Folklore: Pewter Tankards

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: GUEST
Date: 17 May 14 - 03:28 PM

Did you hear about the bus load of Morris Dancers that was hijacked by terrorists?

The terrorists threatened to release one every hour until all their demands were met.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: GUEST,Bill S from Melbourne
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 08:18 PM

I had a favourite tankard which did not, sadly, follow me to the Antipodes but may still follow the morris. It was brass bound oak and you had to soak it overnight before you could use it. The ale tasted good from it. I got rid of most of my collection of tankards but they have gradually been replaced. Of morris significance is a prize at the Bampton Fair from long ago, which I picked up in a remote farm in South Australia. I used to have 4 quart tannkards, useful near closing time as it in theory halved the number of scrums at the bar. Just the satisfying clunk of them on the bar and the call off a gallon of bitter please. And yes they were part of morris kit so you could still enjoy a beer between pubs. Hey, Kitty, is Hairy's gallon tankard ever seen these days?
IMHO the best ales from the US rank with the best anywhere, the worst compete for new lows, ditto Australia where a sea of mediocrity is saved by the output of dozens of great micros

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 07:24 AM

Re the comment about drinking from glass being more suitable - The advent of 'Pilsner' beers - Ie, those brewed in the town of Pilsen, West Bohemia, also promoted the rise of Bohemian Crystal as drinking vessels. The bright clear beers were best displayed in bright clear vessels. Or was it the other way round? Too many Czech lagers have dimmed the brain! As Manitas says - with stouts, porters, weiss beers and cloudy brews it does not need to be seen.

DeG

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 06:04 AM

I don't think glasses are more suitable but they did allow you to admire the clarity of the new-style beers. It's a bit pointless with the porters and stouts in vogue up to then - indeed you might wish to hide the cloudiness of the beer.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 03:45 PM

Apropos the remarks about who did or didn't drink out of pewter at what time in history, I have just come across a relevant comment in the book "Fire & Steam: How the Railways Transformed Britain" (Christian Wolmar, Atlantic Books, ISBN-978-1-84354-630-6):
"One of the more obscure developments brought about by the railways was the change from drinking ale out of pewter tankards, which were more suitable for the capital's stouts, to glasses" (which the context in the book implies were more suitable for the beers brought by the Midland Railway, particularly Bass from Burton).

This is in one of Wolmar's endnotes. He identifies the sources (albeit secondary ones) of most of the quotations in his endnotes, but this one has no attribution at all. I therefore venture no opinion on its accuracy, but I pass it on for what it's worth.

Richard

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: EnglishFolkfan
Date: 16 Dec 09 - 10:13 AM

The closing scenes of the New BBC TV Victorian Farm Christmas series episode 1 has the wonderful John Kirkpatrick playing, singing and directing the dancing for the haymaking celebrations with lots of pewter mugs in use & for decoration:

Available to those as can access BBC iPlayer til 31st December 2009, and episode repeats on TV.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00p71fz

Will they be drinking out of pewter at the actual Christmas feast?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: doncatterall
Date: 16 Dec 09 - 09:02 AM

I lost a tankard many years ago in the Balfour at Sidmouth.
It was inscribed "Saddleworth Darts and Snooker Champion 1970 Diggle Band Club" (not me!!!)
News of its whereabouts gratefully received.

Don

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 14 Dec 09 - 05:12 PM

Lady Penelope assured us:

BTW anything that's brewed with yeast can be referred to as 'beer', cider and wine included.

Sure, and an ox can be referred to as a horse, and a nanny-goat can be referred to as a cow, but that doesn't make either one true!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Rowan
Date: 14 Dec 09 - 04:29 PM

Presumably this means that antimony forms a crystaline structure like ice does, becoming larger when solidifying, or am I misinformed?

