BS: Israel Moves in.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 04:09 PM

I'd wholly agree with Joe there about misusing the Holocaust as a way of making a point, or justifying some action. That gets done too often, both by critics of Israel and supporters, as well as in other contexts.

I don't actually think that was actually what was being done there in that comment that has been described as "anti-semitic". But the fact that it elicited the assumption that it was being done is a reminder of how carefully people should tread in this area.

The same goes for unsubtantiated allegations that critics of Israel are expressing "hatred of Jews", which can fall very close to that kind of misuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 03:42 PM

This conflict has to do with a technologically advanced country that has over-reacted to a continued series of daily rocket attacks by Hamas. (The rocket attacks occurred daily for years.) Not one damned person on this or any other thread said they deplored that. You are now saying "He hit me back first." If Hamas gave a shit about the safety and security of its people, it would have halted the attacks. PLEASE, do NOT cover your hatred of Jews by making it out to be a hatred of Israel. I am making this post as a general statement. If the shoe fit . . . .

Subject: Desecrating the Holocaust is racism - don't do it!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 03:36 PM

Whatever the case, I think it's better to avoid comparing anything to the wholesale extermination of Jews by Hitler during the Holocaust. Comparing Jews to Hitler is a particularly insulting and racist thing to do, and yet it has become acceptable conduct among a good number of my fellow liberals who should know better.

I think that liberal Americans are disillusioned by Israel and its conduct toward Palestinians - and rightly so. And many liberals repeatedly make the same mistake Barry made, of blaming Jews in general for the conduct of the Israeli government. Israel was founded on the highest of ideals, and I think many of us grew up in a time when we looked on Israel as a shining star of hope after the horrors of the Holocaust. But since the 1950's, Israel as a nation has used incredibly sophisticated and cruel military tactics and weaponry against people who were far inferior in strength and supplies. I haven't seen systematic extermination that somebody above claims, but it's certainly clear that Israel has persecuted Palestinians and kept them in suffering and poverty throughout the entire history of the nation of Israel. A favored Israeli tactic is to drive unarmed and innocent Palestinians from their homes, and then to destroy those homes with bulldozers - this has been done thousands of times, and it is deplorable. There have been countless incidents of killings of unarmed Palestinians by Israeli soldiers, and Israel has not brought these killings to an end. But still, I don't see evidence of systematic extermination on a scale anywhere comparable to the Holocaust.

For Jews, the Holocaust is a horrible event that is nonetheless sacred and holy. The victims of the Holocaust were totally defenseless and innocent, and were not a political power at all. Jewish people rightly look in this event as sacred, because it was the martyrdom of half of the Jewish people, men and women and children who were completely helpless and innocent. To desecrate the Holocaust by accusing Jews of doing the same thing, is as serious and senseless and outrageous a sacrilege as urinating on a Koran or raping another person's spouse or child.

To desecrate the sacred memory of those who died in the Holocaust, is the ultimate outrage that one can commit against the Jewish people, far more racist and outrageous than desecrating the Torah.

If you think the conduct of the Israeli government has been deplorable for generations, say to - and explain why. I'll most probably agree with you. However, don't resort to comparing anything to the Holocaust.

Don't say it's OK for so-and-so to desecrate the Holocaust because he/she is "half Jewish." Most likely, he or she was not raised in the Jewish tradition, and doesn't understand the seriousness of the offense.

I'm telling you this: desecrating the memory of the Holocaust is the worst act of racism you can commit against a Jew, and the conduct of Israel is no justification for your racism. Israel has done horrible things, but that does not give you justification to desecrate the Holocaust. Whatever the offense of the other party, it is never a justification for us to respond with racism. Even liberals need to know that.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 03:04 PM

The ban on two Arab parties from running in the Israeli election that was discussed earlier in this thread has been overturned by Israel's Supreme Court.

Here is the JTA story received today

***

Supreme Court: Arab parties can run
January 21, 2009

JERUSALEM (JTA) -- Israel's Supreme Court ruled that two Arab parties should not be disqualified from national elections.

On Wednesday, the court overturned the decision of Israel's Central Elections Committee to ban the Balad and United Arab List-Ta'al parties from the Feb. 10 elections.

The nine justices on the court's panel decided unanimously in the case of the United Arab List-Ta'al party and by a majority for Balad, according to Ynet.

The elections panel had disqualified the parties based on petitions claiming that the parties do not recognize Israel as the Jewish homeland and call for armed conflict against Israel. A 500-page appeal was filed Monday.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 02:59 PM

And here is a fuller version of what David Grossman wrote, as printed in Haaretz itself. (And it's admirable that it could be printed there.)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 02:40 PM

"It is very evident indeed that there are many Jews, both in Israel and elsewhere who are opposed to and horrified by the slaughter in Gaza."

And here is one such, Israeli novelist David Grossman, writing in Haaretz, and quoted in today's Independent (London):

"When the guns become completely silent, and the full scope of the killing and destruction becomes known, to the point where even the most self-righteous and sophisticated of the Israeli psyche's defence mechanisms are overcome, perhaps then some kind of lesson will imprint itself on our brain. Perhaps then we will finally understand how deeply and fundamentally wrong our actions in this region have been from time immemorial, how misguided, unethical, unwise and above all, responsible, time after time, for fanning the flames that consume us...

For the rest of what he wrote, and an accompanying article, use the blue clicky. (I don't think we should paste anything here that is longer than a paragraph or so, except on occasions where a link is liable to stop working, or when a publication isn't readily accessible online.)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 01:22 PM

In order for the person in this thread who is being called anti-Semitic to hate Jews, that person would have to hate half of their own family.

There are lots of families where that's the case.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 12:43 PM

"The comment says that all Jews, not even all Israelis, all Jews, are now people Hitler would be proud of."

But it didn't actually say that. The word "all" doesn't appear, and I can'r see any reason to assume that it is imnplied.

It is very evident indeed that there are many Jews, both in Israel and elsewhere who are opposed to and horrified by the slaughter in Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 12:39 PM

In order for the person in this thread who is being called anti-Semitic to hate Jews, that person would have to hate half of their own family.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 12:15 PM

Obviously the "palestinian people", and not Hamas rocket-launchers were intended in my last post. Should be obvious but thought I'd spell it out anyway just in case!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 11:51 AM

McGrath,

The comment says that all Jews, not even all Israelis, all Jews, are now people Hitler would be proud of.

