Folk Club / Session Etiquette

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: johncharles
Date: 23 May 12 - 06:52 AM

here is one for you a session in Rostrevor.


   session rostrevor
obviously not the arty end of irish music, but plenty of joining in and at one point I thought I heard a shaky egg. Looks like fun. Each to his own Eh!
john

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 23 May 12 - 06:43 AM

I did not realize all of this was art

Of course it's art. Why wouldn't it be art? Much of the revival has appointed itself the custodians of some of the greatest works of art ever realised in the form of Traditional Folk Song & Ballad which are the work of exacting mastery, not the random byprodcts of fun, recreation, pleasant sensations. Of course this doesn't preclude any of the foregoing in the sharing of our passions (same goes for any Art) but if that's just an excuse for dumbing it down to common-minded strum-a-long renderings of The Wild Rover or (Lord save us!) The Fields of Athen-fecking-ry then chances are you'll find me at the bar discussing the finer points of Pasolini's Life Trilogy with the landlord.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 23 May 12 - 06:24 AM

All degrees of ability welcome.


I haven't got a degree in music.

I passed grade 1 piano when I was in junior school. Will that do?


DC

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 23 May 12 - 06:24 AM

now we are getting somewhere..I did not realize all of this was art..I had put it under some other category entirely...like fun, recreation, pleasant sensations, some sort of communal endeavor..I do stand corrected. I think I had better join a rugby club and sing along with them..mg

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: TheSnail
Date: 23 May 12 - 06:18 AM

Jim Carroll

I moved to Ireland in 1998 - up to then, in any folk club I attended in Britain, if you joined in with the VERSE you were shushed into silence; of you persisted, you were given a red card and sent off the field.

Could somebody remind me what happened to folk clubs in the eighties and nineties?


(I see Godwin's law has started to emerge on both sides.)

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 12 - 06:04 AM

"....good enough to sing along"
You seem to be maintaining your position of deliberately distorting what people are saying to give the impression of making a point Richard - you did say you were a member of the legal profession, didn't you?
None of this has anything whatever to do with being "good", bad or indifferent
Wholesale joining in on any song (apparently, not even out of bad mannered insensitivity, but rather, on principle, by your argument) interferes with an individual singer achieving and passing on his or her interpretation of a song - it is oppressive imposition of the worst kind - art by dictatorship.
I keep getting a mental picture of your walking up to DaVinci and saying., "'Ere Leo, wouldn't she look better in a flowery frock - lend us your pallette and brushes".
Your continued dishonesty demeans you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 23 May 12 - 05:40 AM

I do see lots of petty Hitlers who think that they are good enough to decide who is not.

You seem to be possessed of a Demonic inclination for Hyperbole of late, Richard. This is simply about appropriateness and common courtesy. Join in where appropriate (see Jim's post above) and have the courtesy to leave it to the singer to sing their song. The petty Hitlers are those who feel it needs adding to - either with their own instrumental prowess or with their dulcet vocalisings.

Don't ascribe motivation,

Forgive me (and others) for assigning motives to such behaviour but one must wonder, if only to understand what appears to be a somewhat sociopathic inclination on the part of those who, more often than not, haven't really got their act together (to say the least) or else are simply attention seeking, trying to intimidate, or even courting conflict by being plain rude. I know folk is generally a nutter-friendly zone (one of the things I truly love about it in terms of cultural / social sanctuary) but no one should have to be put in the very awkward position of having to tell such a person to shut up (often in fear of their personal wellbeing) just as no one should have to suffer such a bombastic intrusion into their art in the first place.

Nothing could be simpler.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 May 12 - 05:13 AM

Don't mention the war!

If there were some god-like adjudicator who could say if those attending were good enough to sing along, without fear or favour, I'd still be concerned.

Since most of those who (on behalf of actual artists who they have not consulted) want others not to join in plainly have a self-aggrandising agenda, I see no such deity.

I do see lots of petty Hitlers who think that they are good enough to decide who is not.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: John Routledge
Date: 23 May 12 - 04:37 AM

Thanks Jim. I was about post but having read your post find that it says all that I want to say.!!

