BS: Israel Moves in.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 01:57 AM

CarolC no-one has answered my question about the Arab populations of Gaza, Israel and the West Bank. Nickhere might have thought that he was providing an answer by mentioning something about Israeli birth rates but that was not the question that was asked.

If, as you say that Israel for the last 60 years has been engaged in a concerted effort of "ethnic cleansing" and "ongoing genocide" can you please tell us all how the Arab population in Gaza, Israel itself and in the West Bank has grown at the rate that it has done since 1948?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 01:57 AM

"When Hitler was beginning his extermination of European Jews, he had not yet committed genocide. But he was in the process of committing genocide."

Do you work hard at making up your own syntax? As soon as Hitler and his cronies, German and Palestinian [See 'Icon of Evil'], decided on the final solution and killed the first Jew, they were both in the PROCESS and the ACT of committing genocide. And I'm not even considering the masses of Jews killed in Germany before the Final Solution was implemented. There is no…repeat…there is NO difference. You are 'choosing' your words so as to say nothing.

"When a government starves a civilian population, one can't really say that a genocide has been committed while relatively few numbers of people have died."

At what number can one say a genocide is being committed? If you believe that the Israeli government is starving Gaza with the express intent of killing as many people as possible for no other reason then they are Palestinian, then you ARE implicating Israel in genocide, whether only one Gazan dies, or hundreds of thousand die. Again you said nothing in what you wrote. Are you afraid to say what you really think? I don't think so. But I do think you choose your words so you can't, to your way of thinking, be pinned down.

If Hamas had better rockets, and were better able to use them, and were able to kill thousands of Israelis, targeting as they do primarily civilian targets, would they then be committing genocide, or would they only be killing an enemy?

And I still don't know what you mean by an 'accomplished genocide'. I can hardly wait to find out. But I guess that will have to wait until tomorrow (Monday) night.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 12:48 AM

When Hitler was beginning his extermination of European Jews, he had not yet committed genocide. But he was in the process of committing genocide. I don't always have time to choose my words with utmost care, but when I use words that are as emotionally loaded as the word genocide is, I do use them with utmost care. The distinction is important because when a government is embarking on a course of genocide, it is not too late to stop it. But if we don't recognize that it is an ongoing genocide, we might not take it as seriously as we ought to and need to, and we might not do what is needed to make it stop until it is too late, as we saw for instance, in Europe during WWII.

In some parts of occupied Palestine, there is an abundance of graffiti saying things like "Arabs to the gas chambers" and "Gass the Arabs" and "Kill all Arabs", frequently accompanied by a "Star of David". Although Palestinians request that this graffiti be removed, they have found that the only way to get the government to do anything about it is to paint a swastika nearby as well. Then the graffiti comes down very quickly. This is the same kind of environment in which genocides become reality - especially when the behavior in question has the tacit approval of the government that is in control of the area.

When a government starves a civilian population, one can't really say that a genocide has been committed while relatively few numbers of people have died. However, starving a civilian population is a genocidal policy, and therefore constitutes an ongoing genocide as long as that policy is in place.

I realize, however, that it is much more emotionally satisfying to say that my words are mealy mouthed and project onto my words some other meaning than the one I intended.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 12:00 AM

CarolC, I knew that was going to be your mealy mouthed answer. What you have said is a difference without a distinction. Either Israel is committing genocide or it is not. Either Israel has committed genocide in the process of committing genocide or it has not committed genocide. Have the guts to say exactly what you mean straight out.

I don't even know what you mean by an accomplished genocide. But you'll explain in your inimitable way. Was Hitler's an accomplished genocide? Was the Turks' an accomplished genocide? Was the Hutus' (or Tutsis') an accomplished genocide? They are, after all, past tense. And if yes, doesn't that stretch the meaning of accomplished beyond recognition?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 11:01 PM

That's correct. "Committed" is in the past tense, and denotes an already accomplished genocide. "Ongoing", is in the present tense, and denotes a genocide that is still underway. There is a big difference between these two things.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 10:12 PM

01 Feb 09 - 08:53 PM CarolC wrote:
"I have not said that the government of Israel has committed genocide."

31 Jan 09 - 03:32 AM CarolC wrote:
"There is nothing the Palestinians can or could do to make the government of Israel stop its ethnic cleansing(and in the case of Gaza, the ongoing genocide)..."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 09:33 PM

Glad I could provide a chuckle for you, CarolC. It was, however, directly responsive and on point to a statement made to me (and everyone) about Black rule in South Africa (the operative words being 'directly' and 'responsive'.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 09:30 PM

"I doubt if a one-state solution will in fact emerge, but if I lived in that part of the world, whether as an Israeli or a Palestinian, that would be the one I would prefer."