One would have to be very blind not to see that as viciously anti-Semitic.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 11:45 AM

Regarding Obama's speech - "I'd do everything in my power to stop the attacks"

EVERYTHING?

They could try being NICE to them for a change, and trying to help them out. That's within their power, and it's worked in other situations elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 11:11 AM

I can't see how that comment by Barry about how Hitler would be pleased at what's been happening is anti-semitic. If someone hate Jews, they surely want other people to hate them, and that means they welcome it when they behave in a way that tends to make other people hate them.
........................

It's a dirty war, but it's certainly not "ethnic cleansing" or systematic extermination.   Not "systematic extermination" certainly - but the state of Israel as it exists today is founded on ethnic cleansing. That is why the demand for a right of return for exiled Palestinians is seen as incompatible with the right of Israel to exist.

The population of Gaza is overwhelmingly made up of people living in exile from Israel because of their ethnicity.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 10:43 AM

Barry

Point 1: "Israel has just stated (see NPR News) that when they're finished dealing with Hamas they will turn their attention towards Jordan."

Well just looked at NPR News/BBC News/CNN and guess what Baz – absolutely nothing about Israel turning its attention anywhere.

Point 2: - "I thought that they were just done with raining hell on Jordan or was it Lebanon or was it Syria or Egypt or Saudi, (it's lists gets so long it's hard to keep track), when they turned their attention towards the Palestinians?"

Hard to keep track is it Barry? That may well be the case if you have the attention span of a Goldfish. Now let's see what the reality of the situation is:

•        Israel has not rained hell on Jordan since 1967 – 42 years ago Barry.

•        On 12th July, 2006, Hezbollah militants purposely fired rockets at Israeli border towns as a diversion for an anti-tank missile attack on two armored Humvees patrolling the Israeli side of the border fence. Of the seven Israeli soldiers in the two jeeps, two were wounded, three were killed, and two were kidnapped and taken to Lebanon. Five more were killed in a failed Israeli rescue attempt. There then followed a 33 day campaign by Israel to rescue the two men and to push Hezbollah northwards away from the Israeli border so that Israeli towns and villages would be beyond the range of Hezbollah's Iranian supplied missiles. This was the last time Israel rained hell on Lebanon. Previously it had defeated Lebanese forces in 1949, and raided Lebanon in 1978 and 1982. After the 1982 incursion Israeli forces held South Lebanon to prevent Palestinian attacks on Israel but unilaterally withdrew in 2000.

•        Israel has not rained hell on Syria since 1973 – 36 years ago Barry.

•        Israel has never rained hell on the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia Barry.

•        Israel has not rained hell on Egypt since 1973 – 36 years ago Barry.

Now then Barry, are you prepared to look into what Israel has had to contend with since it won and declared its independence in 1948. I somehow doubt that you will, but if you did you would detail an almost continuous catalogue of direct threat and confrontation from its neighbours, who immediately after each defeat continue their aggression by supporting terrorist groups in their attacks on the Israeli civilian population.

One other thing that may come as a bit of a shock to you Barry, going all the way back the Israeli War of Independence, in their battles with the Egyptians, Jordanians, Syrians and Lebanese they have never attacked or targeted civilian centres of population. They have only ever been subject to attack by the IDF in retaliation to attacks mounted from such centres of civilian population by Palestinian Terrorist Groups – Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, Fatah Al-Aqsa Brigades, etc. Had those groups not based their attacks from those locations they would never have been attacked.

Point 3: "I get it, when they done pissing on one people they turn as the wind blows & piss on the next in line."

Read that list up above Barry?
•        Israel lives at peace with Jordan
•        Israel lives at peace with Egypt
•        Israel lives at peace with Syria and is currently engaged in covert talks to resolve their few remaining differences using Turkey as a mediator.
•        Israel lives at peace with Lebanon provided no attacks are launched on Israel from Lebanon.

Now those are ALL of what used to be called the Arab "Frontline States" and apart from Hezbollah in Lebanon, Israel has lived at peace with all of them continuously since at least 1973 (36 years Barry) So where does this continuously "pissing on people in turn" come from – Must be from your own fevered imagination, certainly not from fact.

Point 4: "I think pretty soon they'll have pissed on so many the pissed off nations surrounding Israel will all turn their attention to focus on Israel"

You mean like they did in 1967 Barry? When it was not just the Arab "Frontline States" but the entire Arab world that united to crush Israel and drive its inhabitants into the sea. You should read the rhetoric coming out of the Arab capitols at the time – but I know you won't, or if you do you will glibly dismiss it as "Jest kiddin". That accumulation of force required the unifying influence of the Pan-Arabist Movement, which no longer exists Barry. The only possible uniting force in the Arab world today is Islamic Fundamentalism and fortunately for the world at large and the region in particular the Arab states involved fully realise where the dangers in that movement ultimately lead – their own destruction.

Point 5: "…..all they'll need to know is that Obama won't back Israel if they lead in a war of aggression & that might be the end of Israel."

For that to happen Barry, Barak Obama would have to repeal the bilateral mutual defence treaty that the United States of America has had with Israel from the day that Israel declared itself to be a free independent and democratic nation. If Israel is attacked and appears to be about to go under, the United States of America will defend her – Just start thinking out the consequences for the USA and for Israel if America did not – they are far reaching and absolutely frightening.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 06:54 AM

To Joe
You are wrong to claim that
"it is now proper ideology to be anti Israel and to extend that attitude to all Jews".

There are many Jewish people across the world [including in Israel ] who are opposed to the attacks on the Palestinian people.They have been warmly welcomed by those who are opposed to the oppression of Palestinians in Gaza,the West Bank and in East Jerusalem.

These Jewish anti Zionists include religious and secular Jews.

I am thinking of those young Israelis who have refused to serve in Gaza and the organisation "Jews For Justice For Palestine". Or again someone like the late Tony Cliff [ founder of the Socialist Workers Party in the UK ] who was born into a Zionist family in Palestine, but as a teenager became a staunch defender of Palestinian rights.

