What's Happening with EFDSS?

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: greg stephens
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 06:16 AM

At the risk of being pedantic, I think Robbie Thomas' EFDSS mission statement should refer to "ethnic minority groups", rather than "ethnic groups". Or perhaps they really meant "ethnic groups"? It's adodgy area.
    And on that point, I have spent a considerable amount of the last five years working closely with ethnic minority groups recording bits of hardcore traditional folk music from the various recent immigrants to Stoke-on-Trent. What is the EFDSS actually doing in this line? I wouldn't have thought it had any resources for systematic work in this line, but it would be wondereful to get a bit of support from them. I didn't think it was really their territory.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 06:12 AM

Thanks for the long post Robbie, it was very useful for this Yorgo-come-lately. But to move away from written statements and constitutions and onto more practical things: How can the ordinary folkie punter help? OK, become a member is an obvious one, but is that all? Is £33 from each one of us all that is needed to put things onto a proper footing? The majority of English folkies on this board live well outside London, so volunteered time at C#H is not an option for most.

Practical ideas please...

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: GUEST,Robbie H Thomas
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 05:57 AM

Anahata

I don't disagree with your analysis of the difference between the aims of the two organisations EFDSS and CCE - but they are very different organisations and (as I keep saying) the EFDSS just now is where the EFDSS is just now....

However I do disagree a bit with your "devilish" conclusions from the EFDSS mssion statement..

Maintain:- to maintain the status quo is to die ... to maintain itself an organisation must continuously evolve - perhaps not a bit that EFDSS has been much good at.. until now :-)

Centre of Excellence:- a place where everyone can find best practice, best resources etc

Study and Practice:- I wouldn't call the VWML dusty..... and Kennedy has a great dance floor and fab acoustics if you're not using megawatts of PA (and Trefusis is a great dance and song space too)

Dissemination:- we've got to spread it about, but remember that EFDSS is a Trustee of the VWML and (to me) this really refers to the wealth of knowledge in the library. Promotion is a different matter and is now my responsibility... promotion takes money.... Give EFDSS your cash!!! :-)

... and the bit about diversity and equality...? It's nothing to do with PC, it's all to do with an organisation's values... if EFDSS isn't celebrating diversity and promoting equality in this land of ours then (IMHO) it isn't worthy of being in existence...and I wouldn't have any part of it...

As I wrote earlier on in this thread.....
The agreed and declared Strategy of the EFDSS is:
1. EFDSS will commit itself to a major renovation of Cecil Sharp House which will greatly increase the capacity of the VWML; enable the collection to be preserved in accordance with professional standards, renovate the performance spaces; increase the areas also suitable for commercial letting (in order to offset running costs); add an exhibition space and an interactive "museum" space and significantly rework the public areas.
2. Nationally, EFDSS will continue with and expand its outreach programme by disseminating information through the VWML; through EFDSS publications; through its education programme and by providing access to its extensive network of folk contacts.
3. Locally, EFDSS will concentrate on outreach projects that: promote use of the VWML through educational activities; and that promote use of CSH through folk activities (particularly those involving children, the disabled, the elderly and ethnic groups).
4. EFDSS will give priority to programmes and projects which can be developed in partnership with other organisations.

That strategy is what EFDSS can achieve as it stands at this point in time. Every one of the NC has great ideas and great plans for what could be done in the future. A journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step... EFDSS is taking that now.

Promotion is where I come in as the NC portfolio holder for that very area. Promotion takes people, time and money, but most importantly it takes a plan and that's being worked on now. There's a whole pile of stuff that needs to be done in this regard and a couple of us are starting the process of putting ducks in line in between our day jobs. We'll be looking for help as well when the time comes for implementation, so don't be surprised if you (and many others) get a tap on the shoulder from me and an offer you can't understand....

In the meantime I'll take all the money I can raise for the EFDSS Promotions warchest... cheques/cash/negotiable bonds etc to EFDSS please with a note saying that the money is to be used for the promotion of traditional music, dance and song.... and while you're at it, don't forget to join the Society if you haven't already!

On the advocacy bit - EFDSS needs to do work there.... that will happen as the promotion plan implements...

In terms of support for teaching - that is one area where EFDSS has put a lot of effort (although I have heard criticism of its past work there too). There's the education resources on the webshop (http://folkshop.efdss.org/educational/index.htm), but for more specific advice I would contact CSH. There's a revitalised Education Committee building up a fair head of steam so I'm certain that if you ask the question there'll be a stack of help and support flyng your way in very short order.

On the London-centric bit - absolutely agree with your suggestion and it's something that is high up on my promotions agenda - plan, money, time and people are the gating factors - as some Greek bloke once said (in paraphrase), "give me a lever and a fulcrum and I'll move the Earth...." .... I'm a bit short of either just at the minute.... but give me time....