Safe to say. You don't live there.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 08:53 PM

Someone else has answered the question of population for me. I am reminded of a story that I think was told by Woody Guthrie about some rabbits that are chased into a log by hunters or something. One of them says to the other, "What do we do now?", and the other rabbit says, "I guess we'll just have to stay here til we outnumber them."

I have not said that the government of Israel has committed genocide. I have said that they are in the process of committing genocide. Time will tell if they will finish what they have started. If Likud gets elected, I think there's a distinct possibility that they will.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 08:37 PM

I chuckle at the notion of people accusing the Palestinians of not having a Nelson Mandela (or a Gandhi, which is another one people like to say). I think the real problem is that Israel has no Abraham Lincoln.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 08:35 PM

First of all, I do not stand up for Hamas. But I do understand why they do what they do, and I don't agree with anyone's assertions that what Hamas does is any worse than what the government of Israel does. Nor do I accept the assertion that what Hamas does is unprovoked. I do disagree with their methods of waging their resistance, but their resistance is legitimate.

Secondly, they cannot help but store weapons near civilians. There is no part of Gaza that is not near civilians. Gaza is the most densely populated patch of land in the world. And I don't agree that the Palestinians should not have weapons with which to defend themselves.

Hamas is more concerned with ending the Israeli occupation of the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem than they are with spreading hate toward Israel. They have said that if the Palestinians vote in a referendum for a two state solution using the pre-1967 borders (with some possibility of some land swaps), Hamas will not oppose it. The government of Israel needs to demonize Hamas because it is using them to prevent a negotiated peace settlement. The government of Israel has no intention of allowing the Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem to remain there. They intend to either remove and/or kill them all, and then annex those areas without having to risk losing their Jewish majority.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 08:25 PM

The Likud party opposes a two state solution. From their platform...

http://www.knesset.gov.il/elections/knesset15/elikud_m.htm

"The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river."


If Likud is elected this time around, we will know that the majority of Israelis also oppose a two state solution.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 07:57 PM

High birth rate, Teribus? Maybe Israel's adherence to "Western Culture" includes an adherence to the western fashion for having tiny families of 1, maybe 2 kids.

While cultures derided as 'traditional' continue to have high birthrates, we in the West on the other hand have slowly been breeding ourselves downwards. Priority of career over family, late start in having families, high rates of abortion and contraception have all resulted in almost zero percent birthrates in many European countries (by which I mean the number of births that exceed / replace the number of mortalities every year). The same pattern can be found in the US despite some modest growth in population there (population growth should be a lot higher).

Dunno, but it might explain some of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 07:36 PM

Kevin, CarolC, don't avoid the question!!

Please tell us all the statistics relating to the size of the palestinian population both in Israel and in Gaza and the West Bank from 1948 until today.

You have shouted it from the roof-tops that Israel has been engaged in "ethnic cleansing" and in a concentrated campaign of "genocide" so can you please explain why the population of Arab Palestinians has increased in all three areas??

If you cannot explain the population increase will you please cease and desist from claiming that there is in fact any campaign of "ethinic ceansing" or "genocide" being undertaken by the Israeli Government.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 07:10 PM

PRECISELY McGrath! they are alive to find new homes. Beats by a longshot being liquidated.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 06:58 PM

Driving people into exile isn't necessarily the same thing as killing them.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 06:40 PM

Hey CarolC a simple question could you plese respond:

"on the subject of "ethnic cleansing"; "genocide" and the like could you please provide some Arab population statistics for Israel, Gaza and the West Bank from 1948 to the present day? I mean if Israel has been engaged in this wholesale slaughter of innocents as you all claim I would have thought that after such prodigious efforts over the last 60 years Palestinian Arabs would be rather thin on the ground. But somehow I don't think that they are - any reason for that??"

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 04:19 PM

Well, more rockets out of Gaza, and reportedly Israelis have dropped warning notes on folks living near known supply tunnels.

It ain't over.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 02:25 PM

You can't actually get that far away from civilians in a ghetto.

But no disagreement - it would be far better if there weren't any Palestinians firing rockets at Israel. It is not a sensible or right thing to do, and it is just makes things worse (Hamas are not in fact the only people involved, a point which gets ignored). Virtually everyone agrees that.

However some people who think that believe that the same is true of Israeli bombs and shells and of the blockade on essential supplies. Others think that such Israeli actions should be supported.