The root cause of the conflict has been the wholesale theft of Palestinan land and the exiling of hundreds of thousands of Palestinans and their descendents who have been barred from returning to their homeland.

As one Palestinian MK said in the Israeli Knesset [parliament ] last week ,and I paraphrase, it is galling to be told by the son of an [Israeli ] immigrant to get out of the country when my forefathers have lived on this land for many generations.

Joe, you are wrong to say that there has been no ethnic cleansing. The Palestinans call the events of 1948 "The Nakba" or the catastrophe and it came about because of the massacres or threats of massacres at places like Deir Yassin and Tantura.

Yitzhak Rabin,later prime minister of Israel, was in charge of military operations in the towns of Ramla and Lydd in July 1948 .He estimated that his troops drove around 50000 Palestinians from the area, forcing them to march to the West Bank without food or water.
The United Nations General Assembly passed a resolution calling on Israel to allow the refugees to return 60 years later they and their descendents are still waiting.

Of course there are two sides to the conflict.

But if anyone were to visit Israel they would find it very difficult to go to the West Bank or Gaza because of Israeli
lockdowns ,roadblocks etc.

The Israelis are NOT nazis or fascists and it would be a profound mistake to claim they are. It is a mistake the right wing Zionists would be quick to exploit!

However, Israel bears a remarkable resemblance to a colonial settler
society characterised by periodic genocidal outbursts aginst the Palestinians.

The nazis sought to exterminate their enemies on an industrial scale ;the Israelis seek their "transfer" [what a polite word ] from Israeli territory.

However, the Israeli leaders have commited war horrific crimes in Gaza just as their predecessors did in Beirut in 1982 and again in Lebanon two years ago. They to answer for their crimes in an international court of law.How else are their victims to receive justice?

Until the problem of the Palestinian diaspora is addressed I cannot see an end to the conflict or the carnage.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 06:51 AM

It is when people like Barry Finn paint all Jews as responsible for what Israel does, or when they hold "Israelis as Jews" to a different standard than any other country, that they expose themselves as anti-Semites.

That Barry Finn's hateful statement, "Hitler would be amused at how the Jews he couldn't kill have turned in todays world, he would be very proud of them & how they are so much alike," was posted to Mudcat on the same same day we witnessed the history of Barack Obama's inspirational inauguration sickens me.

As a Jew, as someone who lost relatives in the Holocaust, I take this kind of attack very personally. It goes way beyond the pale of any kind of civilized discourse on the issue of whether Israel was right or wrong in the way it fought the war with Hamas.

I stand with the Barack Obama, not with the Barry Finns of this world.

Here is a transcript of what Barack Obama had to say about the situation Israel faced with Gaza/Hamas when he visited there in July. Less than two weeks ago, in an interview with George Stephanopolous on ABC, the incoming president stood by the statements.

I don't think any country would find it acceptable to have missiles raining down on the heads of their citizens.

The first job of any nation state is to protect its citizens. And so I can assure you that if -- I don't even care if I was a politician. If somebody was sending rockets into my house where my two daughters sleep at night, I'm going to do everything in my power to stop that. And I would expect Israelis to do the same thing.

In terms of negotiations with Hamas, it is very hard to negotiate with a group that is not representative of a nation state, does not recognize your right to exist, has consistently used terror as a weapon, and is deeply influenced by other countries. I think that Hamas leadership will have to make a decision at some point as to whether it is a serious political party seeking to represent the aspirations of the Palestinian people. And, as a consequence, willing to recognize Israel's right to exist and renounce violence as a tool to achieve its aims. Or whether it wants to continue to operate as a terrorist organization. Until that point, it's hard for Israel, I think, to negotiate with a country that -- or with a group that doesn't recognize Israel's right to exist at a country -- OK.

Thank you very much, everybody. I appreciate it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 04:28 AM

I dunno, Barry. I realize that is is now proper liberal ideology to be anti-Israeli and to extend that attitude to all Jews. The conditions of the Palestinians are certainly deplorable, and I met a number of Israelis who had anti-Palestinian attitudes that I felt were deplorable.

However, there have been atrocities on both sides, and innocent people killed on both sides. They've been fighting a dirty war for generations, and both sides have blood on their hands.

I think, however, that it's a very low blow to compare the Israeli tactics to the Holocaust of World War II. It's a dirty war, but it's certainly not "ethnic cleansing" or systematic extermination. If you visited Israel, I think you'd find that there are two sides to the issue - and BOTH sides are wrong.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 01:59 AM

"Israel is not going to go away and ultimately the people who live in that region are going to have to learn to co-exist. Over the last 60 years Israel has shown and proved that that is its intent (Egypt; Jordan; Syria - all former enemies)".

So says Teribus.
Well Israel has just stated (see NPR News) that when they're finished dealing with Hamas they will turn their attention towards Jordan. I thought that they were just done with raining hell on Jordan or was it Lebenon or was it Syria or Egypt or Saudi, (it's lists gets so long it's hard to keep track), when they turned their attention towards the Palestinians?
I get it, when they done pissing on one people they turn as the wind blows & piss on the next in line. I think pretty soon they'll have pissed on so many the the pissed off nations surrounding Israel will all turn their attention to focus on Israel, all they'll need to know is that Obama won't back Israel if they lead in a war of aggression & that might be the end of Israel. You could say that they rained hell on everyone around them & there was none left so they had to piss on themselves, they've been pissing into the wind for a while now & soon the winds of change will turn & all they'll be doing is pissing into the wind. Like a dog that shits where it eats, their stink will haunt them.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 12:55 AM

"Since 2005 Gaza has been blockaded and starved of basic human needs."

It most certainly has not, the only times that border crossings have been closed by Israel has been in response to attacks on Israel launched from inside the Gaza strip, i.e. territory under the control of the Palestinians.

No attacks = Open crossings = Peace and prosperity for all in the region.

Israel is not going to go away and ultimately the people who live in that region are going to have to learn to co-exist. Over the last 60 years Israel has shown and proved that that is its intent (Egypt; Jordan; Syria - all former enemies). Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Hezbollah on the other hand have no interest in peace as long as Israel exists.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 07:53 PM

""Since August 2005 no part of Gaza has been occupied.