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 12 - 04:30 AM

"In case this was aimed at me,"
T'wasn't Phil, it was aimed at Richard who appears to regard being asked not to join in as an act of facism.
"20th century seems to be your intention "
Sorry Martin - confusion on my part
I moved to Ireland in 1998 - up to then, in any folk club I attended in Britain, if you joined in with the VERSE you were shushed into silence; of you persisted, you were given
a red card and sent off the field.
From discussion on this and other threads it seems widespread enough to be a problem - perhaps it was The Millenium Bug we were all promised!
I am, of course, referring to the folk scene - I know damn well we have chorus songs, refrain lines, ritual songs, work songs like shanties and waulking songs, Christmas Carols (thoughouly enjoyed the couple of visits to the Sheffield Carol singing) - all to be joned in with to anybody's heart's content.
It's the apparently compulsive joining in on our narrative songs I find offensive - can't see how you can listen to what the singer's doing and sing along at the same time, for the life of me - maybe the rivival has been taken over by beamed-down Max Bygraves from another planet - send for Mulder and Scully someone!!
Heartening to see I'm not alone in my objection - for a change!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 22 May 12 - 07:15 PM

Hey if you are in the Grimsby area this coming Saturday
Feel free to pop into the Central Library and sing us a songs..
We can only guarantee you 10 minutes or 2 songs.
Sometimes we can stretch it to 3 or we might get a second go round depends who shows up..
If your ego don't fit in with that in some way don't come.
There is no P.A.but the well trained audience and fellow performers in waiting..can be silent or emulate any level of background noise you desire.
The preset position, however is silence while listening...
Folks ask you if they want you to join in and sometimes ask if they can play along..the answer, if not offensive is accepted with no argument or bad feeling.
Its from 12 noon until 3pm..Entry is free.
All degrees of ability welcome. All music/poetry stories etc that will fit in the lift and doesn't need plugging in or batteries is/are welcome..
There is no bar..and you may want to bring some refreshments
Tim

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Acorn4
Date: 22 May 12 - 07:15 PM

Heard quite a good saying about this tonight:-

"Some people impose and some super-impose!"

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 22 May 12 - 06:45 PM

there are all sorts of places where it is not rude to join in the body of the song..I expect people to when I am singing and I join in with them when they are singing...it is what we have always done at least in the past....it is a matter of preference and not virtue. If you don't want it, say so. If you find people don't do it and you want it, say so. Take responsibility for it. Don't ascribe motivation, some of which is nonsensical, such as they want to show they know all the words. What horsefeathers. It is the norm in many places; it is my preferred and expected way of doing things and I would seek out places that did it that way and most likely avoid..and do..the turn by painstaking turn situation where once, in a place where good musicians gather, I counted 10 songs before there was one I wanted to hear. If Joan Baez and Maura O'Connell and Gordon Bok and all my favorite singers were in one place, I still don't want to hear them one by one. I want to hear them all sing together with me signging along. It is a preference..again, not a virtue and not a vice. Tell me where these places are and I will try to go there. mg

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Banjo-Flower
Date: 22 May 12 - 06:33 PM

you would n't like the session I go to then,the locals are playing dominoes in the same roomand they have as much right in a public bar as we have

Gerry

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Bert
Date: 22 May 12 - 03:17 PM

Then that great group Modern Man have this take on the subject.


Don't you hate it when they make you sing along?
Don't you hate it when they make you sing along?
This guy is such a jerk and this is such a stupid song
Don't you hate it when they make you sing along?

Don't you hate it when they make you clap your hands
Don't you hate it when they make you clap your hands
This excuse for entertainment should be forever banned
Don't you hate it when they make you clap your hands

Don't you hate it when they modulate the key....

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 22 May 12 - 02:40 PM

Did you have a PA, Phil?

Certainly not. (Hate 'em.) It's a good venue if you want an audience that *listens* - there is no amplification, and you can reliably hear yourself sing, or mumble for that matter. But 30 pairs of meekly attentive ears wasn't what that song needed.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,MikeL2
Date: 22 May 12 - 02:37 PM

Hi Phil

I agree with your comments about solo singing.