It is right to try to understand why people on both sides behave the way they do. But that is not the same thing as saying that what they do is right. And that applies every bit as much to Israel as it to Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 02:16 PM

Excepting the Holocaust, I might agree with you, McGrath. But in the ebb and flow of history, when Jews were tolerated in Europe, they were less so in Islamic lands; the converse appears to be true when Jews were not treated well in Europe.

That aside, however, I am speaking particularly and specifically about Jews in Palestine. Ironically, after the Roman destruction of Jewry in Judea (and renaming the area Palestine) the Jewish remnant never had it well in their own homeland...whether under Christian or Muslim rule. And history tells us that will happen there again under if there is single-state solution.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 02:03 PM

"The reason rockets are being fired into Israel from Gaza is because the government of Israel has been waging a war against the civilians of Gaza with its total blockade, not allowing any of the basic necessities of life to go in to Gaza. The people there are starving. People who value human life don't do that sort of thing to other human beings."


But Hamas are happily watching their OWN PEOPLE being killed, Carol, and THEY are the very cause of it, because they store their rockets amongst their people!

SURELY, if they had feeling for the men, women and children of Palestine, the very ones they are supposed to be caring about, they'd store their weapons as far away from civilian populations as they can manage?

They *WNAT* Israel to be hated around the world for bombing innocent civilians, whislt refusing to accept that the reason Israel so often has to do this, is because of where they, Hamas, store and fire their rockets.

HOW can you stand up for people who do that? I don't understand. How can the world refuse to demand that Hamas stop doing this. How come the Palestinian people themselves don't demand it?

ALL Israel ever wanted was to be left in peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 01:59 PM

Europe has a far far worse history of persecution of Jews than Islamic countries have.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 01:49 PM

The difference, McGrath, is that South African whites had never lived under Black rule, and so did not know what to expect. Nelson mandela was an exceptional leader.

Jews, on the other hand, had centuries of rule under Arab, Ottoman (Muslim) majorities, and the British Mandate in Palestine. History show this not to have been good for Jews. And so far there has been no Palestinian Mandela.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 01:35 PM

"National suicide"

Many white South Africans said that kind of thing when it came to talk about recognising non-whites as fellow citizens.

And it's also the kind of language which the BNP likes to use.

I doubt if a one-state solution will in fact emerge, but if I lived in that part of the world, whether as an Israeli or a Palestinian, that would be the one I would prefer.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 01:10 PM

"The main opposition to that [a one state solution] would be likely to come from people on the Israelis side."

This is true. As I pointed out before, a one state solution is a Palestine state solution within a generation...two at the most. Israel commits national suicide to agree to such an arrangement, but what the hey?!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 01:05 PM

They may so self-describe...but they are so much more than a peace movement, as a visit to their page over the past year plus would attest.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 12:37 PM

"if Gaza did eventually come under Israel, and Arab and Jew were working, living and loving alongside one another, as they already are in some parts of Israel, would that be a bad thing? That might well be the best way forward both for Gaza and for the West Bank, in a one-state solution.

The main opposition to that would be likely to come from people on the Israelis side.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 12:35 PM

I, personally, am not against Israel annexing Gaza and the West Bank if the non-Jewish Palestinians would be given exactly the same rights as Jews. But the government of Israel doesn't want that because if they did that, they would lose the Jewish majority in Israel.

The reason rockets are being fired into Israel from Gaza is because the government of Israel has been waging a war against the civilians of Gaza with its total blockade, not allowing any of the basic necessities of life to go in to Gaza. The people there are starving. People who value human life don't do that sort of thing to other human beings.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 12:31 PM

It's also not anti-Semitic to say that Israel practices apartheid. Ronnie Kasrils, a South African politician, says that in his opinion, what Israel is doing to the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza is worse than South African apartheid...

http://www.mg.co.za/article/2007-05-21-israel-2007-worse-than-apartheid

But it is apartheid. Palestinians in the West Bank are confined to tiny bantustans that are separated one from the other by Jewish-only settlements that are guarded by the IDF, and that are accessed by Jewish-only roads, and the majority of the Palestinians' water is confiscated by the government of Israel for the use of the settlers. People in the West Bank don't even have enough water to wash themselves, while the settlers use as much water as they want to water their lawns and fill their swimming pools. People in the West Bank have to go through innumerable checkpoints just to get from their homes to their places of work, or to school, or to the doctor or the store, and they are often kept waiting there for hours and even days. Sometimes they aren't allowed through at all, and for no particular reason. Just on the whim of the guards at the checkpoints. They are often humiliated and abused by the guards, and sometimes they even die or give birth at the checkpoints because the guards won't let them through. These checkpoints don't keep Palestinians out of Israel. They are located deep inside of the West Bank.