You're right, it is easy to get bogged down in politics in any organisation - the answer that I've found is to ignore the politics, get on with the job in hand and fight your corner ruthlessly - I spent 18 years at senior management levels in a Japanese multinational electronics corporation... coming from that background, EFDSS politics aren't REAL politics.... and if the politicos in EFDSS think that they can make this particular newbie retire hurt.... well they're in for a bit of a shock, aren't they? :-)

Thanks for the good wishes, they're sincerely much appreciated. I know that there is much wrong with EFDSS, and I passionately want it to survive. Last summer I spent a rainy day at the Pinewoods Camp in Massachussets during American Week reading Cecil Sharp's correspondence with his sponsors in the US who enabled him to undertake his collecting in the Appalachians. What came across was his absolute enthusiasm for the work he was doing and his determination to somehow get it done by scrounging, begging, scraping, starving and risking his own health to get the work completed. We all know that Cecil was no virtuous angel, but we do owe him an enormous debt for preserving so much of our traditional heritage. He put the welfare of his family, his life and Maude on the line to collect these songs and, whatever you think of his motives, we each owe it to the cultural heritage of our nation to follow in his footsteps and to do as much as we possibly can to preserve (and develop and promote) his work and all that preceded and followed on from it.

As Barbara so eloquently puts it in her last post ... "Please, those of you who value our heritage, get in there and help!"

Robbie

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 05:15 AM

Robbie,it was not I that mentioned other organisations springing up around the country and replacing EFDSS.
Iknow full well where efdss is coming from..
I have been a professional folksinger for over thirty years,and I [along with many other professional folk singers]have done more to PROMOTE English folksong,than EFDSS with its passive attitude towards song,.
yes some of our material has come from Cecil sharp house and I appreciate that,but it has been myself and other singers that have promoted it.
I also believe the LACK of promotion of english folk song by EFDSS,was accelerated when they withdrew from running festivals.
letting professional organisers run folk festivals is no guarantee that ENGLISH Folk music will be promoted.
Iwould be happierto see EFDSS running festivals.[they used to manage it very well].

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: BB
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 04:05 AM

Hooray! Well said, Robbie!

Oh, and further to what I said above about where artists get their material from, this in relation to the song 'Master Kilby' came up on uk.music.folk over the last couple of days -

"Where did Nic Jones get this from?
>>
>>
>> From the Journals of the Folk Song Society (it says on the back of
>> From the
>> Devil to a Stranger).
>
>
> Muchly ta!

Specifically, from the 'Journal of the Folk-Song Society' volume 5
(issue number 20) 1916, p.272."

For those who don't know, the Folk-Song Society was the fore-runner of EFDSS before it joined with the English Folk Dance Society.

It is unlikely that Nic had a full set of the Folk Song Journals (there are relatively few around), so he probably went to the library at CSH and found it. And that is the only source of the song, so without the Society, either in the distant past or when he visited the House, it would not have been in his repertoire.

Please, those of you who value our heritage, get in there and help!

Barbara

Barbara

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: treewind
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 03:57 AM

Fascinating to see the aims of CCE listed next to those of EFDSS. Every item in CCE's list is quite specific, clear and understandable, while the EFDSS has three aims, two of which are vague (see below) and the third of which, while entirely worthy, is put there for political correctness reasons, possibly to deflect any potential criticism that it's a nationalist organisation.

It gives the impression that CCE knows where it's going while EFDSS isn't really going anywhere.

I'm really playing devil's advocate here, but bear with me for a moment while we take another look at the wording of this:
maintain itself : don't change anything!
as a centre of excellence : charter for centralism and elitism!
for the study, practice : that looks dusty and academic!
and dissemination : not promotion - oh, no that would be far too pushy and commercial!
of traditional English folk song, dance and music; : that bit's OK...

English trad music needs promoting. Most English people don't know it exists and when do they hear it they think it's something foreign. For example: is the EFDSS doing anything to dissuade the BBC from dropping folk programs from local and national radio? What support would I get if I wanted to start teaching kids trad English music or morris dancing, the equivalent of what Comhaltas does?

Good luck, Robbie. I do want the EFDSS to succeed, and I've seen many people join it with the attitude: "don't just criticise it, join it and change it" and then retire hurt after being bogged down with political intransigence within. I do feel that the current onslaught of change from active members of the society is dragging it screaming into the 21st century. Keep up the good work!

There is a lot going on in C# house. It would be nice if the EFDSS could afford the higher visibility of running events etc. outside London. That might defuse some of the "London-centric" criticism.

Anahata

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: GUEST,Robbie H Thomas
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 07:21 PM

>Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
>From: Captain Birdseye
>Date: 20 Apr 07 - 04:51 AM
>TO guest Robbie Thomas,does the EFDSS still have branches.if not >why were they disbanded.
>CCEstrength lies in its branches getting involved in the local >communities,which they do in Ireland,America,andEngland.
>when Iwas living in nottingham circa 1989,itwas CCE notEFDSS,that >was teaching local nottingham [english as well as Irish]childrenhow >tyo play musical instruments.

