BS: Israel Moves in.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 06:52 PM

"By the way, nobody knows how many people were killed in Jenin. The only reports that are being used to make that determination are the number of bodies that showed up at hospitals and morgues. The number of people who were buried under buildings by IDF bulldozers remains unknown." - CarolC

In saying the above CarolC you seem to display an amazing lack of understanding of the realities of life and what measures indicate the true state of things.

Jenin was a refugee camp - Correct??

The population of a refugee camp is regulated - Correct??

So the only reports that were used to make the determination of the fatalities were the number of bodies that showed up at hospitals and morgues. What about the numbers seeking aid?? What about the numbers drawing rations?? If as the "Palestinians" contended there were 3000 killed there would be a marked reduction in those being fed wouldn't you think CarolC, after all the population of the Jenin camp was 13,000 and all of a sudden due to those beastly Israelis the population is reduced from 13,000 to 10,000, and all apart from 50 odd bodies are left to rot under rubble. Can you therefore explain why the numbers who continued to receive aid did not reflect the disappearance of 3,000 people from the population of Jenin??

I take it CarolC that in your life you have not encountered sudden and violent death in any great magnitude?? I ask because of your statement regarding - "The number of people who were buried under buildings by IDF bulldozers remains unknown."

Dead bodies stink CarolC, bodies once dead CarolC also become a really serious health risk to those who are still living, so much so CarolC that when humans get killed in war, in natural disasters, etc. Every possible effort is made to recover bodies and bury them, because if that is not done and people continue to live amongst rotting human remains then people start dying from all manner of diseases.

Sorry about that CarolC but the number of people who died in Jenin is known, it was between 53 and 56. It is known exactly because refugee camps are not run like a theme park, they are very carefully regulated as far as everyday life aspects are concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 06:50 PM

Sawzaw - thanks for the Hamas textbook quotes. Don't they show so very clearly the lunacy and danger of overbearing nationalism?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 06:47 PM

And for what it's worth, Germany, especially under Merkel, has been pushing hard to make 'holocaust denial' a crime throughout the EU. It seems there are some people who just can't help being totalitarian even in their defence of democracy. It reminds me of the Brazilian dictator back in the 70s who finally came around to the idea of democracy and said "I am going to open Brazil to democracy. And anyone who is against that, I will crush, I will destroy completely"....!

Ironically German'y efforts haven't been enthusiastically accepted because it would put Turkey - who has been agitating to join the EU - in an awkward position.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 06:38 PM

No John, it wasn't 'pretty low' or anything like it. Without making too much of a mouthful of it, BBruce was objecting to a person who was glad a staunch zionist had been prevented from giving a speech. The content of the speech would have been to excuse Israel's actions in Gaza, whitewash details about use of phosphorous shells and all the other stuff that's been talked about. Not to mention ideas that Hamas is solely responsible for what the levelling of Gaza and that the not so many Palestinians really died and so on.

Whatever your politics it would in short have been a load of propaganda. Now Bruce had a problem with this guy not being allowed to present his propaganda. Bruce has a point, I believe people should be allowed argue what they want - there are already plenty here on Mudcat doing just that. If you don't agree with them, fine, say so and say why. Don't try and shut them up (not you specifically, people generally!)

Bruce argued this was done to silence any other viewpoint except the one of the objector, hence his comment ""Yes, freedom of speech is far too dangerous to allow to those one disagrees with..." Bruce is being sarcastic here, and rightly making the point that blocking someone from presenting their views is wrong.

But Bruce, and yourself and many others then fall into the same trap: freedom of speech is ok as long as you agree with the content. It emerges if someone like Irving comes up. He just happens to be the best example I can think of. Do you know of anyone else who's gone to jail for their views in the West? Who's not allowed to present their views (however outlandish)? If you do, we can quote them as an example next time, Irving is just one of the best known.