If I was doing chorus or refrain material I expected people to join in.
If they didn't I would stop in the middle of the song and invite them to join in and run through the chorus a couple of times for them to hear it.

At certain clubs I would do a short introduction to the song and again run through what I wanted them to join me in.

Personally I never really had any problems with people coming in when I didn't want them to but as a club organiser, at times I did have to try to prevent people doing so when other performers were singing or playing.

Usually a fierce look from me or my finger placed over my mouth in the "shush" position worked.

I believe that the interruptions and unrequired joining in must be a fairly recent thing ???

Cheers

Mike

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 May 12 - 02:35 PM

Ben,
I know exactly the type of session you are describing and if I were there I would do exactly the same as you.

However the sort of session I usually attend is packed out with musicians at all levels and most of them have a wide repertoire of English/Irish/Scottish. Most of the night once a set starts up everybody pitches in and any beginners can easily fit in quietly without spoiling the overall sound. Most of us are ear musicians and this is the quickest way for newcomers and beginners to pick up the repertoire. It's how I picked up most of my tunes.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: TheSnail
Date: 22 May 12 - 02:19 PM

All very well, Will, but Bb minor!?

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Will Fly
Date: 22 May 12 - 01:50 PM

Those fiddle lessons must be really working, Will.

They are! I've been poring over the fiddle music of Newcastle/Gateshead fiddler James Hill - and a great deal of his stuff was written in F, A and Bb. Much of it is based on simple chord arpeggios interspersed with chromatic runs - and it works beautifully.

I remember when I first started playing jazz 40 years ago - the classic jazz keys: F, Bb, Eb, Ab - were incomprehensible at first. Then they started to make sense, and it was several years before I played a chord that wasn't barred...

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 22 May 12 - 12:21 PM

Did you have a PA, Phil? Nothing cracks me up more than those folk clubs with PAs set at ear-splitting volumes (even for floor singers) and the performer saying to the audience afterwards 'Well sung...'

*

Again, I find it's the joiners-in take great offence when you tell them to desist. It's hard to do this nicely, having had at least one verse of your song ruined by their witless warblings. Once I got so upset I actually asked a woman to STFU, which was a tad heavy handed I admit & caused great offence to others in the club who regarded me as 'rude'*. Another time on a song I stopped singing, but kept playing the zither telling the joiner-in that I didn't do duets but that they were free to finish off the song for me if they liked. 'Er - I don't really know the words,' quoth they, whereupon I asked if they would like me to sing it for them - solo. I was happy with that. Ways and means I suppose, but when I'm in the zone tact isn't really my strong point I'm afraid.

* Not an uncommon opinion percepyion of yours truly in certain quarters of the Folk Realm. I once barged into a Festival singaround in the middle of someone's song with the very irate emcee screaming at me to get out. I refused point blank because they'd overrun by 20 minutes and we had a big show to set up with something like a ten minute window in which to do so. According to my sources, said Emcee still takes every opportunity to publicy slander me, even several years down the line. Granted, I didn't handle that very well either, but when you're running from one venue to another in a tight festival schedule expecting to find the venue empty for your arrival then, I ask you, what is a boy to do?

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 22 May 12 - 11:51 AM

So you are against solo singing in clubs

In case this was aimed at me, when I said I was in favour of people joining in "at the right time", I meant "on choruses and refrains". (I'll tolerate people joining on a repeated last line, or on a repeated first verse; people merrily pitching in on verses is just rude, though.)

Not only do I think joining in on choruses is OK, I think it's a bad sign when audiences don't. Audiences in chairs-facing-the-stage FCs - in my limited experience of same - are particularly bad for this. I once did Lowlands at a local FC: eight verses, sixteen refrains, not a peep out of the lot of them. It made it a long three minutes.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: TheSnail
Date: 22 May 12 - 11:37 AM

Will Fly

What's so hard about Bbm?