Captain - sitting here at home, I don't know the exact answer as to why the branches were closed, although I understand (from the time when I often visited the Liverpool EFDSS Branch office during my Silly Wizard days when we were thesping at the Liverpool Everyman with Julie Walters, Pete Postlethwaite, Bill Nighy et al) that it was a decision taken by one of the past Chief Officers of the EFDSS (but others will know better than I).

I am in total agreement with you about CCE - it does a great job - I've been to many a CCE event and back in 1975 SW regularly had a couple of Liverpool CCE hard-shoe dancers joining us for encores at our Liverpool concerts (and this was 20 years before Riverdance)... We also went to the Liverpool CCE events a lot back then ... and to a lot of very good sessions. Nowadays I go to a fine CCE session in Northampton whenever I can - it's great to sit next to a 12 year-old who can play like Martin Hayes, but it's even better to sit next to a 10 year-old who has just taken up playing guitar behind tunes and showing him a few of the "old dog's tricks" whilst learning tunes from a white-haired box player who has a repertoire of tune variants and tunes that I haven't heard before... and then there's a really good English session not a milllion miles from where I live now that I must get to soon.....

However I don't see the two organisations (EFDSS and CCE) as mutually exclusive or that one is "better" than the other. Each works according to its own lights and each fulfils a different and no less important role in their communities.

CCE is is a cultural movement concerned with the promotion and preservation of the music, dance and language of Ireland. Its goals are:
To promote Irish Traditional Music in all its forms;
To restore the playing of the Harp and Uilleann Pipes in the National life of Ireland;
To promote Irish Traditional Dancing;
To foster and promote the Irish language at all times;
To create a closer bond among all lovers of Irish music;
To co-operate with all bodies working for the restoration or Irish Culture;
To establish Branches throughout the country and abroad to achieve the foregoing aims and objects

EFDSS is a UK national folk organisation and the Trustee of the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library, whose goal is to develop its resources, to:
•maintain itself as a centre of excellence for the study, practice and dissemination of traditional English folk song, dance and music;
•provide national and local outreach services that enable and increase access;
•celebrate diversity and promote equality.

These are two very different approaches to the teaching and preservation of the traditional music of the UK and Eire and I would argue that each are equally valid, each are of equal and immense importance and each are equally deserving of the utmost respect for the work that they are attempting to do.

As a piper, I am a member of Na Piobhari Uilleann, whose aim is the promotion generally of Irish music and the music of the uilleann pipes in particular... I'm also a member of the Country Dance and Song Society in the USA - both these organisations have different aims and promotional/teaching approaches to EFDSS and CCE. I don't see any conflict in these differences and I don't regard one as being better than the other. I pay my subs to them all as I get something I want from them and/or I believe that they should be supported.

Just as an aside, I've seen a lot of "complaints" about the fact that CSH is in London. It is! That's a fact. CCE headquarters is in Dublin as is the NPU's. CDSS's headquarters is in Massachussets - so what? If I want information, then I call, email, write or phone. So, to me, the location (from the point of view of contacting the organisation) is irrelevant. No matter where the organisation is, only a limited number of people will ever be able to physically get to it - so let's just drop that argument. London is easily accessible from all over the UK - it's just a matter of cost if you want to go there in person... which is the same argument you'd get if it was in Newcastle, Birmingham or Leeds.

On the "events are only for Londoners" side, I suppose that the only solution is to close CSH to events, and just treat the House as a rental income generator supporting the Library... if I can be persuaded that that will encourage those based in the provinces to join or rejoin EFDSS and pay their subs I'll happily put it to the EFDSS NC financial sub-committee for consideration.

Of course, that means that all this folk activity will have to go somewhere else or disappear (This is the May programme- but most months are pretty similar in number and scope):

1         Tues        Cotswold Morris
                Sharps Folk Club
                Salsa and Latin
                Clog Dancing Workshop
2         Wed        Various Latin
                Fiddle Class - Irish Traditional
3         Thur        Thursday Beginners Plus, country dancing)
                Irish Set Dancing, all levels,
4         Fri        File Gumbo, Cajun dance and music
                Friday Feet
5         Sat        Hellzapoppin' - Lindy Hop, jive, swing etc,
6         Sun         Baroque dance
8         Tues        Cotswold Morris
                Sharps Folk Club
                Salsa and Latin
9         Wed         Various Latin
                Fiddle Class - Irish Traditional
10         Thur         Thursday Beginners Plus,)
                Irish Set Dancing, all levels,
11         Fri         Scottish Ceilidh Club
                Friday Feet,
12         Sat         London Barndance Co,
                Balkanplus Group
13         Sun         Breton dance
                 Beyond Marrow Bones: Hammond and Gardiner
                SIFD Social, International folk Dance
14         Mon         Slovak Dance
                Monday Musicians:
15         Tues         Cotswold Morris
                Sharps Folk Club
                Salsa and Latin
                Clog Dancing Workshop
16        Wed        Wednesday Workshops (
                Various Latin Dances
                Fiddle Class - Irish Traditional
17        Thu        Thursday Beginners Plus,
                Irish Set Dancing, all levels,
18        Fri        English Ceilidh: Knees Up
                Friday Feet,)
19        Sat        MAY FETE
20        Sun        Quadrille Club
                Chantraine School of Dance festival:
21        Mon        Let's Really Dance!
22        Tue        Cotswold Morris
                Sharps Folk Club,
                Salsa and Latin Dance
23        Wed        Various Latin Dances
                Fiddle Class - Irish Traditional
24        Thu        Thursday Beginners Plus,
                Irish Set Dancing, all levels,
25        Fri        Scottish Ceilidh Club
                Friday Feet
29        Tue        Cotswold Morris,
                Sharps Folk Club
                Salsa and Latin Dance
30        Wed        Wednesday Workshops English/American social dance
                Various Latin Dances
                Fiddle Class - Irish Traditional
31        Thu        Thursday Beginners Plus,
                Irish Set Dancing, all levels,