Irving (apparently - I've never read any of his books, have no plans to either, thanks for the info about amazon, but I won't be buying them) should be free to argue the holocaust didn't happen, if that's what he thinks, without fear of jail. People who don't agree with him should be free to argue why and show how he's wrong. THAT'S how we progress forward. Instead he's been silenced in just the same way Bruce is complaining about.

But I've come to realize this is a topic full of double standards. In fact, Israel has been one of the foremost supporters of another episode of 'holocaust denial' - that of Turkey and Armenia. Turks carried ut a program of genocide in Armenia - killing over 2 million Armenians. At the time, it was the largest genocide in human history. Yet today, the official Turkish line is 'it didn't happen' 'if it did, it was an accident' 'the numbers were much smaller' 'they did it to themselves' - all the usual shit. Journalists who've tried to write about this in Turkey have been jailed, and few people would argue that Turkey doesn't have a long way to go in terms of human rights.

Surely, Israel, composed of people that had suffered in like manner, and have monuments to same all over the world, would be the first to object to Turkey's whitewash of its history? Au contraire, Israel has been Turkey's staunchest ally in all of this, objecting to any inclusion of Armenians in holocaust and genocide memorial days, as if there was only one genocide in all of history. All this because Turkey is a strong political ally of Israel. The icing on the cake came recently when Israel's government threatened to no longer support Turkey in its holocaust denail if Turkey didn't ease off on its criticism of Israeli actions in Gaza.

The double standards of this makes me want to vomit. What hope is there of genocides not occurring again and again if it is allowed to become a political football????

There are many 'crucifixion deniers' out there, such as the authors of the Holy Blood and Holy Grail who are trying to claim the crucifixion of Jesus never happened. Of course, were it true (and their thesis is shaky at best) it would mean the central tenet of Christianity - that Christ died and rose as a payment for the debt of our sins, would not be true. To me, that's far worse in some ways than arguing about 'how many died', since it goes beyond politics and humanity and messes with people's salvation. But, the world is big and not everyine shares my views. I would never dream of sending people to jail to silence them because they claimed the crucifixion didn't happen. Actually, it would just make me look suspicious, as if I had something to hide, something that wouldn't stand up to scrutiny. So I would rather let them have their say and argue it out with them, on the basis 'the truth will always out'. It is my view that people like Irving could easily been shown up to be charlatans if they were engaged with. Otherwise - we arrive at the point Bruce was making. The accusation of being (or being like) a holocaust denier - with the legal implications such an accusation carries - often raises its ugly head on these political threads, and I feel it necessary to point out that what Bruce is arguing is that all viewpoints should be listened to, even if they conflict with one's own. I just wish he, and those of a similar view - could see this applies both ways.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 01:56 PM

Quote from Pallestinian 8th grade text book [Reading and Texts Part II, Grade 8 (2002), p. 16]

Your enemies seek life while you seek death. These drops of blood that gush from your bodies will be transformed tomorrow into blazing red meteors that will fall down upon the heads of your enemies.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 01:33 PM

Iran behind attempt to funnel millions of dollars into Gaza from EgyptIran is responsible for an attempt last week to funnel millions of dollars to Hamas in the Gaza Strip by way of Egypt, the Egyptian paper Al-Ahram reported on Saturday.

The money was found in suitcases in the car of Hamas spokesman Ayman Taha. The suitcases reportedly contained $9 million along with 2 million Euros.

An Egyptian official said the money represents "only a small portion of the large amounts of money Iran has funneled to Hamas over the last week."
        Advertisement
Taha deposited the cash in a bank in the Egyptian town of El Arish last Thursday after Egyptian authorities stopped him taking it home to Gaza, police sources said. He later crossed into the Palestinian coastal strip without the money.

The money is in an account at the state-owned National Bank of Egypt in El Arish in northern Sinai in the name of an Egyptian government body, Egytpian officials said.

Taha was part of a Hamas delegation which has been in Cairo for talks with Egyptian intelligence on a long-term truce between Israel and armed Palestinian groups in Gaza.

