Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 May 06 - 06:47 PM

So, Guest Bob, if I were (as I am) a lot of whisky to the bad, and suffering the whisky nastiness, I might say that the music is, for you, irrelevant to the tradition and vice versa. Is the musician nothing more than an entertainer? I do not subscribe to that. You mention personal traditions. Our own personal traditions - if you like our roots, to analogise the general situation to the AfroAmerican one - must be more relevant to us than those of others, and equally it must be that we are responsible to our own traditions more than we are to those of others.

One question that seems to remain (there are of course others) is: why do so many English Welsh or Scottish players and listeners seem to want to adopt the Irish or American forms rather than their own - why do they bow to those forms of cultural imperialism? Why not French rather than zydeco or cajun? Why is this such a directional traffic? Are there American performers adopting the English traditional muse, or the Spanish or Italian (or South American) one?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: GUEST
Date: 16 May 06 - 05:34 PM

more importantly where can i get the word and music to "They're Removing Grandpa's Grave to Build a Sewer."

Sewermans my profession and i love songs about it.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: jacqui.c
Date: 16 May 06 - 03:05 PM

I'm English but grew up without any real idea of traditional English folk music except what was taught us at school. As far as I am concerned my musical background was basically pop music from the late 50's onward.

I now will learn and sing any songs that appeal to me, whatever their provenance. I have no problem with singing 'Fields of Athenry', Flower of Scotland' or 'Parcel of Rogues' in spite of the fact that the 'oppressors' were English. There is much of English history that I would be opposed to if those things happened now and I am happy to state that.

I am now learning songs from my adopted country, America. I am learning more about the heritage and culture of the country from those songs as has been the case from learning songs of the British Isles. To me the important thing has to be that I am drawn to a particular song, wherever it might have come from.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 May 06 - 02:39 PM

Q: I dont know where you are, but I am in England and artists regularly work in schools here. The regular teachers certainly do the four year course or whatever, but professional muscians, theatricals,visual artists etc do school projects as well. What I was drawing attention to was a disparity that can arise, when people from within a culture who are better qualified to share with children dont get the work; but people from outside the culture, who have made a more superficial(though totally sincere)effort to master a few tunes or djembe rhythms, do get the work, due to better connections or whatever.
    And this, I think, raises a very valid point when discussing the ways people can "opt in" to a culture because they feel a powerful attraction to it. Broadly speaking, I take the view that people are welcome to play whatever they like; but conversely, if you want someone to tell the kids about New Orleans jazz, get Louis Armstrong if possible, not Kenny Ball.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 May 06 - 02:21 PM

Echoing Foolestroupe's sigh. There are a moderate number of Africans and 'African-Canadians' (mostly Caribbean) in my city of one million. Theoretically they might be able to teach a variety of African musical forms, or Caribbean (including Haitian), i. e. IF they have any interest in or knowledge of them.
Among those I know, two brothers from Ghana studying here are very familiar with British popular music but no interest in African music, and a woman (third generation Canadian) I worked with was trained in classical piano and knows little of black music. This is true of many here. DNA doesn't transmit musical heritage.

The Caribbean and Haitian immigrants, on the other hand, have active musical groups, but their knowledge is limited mostly to the blend of west African-native American-French-Spanish-English forms that have developed in their islands. Forms developed in the States (except the latest music that they download) don't interest them. Only someone among them trained in broad musical traditions would be able to teach a suitable survey of 'African' music (whatever Stevens means by that).

Oh yes, to teach in schools here, four years of university with training in teaching is the minimum requirement.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 16 May 06 - 08:08 AM

There seems an unfortunate tendency to equate 1) singing songs from outside your personal tradition with 2) trying to be who you are not. The two have very little in common, IMO, except possibly in the work of a few unfortunates who can only imitate, being unable to develop a personal style.

I think you're wrong in assuming that performance style equals a wannabe crawling inside another race's or ethnicity's skin. As if it were impersonation. At worst, a sort of stagey parody that's a pathetic and insulting travesty, as with, say, blackface minstrelsy.

All that has nothing to do with how I approach Irish songs, which are very close to my heart as an Irish-Anglo-Welsh American.   I'm just multitraditional, that's all, with no particular claim to "authenticity" in any, but a vivid feeling for several that translates itself into music I love to make.