Other people's mileages may vary, but if we are to pass our folk heritage on to our children we need to support every organisation that tries to do just that. I'm sick to the back teeth of the carping that goes on about what happened back in the last century - we've only got this life to make a difference... and if I don't make that difference by singing, playing and supporting this music now my grandson may never hear Joseph Taylor singing Unto Brigg Fair....

Having said all that and getting back on topic.... as I said in my earlier post - I do have criticisms of the EFDSS (which is why I am involved in trying to help it sort itself out) however I do passionately believe that if EFDSS isn't a strong organisation then we may well lose the open access to the VWML - just think how much a university would pay for that treasure trove!!! - and we will lose the one organisation that holds the single most important collection of treaditional English (and plenty of other - you should see the Jimmy Shand collection) language folk music song and dance.

The Scottish equivalent of the VWML is, I suppose, the School of Scottish Studies.... I don't know what would happen if you pitched up there at 11am on a Saturday morning looking for the verses of Child 33 because you had a recording session down the road and you'd left your copy of Child at home.... but I'll bet that there isn't a Malcolm there to make you a cup of coffee and sit you down with paper and pencil...

Unfortunately, English music hasn't yet found its Riverdance that pulls its diaspora and audiences seeking a theatrical night out into a massive, multi-national tourist generator where the millions of tourist Euros that come into a nation of 3.5m people can be linked directly to the music itself. England doesn't have the tartan history and heritage of Scotland that fascinates its massive diaspora and a relatively massive tourist industry that brings millions of pounds into a nation of 5.5m people.

What we seem to have in England is a country that sees no value in its national music (Cecil Sharp was hoping for an English Bartok, for God's sake), has a media that lampoons it at every turn and a society in general that turns its back on its national customs unless it's a quaint little hobby horse at Sidmouth. Contrast that with the way that the Scots and the Irish have put their music at the heart of their countries' marketing plans. Back in the late 70's Silly Wizard did a stack of gigs for the Scottish Tourist Board promoting Scotland to tour operators, airlines and the like. We did dozens of gigs on BBC and Independent radio and TV stations in Scotland - it got to the point where in one week we played to sell out audiences in both the Playhouse and the Usher Hall in Edinburgh...that's how much the music of Scotland was valued in Scotland..... I've never seen anything like that down in England - at least not since the Spinners were on BBC TV in the days of Black and White.....and even in those days the Corries sold out the Albert Hall faster than the Spinners and sold a damn sight more LP's....

Personally, and alongside my EFDSS National Council colleagues, I'm doing everything I can to get EFDSS into a position to be not only/just the guardian of the VWML, but also to become a relevant, proactive organisation. While the carping and internal and external back-biting has been going on inside EFDSS since 1986, other organisations (as you pointed out earlier)have sprung up around the land doing much of what EFDSS might have done if things had been different. Things weren't different so we are where we are.   

Some of these new bodies are commercial organisations relying on grants to pay their way, some are charitable bodies relying on grants and donations, some are a mix of the two. All of them are doing great work. However, none of them has the responsibility of maintaining the UK's only national, public access, traditional music archive - and this responsibility is the EFDSS's challenge, burden and privilege. If there were no Vaughan Williams Memorial Library, EFDSS could sell CSH, have a nice little office somewhere in the middle of nowhere, run a wee webshop and organise the odd summer camp. But there is a Library, EFDSS holds it in trust for all of us, and it has to be paid for with very little in the way of external grant funding, just the profit from CSH, surplus from membership subscriptions and profit from publications.

Unfortunately, core costs don't easily attract funding in this era of projects, goals and outcomes... it isn't easy to get a grant when the only outcome possible is that the library will still open its doors in 2008 - that doesn't get the funder a big headline or a tick in a box on some governmental performance measurement scale.

So Captain, please try to understand where EFDSS has come from, where it is now and that it genuinely is trying to develop and to work towards its future. There are huge challenges ahead for it. I hope that everyone who values the traditional music, dance and song of England will get involved and help the Society. If you genuinely want to help - at the very least, join the Society and pay the subscription which goes towards enabling the Society to achieve its mission. If you can't afford the sub (and also if you can), then come along and help out as a volunteer. Failing that, send a donation or send us constructive ideas for income generation or things that we could or should be doing and suggest ways that we can find the resources (people/money/places) carry them out.