At the Rafah border crossing between Egypt and Gaza, Egyptian border authorities let through the other five members of the Hamas team but held back Taha because of the money.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 08:14 PM

Nickhere--

That was pretty low, your comment about David Irving. If you know anything about him, you know his writings are all available, and he is free to speak his mind in all places except the few countries--Austria and Germany and a couple of others, but not the US--where Holocaust Denial is a crime akin to incitement against Jews. If I had my druthers, those laws wouldn't exist. But those countries have their own guilt to deal with regarding the Holocaust.

While he makes himself out a victim, he has been found by a British Court to be a Holocaust Denier. This was not the government's attempt to silence him. It was the verdict to a libel suit HE filed against an American professor who had so characterized him. She had the burden of proving that he Was what she claimed, a Holocaust Denier (as opposed to in the States where he would have had to prove he wasn't).

Irving was, in essence, silenced by his own actions, hoist on his own petard, in filing the suit.

His books are still available at Amazon.com should you care to purchase any.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: heatherblether
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 07:22 PM

To Bearded bruce
Those Israeli political and military who were up to their necks in the blood and gore of innocent children will have their freedom of speech in a court of international law...but until that day i am all in favour of people calling for their their arrest ...the big difference is the demonstrators in London did not use phospherous bombs or blow up apartment blocks filled with civilians.

Actually as i understand it they blocked the front door and later a busy street and one person shinned up a drainpipe to a window ledge. Of course the British police were there...not to arrest the war criminal but to drag off a few demonstrators including the window ledge man.

Which tells us a little more about the role of the police and the nature of the state. Of course the state of Israel is a hijack state ,founded on the expulsion of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians and the wholesale theft of their land.

I notice today that the Israelis hijacked a Lebanese ship on the high seas in order to prevent it carrying humanitarian supplies to Gaza.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 07:17 PM

BBruce: "Yes, freedom of speech is far too dangerous to allow to those one disagrees with..."

Not that I have any time for the man, but isn't that what people say about David Irving (for example)?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 05:09 PM

By the way, nobody knows how many people were killed in Jenin. The only reports that are being used to make that determination are the number of bodies that showed up at hospitals and morgues. The number of people who were buried under buildings by IDF bulldozers remains unknown.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 05:04 PM

The argument is being made that UN workers and civilian witnesses are lying about the source of the weapons that killed the people in the UN school compound in the video I posted, because Hamas is making them. No evidence has been presented in support of this other than that Hamas kills some people. Until proof is presented that the people in the UN school compound are lying when they say that Israel fired the weapons that hit the school because Hamas told them to, we can dismiss that claim as an attempt to whitewash an obvious war crime committed by Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 04:45 PM

"I must say I was greatly encouraged by the protestors who stopped an Israeli army colonel giving a victory talk to zionist students in north London this week."

Yes, freedom of speech is far too dangerous to allow to those one disagrees with...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 03:55 PM

"humiliations such as the pregnant woman who has to wait for hours to get to hospital "


If the Palestinians had NOT previously used ambulances to bring armed terrorists and bombs into Israel, ambulances might be let in a little faster. But that war crime was ok, since it was not Jews doing it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:55 PM

Did ** I ** say all?????


YOU are the one claiming that Israel is targeting civilians, when all evidence is to the contrary. Show me evidence of that, and I will go look for how many aid workers dared to disagree with Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:50 PM

I'd like to see some evidence that Hamas kills all foreign aid workers who don't say what Hamas wants them to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:40 PM

Sorry.

Israel does NOT control who is in Gaza- Just who goes in or out of the Israeli border.

Hamas just kills people.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:38 PM

Hamas doesn't control who can and can't be in Gaza. Israel controls who can and can't be in Gaza. So, if the UN people are changing their stories to please anyone, it would be Israel they were doing if for and not Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:35 PM

"People do and say things that Hamas doesn't agree with all the time in Gaza and are not kicked out."

Oh, like the Fatah people who just happen to fall off large buildings, or put burning tires filled with gasoline around their necks???