The settlers in the West Bank regularly abuse the Palestinians and they shoot at them without suffering any consequences. They also prevent the Palestinians from being able to access their olive groves to harvest the olives, preventing the Palestinians from having their livelihood.

I think if Noa Bursie genuinely values human life, as she says she does, she would come back with an entirely different perspective on the situation if she were to ever go and spend time in the West Bank or Gaza living among the Palestinians and seeing for herself what they are experiencing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 12:22 PM

I think the Government of Israel has a very hard time when rockets are being fired at their country. What are they supposed to do, just sit there and let it happen?

I don't think she's saying that at all. I think she's pointing out that in Israel there are many Palestinians, living and working alongside Jews. She doesn't seem to have any problem with that at all. She then goes on to say that this way forward is not happening in Palestine.

It's true.

I'm not trying to twist her words. I agree with much of what she has to say. What you are stating is your interpetation of her words, not her words as fact.

And tell me, if Gaza did eventually come under Israel, and Arab and Jew were working, living and loving alongside one another, as they already are in some parts of Israel, would that be a bad thing? Or is it better to have Gaza forever filled with Hamas and their utter hatred of all Jews, alongside their desire to have their own people killed and maimed, and their wish to annihilate the State of Israel?

Personally, I'd far rather see people living in peace and harmony. The Israelis are already doing this with Palestinians. Look back at my post about Aliza Hava, look at the thread on the Peace Oil products which are produced in Israel by both Arab and Jew combined.

Together is the way forward, not apart.

Until Hamas can see that, there is nothing Israel can do but continue to protect the people within her borders. To do that, she has to stop the rockets from being fired...and to do THAT, she has to target where they are coming from, and of course, the wonderful leaders of Palestine have placed their rockets all around their people.

HOW can you possibly deal with people who are not just hellbent on killing their 'enemy' but on killing their own people too?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 11:57 AM

I didn't identify the J Street group at all. What I posted about them came from their "about" page.


What Noa Bursie is doing is spreading a lot of racist and hatemongering lies about Arabs and about people who oppose the military occupation of the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem. The one about the Arab nations supporting the Nazis, for instance. This is what the Encyclopedia Britannica has to say about it...

"The Arabs of Palestine remained largely quiescent throughout the war. Amīn al-Ḥusaynī had fled—by way of Iraq, Iran, Turkey, and Italy—to Germany, whence he broadcast appeals to his fellow Arabs to ally with the Axis powers against Britain and Zionism. Yet the mufti failed to rally Palestinian Arabs to the Axis cause. Although some supported Germany, the majority supported the Allies, and approximately 23,000 Arabs enlisted in the British forces (especially in the Arab Legion)."

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/439645/Palestine/45070/World-War-II


And she is also trying to make it look like anyone who supports human rights for Palestinians is an anti-Semite (another oft repeted hatemongering lie). Considering the fact that there are many thousands of Jews who support human rights for Palestinians (possibly millions), she must either think that Jews who do that are anti-Semites, or self-hating Jews.

There are a lot of people who believe that Israel deserves to live in peace, but that this is not what the government of Israel has in mind for Israel at this time, and that, instead, it will opt for war, as it always has, in order to increase the size of its borders, and to clear the non-Jews out of the areas that it wants for itself. I happen to be one of those. Calling me an anti-Semite because of that belief on my part is most definitely a smear, and a smear with no basis in reality. People like that use the term anti-Semite as a way of silencing dissent. That is not a legitimate use of the term anti-Semite.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 11:14 AM

"Wow! That's a stunning smear job from Noa Bursie. I guess she's one of those people who would call her fellow Jews who support human rights for Palestinians, "self-hating Jews". "


I am sure she wouldn't. But it would see, to me at least, that she is also supporting human rights for the Jewish people too, and surely, one of those rights must be to be allowed to live in peace.

Israel has only ever wanted to live in peace. It has never been allowed to. That is not Israel's fault, but the fault of those who have continued to wage war upon her, and her people. Perhaps that incredibly important fact has been overlooked by many, at this present time.

What we are seeing is the result of Hamas leaders. 'Leaders' who hide behind and amongst their own people, regardless of their safety, not caring if innocent women, children and indeed men too, get killed and maimed in the process. Leaders? Pah! All that matters to these religious zealots, imo, is power, and the annihilation of Israel. And they will not stop, as has was proved, yet again, only last week. They will never stop. They have been brainwashed since birth. They are little more than killing machines, who happily walk amongst the dead and broken bodies of their own people, whilst putting those who have this escaped death and destruction, in even greater danger.