Those fiddle lessons must be really working, Will.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST
Date: 22 May 12 - 10:38 AM

My what a pleasant chap Ben must be. I think I will stick with good old chord soup.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 May 12 - 09:35 AM

Before he began he announced, "I last played this twenty years ago"

I hear that a lot, and usually from people who I last heard play the piece a month before.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 22 May 12 - 09:15 AM

If someone's not a strong player, I think ideally for everyone's benefit, they should restrain themselves from attempting more than they know they can achieve. I think that's a matter of basic courtesy to others really. The squeakings of a poorly played violin or tin whistle, can be deeply unpleasant to listen to, unless the player is seven and you're their mother maybe. Another simple courtesy to others, would I have thought, be to ensure that you've actually practiced not only your instrument, but the piece you intend to perform. The funniest -in a bad way- example of someone destroying a song I've heard, was by a nice little man who was terribly keen to share his rep at any momentary point of quiet. Before he began he announced, "I last played this twenty years ago" :-\

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Will Fly
Date: 22 May 12 - 09:14 AM

What's so hard about Bbm?

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 22 May 12 - 09:06 AM

Ben, is a complete fool simply someone who isn't as good a musician as you? Or am I missing something?

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,Ben
Date: 22 May 12 - 07:52 AM

I live in Ireland. If you were to speak during a song, the whole place would make you shut up! Unless self accompanied, or specifically requested, solo singing is the norm.

At a session, you politely ask to sit in. I play guitar, sing, and play anglo concertina. I wouldn't join in on the concertina if I didn't know the tune, so why would I accompany on guitar if I didn't? I'd ruin it just as completely.

If I encounter a complete fool, I pick a special song, and tell them "B flat minor" etc. Then launch in. If there's another guitar, or a piano, I don't play chords, just the melody, or countermelody. Nothing worse than chord soup!

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: johncharles
Date: 22 May 12 - 07:47 AM

MartinRyan thanks for the blue clicky
John

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Will Fly
Date: 22 May 12 - 07:30 AM

Exactly my viewpoint, Steve.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 May 12 - 07:19 AM

Could part of the problem be that SESSION can mean something different in Ireland to what it means in most parts of England?

As a singer and musician I must admit my own personal preference is to the typical English tunes session where folk tunes of the British Isles are played and all are welcome to join in regardless of level and instrument, and the occasional solo is appreciated, and the occasional song. And if the singer wishes to perform a solo they make it clear in some way. I fully accept I'm not a good listener. I much prefer to be active and involved, which is why I prefer sessions to singarounds, even though I have been known on many occasions to run singarounds at other people's instigation.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: MartinRyan
Date: 22 May 12 - 07:18 AM

Click here for that article.

Regards

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: johncharles
Date: 22 May 12 - 07:04 AM

Here is a fascinating paper which discusses the dynamics of a particular irish music. well worth a read.
href=http://www.music.ucc.ie/jsmi/index.php/jsmi/article/view/10/12
there is much to be learned here.
John

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Will Fly
Date: 22 May 12 - 07:00 AM

Will and Vic are saying that some people join in badly.

No - I quoted a particular occasion when the percussion accompaniment was a little top-heavy. I also said that that was the way it was and I accepted it.

At the sessions I run and help to run, all are welcome to join in with anything, unless the instigator of the song/tune indicates otherwise.

As for myself as instigator, I'm happy for everyone who wants to to join in - slightly irritating as it might be sometimes - because I believe that's what my "session" is for: to bring people of all types, abilities and persuasions together to make communal music. The result of that can occasionally be tedious - it can also occasionally be glorious.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 May 12 - 06:55 AM

Jack's saying that some people join in (or don't join in) at the wrong time.

I was more concerned to say that people mostly do it at the right time. By and large the communicative interactions in a session achieve a result everybody is happy with, or they wouldn't keep coming back and the session scene wouldn't be as dynamic as it is. Trainwrecks are unusual.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: MartinRyan
Date: 22 May 12 - 06:42 AM

OK - I see the essential ambiguity in Jim's sentence. Resolving it just changes the jersey colour of his opponents...