The UN is doing the best they can, in difficult circumstances- but they will make the public statements that Hamas request of them in order to remain and do any good that they can.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:32 PM

People do and say things that Hamas doesn't agree with all the time in Gaza and are not kicked out. So that little attempted whitewash won't work.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:28 PM

Palestinian child becomes Jihad fighter in Hamas Childrens TV Video

Hamas TV continues active promotion of Shahada (martyrdom) directed at children. The new video clip, broadcast Sunday, follows the growth of a young Palestinian boy from a child into a Hamas Shahid – Martyr for Allah. The video shows the young child going to the mosque, praying and reading from the Quran, and then holding an automatic rifle together with the Quran as he envisions future participation in violent acts.

The child then matures into a Hamas fighter, is shown participating in battle against Israel, and eventually dying as a Shahid as the choir sings, "The pure blood will produce honor and glory."

This video directs Palestinian children to aspire to Shahada, reiterating a recurring music video theme of seven years that Shahada is expected of children. "Honor and glory" and "Shahada is sweet" are some of these messages specifically packaged for children on Hamas TV and Fatah controlled PA TV.

PA schoolbooks likewise promote Shahada death among children.

One example:

"O heroes... Do not talk yourselves into flight. Your enemies seek life while you seek death. These drops of blood that gush from your bodies will be transformed tomorrow into blazing red meteors that will fall down upon the heads of your enemies." [Reading and Texts Part II, Grade 8 (2002), p. 16]

The following is an excerpt from the new clip on Hamas TV:

"We have come!
Machine-gun and Quran in our hands,
[visual: see child holding machine-gun and Quran]
We've grown and so has the right,
In the eyes of the wronged,
[visual: see child turn into adult and attack Israel] …
We swore to retrieve the land,
The pure blood will produce
Honor and glory.
[visual: see him (child now turned adult) shot dead as Shahid - Martyr]

Al-Aqsa TV

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:26 PM

The same UN people who are in Gaza under Hamas control, who need Hamas approval to remain?

Or the ones who stopped the food shipments because Hamas was stealing them?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:24 PM

It wasn't a statement from Hamas that indicated it was Israeli shells and white phospherous. It was witnesses in the UN compound, including UN people who said they were Israeli weapons. I'll take their word for it over the government of Israel any day of the week.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: heatherblether
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 01:49 PM

To Teribus,
Thank you for your query...but Heather is my wife and has been for a very long time.But your concern does not stop me from pointing out to you and your Israel supporting mates that mass murder was committed in Gaza and hopefully those responsible will have to face the conswequences of dropping big bombs on apartment blocks and the 20000 plus builds in Gaza killing and maiming thousands of civilians.It is a crime.
IFOR

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 01:37 PM

Hamas negotiators stopped with suitcases of cash

Associated Press Writer Sarah El Deeb, Thu Feb 5

CAIRO – Hamas negotiators left Egypt without a long-term cease-fire with Israel on Thursday — but not before some members of the militant group's delegation were stopped at the Gaza border carrying millions in cash.

The delegation walked away from the cease-fire talks because of disagreements over the blockage on Gaza and border security. Talks will continue at a later date.

An Egyptian security official, speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak to the media, said the group initially refused to be searched by Egyptian authorities at the Rafah border crossing. When the group relented, authorities found $7 million and 2 million euros ($2.5 million) in cash in their suitcases. Another security official, also speaking on condition of anonymity, said $9 million and 2 million euros were found. The discrepancy could not be immediately explained.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 01:05 PM

Ah heatherblether = ifor = Guest ifor

Why not just stick to one identity please, or is it a requirement that heatherblether needs the two others so illustrate broad agreement on any given subject??

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: heatherblether
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 12:23 PM

Teribus,
I am afraid your huffing and puffing will not divert attention one jot from the war crimes Israel has committed in Gaza.

