BS: Israel Moves in.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 07:44 AM

Play this at full volume, day and night, to both sides, until everyone gets the message!

Send it to every Palestinian and Israeli Radio Station, TV station.

...and could someone 'out there' please ask Pete Morton to put it on his Myspace page, because this song is important, moreso if the people who are living through this hell got to hear it, because it is the ORDINARY people of the Middle East who will bring the peace, not the military or the crazy, hating extremists.


The Two Brothers by Pete Morton

"I don't care who started it, I just want to hear you play
I just want to see you smiling in the glory of the day
Israel give his ball back, stop pulling his hair
Both of you, my sons, I know it isn't fair

I don't care who started it, just stop all the noise
I can see you're two very over-tired little boys
Palestine I saw you kick him, Israel sit still
Let us get some peace now, if you will

I don't care who started it, must I ask you again?
Put aside your anger, all the sorrow and all the pain
Throw away your struggles, clear the mess up from the floor
Don't want to hear you squabbling anymore

I don't who started it, just try and get along
Every time I here I come round here, there's always something wrong
One day in the future this won't mean a thing
One day in the future, as brothers, you'll sing

I don't care who started it, I just want to hear you play
I just want to see you smiling in the glory of the day"


Pete Morton - Main Site

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 07:38 AM

"If Israel were to withdraw to its pre 1967 borders is Hamas prepared to live in peace with the Jewish state?"

How bout they do it, and then we see what happens?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 07:27 AM

Under the terms of the Partition Plan, the Arab League did not have the right to attack Israel, so there woyuld have been no refugees, would there.


You can't allow that the Arab League can attack a state, and that state NOT defend itself AND obtain secure borders against the Arab League.

Not unless you declare Jews to be subhuman, and not having the rights you insist on for Moslims.

Is that the case?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 07:15 AM

http://www.thebulletin.us/articles/2009/01/05/herb_denenberg/doc4961c29b5ed1a649711765.txt



"The drunk driver is driving towards a well equipped technologically advanced state,"

No, the drunk bus driver is sideswiping cars, and running over the occasional bus stop, killing a few people each time. The police tried to shoot out the tires, and the bus crashed.

So blame the police.



Since Hamas took over Gaza, about 6000 rockets have been launced at Israeli civilians.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 07:10 AM

Kendall,

My overly long post ( apologies to all, esp. Joe) detailed some of the reasons. I will try to locate it an post the clickey to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 06:17 AM

Everything that has already happened is completely irrelevant. The past is not a basis for any sort of discussion or negotiation, only the future. Until all parties draw a line, stop finger pointing and shouting "Yah-Boo" at one another, accept that what's happened can't be un-happened, and start to work out together how to prevent it happening again in the future, there is no future there.

Jaw-Jaw's what's needed, not War-War.

But don't hold your breath.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lox
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 05:45 AM

Here is a useful article by Avi Shlaim, a patriotic ex Israeli Army serviceman who went on to become a professor of international relations at oxford university.

Click here.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 05:03 AM

"The alternative Guest Lox is simple - Hamas have to publicly renounce the stated aims of their Charter, they have to renounce violence - then and only then is there a basis for discussion."

Oh of course - simple.

So um ... how do we get to that point then teribus?

Do we wait?

Maybe they'll do it as a new years present?

Or Maybe we should talk?

Or maybe there should be more Killing?

Whats it to be - talking or killing?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 04:56 AM

By the way, whether or not any Arabs rejected the Partition Plan to steal their land from them is totally irrelevant to whether or not Israel had a right to take land that was not given to it in the Partition plan. Under the terms of the Partition Plan, Israel did not have a right to take any land other than what was given to it in the Partition Plan.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 04:23 AM

"Israel is an offense against the world of Islam"

No, it is the Extremist Militants within Islam itself who are an offence against Islam.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 01:22 AM

"Israel is an offense against the world of Islam – You cannot negotiate with people who are committed and determined to annihilate you."

Oh shit - well in that case maybe Israel should just nuke them - as after all - if one is alive they will make it their purpose to destroy Israel.