Read this part again:


"...There is a deep lie that permeates all things in this conflict. That Israel is labeled an "apartheid" society is an abuse of the term and a tremendous affront to those whose lives were destroyed by the institution of apartheid in South Africa. While there is a wealth of evidence to soundly disprove and discredit this accusation, one need look no further than the Israeli Knesset. There are twelve Palestinian ministers currently serving terms in the Israeli parliament. Name one nation in the entire Arab world that has a Jew serving in an official governmental capacity – one. There are Palestinian PARTIES within the Israeli Knesset - Balad and UAL. (I don't ever recall history recording indigenous African representatives within the apartheid government in South Africa.) Over one and a quarter million Palestinians live and function as full citizens within Israel's borders and attend schools, universities, social and religious activities, mosques, sports events, etc. across the broad spectrum of daily activities. Not ONE Jew lives in Gaza (except the kidnapped Israeli soldier, Gilad Shalit). The Nazis called that phenomenon, Judenrein. So, who are the racists?....."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 10:21 AM

I have read J-Street for several years years.

J-Street is NOT the the 'political arm' of a Jewish peace movement. J-Street is a political group of mostly young professional, American, liberal Jews, who advocate and promote many liberal causes they believe affect Jews, one of which is peace as the want it in the Israel Palestine area. Much, if not most, of their agenda closely follows a classic Democratic, liberal agenda here in the United states.

Please identify the group correctly.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 10:10 AM

Wow! That's a stunning smear job from Noa Bursie. I guess she's one of those people who would call her fellow Jews who support human rights for Palestinians, "self-hating Jews".

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 09:45 AM

http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/2009/02/israel-takes-leak-at-settlements.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 09:42 AM

I thought some of you may like to see this blog, of a wonderful musician and pretty darn good person called Noa Bursie:

Noa's myspace page

From that link above, comes this:



***THE EVENING MUSE*** | DEAD SILENCE
Current mood: quiet
Category: Life

The lyrics say it all. The piece below says the rest.

WHY I SUPPORT ISRAEL January 14, 2009


I guess it would be because of the respect for life I was taught as a child - the honor of standing up for and standing by what you believe to be right - because integrity isn't something that can be bought with oil or votes - because I have a brain and an intellect that resists manipulation and the propaganda fed by a deep and pervasive hatred of Jews wherever they exist - most especially, in the State of Israel. I support Israel because I know beyond all doubt the western media, for the most part, is an entertainment industry and is as far from legitimate journalism as the ideals of justice and peace are from the ideology and doctrines of organizations like Hamas and Hizbullah.


As an African-American, and a Jew, and a woman, I have eyes and a memory. I can read. I have the ability to deduce and I have the spirit within me that informs me of a lie. All men deserve to live their lives in peace and raise their children to be free to choose all aspects of their existence without being dominated by religious doctrine, being intimidated by political agendas, or being limited or restricted because of their gender.


There is a deep lie that permeates all things in this conflict. That Israel is labeled an "apartheid" society is an abuse of the term and a tremendous affront to those whose lives were destroyed by the institution of apartheid in South Africa. While there is a wealth of evidence to soundly disprove and discredit this accusation, one need look no further than the Israeli Knesset. There are twelve Palestinian ministers currently serving terms in the Israeli parliament. Name one nation in the entire Arab world that has a Jew serving in an official governmental capacity – one. There are Palestinian PARTIES within the Israeli Knesset - Balad and UAL. (I don't ever recall history recording indigenous African representatives within the apartheid government in South Africa.) Over one and a quarter million Palestinians live and function as full citizens within Israel's borders and attend schools, universities, social and religious activities, mosques, sports events, etc. across the broad spectrum of daily activities. Not ONE Jew lives in Gaza (except the kidnapped Israeli soldier, Gilad Shalit). The Nazis called that phenomenon, Judenrein. So, who are the racists?


It saddens and disgusts me to see otherwise intelligent, caring, empathetic souls emotionally hijacked by the half-truths and prevarications of the western media coupled with the sheer propaganda of the Arab world with regard to the Israeli-Arab conflict. There were tens of thousands of acts of violent terrorism against Jews throughout the Arab Middle East before 1948 and the establishment of an independent State of Israel, before a single Arab "refugee". And something no one ever talks about - there were roughly a million Jews forcibly expelled from Arab nations in the years after Israel became a modern state.