Regards

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 May 12 - 06:33 AM

Choral singing when applied across the board to any type of music (in this case folk) is not only 21st century, but is confined only to the revival as far as I can see

Choral singing - and in particular, polyphonic choral singing - dates back thousands of years and has always been the norm for a large fraction of humanity. Lots of good examples linked from here:

http://music000001.blogspot.co.uk/

There are many musical cultures where solo singing is unknown - all performance is in polyphonic groups.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: johncharles
Date: 22 May 12 - 06:32 AM

what about sea shanties?

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: MartinRyan
Date: 22 May 12 - 06:21 AM

We losing count, Jim? 20th century seems to be your intention - not that everyone will agree with that either!

Regards

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 May 12 - 06:12 AM

"But choral singing a 21st-century phenomenon? "
Choral singing when applied across the board to any type of music (in this case folk) is not only 21st century, but is confined only to the revival as far as I can see (especially as some people here would have it as compulsory unless permission was sought and obtained).
The Copper style is all but unique to one family, and is a good example (imo) of how it doesn't work on all songs It is a family 'tradition' just as singing around the piano can be described as such - do you envisage that approach for, say, classic ballads?
To me, it is as bizarre as Richard's desire to turn us into herd animals, forbidden to create outside the group - Orwellian, to say the least.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 22 May 12 - 06:05 AM

Cross posted with Suibhne above...

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 22 May 12 - 06:01 AM

Weirdly, this thread seems to have at least two seperate discussions going at the same time. No wonder it's confusing.

The main one about folk club/session etiquette seems quite straightforward. Different clubs/sessions have different ways of doing things. Find what it is (usually by paying attention or asking someone) and go with the flow. When its yourturn, if you want to do things differently to how the gathering usually does them, tell 'em. If you don't like the way people do things, suggest alternative approaches or go somewhere else. Going back to the OP, Suibhne was quite within his rights to ask the joiner-in to desist. Equally, to chose a random example, Jack C is quite within his rights to ask people to join in with him. How hard does it all have to be??

There also seems to be a sub-discussion going on about 'how things were done in "the" tradition'. Unless your club/session is a historical re-enactment society which has identified a particular part of 'the' tradition and has the aim of replicating it exactly, how things were done in 'the' tradition is completely irrelevant. The revival is not the tradition. It's people now doing stuff now, usually for pleasure, sometimes as a job. All that matters is how things are done in each gathering of folk song and folk tune enthusiasts, and this will vary from gathering to gathering. Like in any situation where people get together to do stuff.

Disclaimer: I have an aversion to the idea of 'doing things properly'. None of us are 19th century rural peasants singing in the pub or at home in an era predating mass communication or mass transport. Whether it be unnaccompanied ballad singing at a singaround or feedback 'n' fuzz-ridden garage rock reinventions of traditional songs in a sweaty club or anything in between, its all grist to the mill. No-one has to like it all...

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 22 May 12 - 05:38 AM

For what it's worth, I wasn't offended by Suibhne's post addressing what I said, simply bemused. There didn't seem to be anything offensive, but I really could make no sense of it, so I didn't bother to reply.

One of the principle conceits one encounters among Folkies is that what they are doing is somehow keeping The Tradition alive. I dispute this with very good reason as The Tradition (as far as it existed at all) was a) something very different indeed; and b) is well dead anyway; and c) is something we have no clear understanding of bar a few scraps left in the fossil record.

Even with all the assembled & wondrous archives of Child, Roud, Max Hunter, Alan Lomax, VOTP, Folktrax et al we're still just standing in the empty ruins of Pompeii trying to imagine what life these songs once had before the mechanisations & machinations of the 19th / 20th centuries either collected them or wiped the slate clean. The Revival is born from the former, thus socially, economically, politically, culturally, functionally the two things couldn't really be more different.

Folk is a dream predicated on certain assumptions; for the most part I'd have to say it was a good dream, engendering as much very essential creative work as MOR reactionary crap. It's a dream that has both beguiled & baffled me since I was a boy; but never once was I under any illusion as to the nature of its reality. Whilst I am as fond of its beauty & richness as the next woman or man, I'm under no illusions that Folk perpetuates The Tradition in exactly the same way model railways perpetuate The Age of Steam.