By the way do consult your atlas as to the location of Jenin.The last time I looked it is in territory being illegally occupied by an Israeli army that is only too willing to shoot dead those who are protesting about a whole range of humiliations such as the pregnant woman who has to wait for hours to get to hospital or the worker who loses his job because he can't travel to work or the old farmer who sees his olive grove destroyed by some arrogant Russian Israeli driving a bulldozer.

I must say I was greatly encouraged by the protestors who stopped an Israeli army colonel giving a victory talk to zionist students in north London this week.

For a very long time to come when representatives of the Israeli state come to town they will be met with protests at the wholesale murder of children and women in Gaza.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 10:54 AM

heatherblether, CarolC, Guest ifor, Guest HUGO - A couple of simple questions for you:

1. "How many people did Israeli Forces kill in Jenin when they went into the refugee camp there to halt a spate of suicide bombings?"

2. "How many people did the Palestinians claim the Israeli Forces killed in that incursion?"

For those of you who do not want to wait until hell freezes over before any of the aforementioned answers those questions the answers are given below:

Answer to Question 1 = 52 to 56 Palestinians, of whom 5-26 may have been civilians.
Answer to Question 2 = At one point 3000 then down 1300 then down to 500 and the western media, TV and particularly the "International Relief Organisations" lapped it up condemning Israel right left and centre.

But it was all a lie, all a myth. But as CarolC knows full well but refuses point blank to admit that is not the first time that Arabs have lied about Jews killing Arabs is it? You can trace that particular little idiosyncrasy all the way back to 1920/1921.

So when it comes to being sceptical about who reports what, the IDF in the past have proved a damn sight more truthful that either Hamas, Fatah or Hezbollah.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: heatherblether
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 10:18 AM

I am amazed at the abusive and foul language being used by zionists in defence of the war crimes committed by the Israeli military in Gaza.
Get real ! The warplanes and helicopter gunships that fired their missiles and bombs onto the did in fact come from bases in Israel.

Those Israeli who stood on those hilltops a few miles outside the city were indeed cheering the explosions with gusto.Those explosions killed and maimed thousands and they are still pulling bodies out of the rubble.

Those white phospherous shells raining down on the civilian population were dropped by the Israeli military.

It was Israeli armoured bulldozers and tanks that flattened whole neighbourhoods and Israeli troops did shoot down men,women and children fleeing the carnage under the "protection" of white flags.

I know that the zionist don't like being told that the state of Israel is a state established on the ethnic cleansing of hundreds of thousands of Palestinian people and the theft of their land...but facts have a way of muscling into the discourse...and facts being awkward, take sides.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 10:16 AM

Hamas achieves goals!!!


"New polls Friday showed the likely winner would be hard-line Likud Party leader Benjamin Netanyahu, who says the current government ended the Gaza operation too early, without causing enough damage to the Islamic group. "


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090206/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 08:41 AM

CarolC,

Can you show any evidence that it was an Israeli shell, and not an Hamas morter shell? In the past, Hamas has claimed that the misfires form it's attacks on Israel were Isralei shelling, even when that was proven to be false.

Ditto the WP.

Or do you acept Hamas staements unverified, and only question Israeli ones???

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:49 AM

...and the video shows the damage from the shell that killed the children inside the compound.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:42 AM

At least three UN schools were hit during those attacks. The one in the video I posted was the third. Perhaps another of the schools that were hit did not have any deaths. But in the school in the video I posted, two children were killed, and someone else had their legs blown off. Fourteen were wounded in all.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:37 AM

Joe the guy that pumps gas down the street says that an Israeli set fire to his pants. When asked to prove this he started pulling his own leg.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:32 AM

Stories of one or more shells landing inside the schoolyard were inaccurate The teacher who was in the compound at the time of the shelling was adamant: "Inside [the compound] there were 12 injured, but there were no dead."

Hazem Balousha, who runs an auto-body shop across the road from the UNRWA school, was down the street, just out of range of the shrapnel, when the three shells hit. He showed a reporter where they landed: one to the right of his shop, one to the left, and one right in front. "There were only three," he said. "They were all out here on the road."