And G-d forbid...lest we forget so very quickly...THE ARAB NATIONS OF THE MIDDLE EAST AND NORTH AFRICA WERE THE ALLIES OF ADOLF HITLER AND THE NAZI IDEOLOGY!!!! So, are we supposed to conveniently "forget" this historical reality or should we assume a radical shift within the consciousness of Islamic Arab culture with regard to anti-Semitism? Sad that humanity has such a terminally short memory. Are the Islamic Arab nations who call for Israel's destruction NO LONGER motivated by the sentiments that wed them in an unholy marriage with Hitler's 'Final Solution'? Should we consider El Hajj Amin al Husseni, the Mufti of Jerusalem, who called on Hitler to import his extermination of Jews to Palestine in the 1930s a bizzare aberration? Is the assertion by the Arab world that "Zionists" STOLE land from the Palestinians" truly the motive behind suicide bombings and other terrorists attacks from Madrid to London - NYC and Jerusalem ALL because of "stolen land"? Such loyalty and unity amongst brethren...such collective outrage...ironic that such devotion and solidarity from nations like Iraq or Egypt or Syria haven't improved the quality of life in the least for a single Palestinian over the past 60 plus years since Israel declared its independence. It would seem such a history of anti-Semitism in the Arab world would speak for itself. Sadly, voices from CNN, Fox News, The NY Times, and Al Jezzera drown out echoes from the past as well as the voice of reason.


Israel comprises an overall landmass approximately the size of New Jersey. Its length may be traveled in roughly eight hours and its breath in just over an hour from the Mediterranean to the Jordanian border. That a landmass so tiny could be the crucible for such withering, consuming hatred for a population that is outnumbered by not merely millions, but hundreds of millions is mind numbing. Consider the numbers - one uniquely Jewish national entity on a landmass that is like an island in a virtually endless expanse of sea compared to twenty-two exclusively Islamic Arab national entities where it is a capital crime for a Jew to step foot. Consider this reality then let's talk about justice and fairness, racism and apartheid. In this paradigm, the word, disproportionate is entirely applicable. The misuse of the word in Israel's war to destroy Hamas would be better applied to the condemnation of this single Jewish entity surrounded by twenty-two hostile, characteristically 'Judenrein' Islamic nations. That fact is what is appallingly "disproportionate".


Consider. Is there a single national entity whose policies and practices are above reproach and who possess the moral authority to criticize Israel, a nation that receives such a staggeringly disproportionate amount of criticism from the UN and countries FROM EVERY CORNER OF THE GLOBE? Are there humanitarian and human rights abuses within a single Islamic Arab nation being decried and voted on by the UN Security Council? Are we being inundated with images from Darfur of Islamic armies perpetrating atrocities against indigenous African peoples (some 400,000 killed, so far)? Clearly, we are not. Why not?


I support Israel because I abhor the double standard and the abject hatred thinly disguised as moral outrage currently being broadcast from around the world. I am appalled at the gloriously ignorant assertions being made by political analyists and apologists for terror and at the outpouring of anti-Semitism and attacks against Jews we are witnessing right now in Europe. This is NOT the RESULT of the Israeli war in Gaza, rather, it is a convenient excuse to vent deeply cherished, millenia old Arab and European Jew hatred. This is the true atrocity being perpetrated before our eyes. A simple and irrational hatred of Jews and their national identity by proxy is what we are witnessing in the reporting of this war.


I'm reminded of a fairly brief scene in Steven Spielberg's epic, Schindler's List. The Nazi's forced Jews from the ghettos to build more houses and this young Jewish woman, who was an engineer, told the commandant that the buildings were structurally unsound and would have to be torn down and rebuilt. This obviously intelligent, professional, skilled woman attempts to do the slave labor she has been given, and she attempts to do it with all the integrity she possesses - and the commandant orders her to be shot. But it was her response that resonates so with me. In a film replete with poignant, memorable scenes, this one stands out. I believe she tells him, "All you can do is kill me." That's power.


That is what I believe intimidates the world about the Jews – resilience, an indomitable collective spirit, perseverance in the face of insurmountable odds, the fierce and unapologetic individuality and identity. Although it is not, nor has it ever been, a "contest" - "Am Yisrael Chai" drowns out "Allahu Akbar" any day of the week both literally and as a metaphoric battle cry. An affirmation of life, even after life has ended, is more powerful than an assertion of domination and conquest. Therein are the roots that nourish the cancer of anti-Semitism in the Arab world. We rejected Mohammad and not only had the audacity to survive, we prospered. We were forcibly exiled from Arab lands and came back and prospered again – and this time in the ancestral Jewish homeland. This is the foundation upon which anti-Semitism is built, and this, moreso than any single rationale or perceived injustice, is why the world loves to hate the Jewish people. We just won't go away.