Your logic mate.

And if you don't think they should all be destroyed then what alternative do you see?" - Guest lox

The alternative Guest Lox is simple - Hamas have to publicly renounce the stated aims of their Charter, they have to renounce violence - then and only then is there a basis for discussion.

With regard to the situation in Northern Ireland the following had to be done before any negotiations were in any way, shape, or form, meaningful:

- Cessation and renunciation of violence on the part of the paramilitary groups.
- Agreement to decommission weapons in a manner that could be verified by independent third parties.
- The removal from the Constitution of Eire of it statement regarding it's right to govern the six northern counties known as Ulster.

The latter being required in order to set in concrete that the decision as to who "ruled" Northern Ireland would be entirely up to the people of Northern Ireland.

The Palestinian Authority and Fatah have grasped the fact that some things on their side have to change and have come to terms with it. In the West Bank they possibly cannot be seen to deal harshly with splinter groups or fundamentalist radicals - but Israel can (Again a parallel from Northern Ireland; the PIRA informed on and colluded with the Security services to assist in eradicating the INLA).

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 10:58 PM

I'm gonna start this with a shout-out to Bearded Bruce who is acquitting himself nobly in a noble and worthwhile cause, taking upon himself the slings and arrows of outraged self-righteousness on the part of many others. BB, It's twenty below zero outside and I'm reading this thread in order to get my temperature up. I appreciate what you've got to say and for the most part agree with it. It's a shame some of the folks in this thread have chosen to treat you with condescension, but buck up. They didn't say anything for the Tutsis, for the oppressed of Darfur, for the Georgians, for Baghdadi Shiites, but let a Hamas leader get killed while in the bowels of his family, all hell breaks loose. I''d rather not follow that line of thought much further, it'll get me depressed and bring down the temperature.

Without getting into the name-blame bizness, I'm duty bound to alert y'all of the usual: Some of you might not like Israel being there, but it's there, it's a real country for several generations now, and it wishes to protect its borders and citizens. It's the only democratic country in the area, (except Iraq and Afganistan for the time being). If this causes you tsores, look elsewhere for sympathy. I'm proud as hell of Israel and what it has accomplished in sixty years.

One person maintained that Hamas honored their cease-fire commitments, even when they were firing rockets indiscriminately into civilian parts of Israel, as they have been doing throughout the recent unpleasantness. This is patently untrue and simply a means of taking sides irrespective of whatEVER Hamas does. It is perhaps true that Hamas honored the truce by Hamas terms. Just as Two years ago Hamas was executing members of Fatah in the streets and publicly taking apart, literally, folks accused of being collaborators. Peace, government, justice on Hamas terms.

Israel could just be bombing Gaza into the stone age. Instead they are sending their men into harms' way. This happened in Ramallah in 2002 and there was a lot of bleating about it, without a critical view of many of the claims being made about Palestinian casualties, which proved to be overstated and phony.

A poster above only counts Palestinian alleged child casualties and defines everything based on that. They must've been a real wildman during the Rwandan massacres.

Another would be more at ease if only the Israelis were suffering more casualties. Somehow that make it more palatable to this person. I think it is disgusting. It's bad enough that any children are in harm's way, but it would do far more to justice to review WHY they are in harm's way and who put them there.

Rocket after rocket has pounded into Israeli communities for years. This is under Hamas direct oversight and is part of Hamas policy. Hamas policy is not merely one of land for Palestinians, It is juden raus. Why is it that Israel has Christian and Muslim citizens but Jews and Christians are not equals in most Arab countries? If you are accused of trying to convert a Muslim or of defaming Mohammed your life is in jeopardy. And to repeat what Bearded Bruce and a few others have said cogently and correctly, why is it that Israel must resettle displaced Jews AND displaced Arabs?

Abba Eban famously said: "The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity." Israel marched out of Gaza pretty much unilaterally three years ago. There was opportunity with a capital "O". Is the situation we see now caused by Israel or Hamas? I see it as unequivically Hamas.