What on earth makes you think that Hamas in Gaza is fighting for a Free Palestine??""


Correct! Since 2005 Gaza has been blockaded and starved of basic human needs.

It would possibly have been better for the people of Gaza, to have been occupied?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 07:26 PM

"The issue is the right of exiles to return home, and that is something that shouldn't be qualified by whether they are Jews or Christians or Moslems or none of the above." - MGOH

You'll have trouble selling that to the Arabs Kevin.

The pity is that so far as I am aware no effort being made by Israel or anyone else to support the right of exiled Jews from historic Jewish communities elsewhere in the Middle East to have the right to return home.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 06:21 PM

I don't know, Mitchell has some success in Ireland, didn't he?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 06:06 PM

Well, well, well...

Word on the street is that President Obama is going to appoint former Maine Senator, George Mitchell, as his special envoy to the Middle East...

Ya'll remember him??? You knowm the "Mitchell Plan" which was very close to the "Saudi Proposal" that the Bush folks refused to consider as a workable framework for peace in the region??? Yep, same guy...

My, my, my...

Maybe now that the Bushites have completely screwed things up with their arrogance that Obama agrees with me that these proposals that very well would have changed this mess are still workable...

Nice to get some vindication...

Go George Mitchell!!!

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 06:03 PM

Yes all well and good Guest ifor apart from the following:

If the Arabs in Gaza have the right to defend themselves when attacked then so do the Jews in Israel.

Since August 2005 no part of Gaza has been occupied.

What on earth makes you think that Hamas in Gaza is fighting for a Free Palestine??

The Jews have withstood attacks and threats of annihilation for 89 years now and have withstood them all. Between 1920 and 1936 they mistakenly put their trust in the British to protect them. Between 1936 and 1945 they learned to protect themselves, learned to rely on their own defence, and assisted the British in crushing the pro-Nazi Arab Revolt. Between 1945 and 1947 they retaliated in kind when attacked by Arabs and the British alike.

When in 1947 the UN proposed a two state solution, the Jews agreed and the Arabs rejected the offer. In the war of independence that followed the Arabs were defeated. The UN brokered a cease-fire, the terms of which the Israelis complied with and the Arabs did not. Out of the former mandated Palestine the Egyptians captured and retained Gaza and the Jordanians took the West Bank.

In 1956 they fought again and the Arabs lost again. Another UN brokered cease-fire the terms of which the Israelis complied with while the Arabs did not.

In 1967 the entire Arab world openly threatened Israel with annihilation and positioned five armies on Israel's borders having thrown the UN peace-keepers out of Sinai. Israel mounted a pre-emptive strike that knocked out the Arab Air Forces of Egypt, Jordan and Syria. Over the next six days those armies were routed and for the first time Israel invaded neighbouring territories and occupied them. When the UN brokered the cease-fire this time Israel was adamant, the only way land will be returned is through bilateral agreements whereby Israel obtains recognition and peace treaties are signed.

In 1973 the Arabs struck again, in the Sinai from Egypt and on the Golan Heights from Syria, on the Jewish Festival of Yom Kippur. The Jordanians and the Lebanese sensibly stayed out of it. After some initial reverses the IDF regained the initiative and repelled the assault. Had they wished they could have destroyed Damascus and completely annihilated the Egyptian Armies trapped in Sinai and in Egypt around Port Said. Yet another UN brokered cease-fire. This time two bilateral deals based on return of land-for-peace were reached with Egypt and with Jordan. Those deals have held good to this day. A similar deal with Syria has always been tantalisingly close, but never quite there. Talks are still going on with Turkey as the mediator.

Now the Egyptians held part of the old Palestine called Gaza, and the Jordanians held the part of the old Palestine mandate called the West Bank and instead of just giving those to the "Palestinians", the Palestinian's Arab friends shut them up in camps and kept them in poverty. Assad's Syria, Saddam Hussein's Iraq and Khomeni's Iran became the backers of the Palestinian cause and kept the pot boiling with attacks on the civilian population of Israel. However the Israelis fought back.

If the Arabs stop fighting there will be peace tomorrow

If the Israelis stop fighting they will be annihilated tomorrow

You cannot negotiate with any group that has sworn to destroy you.

Another obvious truth is this - The Palestinian Arabs need Israel and the Jews to survive, they will get absolutely nothing from any of their Arab neighbours, because those neighbours have got nothing that could sustain and make economically viable a Palestinian State - Israel on the other hand has got something to offer, but it is not going to obtained at the point of a gun or by threats of violence.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 05:04 PM

To Teribus
Israel is a brutal colonial occupying power which has spent the past sixty years oppressing and killing Palestinians.

Of course the Palestinians have the right to resist that military oppression and the occupying power.

In Paris in 1938 a Jewish student walked into the German embassy in Paris and shot dead a diplomat in protest at the imprisonment and murder of Jewish Germans at the hands of Hitler.His tactic may have been wrong but i would never condemn his actions !

In the war, the resistance in France and across Europe organised at enormous risk to oppose the nazi invaders.
In Vietnam, Ageria, and many other countries whole populations have resisted their colonial masters often with armed force.

In Palestinine much of this resistance has seen young children take on Israeli tanks,unarmed international observers face down enormous armoured bulldozers demolishing Palestinian houses, and Palestinian villagers and pro peace Israeli supporters getting shot by the IDF whilst protesting against that giant Apartheid Wall on Palestinian land.

Even during the current slaughter in Gaza hundreds of Palestinian Israelis and Jewish anti war Israelis were imprisoned for peacefully opposing the war in Israel.

The resistance in Gaza has every right to oppose the invaders with their killing machines.As a previous writer has said most of the killing was done by young soldiers and airmen who were far removed from their young victims...as if they were actors in some appalling video game.

Reporters in Gaza have found examples of the most appalling racist and jingoistic graffitti on walls left by the departing Israeli soldiers along with their excrement.

Of course the Palestinians have the right to resist!The Israelis have the guns,the bombs,the missiles,the chemical weapons and the tanks but they are finding it harder to win the wars and impossible to win the peace!
Free Palestine!
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 04:28 PM

"Hitler would be amused at how the Jews he couldn't kill have turned in todays world, he would be very proud of them & how they are so much alike."