John Ging, UNRWA's operations director in Gaza, acknowledged in an interview this week that all three Israeli mortar shells landed outside the school … "I know no one was killed in the school," Mr. Ging said

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:29 AM

1000

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:23 AM

Film footage of the UN school being shelled and photographs of it being hit with white phospherous (children in the compound were killed in this attack)...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmT0MjlPpRo

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 12:48 AM

The evidence is in on Islamist terrorism

From Melbourne to the Middle East, terrorists want to kill

February 06, 2009 Article from: The Australian

ABDUL Nacer Benbrika is morally on a different planet from the rest of us and it is about time people who think the terror threat is exaggerated realise it. Benbrika was sentenced in a Melbourne court on Tuesday to 15 years for terror offences. Six of his henchmen also went to prison. The cause of their convictions explains a great deal about the way Islamist extremists, some mad, some bad and all dangerous to know, will twist the tenets of the honoured Muslim faith into a justification of mass murder. Their example shows how terrorists, from Melbourne to the Middle East, think and act the same. And it demonstrates how enemies of Israel in the West, who explain terrorism as an inevitable response to the problems of the Palestinians, miss the point. The grim reality is that for religious zealots with murder on their mind, any excuse will do.

Anybody who believes Benbrika was a misguided man who did no harm in the end should consider the evidence against him. Despite Australia giving him a home, and an unearned social security income paid to support his seven children, he was keen to kill as many of us as he could. Certainly, he said Australians deserved to die because of the country's involvement in the war against Saddam Hussein. But he also argued Islam sanctioned death for unbelievers. That Benbrika is as incompetent as he is irrational and never launched an attack does not matter. The World Trade Centre attackers were not highly trained combatants either -- struggling to fly a plane straight. As judge Bernard Bongiorno said in court, "terrorist acts as they have been experienced in modern times are often carried out by amateurs whose principal attribute has not been skill, but rather zealous or fanatical belief".

For an example of the fanaticism Justice Bongiorno points to, it is impossible to beat Samira Ahmed Jassim, who was arrested in Iraq this week. This woman is an enemy of the emerging Iraqi democracy and expressed her political opinions by organizing 28 terrorist attacks. Her modus operandi was to arrange for women to be raped and then tell them the only way they could erase the shame was to blow themselves up, taking unbelievers, in this case ordinary Iraqis, invariably Muslims, with them. The pointless brutality of such crimes beggars belief for all but those who see mass murder as a form of worship. It is nonsensical to suggest that it serves any political purpose. Nor does the way the Hamas Government of Gaza uses suicide bombers and rocket attacks. Hamas has the despicable distinction of deploying the first female suicide bomber. That 2002 attack killed two, wounded 150 people and accomplished precisely nothing. Nor did the Hamas rocket attacks that led the Israeli army to intervene in Gaza last month. Hamas has no chance of defeating Israel in open war and there was no chance that Muslim nations would come to its assistance. But attacking Israel at every opportunity makes sense to anybody who believes in a divine directive to destroy the Jewish state.

It is time for people who believe Western decadence and the Iraq war are the cause of terror attacks to accept the obvious. While Islamic extremists sometimes dress up their motives in the language of conventional politics, they are at war with everybody who does not agree with them. The vast majority of Muslims understand this and recognise there is no place in their faith for terror of the Hamas and Benbrika kind. Opposition to sectarian conflict was one of the reasons Iraqis voted against religious candidates at last weekend's provincial elections, with Shia religious parties losing control of five of the seven provinces they previously ran. It is also time for enemies of Israel to stop blaming the Jewish state for war crimes it did not commit, presumably on the assumption that anything that makes Israel look bad helps Hamas, the ostensible ally of innocent Palestinians. Last month, UN officials in Gaza said Israeli forces had mortared a school where they knew civilians were sheltering. It made international headlines and undoubtedly encouraged Muslim anger all over the world. But it wasn't true -- and the UN knew it. There is no reasoning with Hamas terrorists and the Benbrikas of the world and no case for any argument that explains their actions as anything other than acts of evil.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 12:15 AM

The United Nations halted aid deliveries to the besieged Gaza Strip on Thursday, citing Israeli attacks on its staff and installations hours after it said tank fire killed one of its drivers as he went to pick up a shipment.