EFDSS needs to change, EFDSS wants to change and EFDSS needs help to change.

EFDSS needs effort from all of us who value our traditional folk arts to preserve, promote and disseminate a vitally important archive of our national heritage .... but even if we don't agree with everything that EFDSS does or how it does it, the most important thing of all is that we all do something, no matter how small or how big, to ensure that the music, song, dance and traditions that are the most important jewels in the various national heritages of our islands survive to be passed on to future generations....

For the remaining 5 years of my(maximum)term as a EFDSS National Council member I know what I'll be working towards. I hope that many more people will join me (and the other Society members and volunteers) by joining the Society and/or by actively getting involved in the Society. If we can make the necessary difference, then we will have ensured that that a great and unique archive remains freely available to everyone who comes to its door for generations to come ... my task for the next 5 years is to help ensure that that happens...

I hope that the length of this post hasn't bored you all to death - as you might have guessed, the subject is fairly important to me :-)

Robbie

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: RTim
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 02:03 PM

Hi - I have just had another bunch of copying from mircofilm done by the library - cost with postage to the US -£28!
This is about the 3rd or 4th lot of copying they have done for me. I just write a request and it is happily filled in a few days - no problem, I just have to fill out a copyright form and presto!
The staff are great, always helpful and pleasant, and that is also true of the only actual visit I have managed as yet - Living now in the USA visits to the library are not that easy - so all you people who moan about being remote - just use e-mail and post! They also have telephones!!
Even though they deal in traditional material - they are very up to date!

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: GUEST,Knute
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 11:50 AM

Service level*

Express 5 day delivery £180 per operator hour (£42.50 minimum)

Standard Plus 20 day delivery £105 per operator hour (£32 minimum)

Standard 40 day delivery £42 per operator hour (£21 minimum)


This looks like duplication charges. In other words for copying something. I don't believe the library at EFDSS provides a formal service like that. But you could always ask. In either case (I have had to request copies of something from the British Library) they require permission from the copyright holder, or the collector in the case of field recordings
K

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: GUEST,Somebody who can browse for info
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 09:19 AM

Is this what you mean?

Service level*

Express 5 day delivery £180 per operator hour (£42.50 minimum)

Standard Plus 20 day delivery £105 per operator hour (£32 minimum)

Standard 40 day delivery £42 per operator hour (£21 minimum)


What do the efdss charge?

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 09:12 AM

Seen the British Library´s charges for sound recordings?

http://www.bl.uk/collections/sound-archive/transcription.html

You may need to scroll down.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: GUEST,Somebody who can browse for info
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 09:03 AM

From their website

Tuesday to Friday 09.30 to 17.30 (sometimes closed for lunch) and first and third Saturdays each month, 10:00 to 16:00. The Sound Library is closed 12.00 to 14.00 every day.

not quite as good as the british library who can afford to open every saturday but then they've got a bit of funding.......

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: nutty
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 08:27 AM

Surely the main problem regarding accessibility is opening times. Wherever the EFDSS is located, if it still insists on shutting up shop at weekends, it is going to suffer from lack of support.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 08:24 AM

I have been to CecilSharp house many times in the past,have been booked there three times at least,it is actually a ten to fifteen minute walk from a tube station.[some people havesaid they have been intimidated by this,particuarly late at night]
I now live in Ireland.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: GUEST,Knute
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 08:16 AM

Captain B
Pity the poor souls who have to live in London. . .
C Sharp House is accessable by public transport. It's on a bus route that goes directly from Kings Cross / St Pancras station, it's a ten minute walk from the tube station and about two minutes from the Regent's Canal if you fancy coming by boat or via the tow path. While the entire building is not yet accessible to the disabled, there have been changes made so that the ground floor is. Considering the cost and major work invovled in upgrading a grade II listed building (and lack of money to do this)this is measurable progress. From as far away as Japan and Australia make the journey to use the Library, it's a shame many English people are not as motivated.

The 'You' in my previous post wasn't directed at anyone in particular, but a collective pronoun.

All of you folks who have strong ideas about what EFDSS should and shouldn't do, ought to join, become active members, and make your voices heard. If you are a member, write to the NEC. One of the biggest problems the Society has is apathetic members. Letting off steam in cyberspace will not change anything. Get involved, or as my father would say 'put up or shut up'
K (yes I am a member)

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 07:56 AM

excellent news,well done Ruth.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 07:53 AM

We're doing a week-long folk summerschool this year, Dick, to be delivered by Shooting Roots, and we're very excited by it. The age range is 12 - 18, so slightly higher than the age we normally target. Some subsidy we've managed to secure means we can offer a whole week of activity for just £35 per child. Tuition will be both vocal and instrumental.

It's an opportunity for kids whose parents might not have the time or money to take them to a big festival to still benefit from the same kind of learning opportunity.