C. Ham
"No matter how one feels about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, that statement is anti-Semitic hate-mongering."

You may feel that way C. Ham, I couldn't give a dam.
It's a comparsion of two acting in such a way that one can't tell one from the other. It's worst though when one has been the victim & turns out to later be the one that inflicts the same destruction on an other that was inflicted on them. I would therefore say that the people of Israel have the history to know better & it's they who should "never forget" lest they become what it was whom they saw as a monster. They are now the modern monster. Of course they are not the only monster pushing their aggenda today.

To think that anyone could give a reason or excuse to what Israel has done to the people of Palestinian is the same as giving excuse to what we (the USA) did to the Iraqi people. There is no excuse, there were other bloodless wsya of pushing one's aggenda. Of course when that aggenda is expansion & land grabbing & the oppression of a people any old excuse will do, aye????

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 03:33 PM

BBruce, now you're off on another tangent. Have I said Israel has no right to exist? And what does a right to exist mean? Human beings have a right to life, that I take for granted, even further than many people, as I count all the way back to conception. Do nations have a right to exist? That's an interesting philosophical question as it tries morally to equate nationhood with personhood which is altogether different. The former is a political construct of recent times, the latter a unique sentient human being which I won't even attempt to define here beyond that point or I'll get into another long ramble.

We generally accept the inviolability of sovereignty (well apart from Iraq let's say, irony intended) and that nations have a kind of civil right to pursue their course un-interfered with by outside influence or attack. In practice it rarely happens though I personally accept democratic nationhood to be a fair and just model of how things should be.

But a separate question is whether states that turn 'rogue' should be allowed to carry on their course without outside interference and whether states that are fundamentally flawed at heart should automatically have some kind of right to be whatever kind of state they wish, no matter how depraved.

By way of example we could think of Apartheid South Africa or Mugabe's Zimbabwe. The general principle has been to respect these nations' sovereignty and to apply pressure diplomatically and / or through economic sanctions. Under international laws and conventions as they stand regime-changing invasions have generally been frowned upon until the Bush camp decided literally to take the law into their own hands or disregard it altogether. The problem with this approach is obviously where do you stop? Zimbabwe would be a ripe candidate and a case could even be argued for invading Israel. But who would get to decide these things and how would we ensure it would be free of the stench of politicking and only enacted from noble humanitarianism?

No one has tried to argue that South Africa or Zimbabwe as states 'should not exist' but that's not the same as saying they should be allowed to continue as apartheid regimes or dictatorships without hindrance or comment.

I don't think anyone (and Lord help me if I'm wrong, rolling my eyes) here has suggested Israel should be 'destroyed' or the people who live there slaughtered, which seems to be what you're suggesting with your 'right to exist' phrase.

I hope this goes some way to answering your question.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 02:55 PM

Hitler would be amused at how the Jews he couldn't kill have turned in todays world, he would be very proud of them & how they are so much alike.

No matter how one feels about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, that statement is anti-Semitic hate-mongering.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 02:39 PM

Is "Stop The War coalition" going to insist on the leadership of Hamas being tried for "war crimes" HUGO - The deliberate targeting of civilian centres of population is "illegal" and Hamas have been engaged in this activity from inside Gaza since 2002.

Or doesn't that count?

Is "Stop The War coalition" going to insist on the leadership of Hamas being tried for "war crimes" HUGO - The deliberate placing of combat troops and offensive military equipment and the conduct of military operations from within civilian centres of population is "illegal" and Hamas have been engaged in this activity from inside Gaza since 2002.

Or doesn't that count?

Is "Stop The War coalition" going to insist on the leadership of Hamas being tried for "war crimes" HUGO - Threatening prisoners lives in demand for concessions "illegal" and Hamas have been engaged in this activity with respect to the kidnap of IDF Corporal Gilad Shalit.

Or doesn't that count?

If Hamas as the elected government of the population of Gaza, determine to attack a neighbouring state, a state internationally recognised under the terms of the United Nations Charter, then they, the government of Gaza and the population of Gaza that elected them, must fully expect that that country is perfectly entitled to defend itself.

1. Stop attacking Israel and recognise its right to exist
2. Stop killing Israeli citizens and threatening to kill Israeli citizens

And there will be NO MORE KILLING. Now once the Palestinian Arabs get that into their fat heads the better for all concerned - especially them, because they seem to pick up the tab for Hamas every bloody time. The only thing proved so far is that the Palestinians must be on one hell of a slow learning curve - I note that over the past 34-35 days Hezbollah up there in southern Lebanon got the message in August 2006.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 01:36 PM

Nickhere,

So where are the cries that Russia has no right to exist? I hear that about Israel, and you seem to state that Russia has done worse.

So what about it? This seems to me like Russia gets a pass by those here that say Israel has given up the right to exiost by it's actions.


How else should I interpret this????

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 01:27 PM

""yet when Israel shells Hamas morters placed BY HAMAS amoung civilians there are cries of protest?""

And who gave you the information that Hamas had a mortar among those civilians?

The Israelis? Oh well that's OK, because THEY woudn't LIE, would they?

And of course they have excluded all the journalists who just MIGHT have given a truthful account.

BBruce, you seem to think that he who posts the most, and longest, cut 'n pastes will have truth on his side.

No mate, it don't work like that. People just get bored and stop reading your crap.

Proof needs to be produced, and I don't mean Israeli military propaganda, or Fox News.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 01:22 PM

BTW, for another real world-class case of army brutality you could do worse than check out how the Russian army has been acting in Chechnya. Civilians have literally had their heads blown off by soldiers who strapped dynamite to them, and the rest isn't fit to print here. So, no, I'm not accusing ONLY the Israeli army of brutality. As I said, things haven't changed much in the last 60 years all over the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Hugo
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 01:17 PM

To Teribus
The reason why the Stop The War Coalition is calling for Israeli leaders to be investigated for war crimes is because the IDF has been waging war on the civilian population of Gaza.Perhaps you haven't noticed but one of the most poweful armies in the world,armed with the latest weaponry and military hardaware has been bombing,shelling and shooting innocent women and children in very large numbers.And the use of phospherous bombs in overcrowded urban areas against a civilian population is illegal.