BBCW, I once worked with a local rag press and have a dim recollection that "printer's metal" was specially formulated so that the alloy had a slight expansion as it solidified, as water does; it was this property that produced beautifully crisp print. Whether it was solely due to the antimony content I can't remember, but I'm sure you could glean info by googling "printer's metal"/"type metal" and/or antimony. I do recall that, although vast quantities of scrap offcuts were lying around during the preparation for the print run, they were meticulously collected and recycled, as the alloy was expensive and criminal charges were brought against people who tried to sell it to scrap metal merchants or those merchants who bought it.

TJ, thanks for the compliment. It occurred to me while I was reading earlier parts of the thread that some might be confused by changes of meanings, as well as by simple appearances. I had thought that the change from antique (lead-containing) pewter to britannia metal (and thus modern pewter) had occurred in the middle of the 19th century and was surprised to see the relevant Standard hadn't come into force until 1974. I had never associated cadmium with pewter and I suspect that most people's experience of it would be cad-plated metal items. These routinely have a dull grey lack of sheen, not unlike pewter's appearance when it hasn't been cared for over a long period of time; I hesitate about calling it a patina but that is probably the proper term for the surface of weathered pewter.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 14 Dec 09 - 12:49 PM

I remember my father telling me about antimony being used in type-metal (for printing presses etc.) as when the correct proportion was used the liquid did not change in volume when changing phase to the solid, hence giving the correct size of type.
Presumably this means that antimony forms a crystaline structure like ice does, becoming larger when solidifying, or am I misinformed?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 14 Dec 09 - 12:15 PM

I think the Germans had the right idea with their steins. They keep the beverage cool longer, they can be highly decorative or plain as a mud fence, as you prefer. And, with the right glaze, they are quite easy to clean. They are more breakable, but I have seen some well-mangled pewter vessels as well. Unfortunately for me, I no longer drink much beer or ale, as it tends to cling to the midsection. At my age, I don't need the additional avoirdupois.

P.S.: I humbly bow to the metallurgy lesson, above, and the voluminous reference material from which it comes. I had no idea how restrictive the recipe was or how well-controlled the production must have been.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Mr Red
Date: 14 Dec 09 - 08:09 AM

OK lead oxidises fairly easily and oxides can be etched by drink - particularly cider because it is acidic rather than the alkline beers and lagers.

However. As can be seen from the recall of the Go Gerbil, antimony is pretty toxic too. Maybe it doesn't oxidise so readily, mayhap the oxide is not as soluable but would a metalergist care to expound on the likely dangers when antimony is awash in cider?

I drink from a stainless steel mug and it is tastier IMNSHO. And I personalised it

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 13 Dec 09 - 09:27 AM

In some countries, what we would call pewter is called just tin, e.g. French étain, German Zinn. (Apologies if the e-acute doesn't display correctly for everyone.)

The actual composition anywhere in Europe is likely to be according to EN 611, which Rowan has already mentioned. (I've just looked it up on the BSI website . EN 611-1 covers pewter (i.e. presumably the alloy) and EN 611-2 pewterware, i.e. presumably things made of pewter.)

"EN" signifies a European Standard, which the national standards bodies are obliged to adopt as a national standard, thus BS EN 611-1 and -2 in the UK, but similarly in France as NF EN 611-1 and -2 (which indeed refer to "étain"), etc. But enough of this digression about European standardisation!

Richard

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Rowan
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 11:36 PM

From various sources.

While the term pewter covers a range of tin-based alloys, the term English pewter has come to represent a strictly-controlled alloy, specified by BSEN611-1 and British Standard 5140, consisting mainly of tin (ideally 92%), with the balance made up of antimony and copper. Significantly, it is free of lead and nickel. Although the exact percentages vary between manufacturers, a typical standard for present-day pewter is approximately 91% tin, 7.5% antimony and 1.5% copper.

From the 15th century onwards, the composition of English pewter was carefully protected by the Worshipful Company of Pewterers in London. The Company required that the finest quality English pewter contain at least 94% tin, with the balance made of other metals including lead. Lead was removed from the composition in 1974, by BS5140, reinforced by the European directive BSEN611 in 1994.