FWIW, among the crowd I work with, comments run the absolute reverse of many on this thread. It's been intimated that I'm a Palestinian lover, to which I reply, "What do you mean, I AM a Palestinian!" The whole problem is the folks who refuse to see me as one, too!"

Robomatic, proud ZIONIST, proud Palestinian

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 09:28 PM

Can someone tell me why it is that all we see on our news is maimed and dead children in Gaza? Why do we not see the victims of the rockets that lad in Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 07:03 PM

Bravo lizzie !!

I agree .. it has gone mad ... tragic lunacy

with that I'm outta here.


biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:52 PM

They've *all* gone mad.

It's not 'one side or the other' any longer, just a combined collection of soldiers and leaders who have seemingly lost their humanity together.


"Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."
Martin Luther King Jr.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:45 PM

"Those whom the gods would destroy they first make mad" - Euripides.

Seems to apply pretty well to this situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:44 PM

Last year Bruce, 50 people died and hundreds more were injured bt Israel's hands on the West Bank.

Now tell me how many rockets were fired from the West Bank?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:42 PM

They're just enjoying the last bit of unquestioning loyalty tat they can hope for from the USA.

If right wing Americans don't trust "muslim" Obama then right wing Israelis sure as hell won't.

If he ain't gonna be for us then he must be against us and all that.

Not to mention that his middle name is Hussein...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:38 PM

"Israel is an offense against the world of Islam – You cannot negotiate with people who are committed and determined to annihilate you."

Oh shit - well in that case maybe Israel should just nuke them - as after all - if one is alive they will make it their purpose to destroy Israel.

Your logic mate.

And if you don't think they should all be destroyed then what alternative do you see?

Talking?

Cos thats the choice.

Killing or Talking.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:35 PM

Like I said, with explanation, on the "other thread", Israel is acting like a dupe nation that has just fallen for trickery and is now less secure...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:33 PM

""I see the children, and ache for their pain."
It's just words, isn't it! "

No Ake - its the vulnerable man in the middle of the fortress.

Excuse my arrogance, but in my view the post to which you refer is a model example.

The vulnerable man is sitting safe and in the dark surrounded by an impenetrable wall of denial on the inside, and blame on the outside.

If the drunk driver were about to drive over a cliff then the analogy would be fair, but that isn't how things are.

The drunk driver is driving towards a well equipped technologically advanced state, which, rather than try and help the children, has chosen to kill the driver and accept the loss of the children as collateral damage.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:32 PM

but I hold Hamas responsible

I dont hold jews responsible - I hold the people who ordered this and who fired the shells responsible.

As I do for all the other shells.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:27 PM

"Palestine is not a Muslim country, and it has never been the intention of the Palestinians that it should be." – So says CarolC.

In saying that she is almost correct, what she omits to mention is that that was also the founding intention of the League of Nations. Great Britain knew full well that there would be problems with that from the Arabs who lived in the Mandated territory known as Palestine as declared in 1921 – THAT Palestine consisted of Gaza; what is now known as Israel; the area now known as the West Bank and all of what is now known as Jordan.

In 1923 to avoid the foreseen problems with territories mandated for administration and oversight by France and the United Kingdom two areas were set up specifically to establish refuge for minorities, the French established the Lebanon and the British broke off 23% of the original Palestinian Mandated Territory calling this area Palestine, the remaining 77% of the original area was given to the Palestinian Arabs and called Trans-Jordan. While anyone could purchase land in the new Palestine which consisted of Gaza; what is now known as Israel and the area now known as the West Bank, only Arabs could own land in Trans-Jordan.