The statistics show this to be true.Over 1300 dead ,the vast majority civilian with hundreds of children killed by bullets ,blast and shrapnel.Some 5000 terribly maimed and around a million terrorised.
In contrast the Israeli casualties have been reported as 13 dead of whom 10 are military.

The mainstream news teams are now inside Gaza in growing numbers and they are reporting terrible scenes and crimes of the shooting dead of women and children huddling in houses, more bodies being pulled out of the flattened buildings and phospherous wounds which cannot easily be treated. The Observer reported the massacre of civilians in a Gaza village of Khurrza which left over a dozen dead .This massacre is only one of many killings committed by a supposedly proffesional army.

Come on now Teribus !
What are we to do with the slaughters? Give them medals? No,let's give them a trial which is more than they give their victims...the babies,toddlers and kids killed in their
houses,playgrounds,schools and shelters.
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 01:12 PM

+BBruce Not much speculating with 'what ifs' when it comes to history, but would millions of lives have been saved if Britain had surrendered to Hitler?

Hitler would have carried out a much larger program of genocide - he also intended to wipe out Poles and Russians as far as he could, so we'd have to balance the loss of those populations against the 60 million or so who died during the course of the war.

But the Third Reich would probably have run out of steam after a while, just how long is anyone's guess. It was a personality-led creation (based on the cult of Hitler) and it is doubtful if it would have maintained its impetus much past his demise. Even the Soviet Union which was far less based on a single personality hardly survived a century despite the huge upheaval that accompanied its arrival on the world stage. Plus the circumstances that gave rise to the Third Reich would in time have been forgotten and German's less 'patriotic' about its origins.

But in any case I'm glad Hitler was defeated when he was, we Irish were on his list of 'inferior' people too, people who couldn't be assimilated easily.

But would he world have seen any less slaughter? Over 100 million people have died in about 100 or more 'small and medium wars' (eg, not big world wars) since 1945. I don't see that armies behave any less brutally when they think they can get away with it, whatever flag flies on their sleeve. War brutalizes those who participate in it unless they are lucky enough to be so revolted by it that they turn the opposite way, as happens at times.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 01:03 PM

BBruce - I'm not sure who your last post is addressed to, but as it contains references to 'peace plan' 'viable' and "Jerusalem' I'm assuming cautiously that it's at least partly addressed to me.

1) Something special could be worked out for Jerusalem - maybe a bit like Berlin in times gone by. Afterall three major religions all claim it with some justification as their own, so it'd be reasonabel for them to share it. The devil must really enjoy the irony of the City of God being the scene of so much conflict and suffering. Afterall it is just a few square km of land, even if it has powerful emotional attraction for above mentioned groups.

2) "If Israel wanted to.... 1 million...etc.," Even Hitler didn't kill all the Jews - there were still several million of them left after WW2. I still hold that what Hitler presided over was a genocide. You seem to overlook that the Final Solution was the last phase of a long period of attrition that began with making life as uncomfortable as possible for Jews until they felt compelled to leave (along with communists and other dissidents). Once the Nazis felt comfortable enough that they could get away with that, they kept pushing the boundaries until it ended in diabolical and wholesale slaughter. That's the way these things usually work. I don't see any big difference these days, apart from cases where 'civilization' has already broken down and we skip straight to the slaughter without any 'legal niceties' entres.

3) perhaps you missed my post on Russia / Ossetia, I did protest about that, for all the good it did. No Jews involved in either side of that dispute as far as I know.

4) I'd appreciate it if you stopped trying to insinuate that I, or anyone else who disagrees with your take on this, does so out of a basis of anti-semitism / racism. In any case you would also be implying that by rooting for the Israeli cause you are a racist and the object of your racist hate are Arabs, palestinians in particular. I take it for granted that you are not some kind of paranoid racist but someone who wants to see a peaceful solution to what's going on. Likewise, it'd be nice if you stopped assuming all other voices are anti-semitic.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 01:02 PM

Riginslinger quoted the following passage from one of BB's posts and then asked a question:

"WHy didn't Great Britain just surrender to Hitler in WW II? THAT would have saved a number of lives, and stopped the war, as well."

                I wonder what the world would be today if they had?"

I think the following covers it fairly well:

"Hitler knows that he will have to break us in this Island or lose the war. If we can stand up to him, all Europe may be free and the life of the world may move forward into broad, sunlit uplands. But if we fail, then the whole world, including the United States, including all that we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new Dark Age made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights of perverted science." - The Rt Hon. Winston Churchill, House of Commons, 18th June, 1940.

Oh Guest HUGO, I note that the "Stop The War Coalition" only demand that alleged Israeli "war crimes" have to be investigated.

Barry Finn – UEC – Usual Emotive Crap – 4000 homes and 50,000 homeless out of a population of 1,500,000 is translated into, "Gaza's infastructure is in complete & total ruin, it is a wasteland". Hardly Baz, I am sure the damage could have been one hell of a lot worse if the IDF had been intent on the wholesale slaughter of the population of Gaza.

"So now Israel pulls out, because there's nothing left worth conquering" – I don't believe that "conquering" anything was ever on the Israeli agenda. Hopefully now the "elected Government" of the people of Gaza will have enough to occupy themselves with doing something quite unique for them – actually providing for the Palestinian people – rather than progress Iran's proxy war with Israel.

Oh and 600-Up.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 01:02 PM

Negotiate with Hamas – Object Lesson

The Kidnapping of Gilad Shalit
Early on Sunday morning, 25th June 2006, Shalit was captured by Palestinian militants who attacked an Israeli army post on the Israeli side of the southern Gaza Strip border after having crossed through an underground tunnel near the Kerem Shalom border crossing. During the morning attack, two Palestinian militants as well as two IDF soldiers were killed and three others wounded, aside from Shalit, who himself suffered a broken left hand and a light shoulder wound.