Of course most Folk doesn't claim to do this at all; most of us just get on with it because we love it. We're not breathing new life into the old songs, rather the old songs are breathing new life into us. In singing an old song we're communing with something essentially unsayable, which is what precisely what Folk is. Very different to what it thinks it is for sure...

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: johncharles
Date: 22 May 12 - 04:59 AM

It is no wonder that the folk scene is marginalised.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Marje
Date: 22 May 12 - 04:46 AM

For what it's worth, I wasn't offended by Suibhne's post addressing what I said, simply bemused. There didn't seem to be anything offensive, but I really could make no sense of it, so I didn't bother to reply.

Jim: I see what you mean now about Walter Pardon and agree that if people join in they should so so with some sensitivity to the way the singer chooses to sing. Again, that seems like basic respect and good manners. And I was serious in what I said about the church - church harmonies have had a huge effect on our communal singing habits (which I like); also,the church has taken lots of good tunes and dragged them down to a funereal pace (which I don't like).

But choral singing a 21st-century phenomenon? Come on, most of us (and you) are old enough to have experienced it at least a few decades back into the 20th century. And the Copper family's style, albeit somewhat exceptional in the English tradition, has been hugely influential and goes back further than that. Also, the strong tradition of amateur choirs and choral societies, particularly in England and Wales since the 19th century, has meant that many people first experience singing in the context of church choirs and harmonies.

Marje

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 May 12 - 04:21 AM

So you are against solo singing in clubs even given the somewhat loaded proviso that a singer should ask an audience not and therefore "decide who may and who may not sing" ?
How quaint!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 22 May 12 - 04:19 AM

It seems to me we're talking about several different things here, which partly accounts for that whooshing noise you hear as people talk past each other.

There's a difference between songs and tunes, and there's a difference between joining in at all, joining in at the wrong time and joining in badly.

On tunes, Jim seems to be saying that punters shouldn't join in at all; I think he's in the minority if so, but maybe things are different in Ireland. Most of us think people should be free to join in in sessions, but Jack's saying that some people join in (or don't join in) at the wrong time. And Will and Vic are saying that some people join in badly.

On songs, I don't think anyone is saying that people shouldn't join in at all, but a few people are saying that they shouldn't join in at the wrong time, e.g. by singing along to the verses (that's a bugbear of mine, although it does seem to be quite widely accepted). And Suibhne started it all by talking about people joining in badly.

I'm not sure that anyone is arguing in favour of people joining in ineptly or in the wrong key. (In my defence, in a big session sometimes it's hard to hear your own whistle - and a lot of those tunes are in G...) I don't think there's much disagreement about whether people should join in at the wrong time, or even what the wrong time is. Basically I think we're all agreed, mostly.

Now, about those cows. These are small...

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 May 12 - 04:04 AM

My argument is very simple.

Give gatekeepers the power to decide who may and who may not sing and soon no-one will be allowed to sing but the gatekeepers (some of whom I would bar from singing, but I don't because of that factor).

In the above "sing" includes "play".

It's very like politics really - those who aspire to rule others are usually the last who should be permitted so to do.


A prime example is that player I mentioned above (the one who joined in on an instrument and forced an unaccompanied singer to change key) who while oblivious to the dreadful quality of such playing often tries to control who should not be allowed to sing.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 May 12 - 03:14 AM

"Oh, obviously not as good as you, Sweeney. "
And not as good as whoever was singing on the archive recording, it would seem - Harry Cox maybe, Jeannie Robertson, Sam Larner.... - all desperately in need of comfort and support from the joiners-inners.
This really is a piss-poor argument Richard - wouldn't stand up in court.
Taking your own cue, it could be claimed your own attitude to be "Who do these arrogant pratts think they are if they imagine he can sing their songs without my help".
I'm sure this isn't what you mean - or is it; your consistant refusal to qualify your argument leads me to believe that perhaps it is.
Jim Carroll