Now this multicultural, secular, religious-tolerant acreage did not suit the Muslims (predominantly Arabs) who lived in the new Palestine and so steps forth self aggrandized "Grand Mufti of Jerusalem" – Yasser Arafat's Uncle – He derived his power and wealth from devout Muslims and he wanted those loyal devout dupes to control the country as a means of ensuring his continued wealth – A trait that ran strong in that family going on Yasser's later performance. Hence his campaign of lies that fomented Arab violence on the Jewish citizens of Palestine from 1920 to 1947 – the acts of violence and terrorism that CarolC denies ever happened. What Carol's "Palestinians" are fighting for now is precisely what they were offered by the United Nations in 1947 and rejected out of hand. Had they accepted those terms in 1947 there would of course have been no displaced persons, there would have been no "Right of Return" issues. The other "crack-in-the-plaster" that is being conveniently papered over is that Hamas will never recognize Israel's right to peaceful co-existence, the Jewish State of Israel is an offense against the world of Islam – You cannot negotiate with people who are committed and determined to annihilate you.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:25 PM

"I see the children, and ache for their pain."
It's just words, isn't it!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:23 PM

Sorry - the key point -

This massacre is happening now.

We aren't talking about something that happened, but something that is happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:20 PM

Those were also tragedies BB and my heart goes out to those children and their families.

What's more, the people who committed those murders are criminals.

But for the same reason that a stabbing in London gets less Media attention than a Gunman in Dunblaine, so there is more attention on this than on those.

This is not one incident - it is a massacre.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:07 PM

I see the children, and ache for their pain. I wish they were not harmed- but I hold Hamas responsible, just as I would hold a drunk bus driver responsible for the kids he might hurt if he drives irresponsibly.


But I note that there were no wails of horror when the Hamas rockets hit the Palestinian children, or the suicide bomber blew up the Israeli children's party. It seems that ONLY JEWS are hel;d reponsible, even when it is someone else's fault.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:02 PM

600-9.

This is just another genocide.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:52 PM

Because I've read many of his posts over many years, and communicated with him over a small number too.

I like the guy and feel very strongly that he is a good hearted intelligent sincere man.

I don't se him as any type of troll.

I do feel also that he has fortified his view of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict with piles of information which serves as a big indomitable unbreachable wall of logic.

I believe that on this issue, he has developed a siege mentality and as such is prepared, like Israel, to take on all comers without budging or flinching.

He does care about those children, but can't see them as to do so would weaken the defence in his argumental wall.

We cannot show mercy or we shall perish.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:46 PM

If there are children there, ask why- and ask it of HAMAS.

The Israeli's have just shelled a UN school killing thirty people. The UN spokesperson said the Israelis have the co-ordinates of all the UN places which are supposed to be respected.

"The Hamas were sheltering behind civilians" say the Israelis. Nothing new there.

Remarkable when they shell such places they manage to kill the women and kids and still miss the Hamas.

It is simply slaughter. Let's stop pretending it is anything else. Are the Israeli soldiers just obeying orders?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:45 PM

Extract from one of my favourite columnists, Michele Hanson, in today's Guardian:

I'm on my dog walkie and I meet an acquaintance with her dog. We are both Jewish. Naturally I mention Israel, now that it is bombing the hell out of Gaza. This is not good for the Jews. First Bernie Madoff, Wall Street financier and swindler, now this. Our name will be mud. But I like this woman. She is personable, friendly, witty, bright. We often talk about our children and families. I assume she will agree with me, so I say that Israel must be mad. They must stop their attack at once, this is not going to help anyone.

But my friend does not agree. "They have to defend themselves," she says. "Hamas keep firing rockets."

"Because Israel is illegally occupying Palestine. It must get its settlements out of the West Bank ... blah, blah, blah." Why argue? I can tell I'm not going to get anywhere. How are Israel and Palestine to agree if we cannot? Clear as day to me. Clear as day the other way round to her, and apparently to the BBC, ITV, Channel 4 and most newspapers. None of them mentions the bloody settlements. I watch the news, I listen carefully, I wait for the reporters to ask the Israeli leaders, ministers and representatives, "What about the illegal settlements? When are they going to be dismantled? When can the Palestinians have their land back? What about the wall? The siege/blockade of Gaza? The democratic choice of Hamas? The death of 1,700 Palestinians in Gaza in the last three years since the Israelis 'pulled out'? When will the checkpoints be opened?" Not a peep.