(By the way, you should hear England's David Jones pick and sing "Willie Moore" on the banjo Appalachian style. Very satisfying to me as a sharp critic of shallow imitators; he "gets" the style and works creatively in it. He might change your mind about the validity of cross-cultural music.)

But to go to the heart of the question, where the shoe really pinches, take blues. When I play blues I try to do justice to the style of the song as I heard and learned it. I think it would be insulting to take the song bodily out of the style it swims in! Dave Van Ronk was just one of many who argued strongly for sound and style being integral to a song, so that the song is neutered without it.

So though I don't necessarily "sing like," say, Blind Lemon Jefferson, I try to put into "Broke and Hungry" or "Match Box Blues" all the many things I've learned from his voice and style, in a way that I hope respects him, his tradition, and also myself.

I think about this a lot. In one respect, I take the view that he's no longer around to sing these blues himself; nobody else, or few others at most, sing his stuff. If his music was widespread and being done well by many others, I probably would choose something a little less commodified. As it is, I'm glad to be putting a rare sound back into the world in a form not dependent on a CD machine, amplifier and speakers.

Jefferson is a good example because a lot of Southern white pickers learned his stuff. He truly fostered a musical crossover. Papa Charlie Jackson was another who was very influential among whites. I could cite many. On the other hand Charley Patton was relatively hard to learn from. But "Stone Pony" is a song I couldn't do without.

I claim no particular virtue in my interpretation of their songs, and have sometimes been criticized for doing them at all. All I can say is, I love those songs as much as any in my "own" tradition, and they're part of my life.   I don't think anyone can or should ask more than that of a singer who's singing outside his personal tradition, whatever it may be.

Bob

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 May 06 - 05:38 AM

"ample public funding channelled into paying very good wages to perfectly well-meaning well brought up white middle-class people who go into schools to teach young people about African music ... in the same city are real African musicians reduced to working ... minimum wage type jobs"

I seem to be unable to comment without making what doubtless some would call possible inflammatory bigoted racist non-PC remarks...

sigh!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 May 06 - 05:18 AM

I think it is relevant to this discussion to mention the following interesting fact: in the city where I live, there is ample public funding channelled into paing very good wages to perfectly well-meaning well brought up white middle-class people who go into schools to teach young people about African music. And why not, you may say? But consider also the fact that in the same city are real African musicians reduced to working night shifts in bakeries, shelfstacking in warehouses etc, minimum wage type jobs. Now,this seems to be a relevant sort of situation to take into account while discussing the ramifications of people playing music from other cultures.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 May 06 - 03:06 AM

Interesting, Rev

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: GUEST,Rev
Date: 15 May 06 - 08:20 PM

I think that there are plenty of "Western" musicians who study the classical music of North India (which is what I assume is meant by "the Indian instruments), and many other "non-Western" traditions, especially in the many ethnomusicology programs and departments in universities all over the U.S. and Europe. Generally, ethnomusicologists believe that studying a music culture to which one is not native is an important way to learn about that culture. And of course learning about the culture, usually through some sort of "fieldwork" or "cultural immersion" is considered essential to acheiving an understanding of the music.
I think that the problems Richard Bridge brings up arise, not from simply learning or playing "alien" music, but from attempts to represent oneself as something that you are not. For example there are many people who present themselves as bearers of a tradition, like belly dancing or hula or even irish music, yet their knowledge of these traditions is superficial at best and insultingly cliched and stereotypical at worst. I think that Euro-Americans are still trying to sort through the karmic repercussions of blackface minstrelsy, coming to grips with the urge to mimic and claim ownership of that which is seen as exotic. Maybe the issue of power is the important variable here. When someone in a position of economic power or advantage claims ownership of the traditions of a culture that has less power, that's cultural hegemony (BAD). When someone from a position of economic disadvantage claims ownership of the music of the elite or the powerful, that is subversive reappropriation of cultural capital (GOOD).

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 May 06 - 07:50 PM

Actually I do find it sad when people in countries with neglected musical traditions which are extraordinarily interesting ignore these musical traditions and concentrate exclusively on Irish or American music. (For example the Netherlands.)

That's not because of worries about artificiality or inauthenticity though - it's because I want to know that these traditions are being maintained and developed, and that if I am in a foreign country I've a chance of finding a session playing the music of that country, rather than just the same stuff I might hear and play at home.