    UN spokesman Adnan Abu Hasna said the UN coordinated the delivery with Israel, and the vehicle was marked with a UN flag and insignia when it was shot in northern Gaza. The Israeli army said it was investigating.

    "The UN is suspending its aid operations in Gaza until we can get safety and security guarantees for our staff," spokesman Chris Gunness said. "We've been coordinating with them (Israeli forces) and yet our staff continues to be hit and killed."

    UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon issued a statement saying that he "condemns the IDF firing on a United Nations aid convoy in Gaza."


Sounds terrible. Only problem is, Hamas Killed UNRWA Driver

    Hamas snipers killed a United Nations worker who was driving a supply truck into Gaza, a MDA medic said Thursday evening. The medic evacuated two wounded UN workers to Barzilai hospital in Ashkelon.

    The medic based his report on testimony from IDF soldiers, who went into Gaza to rescue the two wounded Arab workers. The workers suffered gunshot wounds.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 11:50 PM

If the objective were extermination (gee, such loaded language) do you really think the Israelis would have screwed it up so badly? Besides, Barry, Hamas has the extermination of Israelis--JEWISH Israelis--in their fucking charter. What the hell kinda guy ARE you?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 09:05 PM

Hams stole blanets, agreed, they are criminals

Israeli forces murdered women, children, innocent civilians, over 1100, they are exterminators!

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 08:07 PM

"Now it is clear that western governments are going to try to throw a collective blanket of amnesia . . . "

Uh, ifor, Hamas stole the fuckin' blankets. Or do you just read shit that denigrates Israel? Asshole.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 08:05 PM

"The Israeli military is covered in the blood of innocent,men women and children,They behaved like some barbaric Waffen SS unit killing and maiming thousands of civilians..... men,women and children.Many were slaughtered under white flags."

You are so fulla shit. Marxism went down the tubes. Give up the lingo. It's not language; it's jingoism.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 01:14 PM

To Bobad
The Israeli military is covered in the blood of innocent,men women and children,They behaved like some barbaric Waffen SS unit killing and maiming thousands of civilians..... men,women and children.Many were slaughtered under white flags.
Of course the Israeli military does its best to deny responsiblity but the evidence is there to see....thousands of buildings destroyed,racist filth scrawled on walls,schools,clinics hospitals and civic offices blown up.
Now it is clear that western governments are going to try to throw a collective blanket of amnesia over the mass murder in Gaza but I don't think they will get away with it.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 06:41 AM

The UN folks in Gaza are well-minded people trying to do there best- but they see a need to support Hamas in order to get their job done. If they do NOT support the claims Hamas makes, they will lose any chance to do what good they can.

THAT is why it is essential to get information form ALL sides, and sift through for the truth- rather than accept any one report as definitive.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: bobad
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 10:49 PM

"In the hours following the strike and ever since, the United Nations, the media and Palestinians in Gaza have accused Israel of striking the school."

I'd like to know who these "United Nations" people are.
It makes one wonder what their agenda is.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 08:57 PM

Just thought a few folks would want to read this article again.

"U.N. backs off claim Israel struck Gaza school

    JERUSALEM (JTA) -- The United Nations has backed off a claim that Israel struck one of its schools in Gaza.

The Jan. 6 incident, in which 43 Palestinians were killed, has been a major point of contention between Israel and the United Nations over the Gaza military operation.

The U.N. humanitarian coordinator in Jerusalem, Maxwell Gaylord, said Monday that the Israeli mortar shells landed in the street near the United Nations Relief and Works Agency school in Gaza and not inside the school, which was sheltering Palestinian refugees, Ha'aretz reported.