"Where is Tony Blair in all this?" asks Rosemary. "Isn't he meant to be sorting it out?" Yes. He's just back from holiday and he's going to do it without talking to Hamas, and probably without making too much fuss about settlements. I would laugh, but I can't.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Gervase
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:43 PM

Why is everyone feeding the bearded troll? Does anyone imagine that they will be the one to evince a damascene conversion - that their particular post will cause him to throw up his hands and cry, "I was wrong"?
This thread is in danger of turning into another WalkaboutsVerse tit for tat. Just let it drop - BB will continue to post stuff from the world as he sees it, and if sensible folk ignore it then no harm done. It's only a web site, for Pete's sake, and it's only the opinion of one man. I really wouldn't think the world's statesmen are refreshing our screens as we type, waiting for the next pearl from the selective cut'n'paste maestro.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:40 PM

But I don't feel the burn of tears till I consider those who survive but are mutilated ...

... and yet it continues ...

... is continuing ...

... and those survivirs are in pain and in fear ...

... no guarantee that you will survive the seond time - especially when hospitals and schools are legitimate targets.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:35 PM

What about our chiildren, he did this and I did that ...

... this is the argumentative logic of my daughter in the playground.

In such situations I tell both children to stop being naughty.

In this case, 195 children have been killed and it is a disgrace and may those who killed them burn in hell.

I didn't say palestinian children, I said children.


Do you see them as "different children"?


He made me do it. - doesn't wash.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:30 PM

Just waiting for Hamas to stop launching rockets. Until then, the Israeli forces will keep attacking military targets. If there are children there, ask why- and ask it of HAMAS.




Any other country would have just carpet bombed the area, killing them all.


And would have gotten a lot less flack from the world, as well.



Did you read my post of 06 Jan 09 - 03:17 PM

"Mainstream Media Not Reporting Israel Follows International Law; Hamas Does Not"

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:26 PM

BB - I respect you, I hope you know that.


The balance has tipped way beyond what is justifiable.



There is only one statistic that matters now - 195 children dead.



I DON'T CARE WHY!!!!!!!



The time to stop is NOW!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:24 PM

The Saudi proposal was that Israel concede its negotiating points ( Jeruselam and the "right of return" ( For Moslims- no mention of equaty for Jews) BEFORE they could sit at the negotiating table.



"I want to buy your house."

Fine. sign this agreement to give me all I want, and I will start to negotiate with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:10 PM

The Middle Eastern countries have had a proposal to recognize Israel within the pre-1967 borders on the table for years. It's called the Saudi Proposal. I'm sure the UN is aware of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:09 PM

Hamas has stated that they would accept an agreement for Israel to return to the pre-1967 borders. Clearly they don't feel a need to change the charter until they see the possibility of Israel actually doing that.


I'm very glad the Mudcat moderators have a policy of deleting anonymous guest postings, and I expect that, in accordance with this policy, all postings from anonymous guests in this thread will be deleted.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:05 PM

"as well has Hamas have said that they would accept the existence of Israel "

Until Hamas repudiates its charter, your statement is an obvious falsehood.

Have you ever even read anything that disagrees with what you want to believe? Obviously you have not read the charter of Hamas, nor their official statements.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:03 PM

"All of the Middle Eastern countries as well has Hamas have said that they would accept the existence of Israel within the pre-1967 borders."
If they were all to bring that statement to the UN Security Council tomorrow it would put tremendous international pressure on Isreal to withdraw. Much more than shooting rockets in a fight they have little or no hope of winning

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 04:49 PM

Israel is targeting the civilian population of Gaza with its blockade of Gaza. That is an attack on the Palestinian people in Gaza.


