What's Happening with EFDSS?

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Jul 07 - 08:43 AM

I know it's sad 200!!!

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 19 Jul 07 - 08:11 AM

Dick, I know you're not. You're always transparent about who you are. But when you asked "Who am I to believe?" I was simply suggesting that people who post as "Guest" without any hint as to their identity, are often simply here to stir up trouble. If someone won't provide a source for their information, I regard it as gossip and hearsay until such source is provided and the provider identifies themselves.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jul 07 - 07:56 AM

JO, So that there is no misunderstanding ,I can assure you, I am not the anonymous guest,Dick Mileshttp://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: GUEST,Ruston Hornsby
Date: 19 Jul 07 - 07:53 AM

What's bothering me is that the way that the releases of information that are appearing from EFDSS sound just like the "selective information on a need to know basis" that I get via the internal website of the Government Department that I work for that try to tell me what to think, along with PR and spin styled press release type quotes from those in charge. I expect this kind of Orwellian management in the UK in this day and age, but not from the EFDSS. They'll be promoting their Executive's "Visions" next.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: GUEST,Darowyn
Date: 19 Jul 07 - 07:36 AM

I'm sure he doen not need me to stand up for him, but since Captain Birdseye regularly included links to his Dick Miles website, he is not very anonymous really, is he?
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 19 Jul 07 - 06:36 AM

Perhaps not someone who makes damaging allegations behind the veil of anonymity. I am Joan Crump, by the way (though I suspect most people know this). Guest, would you like to tell us who you are?

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jul 07 - 05:45 AM

Ruth,who am I to believe.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 19 Jul 07 - 04:13 AM

It's also rubbish.

There are still things happening; the new structure is not completely implemented. Which is, I suspect, why no formal announcement has been made.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 07:17 PM

That is bad,to tell members and ex members of staff, they cant talk about it,not much freedom of speech.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 03:15 PM

All members of staff, both current and ex have been told not to discuss this in public.

I don't think you'll find much information forthcoming unless National Council decide to inform the membership about current staffing levels. If you phone Cecil Sharp House and ask to speak to various members of staff (I suggest working down a staff list from a publication over three months old), I think you'll find out who has gone very quickly.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 03:53 PM

but how many people were made redundant?or lost their jobs,even if they were part time.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: RTim
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 12:04 PM

MALCOLM TAYLOR APPOINTED LIBRARY DIRECTOR

The English Folk Dance and Song Society is pleased to announce that Malcolm Taylor, the Librarian of the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library, has been promoted to the post of Library Director.

The new post of Library Director is intended to emphasise the more strategic aspects of Malcolm?s role, with more focus on external networking and profile-raising for the Library and the EFDSS. Nevertheless, Malcolm will still maintain a hands-on role within the Library ? facilitating research,answering queries and encouraging new and existing users of the Library.

Judith Hanson, a trustee of the English Folk Dance and Song Society, said, "This promotion recognises and reflects the importance of the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library and its staff within the future focus of the work of the EFDSS".

Malcolm Taylor has been employed in the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library since 1979 ? first as assistant librarian and, from 1981 as Librarian. In 2002 his contribution to music librarianship was recognised in the award of an OBE in the New Year Honours. In 2005 he received the EFDSS?s Gold Badge for his significant contribution to the work of the Society.

Over the years, Malcolm has been responsible for vastly improving the profile, credibility and authority of the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library. He instituted a programme of Library Lectures, a series of recordings first on cassette and later on CD, as well as other musical events, concerts, conferences and exhibitions. He has presented several radio programmes on BBC Radio 2 and Radio 4. The emphasis of all these events has been to encourage people to come in and use the Library and also to share in the research of others.

A folk music enthusiast since his teens, Malcolm Taylor has eclectic musical tastes ranging beyond folk music. He lives with his wife Laura also a librarian - and their two children in South London.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: RTim
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 09:49 AM

Malcolm Taylor has been made the VWML Library Director.