There have been plenty of occasions where a key element in helping preserve and continue a musical tradition has been the involvement of outsiders who have recognised and valued it, and in the process helped locals to see it as something to be treasured.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: Hawker
Date: 15 May 06 - 06:01 PM

maybe you are trying to wind us all up here, but my answers are, and I believe all answers will be different, as we are all individuals:
1) for me, I like irish Music so I play it, I also enjoy my own heritage which is a rich tapestry of a lot of things.... born in Africa, to a Yorkshire man, descended from a Scots writer by the name of Burns, and a Geordie Mum whose father was of Irish Descent, who fought at the Passchendale in WWI. I enjoy and partake in the customs, and history and songs surrounding my heritage.
2) I personally have never played the blues, but love to sing it! I am white, female and again dont see that it makes much difference, as long as it is played/sung and enjoyed. I do not ever pretend that I am ever anything other than what I am.
3) Repeat above, I do not want to be anyone other than who I am, I am proud of my uniqueness. In partaking of other ethnicities music and song, I do not feel that I have to pretend to be them.
4) Kletzmer music is wonderful! as to whether it has been invaded..........can you do that? Kletzmer music is Kletzmer music, whoever plays it, it doesnt mean it is no longer such!
5) I would guess that these classical musicians from the far and middle east do as you suggest because they either enjoy that kind of music or it is more profitable. As for Indian Instruments and western players, I don't know, but there are some amazing sounding instruments out there.
Enjoy Music of every sort wherever and whenever you can, with such a rich tapestry for us all to share, we should be grateful that music is shared and not kept secret and sacred to its source - should that be the case, the world would then I feel have been a poorer place.
Cheers, Lucy

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 15 May 06 - 05:06 PM

I do think he has a point...certainly never sing songs that insult your ancestors... or show your respect for them if you still like the song by explaining to us the other side of the story....but plenty of them actually don't...mg

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 15 May 06 - 04:22 PM

I think every type of music has a mongrel heritage and nothing 'belongs' to any one ethnic group.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 15 May 06 - 03:28 PM

With all due respect Richard, you may be confusing yourself with the "speaker" of the text of a song. If I did that I would never be able to sing "Coal Tattoo" or "Me and my Uncle." Not to mention "Danny Boy" and "They're Removing Grandpa's Grave to Build a Sewer."

They're songs, not the DNA of your soul. "Authenticity" is a dubious requirement.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: MMario
Date: 15 May 06 - 03:19 PM

given television, radio, CD's, mp3 players, etc cab we really say that any given genre isn't "part of one's culture"? If you grow up hearing it, certainly it would seem part of your personal culture even if not part of your general culture.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 May 06 - 03:15 PM

Yes, I expect there are swings. But it bothers me when people (having heard my speaking voice which plainly indicates a certain parentage and upbringing) ask me to sing Irish rebel songs in which those like my parents and grandparents were clearly villians deserving to be murdered. How can I speak for the rapparee?


Do we not carry within us the growth from our roots? If we do not then huge amounts of african-american retrospective scrutiny is misconceived. Why should the belief that we carry and are affected by our "race memories" not apply equally to others?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: greg stephens
Date: 15 May 06 - 03:03 PM

There is a tension in this subject that surely exists in all cultures and in all inddividuals. There is a need to embrace "the other" to progress and develop, yet there is also a tendency to reject and flee from "the other", and cling to what we know. Sometimes we swing to one extreme, rear and rejection of "aliens". next we are embracing the new with relish, chucking away vast amounts of value in the process. These forces need tension to be in some sort of healthy equilibrium. I am acutely aware of this sort of cultural tension in alot of my working life, as I work with recording music from groups of people trying in various ways to asssimilate(ir coexist) in a culture not of their own. Sometimes it's very alarming.
    Richard Bridge and McGrath from karlow seem to exemlify the two ends of this pendulum swing very accurately, thugh I expect on another day and another topic they may swing back inwards towards each other.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: M.Ted
Date: 15 May 06 - 02:50 PM

Most people neither know nor care where a particular sort of music comes from, if they like it, it belongs to them--That's what keeps music going--

If we require that music remain at the source, it'd only be heard in the living room of the person who wrote it--

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 May 06 - 02:14 PM

I'm not downplaying the importance of tradition. Just saying that how we settle on the music we play and feel at home with isn't necessarily determined by our ancestry.