___________________

All of the Middle Eastern countries as well has Hamas have said that they would accept the existence of Israel within the pre-1967 borders.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 04:45 PM

Under Israel it has been.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 04:34 PM

BB as I said my hope would be that Jerusalem would be an open city to all faiths. I know that was not done in the past but if it were in the future would that bring peace? In order to negotiate anything in good faith it requires some give and take on the part of both sides. Somewhere, somehow ther must be a new beginning point!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 04:32 PM

Israel: Hamas mortars prompted attack near U.N. school

Story Highlights
NEW: Hamas militants fired shells from school, Israel says

NEW: Third school damaged by artillery shell, U.N. says

NEW: Condoleezza Rice set to meet with other diplomats at U.N.

Sixth Israeli soldier dies; Israel says 130 Hamas fighters killed in ground offensive

   
GAZA CITY (CNN) -- Three artillery shells believed to have been fired by Israeli forces struck near the perimeter of a U.N. school in northern Gaza on Tuesday, killing at least 30 people and wounding 55, a U.N. official said.

The Israeli military said Hamas militants had fired mortar shells at Israeli forces, prompting return fire, according to its initial investigation.

U.N. Relief and Works Agency Director John Ging said most of the casualties were outside the school in the Jabalya refugee camp.

"It's a very built-up area, so of course it was entirely inevitable that if artillery shells landed in that area there would be a high number of casualties," he said at a U.N. briefing from Gaza City.

Palestinian sources said 44 were killed in the attack.

The Israeli military said it is checking the report. The Israeli government has barred CNN and other news from entering Gaza.

A short time later, another artillery shell struck inside a second U.N. school in Jabalya, but Ging said the boys' prep school was empty at the time.

It was the third Israeli strike affecting a U.N. school in Gaza. Three Palestinian men, all members of the same family, were killed Monday night in Gaza City by a direct hit on an elementary school, the U.N. agency said. The schools were in use as shelters for civilians fleeing the military operation. The buildings were "clearly marked" with U.N. flags, and the agency said it had given the global-positioning coordinates of all its schools to Israeli authorities.

The U.N. agency said 400 Palestinians were staying in the Asma Elementary School at the time of Monday night's airstrike.

The latest incidents came as Israeli ground forces surrounded densely populated Gaza City after at least 50 airstrikes pounded the region overnight. Watch as Israel's forces surround Gaza City »

Other airstrikes hit the homes of people linked to Hamas, the Islamic militant group that rules Gaza, including the Wadi family in Jabalya, Hamas security sources said. Eight people were killed in that strike. An overnight airstrike hit the Jabalya home of Imad Siam, one of the leaders of Hamas' military wing.

Israel claimed Tuesday to have killed 130 Hamas fighters since beginning a ground offensive at dusk Saturday. An Israeli soldier was killed Tuesday morning in northern Gaza City, the Israeli military said, bringing to six the number of Israeli forces who have died in Gaza since Israel launched its ground incursion. Learn what's behind the conflict »

As Israeli forces encircled Gaza City -- which has a population of about 400,000 -- diplomats turned up the heat for a cease-fire.

U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice briefed President-elect Barack Obama on Monday about American diplomatic efforts in the conflict, her spokesman said Tuesday.

Rice will confer Tuesday at the United Nations with officials including Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, the State Department said. Abbas plans to present a resolution drafted by the Arab League to the U.N. Security Council. The resolution will call for Israel to stop its offensive in Gaza and for Hamas to cease firing rockets at the Jewish state.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert on Monday told French President Nicolas Sarkozy that Israel wanted a "full solution" to the conflict, not just a cease-fire that allowed Hamas to fortify itself, Olmert spokesman Mark Regev said. "Before the last cease-fire with Hamas began, Hamas had missiles with a range of 20 kilometers," Regev said Tuesday. "By the end of the cease-fire, the range of the missiles grew to 40 kilometers. Israel does not want the next cease-fire to allow them to get missiles with a range of 60 kilometers."
A Hamas rocket penetrated farther than ever before into Israel on Tuesday, landing in the town of Gadera, about 23 miles (36 kilometers) north of the Gaza border, the Israeli military said. On Monday, a rocket hit a kindergarten in Ashdod, about 16 miles (26 kilometers) north of Gaza.