"TO SIN BY SILENCE WHEN THEY SHOULD PROTEST MAKES COWARDS OF MEN." - Abraham Lincoln DEAD SILENCE lyrics and music by noa bursie © 2005 dedicated to the memory of Tali Hatuel and her daughters, Hila 11, Hadar 9, Roni 7, and Merav 2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tali_Hatuel why are you afraid and ashamed to be right don't apologize for your beliefs in the middle of a fight perhaps it's a curse – would you rather be wrong stand up for something, damn it be decisive and strong dogma's a noble beast with a killer's reputation lean far enough right or left there's neither honor nor condemnation there is a bottom line though – an absolute truth there really are good and bad guys and not every point is moot situational ethics echo back from the abyss what a testament to our times that we have come to this there is a definitive reckoning a definitive black and white a definitive, palpable darkness in the absence of light and we are fallen… good guys on busses – bad guys on planes a conspiracy of Jews is somehow always to blame dance the inferno in a hellish refrain my cause it is godly – my mission is plain achieve the goal by any means bloody baby hitmen often don't wear military green the correct kind of politic isn't always what is seems the venom of righteous souls wells up into a scream somehow we've fallen hollow men propagandize – the cautious put up fences the reprobate embezzle from their own then cry to the world defenseless dance the inferno in a hellish refrain camera captured image lies – bloodsmear of truth remains pervert the word 'victim' and history is revised fighting rebels hide behind children – camera crews film soldiers returning fire it belies everything that is decent and sane to justify the destruction of the people and the land how far we've fallen resistance is liberation…statehood a must…occupation is apartheid grandmothers, children, babies in strollers or a bus at pizzerias, hotels, discos, supermarkets, or the mall… our silence in the face of it makes cowards of us all identify with the shahid – legitimize atrocity while the righteous sue for peace - killers dictate policy apologists and assassins play with moral equivalence and we are told to simply call it a sad cycle of violence in a world spinning wildly at a feverish pace just erase all that's human from the human race in a world spinning wildly at a feverish pace erase all that's human from the bloody human race and we are fallen…

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: KEVINOAF
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 07:29 AM

and the british are worse than either side!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 03:03 AM

J-Street Facebook page

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 01:56 AM

For people who would like to get involved...

http://www.jstreet.org/

http://www.jstreet.org/about/about-us

J Street is the political arm of the pro-Israel, pro-peace movement.

J Street was founded to promote meaningful American leadership to end the Arab-Israeli and Palestinian-Israel conflicts peacefully and diplomatically. We support a new direction for American policy in the Middle East and a broad public and policy debate about the U.S. role in the region.

J Street represents Americans, primarily but not exclusively Jewish, who support Israel and its desire for security as the Jewish homeland, as well as the right of the Palestinians to a sovereign state of their own - two states living side-by-side in peace and security. We believe ending the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is in the best interests of Israel, the United States, the Palestinians, and the region as a whole.

J Street supports diplomatic solutions over military ones, including in Iran; multilateral over unilateral approaches to conflict resolution; and dialogue over confrontation with a wide range of countries and actors when conflicts do arise. For more on our policy positions, click here.

J Street will advocate forcefully in the policy process, in Congress, in the media, and in the Jewish community to make sure public officials and community leaders clearly see the depth and breadth of support for our views on Middle East policy among voters and supporters in their states and districts. We seek to complement the work of existing organizations and individuals that share our agenda. In our lobbying and advocacy efforts, we will enlist individual supporters of other efforts as partners.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 01:47 AM

By the way, that's not spin. Almost no fighting occurred in areas that had been allotted to Israel by the UN. However, Israel had already, in the several months prior to its declaration of its independence, ethnically cleansed many thousands of Palestinians from land that had been allotted to the Palestinians by the UN. Israel was already in the process of clearing out and securing for itself, land that had been allotted to the Palestinians by the UN even before it declared its independence.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 01:41 AM

Israel was not attacked around its UN sanctioned borders in 1948. Israel was attempting to take land that had been allocated to the Palestinians, and the armies that have been accused of attacking Israel were, in reality, defending those areas from Israeli encroachment (Jordan, of course, in collusion with Israel to take and divide that land between itself and Israel, which is what was done). Almost all of the fighting took place on land that was allotted to the Palestinians by the UN and not in the area that had been allotted to Israel by the UN. And all of the land that was taken outside of the areas allotted to either side by the UN was taken by Israel from the Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 01:03 AM

"In 1948 tourists from various Arab countries came to welcome Israel as the new kid on the block, and to assure the flourishing of Palestine. These tourists came from Jordan (30,000 of them), Iraq (about 21,000), Egypt (40,000), Syria ( about 12,000) and a few (under 4000) Lebanese. They came in their own tanks and armored vehicles, and airplanes...first class all the way."