In the autumn, funding permitting, we're hoping to launch a more long-term folk music project in schools. In the past we've concentrated mostly on dance; now we want to look more at playing and singing.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 07:48 AM

I dislike going to london.
wherever Cecil sharp house is, it needs to be near a railway station,it should also have good disabled access.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 07:29 AM

And I live just outside the M25, 25 miles from Camden, yet I hate going into London (nothing to do with terrorism, I just don't like it) and would happily drive 50 miles up the M1 instead.

But that's just personal foibles - one cannot expect the EFDSS to relocate or reopen branches on that reasoning!

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: GUEST,The black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 07:24 AM

I know some folkies who will not visit London. There are various reasons given for their dislike, including, I'm afraid, the possibilty of terrorist activity. I know the statistcs but this doesn't change their opinions.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 05:46 AM

guest knute,Iam notwrong ,Its Gadaffi that is wrong.
Ruth can you tell us more about the summer schools project ,it sounds like a good idea.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: greg stephens
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 05:41 AM

Personally, I like the odd trip from the frozen north to London to research in Cecil Sharp House. For a country bumpkin such as myself, the great metropolis is quite exciting in small doses. I dont think I would get the same buzz from going to Lichfield or Coventry or Meriden or wherever they decided to locate to in order to find a more central location.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: Stu
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 05:23 AM

Knute: It's true the staff provide a valuable service via snail mail and email - the value of this service is not in doubt or dispute. Part of the overall discussion is about making the whole library (but the sound archive especially) more accessible to people who can't get to London.

Who wouldn't want to browse and discover the treasures to be heard in there?

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 05:16 AM

The history of EFDSS will be published later this year, Dick - you can read all about why and when the regional branches were disbanded.

As it happens (and as I've mentioned earlier), EFDSS are partnering my venue in the Shooting Roots summerschool we're running this summer. I'm hoping they'll also partner some long-term instrumental tuition we're currently planning.

More partnerships with delivery organisations and development agencies in the regions are, as I understand it, one of the strategies currently in the pipeline. I reckon this is the way to develop a stronger regional profile, and it's good to know that the society is embracing such ideas.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: GUEST,Knute
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 04:59 AM

You are completely wrong about the Librarian's post, EFDSS pays his salary.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 04:51 AM

TO guest Robbie Thomas,does the EFDSS still have branches.if not why were they disbanded.
CCEstrength lies in its branches getting involved in the local communities,which they do in Ireland,America,andEngland.
when Iwas living in nottingham circa 1989,itwas CCE notEFDSS,that was teaching local nottingham [english as well as Irish]childrenhow tyo play musical instruments.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: GUEST,Knute
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 04:48 AM

Well some of you hayseeds in the provinces are missing out on a good thing. Do you know that the library staff at EFDSS answers queries and sends information to researchers, performers and just plain folk who want to know the rest of the words to a song their granny sang - all over the world? They also manage to serve loads of foreign visitors, writers, composers, university students, professional musicians and television, radio and film producers. So why can't you be bothered to get in touch if you have a query? They've been on e-mail for eons, plus (gosh) they have phones and still get post delivered. You'd think Camden Town was in Left Armpit Slobovia the way you talk about it. Don't blame EFDSS for the fact that they're not convenient to get to when you're too lazy to even send an e-mail.

I don't usually bother to respond to these things but this is getting out of hand. So much disinformation, I almnost think some of you are making it up as you go along
I am a mudcat member, but I've forgotten how to sign in as it's been so long since I've felt moved to join in.
K

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 04:41 AM

Ruth Archer, see guest Gaddafi 18 april 11 15 am,the librarians post is funded by Douglas Kennedy trust.
what happens when there is no money left in the trust,no librarian.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 04:35 AM

Sheffield united are fourth from bottom in the premiership[ does thtat make them good]sheffield wednesday are 10 from top in the next division[possibilities for play off place].probably about as good as each other.
Ruth ArcHer,Somewhere in all this correspondence,somebody stated that the librarians job,was funded by the Douglas Kennedy trust,so the librarians post is not funded by EFDSS.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 04:21 AM

Once upon a time EFDSS ran a London folk festival at Cecil Sharp House - that's how I got to sing at concerts headlined by the High Leval Ranters and Finn and Eddy Furey... and meet Kevin Sheils, who ran the shop.

Damn I keep trying to forget those days, Kitty.

I mean running the shop, not meeting you!

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: Stu
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 04:02 AM

Barbara, I'm fully aware of where many pro singers get their songs, but that's not what I'm talking about in this case - I suppose the point I'm trying to make is many muso's who don't travel to the capital don't appear to need the EFDSS, even if they do receive songs from the library via osmosis.

But a consenus of opinion does seem to be emerging that the collection needs to be made more accessible, and this would be an important step in bringing our culture back where it belongs - with the people.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 06:20 PM

I'm sure you're right, but I reckon that as long as the library is housed at CSH and the librarian's post is funded by EFDSS, that stewardship role remains pretty strong.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 06:19 PM

Sheffield United are not a good football team,Sheffield Wednesday,may be marginally better.