Until the end of the 18th century, the only method of manufacture was by casting and the soldering of components [almost all solder at the time would have had a considerable lead content]. From the last quarter of the 18th century, improvement in alloys and techniques allowed objects to be made from pewter by stamping and spinning

It was known as " fyne peauter " and used for dishes, saucers, platters, chargers, and for all " things that they make square," such as cruets, chrismatories, &c., which owing either to the rough usage they would be submitted to, or to the sharpness of their angles, called for greater toughness in the material . The recipe for this alloy as originally propounded was as much brass to the tin " as it wol receiuve of his nature," but the lack of precision in this perhaps rendered it difficult to distinguish accidental variations from deliberate adulteration, and in 1474–1475 it was resolved that 26 lb of brass must be mixed with every hundredweight of tin. The penalties for infringement of the rules were severe and frequently enforced, but in spite of them alterations and improvements crept in. The chief and perhaps the earliest of these was the addition of a certain proportion of bismuth, or as it was then called " tin glass." When this was first used is not recorded, but by 1561 it was accepted as a matter of course; in 1630 a maker " was found in fault for not sufficiently tempering his metal with tin glass "; and in 1653 it was ordered that 3 lb weight of tin glass at least must be mixed with every 100 lb of tin.

Antimony was subsequently introduced—though there is no mention of it in the records of the Pewterers' Company—sometimes alone as in tin and temper (r.6 to 150 parts) and trifle (17 parts to 83 of tin)—sometimes with other metals as in hard metal (96 parts of tin, 8 of antimony and 2 of copper), a mixture very closely resembling that still used under the name of " Britannia metal," an alloy composed approximately of 93 percent tin, 5 percent antimony, and 2 percent copper, used for making various utensils, including teapots, jugs, drinking vessels, candlesticks, and urns, and for official maces. Similar in colour to pewter, britannia metal is harder, stronger, and easier to work than other tin alloys; it can be worked from sheets, like silver, or spun on a lathe. The alloy is first mentioned in 1769, as "Vickers White Metal," but it was during the 19th century that the advantages of britannia metal were appreciated.

Lots of lead, therefore in antique pewter but none in modern pewter and no mention of cadmium anywhere. Acids in liquids would certainly leach copper out of modern pewter. Stainless steel (90Fe, 10Cr, < 0.5Mn + 0.25C or 90-2Fe, 8Cr, 0.4Mn, < 0.12C or 86.7Fe, 12.5Cr, 0.35Mn, 0.35Ni, 0.12C) may have nickel, to which some become allergic.

More on alloys.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: GUEST,TJ
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 01:34 PM

Strange; no one has mentioned a "Drinking Gourd." Of course, I'm told they make ale taste like dried pumpkin or some such...and so hard to clean.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Old Grizzly
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 01:03 PM

I loved my tankard and supped hmmmm ... rather a lot of ale out of it for over 30 years - till it was stolen from my car a few years ago :o(

A standard simple pewter tankard from about 1800 it had a touchmark of 3 'saracen' swords and bore the incription in flowing script -

I W Kemp
The Crown
Narrow St.
Limehouse

If anyone ever comes across it I would dearly love to be re-united.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 12:56 PM

Each time I've been to the Saturday night singaround, of the Durham Folk Party, at the Rowing Club, a couple have entered to listen and drink from tankards.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Gervase
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 12:02 PM

If you drink hot drinks from your tankard you'll burn your lip, unless you like your tea and coffee tepid.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: open mike
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 02:50 AM

Tankards--From: glueman - PM - Date: 16 Jun 08 - 02:47 AM -
BTW, that hasn't even begun to exhaust my bile on the topic
but it's the glorious 16th today and I'm off to kill worms.


what is the reference here? to me worms are equated with tequila...??

and what is the importance of June 16th?

thankfully, my secret santa sent a tankard...
my former pewter one was lost in a fire..
does pewter have a lower melting temp. than
other metals?

i have taken my "ram's horn" pewter tankard
to renaissance faires where it has become
fashionable to wear bowls, cups and spoons
hanging from one's waist/belt..as a fashion
accessory as well as utilitarian object.

in Swedish/Scandinavian culture the beveredge
vessel was an ale horn -- supposedly brought
to warriors in Valhalla...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 08:22 PM

Matt -

Stainless Steel is a chemical neutral metal. It does not react.