Let me be clear here...In 1948 over 100,000 assorted Arab troops from at least 5 Arab countries, invaded Israel and Palestine to assist the Palestinians in destroying the nascent country, Israel, which had been approved by, and recognized by the United Nations.

You may put whatever spin you wish on that invasion, but it occurred, and all of your posturing and dissembling does not change that fact of history. When the dust had settled, Israel had gained some territory, and lost some territory, but the net effect was that it became more contiguous and a bit larger.

None of the Arab countries signed a peace treaty with Israel in 1949; Jordan and Egypt did not give the territory they had taken from the Palestinians in 1949 back to them to create the country of Palestine. And all of your posturing and dissembling doesn't change that fact of history.

Palestine only became an imperitve (other than to Palestinians) in the Arab world after Israel entered the West Bank during the '67 war, and Palestinians wreaked havoc in Jordan and Lebanon in the 1970s. Israel is now expected to make good the Arab betrayal of Palestine. The price for that is peace and recognition from Palestinians and their leaders.

If Palestinians still want a country, and they do, perhaps it is time to stop fighting and work peacefully toward that goal.

As I said a couple of days ago, it will have to be a two state solution, and Jews in the West Bank will of needs become minority citizens in Palestine, just as Arabs are minority citizens in Israel. And Jewish access to Jewish holy places must be guaranteed.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 12:41 AM

Even Hamas has agreed to not oppose the establishment of a Palestinian state using the pre-1967 (internationally recognized) borders if the Palestinian people agree to it. The majority of Palestinian have indicated that they would accept a Palestinian state under those terms.

There's nothing standing in the way of it except Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 10:13 PM

As per the Geneva convention:

"My message to the loathed Jews is that there is no god but Allah [and] we will chase you everywhere! We are a nation that drinks blood, and we know that there is no blood better than the blood of Jews. We will not leave you alone until we have quenched our thirst with your blood, and our children's thirst with your blood. We will not leave until you leave the Muslim countries..."

Is feeding your children the blood of your enemies approved by the Geneva convention?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 10:03 PM

Right. And the assorted Arab 'freedom' fighters are jus' little angels.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 09:53 PM

Nobody tried to take land from Israel that had been granted to it by the UN. Israel was trying to take all of the land that had been granted to both it, as well as the Palestinians. But nobody did anything whatever to take land that was allocated to Israel. So it is totally incorrect to say that it was Arabs who wanted all of it. The only people who tried to take all of it was Israel, and what they didn't succeed in taking then, they are still in the process of taking now.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 09:42 PM

"But nobody tried to take from Israell any of the land that had been allocated to it by the UN."

True, they didn't just want any of it (Israel, that is), they wanted all of it and NO Israel. No big deal.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 09:24 PM

I won't argue that Jordan was not also as guilty of robbing the Palestinians of their state as Israel was up until 1967. But nobody tried to take from Israell any of the land that had been allocated to it by the UN. Rather, it was Israel that was trying to take, with the help of Jordan, the land that was allocated to the Palestinians by the UN. And what other Arab countries have done or not done has no relevance whatever to the question of what the Palestinians have a right to.

I should also mention that it is a violation of the Geneva Conventions for any government to transfer any part of the civilian population of their country into any area that they occupy militarily, as Israel is doing in the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 09:14 PM

Haaretz

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 09:10 PM

In 1948 tourists from various Arab countries came to welcome Israel as the new kid on the block, and to assure the flourishing of Palestine. These tourists came from Jordan (30,000 of them), Iraq (about 21,000), Egypt (40,000), Syria ( about 12,000) and a few (under 4000) Lebanese. They came in their own tanks and armored vehicles, and airplanes...first class all the way.

They came, looked around, fought a bit and left in mid-1949. The Jordanians liked the Palestinian section so well (the West Bank as we call it now) that they 'held' it for Palestinians for 18 years...doing sweet nothing to help their Arab brothers build a country in the land that was supposed to be theirs. Likewise, Egypt in Gaza.

What a wonderful place Palestine might have become if those countries had taken Palestinians under their wings instead of under their boots.

So it really is relevant what other countries chose to do when they controlled the West Bank and Gaza.