Hamas had fired 30 rockets at Israel by Tuesday afternoon, the Israeli military said. Hamas spokesman Abu Obeida has warned Israel that the militants will continue rocket attacks "for many months" and vowed to strike deeper into Israeli territory.

The humanitarian situation in Gaza has deteriorated. Hundreds of wounded people swarmed into Gaza's largest hospital.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 04:24 PM

When Israel had control, from 1967 to present, ALL faiths have access to their holy spots.



Sorry, typo.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 04:22 PM

Sandy,

When Arabs had Jeruselum,from 1948 to 1967, Jews were not allowed acces to the holy spots there.

When Israel had control, from 1867 to present, ALL faiths have access to their holy spots.



Israel has complied with the UN Ceasefire on Lebenon of 2006: The Israeli soldiers kidnapped, which the ceasefire says will be returned, have not been returned.

ALL nations were to make sure that Hezboallah would be disarmed, and no additional military supplies would be allowed into Lebenon for Hezboallah: Starting with 12,000 rockest, and firing over 4,000, Hezboallah now claims more than 30,000 missiles, to threaten the civilian Israeli population.



If you were Israel, would YOU give control of Jeruselum up? For promises that have not been kept before, nor are being kept now?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beqardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 04:16 PM

DAMASCUS, Syria – France's president sought Syrian help Tuesday to bring a cease-fire in the Gaza Strip, while Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice headed to the United Nations for meetings with Arab and European leaders.

The diplomacy drive showed little gains, though, as fighting in Gaza between the militant Palestinian group Hamas and Israeli forces raged for an 11th day, with almost 600 dead.

In the middle of a whirlwind Mideast tour, French President Nicolas Sarkozy urged his hosts in Syria to pressure Hamas to help end the fighting. Syria, along with Iran, is a key backer of Hamas, and it hosts the exiled political leadership of the group and other radical Palestinian factions.

"Syria must help us to convince Hamas to choose the voice of reason and peace," Sarkozy said, adding there can be no military solution.

Syrian President Bashar Assad did not respond to Sarkozy's call, instead slamming the Israeli offensive in Gaza as an "aggression" that must halt.

Assad said he agreed with Sarkozy on the need for a quick resolution to the "humanitarian tragedy" and for a cease-fire, Israeli withdrawal and the lifting of the blockade of Gaza. He made no mention of Hamas stopping rocket attacks on Israel.

In the past, Assad refused Israeli and U.S. demands to drop support for militant groups such as Hamas and Hezbollah, saying "armed resistance" against the Israeli occupation is justified.

Sarkozy already talked with Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak, Israeli leaders and Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas during his tour. He arrived later Tuesday in Lebanon and planned to return to Egypt in the evening.

Egyptian officials also increased pressure on the Syria-based Hamas leadership to accept a cease-fire.

Egypt, which has a peace deal with Israel has sometimes played a mediator role between Israel and Hamas, wants Hamas to cooperate with international efforts to end the Gaza conflict, Egyptian officials close to the negotiations said Tuesday. They spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the talks.

Egypt's influential intelligence chief, Omar Suleiman, and a delegation of Syria-based Hamas leaders spoke in Cairo on Tuesday.

"The message Hamas is getting (from Suleiman) is that without a cease-fire the Palestinians will be in a grave danger and everything they have achieved so far will be gone," one of the Egyptian officials said.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 04:09 PM

CaroC, I repeat and rephrase this question:
If Isreal were to withdraw to its pre 1967 borders is Hamas prepared to live in peace with the Jewish state? Would the rest of the Middle East do likewise? Yes BB that would mean giving up control of Jerusalem but perhaps in peace that city would be open to people of all faiths. I am not a strong believer of religious dogma and wish that could be cast aside but that perhaps won't happen for many years.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 04:01 PM

Israel is NOT attacking the Palestinian People: It is attacking military targets in Gaza, whose government, Hamas, has been attacking Israel's civilian population with rockets.

Hamas is using its own population as human shields, in violation of the Geneva Conventions. the blood of the vast majority of those innocent civilians is upon Hamas.