I sincerely hope you know more about folk music than you do about football..............

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: GUEST,Melodeon Man
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 06:16 PM

Lottery Funding? In London?

I'd be gobsmacked if anyone other than the sodding Olympics get any money from the Lottery before 2012. I know other organisations have been turned down flat recently, and the Olympics bid has been cited as the reason why.

It was all over the Evening Standard a while back that the estimates for the Olympics have skyrocketed, and that most of the available grant money in London is being diverted towards that.

Now, if we could get the athletes to do the "100 metre Circassian Circle", I'd consider it money slightly better spent than the last white elephant (aka "The Millennium Dome").

Bah. Don't get me started.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: treewind
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 05:36 PM

It might be worth remembering that the VWML is not strictly part of the EFDSS. The EFDSS has an obligation to look after it, but I'm told it's a separate entity in some respects (don't ask me for the legal details).

Anahata

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 05:20 PM

I agree that a lot of the development work handled by FAE could once have been within EFDSS's remit, but I also think that FAE has a very wide brief. It does not have the specialist position retained by EFDSS: guardianship and stewardship of the tradition. The VWML pretty much ringfences this position for the forseeable, methinks.

Of course, making the tradition more accessible could and should be a big part of what EFDSS does in 2007 and beyond. IMHO.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: BB
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 05:19 PM

Stigweard, don't you ever listen to professional singers of traditional songs - do you ever wonder where they get their material, directly or indirectly? Nowhere else in this country is there such a collection as exists in the Library at Cecil Sharp House, and in storage there, even though at present difficult to get at.

I'm not on the National Council nor on the 'inside' these days, so I've no idea about lottery funding. Perhaps what they could do with is a fundraiser who's paid according to results, which I believe is not uncommon in the Arts world. They did get £50,000, I think, through The People's Millions on TV, but it was specifically to spruce up the outside, I believe, rather than to go into the Society's general coffers.

Barbara

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: treewind
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 05:13 PM

EFDSS is (I think) a member of Folk Arts England which is a much bigger organisation with many members (individuals, organisations or associates) and seems much more likely to get funding and be generally influential.

Arguably FAE is the group that EFDSS could have been if it had more large-scale business sense. It remains for EFDSS to find a niche that suits it, because as a national umbrella organisation it has been overtaken.

Anahata

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: Stu
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 04:57 PM

"and if all those who profess to care about our traditional heritage put time and effort and/or money into helping preserve it through EFDSS (have you every read their objects?), things would not be looking as black as many of you seem to think they are.


Good points all Barbara , but many who do care about our heritage don't feel the EFDSS is relevant to them. Lots of muso's are out here in the shires just playing the tunes and singing the songs and I don't think things are as black as people think they are.

I suppose the Society has tried to get lottery funding - what has been the result of this?

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 04:15 PM

George P - one of Herga's finest singers (Tim Edwards) did actually move to Macclesfield, where he still lives.

Once upon a time EFDSS ran a London folk festival at Cecil Sharp House - that's how I got to sing at concerts headlined by the High Leval Ranters and Finn and Eddy Furey... and meet Kevin Sheils, who ran the shop.

Kitty

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: BB
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 03:46 PM

But it's a chicken and egg situation, isn't it? I said before that the regional officers of EFDSS were made redundant in the early '80s, and there is no money to employ others now to take it back out into other areas of the country.

On the other hand, there are more folk development agencies elsewhere in the country, at least in the North East, South West and South - there are probably others - so the need for regional officers may be less than it used to be. And many of these, and other groups, are working with children as well as adults, so there's plenty going on.

It seems to me that, by and large and given the very limited resources at its disposal, the Society is concentrating on the things that matter - the library, which, even if some of is never get there, is there for research by many of the artists that you may buy CDs of or see in your local club; publications which are necessary for disseminating songs and dance tunes, amongst other things; an excellent magazine and journal; public liability insurance which is required by many venues these days; and trying to bring things into the modern world as far as it can with limited staff and volunteers. The Roud index online is indeed very useful, and the Folkopedia which John Adams has set up for EFDSS also looks as though it could be a very valuable research tool.

I'm really sad that Guest Cliff had a bad experience with the people at the House - that's not been my experience, but then I tend to be there for the library, and the staff in there are unfailingly helpful.

Yes, Dave, I heard that bit of news about the funding of Comhaltas, and boy, was I envious. How much could the Society do with that sort of funding?! And I think they have ten staff just looking after their archive!

Just so that you don't think I never criticise the Society, I think they made a big mistake in doing away with specifically regional reps. on the NEC or whatever it's called these days. I feel that it has indeed made the Society appear more London-centric, and, yes, it would probably be better if the whole kit and caboodle was transferred to Derby (which I think is about the centre of England), even though it would be even further away from me in Devon than London is. But the latter argument has been and gone, and considering how much ill-feeling it generated last time, it really wouldn't be of help to the Society to visit it again.