Where people choose to get into the music of the traditions their ancestors used to share, and work to revive and strengthen those tarditions, that is great. But it is a choice. It is equally open to the charge of artificiality as it would be if they concentrated on music from elsewhere and eslewhen. The fact that something can be called artificial does not mean that it is unnatural, or unwholesome.

Thedre's a parallel with music and literature - there are those who get indignant at people who persist in preferring the music or the literature of another time, as if it was somehow disloyal.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 May 06 - 02:05 PM

The comment by Richard Bridge- "Never really relate to the experiences depicted in traditional blues.."

The days when the 'traditional blues' (or any older musical form) reflected the people who composed and lived them are gone. Since these traditions cannot be inherited and die with those who lived them, all of us are simply enjoying something we have discovered that we like- and perhaps learning the history behind the musical form has engrossed us.

"Pick a Bale of Cotton" brings memories, both good and bad, to old folks who were raised on cotton farms and did their share of picking, but for most of us, it is just an 'upbeat' song. Many of the folks who picked are white, and I am sure that they resent attempts to hijack the party song to apply only to chattel Blacks. It also should be resented by the many Black cotton farmers who own or have owned their own cotton fields. "The old cotton fields back home," as another song has it. The complaints seem to come from urban population centers and show ignorance of rural and small town work traditions and sensibilities.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: Azizi
Date: 15 May 06 - 01:48 PM

'The fact that "many Black Americans believe" indicates to me that "some Black Americans" don't "believe." -true- and since I've done no surveys and am not aware of any surveys on this subject,
I should have written "some Black people believe..."

****

"Sing what you like, but sing it in your own voice and with respect for where you got it from." sometimes respecting where you got a song from means being mindful of where & when you sing it.

[And now I really must go back to work; perhaps I'll rejoin this discussion later]

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: Sue the Borderer
Date: 15 May 06 - 01:40 PM

Interesting how in this thread there was one comment which really resonated for me and which no-one else picked up on.
Guest mg, whoever you are, I'd like to repeat what you wrote (14May 10.25pm)
"Sing what you like, but sing it in your own voice and with respect for where you got it from."

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 15 May 06 - 01:12 PM

Azizi's post raises a question in my mind. If "many Black Americans believe" such-and-such a thing, that's fine, and we should, if possible be aware of it.

How many? And what obligation does that belief devolve to anyone else? The fact that "many Black Americans believe" indicates to me that "some Black Americans" don't "believe."

I grew up hearing & singing "Pick a bale of cotton" as a bragging song, in the same vein as "I was born about 10000 years ago" and "The GReat Historical Bum" etc. But if "many" BAs now think I shouldn't sing it, and I acquiesce, what am I implying to "some" who either don't believe it, or disagree strongly, and maybe think along the same lines as I do? What would I be saying to them? What is it saying to ME if I have to decide not to sing a particular song because "many" people of one or another particular background "believe" that it means a certain thing or other and might be offended by that?

Not trying to be querelous, but it is an interesting ethical quandary.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 15 May 06 - 01:02 PM

What Kaleea and Jerry said.

Me, I only play pure English-Irish-Scottish-German-New England-Michigan-Puritan-Episcopalian-Mikmaq-UniQuak-Buddhi-palian music, true to my roots!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: Azizi
Date: 15 May 06 - 01:00 PM

Greg. What Ernest said about generalizing.

May I respectfully suggest that you and others who may be interested in my comments and others' comments on the subject of "Pick A Bale of Cotton" visit that thread and read {& possibly join in that discussion {though the specific thread name escapes me and I'm supposed to be doing work so I can't look it up now].

However, I'll summarize my comments to say that-in my opinion- whoever sings "Pick A Bale Of Cotton" whether they be Black, White, or Green should be aware of the fact that many Black Americans believe that that uptempo song minimizes the degradation and horror of chattel slavery which has come to be symbolized by picking cotton. I believe this to be the case regardless of the fact that non-Black folks picked cotton, and regardless of that song's origin, and regardless of whether Leadbelly, and other Black artists sang or sing it.