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 09:42 AM

any developments.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 12:20 PM

I'm saying nuffink.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 12:56 PM

the first post was six weeks ago,anymore news.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: GUEST,Confusionus
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 02:12 PM

Usually, if one has nothing to say, 'tis best to say........ nothing.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 01:34 PM

SurreySinger, it also includes John Adams to whom I was replying ,.
mistakes are fine if organisations/people learn from them ,and EFDSS needs to learn from past mistakes,I hope it is not too late.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 01:02 PM

Captain - all of us (members or not) have been asked to lay off - that includes both me, and you ... none of this discussion is helping anyone - nor does it help to keep on harping on about past problems, financial, organisational or otherwise , or comparing the EFDSS to other organisations with dissimilar funding/staffing and aims.

I would echo what concertina ceol said earlier in the thread "We should leave this subject alone now" - which I intend to do!!!

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 12:52 PM

I get told off by Ruth Archer for mudslinging,and told off by you for praising the hardworking volunteers.
It seems to me that you and certain other EFDSS members are unnecessarily defensive.It seems EFDSS cant bear any criticism.
Please feel free to tell us what all the volunteers are doing.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: johnadams
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 12:21 PM

I do read your posts Dick and because of reading them, I suspect that you don't really know how many the 'many others' actually is, or what the 'many others' actually do.

Consequently, I get a bit uncomfortable being one of only two periodically mentioned in this context .

J

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 12:13 PM

I said and many others.,Please read my posts.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: johnadams
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 10:56 AM

Captain,

I'd be obliged if you didn't keep singling me out by referring to my 'hard work'. Yes, some of my contribution is apparent because I post here, but there are literally SCORES of people working as volunteers for the efdss - not just me (and Malcolm).

... and I'd be surprised if you know what we actually do.

J

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: GUEST,Adam Lesson
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 10:45 AM

Captain Birdseye wrote

EFDSS owes everyone interested in folk music explanations, whether they are members or ex members,.

Why? If they are not getting government funding and the only income is from members and selling stuff, why do they owe anybody but their members an explanation about anything at all?

None of MY money (taxes OR membership subscription) is being spent by them so it's none of my business OR YOURS!

AL

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 10:35 AM

no ,I have praised the hard work of John Adams, Malcolm Douglas and many others ,that is not mudslinging..
EFDSS for some years ,has been having financial problems,that is not mudslinging,that is a fact. EFDSS owes everyone interested in folk music explanations, whether they are members or ex members,.
I agree members have a right to know first.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 10:08 AM

"[presumably as aresult of financial mis management]."

Presumed by whom? On what evidence are you basing this presumption? Organisations restructure all the time; sometimes (in fact, most of the time) there will be jobs lost as a result of streamlining and an attempt to deliver more efficient working practice.

I'm not saying I'm not sympathetic to anyone who might be facing job loss, but I do think that such "presumptions" by the general public are misleading and unhelpful. EFDSS has a responsibility to its membership to offer value for money; in restructuring the staff at C#H, perhaps this is what they're trying to do. In any case, no formal statement has yet been made, and they certainly don't owe you any explanations, Dick, as you're not even a member.

It does occur to me that you engage in an awful lot of mudslinging where EFDSS is concerned, though. I'd love to know what your motives really are. And if you responsd, see if you can do it without mentioning Comhaltas.

Go on. Think of it as a challenge.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: concertina ceol
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 08:47 AM

Redundancy is covered by some very strict employment laws. We should leave this subject alone now. I haven't posted on this thread since one of the NC members asked us not to.
What we could do is join the society and ask our friends etc. if they are members and also buy from the shop so that the society has some funds. All the best to everyone trying to sort this out.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 08:38 AM

Captain - the second post which may, or may not be authoritative, refers to a six week consultation period.The first post also makes it clear that what you are referring to is a rumour - furthermore, Robbie stated quite clearly in his first post "Announcements will be made and information given as and when appropriate".