If it is stainless - it is obviously not Pewter....which contains lead and tin and perhaps chromium etc.

You can drink ANYTHING - acid/base/ from a stainless container (unless of course ... said container was made in China where the laws and regulations of alchemy do not apply.)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: GUEST,Matt - with his new tankard
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 08:11 PM

I'd like to know if my stainless steel tankard can be used for hot drinks like Tea or Coffee.
Obviously I can't drink alcohol at work and I use it most at work so it has to be either water, juice or (hopefully) tea.
Can anyone Advise?

Cheers.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 12:02 PM

hops - roman if not earlier
carp - after monastic ponds for the table 'wild' carp supplanted by imported hybrid cyprinids
turkey - dunno but edwardian on any scale
beer - definition?

Never seen the attraction of pewter aesthetically or practically. Sets yer bloomin' teeth on edge. However I'm enjoying a rather fine single malt from an Aldi hipflask as I write so each to their own.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 11:11 AM

snerk... Michael.... heh heh heh

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Michael
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 12:15 PM

"Would horn hold up under the acidity of Cider?"

Am I the only one who thought of priapism?
Mike

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: GUEST,Kampervan
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 11:29 AM

Sorry, that lasty post is me. I seem to have lost my identity!

K/van

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 11:28 AM

http://www.aidan-campbell.co.uk/Pewter_Guide.shtml

Accourding to this authority, (see blue clicky above), there is little or no lead in pewter drinking vessels. So you can use them for any drink you care to imbibe.

As for the glass bottom, I was always told it so that you could see if you were being tricked into 'taking the Kings shilling'. Fact or fable?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: GUEST,Ebor_fiddler
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 06:08 PM

I use a lead-loaded pewter tankard,(bought for the pricely sum of £5 at Whitby this year) because of its shape. I dance a lot at festivals and got fed up of my plastic glass being spilt so easily. The tankard is broader at the base and has more weight. This is also cheaper than my "posh" tankard which I use (for similar reasons) at home! Besides, it gets me points with the folk police!

Re the ale/beer controversy, ale was the original English brew until hops were introduced as flavouring in the 16th (I think) century when the term "beer" came in to distinguish the new drink from the older one. "Carp, turkeys, hops and beer came to England all in one year" if I remember the jingle correctly. It's a good story anyway!
Cheers all!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Aeola
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 05:21 PM

Never mind pewter,... try a nice crystal tankard!!!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 05:00 PM

Lots of interesting points here . My mom's family was in the clipper ship business out of Salem and she had a great collection of pewter mugs . The glass bottom ones she said were considered more useful because when one said "bottoms up" ; you could also say "Heres looking at you " and all knew not to pull a gun or knife. We had some beautiful makers here in New England my two favorites were Danforth of Meriden Connecticut and Boardmen (I think of Boston first) Both families were working in the eighteenth and Nineteenth centuries . The great London makers might not be what your talking about for folkies at pubs because you could sell a good English Pewter mug for enough money to buy a martin and gibson in the same breath .. All the best to all here ..

Yours Guy   p.s.

Early pottery (and Leather) stynes were often called "cans" at a particular measure of liquid .

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 03:43 PM

I was suggesting it as an alternative to pewter for Cider drinkers. Would horn hold up under the acidity of Cider?

Antique pewter - I would not drink from. Just as I won't put consumables in glazed pottery (cups, mugs, bowls) from China because there are no regs on lead in glazing.