With regard to the song "Black Betty" I believe you are misremembering my comments. I don't recall indicating that I have any concerns about that song. To the contrary- I like that song.
I remember listing "Black Betty" in a thread that I started about skin color references. And I also remember reading [and probably joining in] what I considered to be an interesting discussion about the meaning of "Black Betty". For instance some posters considered "Black Betty" to be a coded referent for a whip. I always thought it was a referent for a woman of dark skin.

Maybe it means both of these or something else.

Best wishes,

Azizi

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: greg stephens
Date: 15 May 06 - 12:38 PM

Ernest: of course she is entitled to her opinions, as we all are. And we also entitled to change them. And we are all entitled to pint ourt if other people change theirs. But that is a very minor point, in a very interesting discussion.
    I instinctively react against the use of the word "alien", but I dont go as far as the McGrath line, which indeed would seem to lead to the conclusion that there is no such thing as traditional music(or traditional anything). He seems to think that we can all exercise free will, and play what we like. Well, partially. I've played blues, and jazz, and Irish tunes, and cajun tunes, and Caribbean tunes too, and will continue to do so.
But having said that, when I play my old Cumbrian tunes, from where my ancestors lived, and think about my grandparents when I'm doing it I feel there is another dimension going on there. So, I'll reserve the right to sing Leadbelly songs, whether Richard Bridge wants me to or not. But I'll also feel there is something specially "mine" about tunes from where I'm from.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: Ernest
Date: 15 May 06 - 12:23 PM

People play certain kinds of music because they like it or - if they make a living playing music - they can make a living playing it. Music has always been a business as well as a pastime, and there always have been musicians taking up foreign styles or instruments.

In our modern world many people would see a lot of it more as a style than a tradition - this especially applies to styles of music that have developed over the time and are quite different from their beginnings - like modern electric blues compared to acoustic delta blues.

Rock and Pop music has developed out of various musical influences, such as blues, various folk etc. - what about this? Should this "mongrel"-music be the only music that everyone is allowed to play?
And are we are opening the next step now after the endless discussiona about what is accepted as "traditional"? ;0)
What is better: a pue-blooded musician playing a free interpretation of a piece of music or someone with an entirely different background who plays it so the purists are satisfied? This discussion could go boldly where no discussions have been before... (where`s Shatner, by the way?)

And Greg: don`t generalize, "Pick a bale of cotton" or "Black Betty" are just 2 songs - not a whole genre. If she feels that it is not p.c. to sing those songs she is entitled to her opinion, you don`t have to share it.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 15 May 06 - 11:59 AM

With all due respect, you're asking the wrong question.

I read the question you are asking as a rhetorical one.

You seem to me to be implicitly criticizing people for doing something that you once did but now eschew. Apparently you underwent a conversion experience.

If you want information which is relevant to you, ask yourself the question "Why do I care?"

For example, If you are Irish, a disdain for "Irish music carpet baggers" makes perfectly good sense. I'm not Irish but I've been there myself and done that about "my" musical traditions. But if you're not Irish, why do you care?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 15 May 06 - 11:48 AM

If McGrath thinks slip(9/8)jigs are not ethnically English, he needs to get out more. The English tradition is/was full of these tunes, as is/was theIrish. The rhythm does slowly seem to be going out of fshion compaered to ordinary jigs and reels, but that's another story.
    Azizi says in this thread that white people are welcome to sing black folk music, but I dont seem to recall her taking that line in the "Pick a Bale of Cotton" and "Black Betty" Leadbelly controversy. But maybe I misremember.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: Tinker
Date: 15 May 06 - 10:40 AM

Traditions are perhapas more fleeting in a world where information moves at overload speed and 'common tradition is easily morphed into pop culture in an ever changing way.

Like Kaleea I've got many cultures to try and pick and choose from in my genetic background, but there was no musical tradition handed down to me except perhaps that of the Catholic Church. I can attempt to give more to my children, but I cannot reforge the past to a tradition that doesn't exist.


tinker

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 15 May 06 - 10:38 AM

You're talking entirely about content then, rather than musical form. I'd say that the content - if it's really "relevant" to anything, is relevant to larger things than those "here and now" things that pertaoin only to a particular culture. For that matter, a paarticular piece of a given culture. There are many blacks today who could not - according to your lights, as I read you - sincerely relate to "traditional" blues. Partly because many of them simply don't wake up in the mornin' to believe they'll dust their broom any more. IOW, what you seem to be saying is that educated, middle class WHITE folk (maybe you're saying ANY white folk, I dunno) can't "connect" to "traditional" blues because we don't pick cotton. True enough. Equally true of lotsa black folks.