Clearly the time at present is NOT appropriate - if the NC have anything to say to the outside world (and I would hope that they would say it to those immediately affected first, then possibly the membership if it affects them, before the outside world) then I am sure they will do so. Posts like your last one are not much help to anyone ... especially since you're neither a member of staff, nor a member of the Society.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 08:00 AM

the very first post,suggests that a number of staff have been made redundant[presumably as aresult of financial mis management].
that was over a week ago, is there any up to date news.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: nutty
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 12:45 PM

Thanks for the explanation, Malcolm. However, Communication is the name of the game and I for one, (I'm sure there must be others), am very grateful that the situation has been made clear.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 11:50 AM

my comments are informed ,EFDSS has been mismanaged in the past.
my information was correct as regarding the disbanding of branches,Malcolm Douglas that is informed comment,CCE also generates revenue from its competitions and Fleadhs,EFDSS does not as it nolonger runs feStivals or competitions,This is not uninformed comment.http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 07:50 PM

It is nevertheless also the case that good publicity is usually better than bad; and that informed comment is generally more helpful than other kinds.

I can assure anyone who imagines that digitising the collections and putting them online would be in any way simple or cheap that that is not the case. Neither can it safely be done by well-intentioned amateurs; with the greatest respect to all such people (and they include me) that is one reason why the existing catalogues have to be revised and corrected, and why the collections themselves are not necessarily in such good order as might be wished. A lot of things happened in the years before Malcolm Taylor became Librarian at the VWML that will take a long time yet to put right. As it happens, a grant application for at least partial digitisation of some of the MS material is currently underway; whether or not it will be successful remains to be seen.

Organisations, whether charitable or not, don't publish lists of things they have looked into but decided against, or of failed grant applications. Many of the suggestions made here are sufficiently obvious to have been examined in considerable depth already, of course; including possible partnerships with universities; Sheffield having been one with which discussions took place a few years ago. As John has already pointed out, that can be a perilous road to take. NATCECT (Sheffield) has lost most of its staff, and its collections have always been less accessible than are those held at Cecil Sharp House. John Widdowson was my departmental tutor in my student days, and I took folklore studies with him as part of my degree. Much as I love my old university, I find it hard to forgive their shameful neglect of what ought to have become the English equivalent of the School of Scottish Studies.

It is, however, immensely encouraging to hear that the Traditional Drama Research Group site is now hosted by EFDSS. It will be safer there than it was when hosted by my old college.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 06:59 PM

JohnAdams,as I have said before there is no such thing as bad publicity,glad I have helped efdss sales,in the internet shop.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: GUEST,cliff
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 04:26 PM

@John Adams

Right. Maybe there's something to that "parallel folk universe" thing.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: johnadams
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 04:10 PM

Yes Steve, work in progress.

There will always be the detractors and those who insist that the efdss is this and that because it was so 3 decades ago, but we don't mind them.

In fact they can be quite useful because every time there's a little spat on Mudcat the sales go up in the internet shop.

Thankyou to those people who have contacted me or Robbie offering support in various ways. We'll be pleased to hear from any others.

J

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: oggie
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 03:16 PM

Cheers John,

Looks like you're a way down the road. So the reality seems to be that a lot is happening and with goodwill and co-operation more will follow. Work is in progress so to speak. Is that a reasonable reading of the situation?

All the best

Steve Ogden

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: johnadams
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 02:17 PM

Checking further, it's already badged EFDSS at the bottom of the page.

..... and additionally we'll be hosting a new International Mummers directory if the technical aspects check out. It's on my 'to do' list (which is quite long!)

J

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: johnadams
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 01:12 PM

Oggie,


Whilst this site is under the auspices of Sheffield University
it gives an example of what is possible

Folkplay

All the best

Steve

Actually, this site is now hosted on the EFDSS server and will soon be badged as such.

Sheffield University allegedly wanted it moved off so we offered to host it. As far as I know it's been transferred and is waiting to be tidied up.

J

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: Canberra Chris
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 11:43 AM

I live in Australia. I dropped into the Library at Cecil Sharp House a few years ago, in the hope of finding a couple of songs that had haunted me for years since I had lost the books they were in. The library staff were just wonderful, and found both songs for me. One was 'Three Danish Galleys', about a Viking raid on Porlock, collected I think by Cecil Sharp. Because the library found it for me, I will shortly be able to sing it at the Bude festival, further along the same coastline, as I am on my way over to tour with the Shiny Bum Singers.

I am also bringing over with me to the library on behalf of Lyn and Evan Mathieson a copy of Evan's CD of Harry Robertson songs, which I helped them launch at Easter in Canberra, to lodge in the collection, because a copy should be there.