I got bagfuls of natural stupid. I don't need to go augmenting it with poison.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: romany man
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 02:55 PM

aint no lead in horn, is there, vt,

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 08:21 AM

what about a horn cup?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: lady penelope
Date: 26 Dec 08 - 04:23 PM

If you drink a strong cider (and an awful lot of it) then maybe, yes.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: GUEST,cdavies
Date: 26 Dec 08 - 04:11 PM

Any advice welcome on the REAL possibility on getting lead poisoning from antique pewter tankard!!! What do you think? Yay or nay?!
Sorry if stupid question....i aint that bright...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: GUEST,Aeola
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 03:50 PM

Google it and look on page 2

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 03:28 PM

Gawd bless the Urban Dictionary!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 03:25 PM

I've just googled 'Trapper's Hat'.

Top tip: don't google 'Trapper's Hat'.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: GUEST,aeola
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 03:19 PM

At the recent Folk on the Coast fest I sampled some of the local Trapper's Hat, only 3.8% but very quaffable. Tried it in a glass & a pewter tankard tasted lovely!!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 12:20 PM

Not sure how I forgot this, since I drank it three weeks ago -

Grainstore Brewery Rutland Panther, 3.8%
According to the beer festival programme, "Black brew with drinkability of mild or light bitter, combined with roast flavours associated with stout."

According to me, that's pretty much what it was - a light, even slightly thin texture and not too much alcohol, but with the look and taste of stout. Could catch on.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: GUEST,Ewan Spawned a Monster
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 08:01 AM

Me above

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 08:01 AM

What, like THESE LITTLE BEAUTIES?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: TheSnail
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 07:48 AM

Stereotypical? Moi?

Well, at least I'm not wearing panchromatic trousers.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 07:39 AM

For those who don't know, I feel obliged to point out here that Flann O'Brien and Myles na gGopaleen are the two names that Brian O'Nolan wrote under. For more on this, see what Wiki has to say.

I was served up a pint of ale in Lytham recently, in lieu of the Bombardier which was off, that was getting on for a stout I'd say. Can't remember what it was, but it went down a treat with the steak and ale pie...

When the Bombardier cask's ran dry
and you're out with the wife in Lytham St Annes,
When you're tucking into some brick of a pie,
A PINT OF PLAIN IS YOUR ONLY MAN

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 07:39 AM

Liz,
Have read many of your postings and am well aware of your mental capabilities - will have to take your word regarding your hirsute condition.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: lady penelope
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 06:50 AM

For a while, in the last couple of years, Guinness were producing something called Guinness Red. This was somewhere between a stout and a bitter (sounds somehow not quite right to me, but never knock something till you've tried it I say...). I never got to try it, but it was specifically aimed at those who found Guinness Extra Stout too heavy. I've never seen it on sale anywhere and I've no idea if it's still in production or not. Possibly a sign that it didn't capture it's target audience...?

I quite like some of the lower alcohol Porter Ales. But it seems that the lighter ones don't get the same interest as the heavier ones and over the last decade, I've not seen a Porter under 5%BV. A bit of a shame as they can be a very satisfying and almost refreshing pint.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Zen
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 06:23 AM

I agree Phil...

When things go wrong and will not come right
Though you do the best you can
When life looks black as the hour of night
A pint of plain is yer only man

from Myles na gCopaleen

Zen

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 05:18 AM

But does anyone still brew 'plain'? In Brian O'Nolan's time it was the cheaper, lower-strength stout - session stout, you might say. (The full name of Guinness is Guinness Extra Stout.) A definite gap in the market - for the bitter drinker, at least, my experience suggests that a session on Guinness or even Murphy's is not a good idea.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Silas
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 04:24 AM

And as for me, I have'nt got a beard.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 04:20 AM

Jim Carroll... although I have to admit, at my particular age, to a VERY slight increase in facial hair, I am not a 'bearded eejit', despite owning several pewter and silver tankards in a variety of styles, size, age and condition.

LTS

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pewter Tankards
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 04:18 AM

When stags appear on the mountain high,
with flanks the colour of bran,
when a badger bold can say good-bye,
A PINT OF PLAIN IS YOUR ONLY MAN

I can't vouch for the accuracy of this, having nabbed it off the internet on account of most of my library presently being in storage, but it sounds about right.