How do we acquire "traditions" if we don't "adopt" them? And who's to say we can't "unadopt" some that don't please us? I'm afraid I'm still a little foggy as to the real thrust of this thread. The answer to "how does a person pick up traditions other than those of the cultural milieu in which one was raised?" is simply "one grows up and gets educated and sees & hears the world and realizes that one's little corner of childhood was rather small and limited." No? The answer to "Why does one leave the tradition to which one was yatta yattaa" is exactly the same answer as the other one.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 May 06 - 10:20 AM

I was quite into the blues when I was at university in the 60s but later came to regard myself as a cuckoo in the nest, who could never really relate properly to the experiences depicted in traditional blues. Surely that is still so.

If the views advanced in this thread are true then we have no traditions save for those which we adopt. Surely that cannot be so.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: Cluin
Date: 15 May 06 - 09:57 AM

What Jerry R. said.

You play from your soul, not your DNA.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: Azizi
Date: 14 May 06 - 11:32 PM

Correction:

In my first post to this thread I meant to write:

However, Richard, your question about people performing [music from]traditions that are not part of their culture, is a whole nother subject".

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: Azizi
Date: 14 May 06 - 11:29 PM

As to why a number of Black Americans are 'in to' blues or-for that matter-jazz, I'm sure there are many reasons that could be given for this.

Among those reasons, I would suggest that we {African Americans} have a strong preference for social music to be performed with couple's or group dance {as in line dances like the "Electric Slide" . I think this ties into the importance of participatory/community nature of art in African cultures. That participatory nature of the creative experience includes the audience calling out encouragement or singing along with songs..
but I don't want to digress...

In my opinion, when dance became separated from the performance of the blues and the performance of jazz-when these two musical genres became performance and listerner only art, that spelled the demise of blues and jazz as music to be appreciated by and supported {through record purchases/concerts etc]for the masses of African Americans.

Perhaps other populations are more enthusiastic about blues and jazz because those populations don't traditional have as integral a tie between dance and music as African Americans and other people of African descent.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: Kaleea
Date: 14 May 06 - 11:22 PM

I know many people born & raised in the "midwest" USA who have little or no knowledge of the heritage/traditions/arts of their ancestors. This seems to be common with folks whose people came to the USA 200-300 years ago & then ambled across the plains mixing it up as they went along. It can be difficult to know one's ancestry, much less the music of those ancestors.
Let's see, should I be performing Choctaw Music, or Cherokee Music, or Chickasaw Music, or Irish Music, or Welsh Music, or Scottish Music, or English Music? But wait, my Mother said she had an aunt who came from Switzerland, so maybe I should only be interested in Swiss traditional Music. Oh, yes, and Daddy said his mother had some French, so maybe I should be really into only French folk songs--but then anyone who knows the beautiful French language does NOT want to hear me disembowel a French vowel. OH! I almost forgot!! My (first) cousin had a DNA test done & the results showed that she has African DNA--as do I, probably, as research has shown that most people from the "midwest" USA do, so maybe it's in my genes that I love Jazz & Blues & Ray Charles as much as I do . . .
Or maybe people are tapping into their love of Music from another place & time in a past life?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: Azizi
Date: 14 May 06 - 11:14 PM

Richard Bridge, you mentioned that I was interested in the relevance of ethnicity.

Well, yes and no. With regard to race/ethnicity-I believe that race and ethnicity {as used for Latinos and maybe other populations] are social [and perhaps still in some places legal] constructs that probably have little or no biological meaning or relevancy. I very much hope for a time when race/ethnicity has no positive or negative valuation, though as categories they still may be recognized {in the same way as folks who can see recognize different colors of flowers}.

With regard to the collection of folk music, I believe that whenever possible collectors of folk music should collect as much demographical information as they can [gender, age, location, meaning of topical or slang terms, name of informants {at least first names, description of performance...and the informants' race/ethnicity.

Could a person's race/ethnicity be a factor in the version of the song collected, and the manner by which the song is performed, and the meaning of the song's words or references? Perhaps.

