. I outgrew the rebel inside (maybe) and raised a family and paid taxes and did the WASP thing. Heck, I even considered voting Republican once.

This is not a psychopathic killer we're talking about. It's a deeply religious young man, led astray by religious zealots. (I've been there too - thank you but no, GTA).

I'm not saying this young man should go free but, damn, killing him is extreme. We aren't even certain he was shooting at us. Can't we wait 'til all the facts are in? Then give him time to meditate and mature in a place from which he can harm no one?

Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Dec 01 - 09:33 PM

Does anyone actually know if Walker gave up his US citizenship? Either through defection or through violation of passport regulation, does anyone actually know at this point?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: DougR
Date: 10 Dec 01 - 09:18 PM

Hmmm. ro 1sin: Give him a break? From all I've seen and read, he wasn't conscripted as you suggest he might have. He's a kid alright, but so are the Marines he was trying very hard to kill while fighting with the Taliban!

Give him a break. Sure.

Question: Suppose one of our own had gone to the other side during the heat of battle. Should he have been given a break?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: tremodt
Date: 10 Dec 01 - 07:42 PM

JW could have been conscripted to fight like the Polish in world war 11 that were forced to fight with the Germans they fought us but we did did not do anything to them he is a mixed up kid give him a break

do not let him off scot free but give him some time nehind bars

Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: AliUK
Date: 10 Dec 01 - 07:07 PM

Well let me cast another stone ( as I have already cast my first one. If he was left to Afghan ( Northern Alliance) justice it wouldn't make much different because the Afghans change sides more often than Giselle Bunchen changes clothes. So all he would do is swear allegience to the Northern Alliance and he would be OK. So if he has given up his US citizenship ( as Gareth surmises) then he should be on his little prayer mat right this moment promising Allah everything to be turned over to the Afghans.

Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: DougR
Date: 10 Dec 01 - 06:53 PM

I think he will be delt with by the U. S. military. I wouldn't predict how, though.

Using his age as an excuse for his treason doesn't hold water though. How old do you imagine the U. S. Marines he was fighting are? Probably the majority are under the age of 20. Many in the anti-Taliban forces may be much younger.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: Sorcha
Date: 10 Dec 01 - 06:45 PM

I don't know that we can do anything. "They" are going to be doing all the doing.

Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: Gareth
Date: 10 Dec 01 - 06:21 PM

Questions?

Did J W leave the USA on a USA passport ?

If so, does not the USA passport have an endorsement regarding giving up US citizenship upon joining an Armed Forced owing allegiance elsewhere ?

If he is not a US citizen, how can he be tried for treason. No leave him to the Afghan people to deal with.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 10 Dec 01 - 04:39 PM

Actually the more pertinent case might be John Brown, who was captured, tried, convicted, and hung within one month, (although I suspect that, had Arnold been caught, the time would be relatively the same.)

And Rick, while I agree that he'll be a topic on bitch-counter-bitch cable shows, he'll get a lot more than six months. My standing start guess is death, with a Bush commutation to life without parole. He'll also have to be kept in solitary, as any lifer in prison can get his commissary paid for the rest of his life, by sympathetic outsiders, if he can just gut TJ with a sharp spoon.

Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: GUEST,sc
Date: 10 Dec 01 - 04:23 PM

Sorry, no use in me applyin' for this position. I can't cause I don't fit the job description...

Oughta be somebody here qualified, though. So many without sin, it seems - available to cast that first stone.

-sc

Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: artbrooks
Date: 10 Dec 01 - 04:00 PM

Kim c said: "Back in the old days they called it treason and punishment was relatively swift. Ask Benedict Arnold if you don't believe me." Arnold fled to the British, was commissioned general in their army, and lived until 1801. Hope we have better luck this time.

Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 10 Dec 01 - 03:52 PM

I think the point I was trying to make is that WHATEVER is decided, he'll become the number one topic on all the late night shows,(like Elian and Monica and Chandra) and all America will debate the points we're discussing. My guess is that he'll have some kind of amazing conversion while in prison, get six months, and hopefully disappear into obscurity.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: John Walker. What to do?
From: SINSULL
Date: 10 Dec 01 - 02:46 PM

I predict that within two weeks we will all be praying for Elian Gonzales to return to the front pages.

This young man seems to see himself as a warrior and martyr for Islam. My personal hope is that he is returned to the United States for trial and that his youth is taken into consideration.

Claymore, with or without the death penalty for John Walker, New York might still suffer a "second Ground Zero". I thought we all realized that.