On my last trip I also visited and sang at Sharps, and was delighted to find that almost all the members were themselves folksingers. To hear thirty or so new voices in an evening was a treat indeed for me. I was asked to return and sing, and did so twice. On my first return the MC of the first evening saw me come through the door, and by the time I reached the bar, there was a pint already drawn for me.

That sort of welcome and atmosphere leaves a lasting impression, and an inclination to offer a positive opinion of the place and people concerned, and the hope that they will not themselves be discouraged by the disconcerting experience of being argued about while they go about the business of fulfilling their charter, apparently to the letter, and with respect to the beer somewhat beyond the call of duty.

Thanks also to our friend from Portugal, Balsto da Loteya, for his pertinent thread message above, from a similar distance and perhaps sentiment.

Cheers,
Chris

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: nutty
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 11:25 AM

I didn't ralise that there was such an interesting archive there John. Thank you for pointing that out.

Link to NATCECT Archive Info

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: johnadams
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 10:40 AM

Although partnerships have been explored, there is no such formal collaboration at this stage, partly due to the type of problem with universities that was expressed earlier in this thread.

On that subject, I have heard it rumoured (but not had it confirmed) that the NATCECT library has been absorbed into the main university library, thus diluting the vision that Professor John Widdowson had for the Centre.

Perhaps there are university partnerships to be had, but they certainly need approaching with care.

J

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: nutty
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 10:25 AM

I can understand that in respect to the AHRB after reading the mission statements of the AHRC
HERE
the collaberation already established with Sheffield and Aberdeen Universities , may make the EFDSS eligible

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: oggie
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 10:24 AM

Whilst this site is under the auspices of Sheffield University
it gives an example of what is possible

Folkplays

All the best

Steve

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: johnadams
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 10:13 AM

John you describe CSH as non-academic with regard to its collections. Personally I can think of nothing that deserves the 'academic' title more than the premier collection of folk music resources in the country.


I agree, but AHRB doesn't, in that we are apparently not eligible to apply.

J

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: nutty
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 10:10 AM

More examples here about how sound files are dealt with.....


Honking Duck

Max Hunter Collection

I would like to take issue with GUEST Sue ...

    'if everything is just online then that is NOT accessible to everyone, because everyone isn't online.'
I agree that not every on is on line at present but what about in 5years, 10 years etc. If you don't start planning for the future now it will never happen. Also many people are not on line because they don't know what is available on the Internet or where or how to find things.

John you describe CSH as non-academic with regard to its collections. Personally I can think of nothing that deserves the 'academic' title more than the premier collection of folk music resources in the country.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: Grimmy
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 09:57 AM

John,

I don't have a social life ;-)

Seriously, I know these applications take time, money and effort but, as you intimated, they don't HAVE to be processed by EDFSS staff alone (although their co-operation would be essential of course).

And the rewards could be well worth the effort, as other organisations have found.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: johnadams
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 09:14 AM

Having said that, don't let me put anyone off. We would welcome with open arms ANY volunteer with funding application writing expertise to help us with all manner of applications, not necessarily 'the big one' ie. digitise the library.

I have half a dozen project ideas on the stocks which could go forward with some funding for competent project managers.

J

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: johnadams
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 09:05 AM

Yes Grimmy, it would.

Would you like to join in as a volunteer and write yet another application? It would only take a year or so out of your social life.

I'm not being snotty or disrespectful - it's just that these phrases are so easy to slip into a forum conversation but when you look at the reality, the development of funding applications at that level is very time consuming and inevitably soaks up money or staff time that has to be diverted from other activities. We know that because we've got lottery funding applications in progress at the moment.

J

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: Grimmy
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 08:43 AM

Would this not be a prime candidate for Lottery funding?

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: GUEST,Knute
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 08:43 AM

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: danensis
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 04:04 PM

The other reason that location is important is the high rent and rates in London, and the inflated salaries that have to be paid.

Huh? Ask any member of staff about their alleged 'inflated salaries'

Many of them work there (especially in the library) because they're committed to supporting the aims of EFDSS, not because it pays well.
Knute