Hamas Demand No. 1
Shalit's captors issued a statement on Monday, 26th June 2006, offering information on Shalit if Israel agreed to release all female Palestinian prisoners and all Palestinian prisoners under the age of 18.
Hamas Demand No. 2
On 1st July, Shalit's Palestinian captors issued another demand to the Israelis, asking them to free 1,000 Palestinian prisoners (in addition to all women and young prisoners as previously demanded) and to end Israel's incursion into Gaza (Efforts to locate and rescue Shalit).
Hamas Demand No. 3
On 3rd July, the captors issued a 24-hour ultimatum for meeting their demands, threatening unspecified consequences if Israel refused to release the prisoners as demanded (Which demand, I mean, you'd have to move quick to keep up wouldn't you?).

Hamas Offer No. 1
On 4th January 2007, Hamas offered to give Israel a videotape proving that Shalit is still alive if Israel released all Palestinian women and children from Israeli prisons. Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert rejected Hamas's proposal. Shalit's father, Noam Shalit, seemed to agree with the government's response, stating on 7 January, "I want my son back, not a video or a letter."

Hamas Demand No. 4
On 7th April 2007, It was reported that the captors of Gilad Shalit have transferred to Israel, via Egyptian mediators, a list of Palestinian prisoners they want freed. The list includes approximately 1300 names some of which are high ranking Fatah members.

Hamas Demand No. 5
On 12th August 2008, Hamas noted that they are suspending talks on Shalit's release demanding a complete lifting of the Israeli siege.

Hamas Statements relating to Gilad Shalit
Statement 1:
On 9th January 2007, Abu Mujahed, a spokesman for the captors, asserted that Shalit "has not been harmed at all," going on to say, "He is being treated in accordance with Islamic values regulating the treatment of prisoners of war."

Statement 2:
On 11th January, 2009, Abu Marzuk, Deputy Chief of the Hamas Political Ministry, told the London-based Arabic daily Al-Hayat that:
"Shalit may have been wounded, and he may not have been. The subject no longer interests us. We are not interested in his well-being at all, and we are not giving him any special guard since he is as good as a cat or less".

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 10:51 AM

UN chief condemns rocket attacks on Israel
AP - Tuesday, January 20, 2009 10:18:08 AM

AP U.N. chief Ban Ki-moon says Palestinian rocket attacks on southern Israel are appalling and unacceptable.

During a trip to the rocket-scarred Israeli town of Sderot, Ban said the projectiles are indiscriminate weapons, and Hamas attacks are violations of basic humanitarian law.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,HUGO
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 10:35 AM

The Stop The War Coalition has called for a big demonstaration in central London this saturday.

It will be calling for :

An end to the blockade of Gaza
The bringing to justice of the war criminals in the Israeli leadership who gave the orders for the mass murder of civilians in Gaza.
And a Free Palestine!

Hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 08:29 AM

"WHy didn't Great Britain just surrender to Hitler in WW II? THAT would have saved a number of lives, and stopped the war, as well."

                I wonder what the world would be today if they had?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 06:45 AM

After the ARAB control of Jeruselam from 1948 until 1967, ANY peace plan that left the city in Arab hands was not viable. WHy didn't Great Britain just surrender to Hitler in WW II? THAT would have saved a number of lives, and stopped the war, as well.


If Israel wanted to eliminate the population of Gaza, the number of dead would be in excess of a million. ANY statment that the Israeli intention was to do so had best address that fact, or be ignored as a blatant lie.



I wonder how many Georgians were killed by the Russians in the recent "disagreement ", and why noone here ever declared that Russia did not have the right to exist?
Weren't they a lot more powerful, and was not the Russian attack deemed to be "excessive" by the UN?





Oh, yeah- they are not Jews.


No need to comment about it, then. Perfectly acceptable, since the Georgians actually shelled South Osnia ( sort of like the Hamas rockets) and Russia pounded Georgia into the ground, and let the South Osnians ethnically cleanse all the Georgians from the region. THAT is acceptable.


It's when Israelis defend themselves, AFTER asking for the rockets to stop ( and getting only more rockets against civilians, with no outcry from the people wringing their hands over Israeli attacks, that the world has to step in and consider attacks on military targets ( that are illegally located in civilian areas) to be criminal. As long as they are by Israelis, anyway.


Got to keep those Jews under control, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 02:12 AM

There are now UN calls for investigations that Israel has commited War Crimes & Amnesty International says that it has evidence to that fact. Gaza's infastructure is in complete & total ruin, it is a wasteland, food & water is very scarce as well as medical supplies & treatment. "ONE THIRD" of the dead are children, how many of the rest were woman & how many were civilians? So now Israel pulls out, because there's nothing left worth conquering & there's nothing in Gaza now worth saving. The US says that to rebuild will cost Billions. The money won't be coming from Israel or anywhere else in this world economy of today. So Israel has laid waste to a people, a population & an area now not worth resettling.
Hitler would be amused at how the Jews he couldn't kill have turned in todays world, he would be very proud of them & how they are so much alike. Israel should design a new flag & paste SS on it as it's background. This was ethnic cleaZZing, nothing less & all done with religious zeal!

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 01:48 AM

"The issue is the right of exiles to return home, and that is something that shouldn't be qualified by whether they are Jews or Christians or Moslems or none of the above." - MGOH

You'll have trouble selling that to the Arabs Kevin.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 07:33 PM

Just to remind us what we're talking about here (and this doesn't come from the Guardian, bruce, it's from The Times, which no one has ever accused of being "left-wing"): Blind and burnt: Mahmoud, 14, young victim of banned white phosphorus shelling

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 07:10 PM

Well, I don't know how the figures in 1948 compare with the figures at various earlier dates - maybe they are higher, maybe they are lower. I think it'd be quite complicated to get those figures for the West Bank as such. If someone can get them together, fine.

But the actual figures aren't actually the issue. The issue is the right of exiles to return home, and that is something that shouldn't be qualified by whether they are Jews or Christians or Moslems or none of the above.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 07:01 PM

To Teribus

As you probably know the Egyptian ruler Mubharak rules only through the support of an army of internal security forces and secret police.Torture is commonplace ! A bit like Israel in that sense.

He gets his funding from the USA and without that financial and military support he would not last a year.

He has agreed with the Israeli leadership that the border be sealed and wasn't a wonderful sight last year when Palestinian engineers opened the fence and Palestinians streamed out to buy much needed supplies.Don't you agree?