That is why I advocate that folklorists should document their informants' race/ethnicity.

However, Richard, your question about people documenting traditions that are not part of their culture, is a whole nother subject.

First off, we are in this world together. I personally don't like the term "alien". When I hear it I think of people from out of space. But even then, I think of how the American television series "Star Trek" promoted interaction as equals by persons without regard to which planet they came from...

I absolutely believe that individuals should be introduced to and learn about and perform-if they desire-whatever music from whatever culture they wish.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: dulcimer42
Date: 14 May 06 - 10:34 PM

Jerry. It's that blend of southern black gospel, with the country/bluegrass feel, with that Jamaican touch that makes your music what it is. And I love it.    Of course I would though... being from Michigan myself, used to love attending "All Night Gospel Sings", and when my family would travel to Florida to visit Grandma, I couldn't wait till we'd hit the southern states where I could hear that Bluegrass Sound, which for some reason I took a liking to (much to the disdain of my younger siblings, as I sat in the front seat and claimed control of the radio dial) Somewhere along the line, I discovered the Appalachian Mountain Dulcimer, which I include with my hammered dulcimr playing, celtic harp...etc. Maybe some of this explains why I love your music.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 14 May 06 - 10:25 PM

Sing what you like but sing it in your own voice and with respect for where you got it from. Who knows, someone in Madagascar might like your cowboy songs or lullabies. Why shouldn't she feel welcome to sing them? mg

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 14 May 06 - 10:21 PM

Play music you feel.

I am a white Danish-American who grew up in a 100% white city in the Midwest, leading a gospel quartet that sings primarily black gospel.
The two other members of my for the-moment-trio are black, grew up in the south, and although they grew up with the black gospel I didn't hear until I was an adult, they also grew up with country music, the Grand Ole Opry and bluegrass, and love it all. Our now departed fourth member of my once-quartet is Jamaican. According to this premise, I guess I should have stuck to playing polkas and Schotisches, My two friends who grew up in the south should refuse to sing any songs that I bring that are clearly white southern gospel, and my departed (but not deceased) member should only be playing reggae. But then, because I grew up in the north, I shouldn't really be singing Appalachian music. I didn't even know where the Appalachians was. Confusinger and confusinger.

Play music you feel.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 14 May 06 - 10:03 PM

I don't quite understand the question, so I'm probably misreading entirely, but it seems to me that 1) there's no such thing as a limitation on the "relevance" of music (or any other art) except for phony imposed limitations (usually by folks who feel that their young 'uns ought not to be messin' with other peoples' cultural artefacts) and 2) if people look outside their "own traditions" is can't help but be a good thing. But then again, I'm sure I don't really understand the question.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 May 06 - 06:20 PM

Most people in many parts of the world, including England, grow up cut off from any kind of traditional musical culture. If when they come up against a musical tradition they find it stimulating and appealing, the natural thing is to explore it further and get involved in it, including making music in mnany cases.

It is no more artificial for deculturated English people to get into Irish music, or blues, or other types of American music such as bluegrass, than for them to seek out ethnic English traditions which are equally alien to them.

Of course some people do do that, and a lot of great music has come out from it, and I'm very glad it happens. But it'd be a nonsense to have people saying "You are ethnic English - you shouldn't be singing the blues or playing slip-jigs, you should be Morris Dancing", or "You are Black - you shouldn't be singing Border Ballads, you should be playing a thumb piano."

Our genes don't determine what kind of music we should play.

Subject: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 May 06 - 05:57 PM

There are currently two threads that I have recently seen on the Mudcat to which this is relevant.

It may also be relevant to some of Azizi's researches on the relevance of ethnicity.

Can anyone explain why quite a large number of non-Irish people seem determined to pass themselves off, musically, as Irish? Why do they not play and preserve their own traditions?

Why do so many white musicians determinedly play the blues and only the blues, when so few young persons to whose traditions the blues might be relevant play it?

Why do so many people want to be someone other than who they are?

Does Klezmer music suffer an invasion of players to whom it is an alien tradition? What about the non-Western music of the other areas around the Mediterranean?

Indeed what about performers of Western classical music from the far and middle east? Why do they abandon their own traditions and seek to play foreign music, and why do so few western musicians (the Beatles excepted) try to master the Indian instruments?