But it's by no means all doom and gloom, and if all those who profess to care about our traditional heritage put time and effort and/or money into helping preserve it through EFDSS (have you every read their objects?), things would not be looking as black as many of you seem to think they are.

Barbara

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: Stu
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 01:25 PM

"If you think digitising and making things available is simple, talk to Malcolm Douglas"

I know what's involved - my entire career has been spent in design and print, and I'm not saying it would be easy to do at CSH, but volunteers could help.

The funding point is interesting though - are CCE branches in the UK funded by the Irish government? If not, how are they surviving? I know there is a reluctance to compare the two organisations, but surely there is some case for doing so.

I suppose the EFDSS needs to decide what it wants to be. If it wants to build a song and dnace archive and serve the London area with live events then fine, it can stay as it is. If it wants to be a truly national organisation, bringing folk music and dance to a largely ignorant public, it'll have to venture forth from the fortress of CSH and engage the public in communities as CCE does.

Alternatively, us hayseeds in the provinces can just get on with making music and dancing as we have done since the year dot and spend the money in the pub at sessions or on CDs and books. At least that way we're involved.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 01:22 PM

Folike dave is at last talking sense,Sheffield United are not a good football team,Sheffield Wednesday,may be marginally better.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 12:19 PM

yes ,but it is still more than just funding ,it is policies,and involvement, comhaltas still has active branches[does EFDSS still have branches]they encourage children to participate in fireside sessions [something I help with as an unpaid volunteer].it is the committment and dedication of volunteers that make these things work not just cash,.
they[comhaltas] also realise that competitions and exams are money spinners,as well as being places where children can socially interact in a safe environment.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 12:08 PM

The Minister for the Arts in Ireland made mention in his speech about the level of funding given to Irish traditional music, and also said that in the last 2 years, he had awarded 5 mill euros to Comhaltas for its development plan .... and 165,000 euros to the Archive's capital expenditure, and a further 3mill euros to traditional arts and another half a million euros to .... you get the picture .... he wants to make the traditional arts amongst the top 3 best funded arts forms in the next 3 to 5 years.......
Do we have a political party in ther UK that would make the same commitment ....?

Was not the quote I was looking for...but........it will do........
With grants like that, believe you me, funding would be no problem for the EFDSS!!

If you think digitising and making things available is simple, talk to Malcolm Douglas - who may read this thread - about the "simple" task of reproducing the Penguin Book of English Folk Songs, or of "Marrow Bones" (forthcoming).

As Anahata says, there are enormous management implications if it is to be done properly. And they are costly.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: GUEST,cliff
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 12:02 PM

In London last summer, we made a special trip to Cecil Sharpe House. Apparently they had just closed the shop and moved what was left of the merchandise to the library. Mainly, everyone was quite rude and unwilling to discuss… anything. I bought a CD and left in mild disgust. Good luck to EFDSS. They will need it.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: Stu
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 11:49 AM

Crikey, I've no idea how much paper manuscript the library has but digitising that lot would take a while - and be a logistical nightmare.

As for the sound library, I guess you would start with digitising what the Board (or membership) wanted to hear most and was not already out there. Still heavy on the logistics but not nearly as bad as the paper.

Oh well. The idealist in me thinks it's possible, and I'd help, but I guess it's unlikey to happen.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: treewind
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 10:26 AM

The raw time taken to copy audio is only part of it. It's a management problem: deciding what gets done first, keeping track of who's done what, making sure it comes back, indexing it all and putting it on a database and the website, and organising and managing the whole process.

Oh, and it's not all audio: there are stacks and stacks of paper with valuable infomation on it too. Mary's currently going though copies of VW's (sometimes rather illegible) notation of the tunes to songs he collected in Cambridgeshire and it's taking weeks of spare time. Not for the library, but I guess it can be made public and/or returned in more web-worthy formats if they want to use it.

The online library catalogue (such as it is) and Roud index are an excellent start. Nothing like the digitising the whole library but what's there has been done well and I'm sure took a lot of work.

Anahata

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 10:16 AM

Surely the sound archive is likely to be out of copyright qua sound recording, isn't it, if early Cliff Richard already is?

And since the recordings were of folk songs, the words and tunes will be out of copyright too, no?

And the civil rights of performers eventually having been found to have been inherent under the Performers' Protection Acts 1958-72 will surely also have expired, no?

So copyright in the sound archive ought not to be an issue (and there are provisions about desgnated archives too). And if the digitised collection was put on line, with associated modern performances of the songs in question donated by eager performers, securely, on a subscription basis, then there might be a revenue stream....

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 10:09 AM

I'll do it here at home if you want, free of charge. Cost is not an issue - willingness to do the work is..

Up to a point. If all you have is a vinyl record that plays for 45 mins, its going to take 45 minutes to record it. So one person could do at best about 10 records a day (per turntable & PC). The problems of recording from cylinders are worse. So yes, with enough volunteers, equipment and the willingness to risk sending the material offsite it could be done at low cost. Otherwise, you are talking LOTS of time.