Actually, many people believe that the freedom of the Palestinian people lies through Cairo and the Israeli leadership is going to have to be careful that it doesn't step over the mark and inflame the "Egyptian street" so much that the hated Mubharak is toppled!It could yet happen!

I read in one report that Egyptian children and a few adults were injured by Israeli shrapnel flying out of Gaza and also that Israeli warplanes flew over Egypt after their bombing runs which shows two things to me
1 The spinelessness of Mubharak and
2 Some connivance with the Israelis against the Palestinians.

He hasn't done his reputation much good inside or outside Egypt!
But do also remember that Gaza has links to the rest of the occupied territories and residents have been unable to visit family and friends for years...another form of emotional torture for the Palestinians.Gaza is still an occupied territory while Israel controls , threatens and invades its land ,sea and air borders.

Today the BBC News reported that some 50000 Gazans have been made homeless because of the Israeli bombing and 400000 have no clean water.How long before typhoid ,cholera and diptheria break out?


On top of that there are thousands of seriously wounded civilians in need of ongoing medical treatment and the health care system in Gaza has been almost destroyed with hospitals,clinics and civic buildings damaged or destroyed.

Israel has waged a form of collective punishment against the residents and its main victims are the children who are malnourished and traumatised and the sick and elderly.

These are war crimes! And I hope that this Israeli leadership is held accountable for its actions in an international court of law.
It must explain how the bombing of apartment blocks and schools packed with refugees is a legitimate war tactic.

Israel is not going to easily escape these crimes....the computer is a powerful tool and there were enough journalists and cameras in Gaza to record the atrocities!

ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 06:58 PM

Let's be fair here. A number of people rooting for Israel have made a similar point, I'll quote Robomatic simply by way of example:

"Israel attempted numerous times to arrive at a peace settlement with its neighbors who were states and with the Palestinians, starting right after the 1967 war. Most recently a prolonged effort was made with Yasir Arafat as the leader of both the Gazans and the West Bank, the Prime Minister of Israel, and President Clinton. These negotiations did not bear fruit primarilly because of Arafat. As has been said, "The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity."

One of the most recent major opportunities for peace was the offer made in 2002 in Beruit by the 22 members of Arab League, a group representing practically every Arab country in the region including the Palestinian authority. In return Israel had simply to agree to accept - not its 1948 - but its 1967 borders (which would still have represented an expansion on the original UN-mandated Jewish Homeland). This would have resulted in 'normalization of relations' such as happened with Egypt or Jordan. Isn't this what Israel always laments that it wants? So what happened?

Israel rejected this offer because it hasn't finished its expansion plans yet, which includes all the West Bank, Jerusalem and probably in time, Gaza as well, though given the barren clump of land it consists of it's less of a priority than the West Bank.

Similarly Israel rejected an offer of peace in return for abiding by the 2004 International Court of Justice ruling that its settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem are illegal (and withdraw). True, its not a signatory but nonetheless what the court - representing international legal opinion - decided was offered as another basis for peace by Arabs.

Well unfortunately you can't have it both ways, Israel said 'no deal' and everyone went back to war, sort of. Perhaps Iran is supplying weapons to Hamas and Hizbullah, maybe Syria is tied up in something, Israel is definitely dropping bombs and so on, Hamas and / or one of the other splinter groups are firing rockets.

It is my opinion that Israel recklessly squandered those (whatever happened squillions of billions of years ago) possibly not-to-be repeated chances for real lasting peace because it is greedy for land. I'm sorry but fair is fair. You cannot lay all the blame on the Arabs for what's been going on. Indeed some people have pointed out that the Israeli townships near the border with Gaza (Ashkelon etc.,) are in fact on land owned by palestinians and not actually in Israel at all. Though this can be disputed endlessly both ways the root causes are undeniable.

Israel's goals are incompatible - it wants the land of other people by force but says it also wants peace at the same time. Indeed the one clear implication of its goals is that in fact it is Palestinian Gaza and the West Bank that will be 'wiped off the map' ceasing to be delineated as borders on the world map, but annexed as part of Israel. Pro-Israeli supporters at this NY rally admitted as much -


"Right in front of the stage, a man held a banner reading, "Islam Is A Death Cult." Rally attendees described the people of Gaza to me as a "cancer," called for Israel to "wipe them all out," insisting, "They are forcing us to kill their children in order to defend our own children." A young woman told me, "Those who die are suffering God's wrath." "They are not distinguishing between civilians and military, so why should we?" said a member of the group of messianic Orthodox Jewish Chabad-Lubavitch group that flocked to the rally"

(You'll need to register with the news provider to read the whole article which is why I pasted a short extract here)

Link:

Calls to 'wipe out' Palestinians at pro-Israel rally


Had it accepted either one of the peace deals above offered by the Arab League, Hamas would probably never have been elected to power and it's equally unlikely we'd be seeing what's going on in Gaza now.

I think another question that has been posed remains unanswered "what rights do Palestinians living under Israeli occupation have?"

Someone tried to deflect it by turning the answer into another, spurious question about what rights Israelis have living under Palestinian occupation. I'd be interested to know which Israelis are living under Palestinian 'occupation'.

If peace is ever obtained there (and by now it's in ALL our interests that that happens) it won't be done by military force, except through genocide. Never mind Hamas or Israeli war hawks. Is anyone here willing to pay that price?

I'm not.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 05:17 PM

PS For Guest ifor:

The Israelis control two of the three land borders that Gza has. Can you tell us who controls the third one? You know the border between Gaza and Egypt. Why have the Egyptians closed that border Guest ifor?? Surely the Palestinians in Gaza could get everything they needed through Egypt.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 05:14 PM

OoooH Kevin, how sneaky of you.

The question was - "Tell me again about the Jewish settlements PRIOR to 1948 on the West Bank.... "

NOT - "the total numbers for people living in West Bank settlements IN 1948"

Now if a simple sailor like me can pick that up I'm sure lots of people reading this can too. Take it all the way back to 1920, take a look at Hebron in 1929, those Jews had lived in this predominantly Jewish town for over 800 years as far back as records go.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 04:23 PM

http://www.unitedjerusalem.com/Graphics/Maps/PartitionforTransJordan.asp



Sorry, the Arab Moslim part of Palestine has been an independent nation since 1923- with Jews forbidden to become citizens.