In the hours following the strike and ever since, the United Nations, the media and Palestinians in Gaza have accused Israel of striking the school. Israeli army officials have said previously that the two mortar shells could not have done the damage and caused the deaths that occurred near the school. Officials also have maintained that they did not target the school but fired in the direction of Hamas gunfire.

A teacher inside the school compound at the time of the airstrike told Canada's Globe and Mail newspaper last week that no one was killed inside the compound in the wake of the attack."

Thanks for posting it, C Ham.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 01:16 PM

I said this moning that polls indicate Likud will win 28-34 of the 120 seats in the Israeli election.

A new poll published today says 27

"The Kadima Party has also pulled closer to the leading Likud Party in advance of Israel's Feb. 10 national elections, according to the Ma'ariv/Teleseker poll released Wednesday.

The poll found that Likud is leading with 27 seats, followed by Kadima with 23 seats. Both Israel Beitanu and Labor are polling with 17 mandates.

In other results, the religious Sephardic Shas Party polled at 10 Knesset seats, the left-wing Hatnua Hahadasha-Meretz at six seats, United Torah Judaism at five seats and Arab parties Hadash and United Arab List each with four."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 12:16 PM

Palestine has had at least five bites at the apple of peace, 1949, 1967, 1973--all after major fighting, with several Arab countries abetting them--and under the aegis President Clinton, and after the Israeli pullout from Gaza respectively. Palestine chose, instead, the bite from the apple of discord.

So if Palestine wants to get the foot of Israel off its neck (as you so inelegantly characterize it, Mr Finn), perhaps it should stand tall, suck it up and realize that Israel is going to remain as Israel, and recognizing the need for a true, lasting and peaceful co-existence side by side of Israel.

They do not get to dictate the terms...they must negotiate in good faith. Any agreement must allow Jews unfettered access to Jewish holy sites. It must grant citizenship to Jews living within its borders, just as Arabs who stayed in Israel are citizens of that country. Those Jews who do not want to be citizens of Palestine, must relocate back to Israel or emigrate to other countries.

When Jews say 'never again', it means more than no more holocaust. It means, too, that when when some glib demogogue wishes to blame Jews for the troubles of their country, and foments violence against Jews, there will be a place in the world, albeit very tiny, where Jews can live freely. It means that if there is a country that disallows the practice of Judaism, there is a place that Jews can go and be Jews. Israel is, and will remain, that place

History has shown that from the first century BCE (AD) to February of 2009 these things happen...over and over again. As the countries of the world fragment into tribal units, there is no reason to think the world will be any friendlier to Jews or Israel.

This is my last post on this thread. I have said everything I need to say. All of you Israel bashers are now free to roam about the cabin and do your thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 11:39 AM

Somewhere in this thread there was a post proclaiming that the Israelis were banning two Arab Israeli Political Parties from the forthcoming ballot and election. This little snippet was trumped as illustrating how "undemocratic" Israel was.

Where is the person who wrote that thread and why have they not retracted the accusation??

Both parties appealed the ruling under israeli law and won - both parties will take part in the election.

By way of contrast, in Gaza, opponents of Hamas just get shot.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 11:14 AM

Israel has just about scuppered any possibility of a just and workable two state solution by allowing, and indeed encouraging, around 400000 Zionist settlers on the illegally occupied West Bank which would have been the home of a Palestinian state if the two state solution could have been realised.

These settlers are armed to the teeth,behave like paramiltaries and their bullying of the Palestinians who live near them is a daily occurance.

They shoot,beat up and generally intimidate young and old alike.

The Israeli police and security forces usually stand by and watch and barely lift a finger to stop the settler violence and thuggery.

The situation has got so bad that Israeli human rights groups have provided the Palestinian farmers with video cameras to record the beatings and intimidation...and you can see these on the net. Its not a pretty sight seeing Settler thugs attacking homes,cars and people.

It seems to me that the two state solution has become unworkable because of the short sightedness,greed and arrogance of successive Israeli governments,always backed by the might of the USA of course.
ifor