Folk Club / Session Etiquette

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: TheSnail
Date: 21 May 12 - 07:39 PM

How do the Welsh sing?

"Too loud, too often and flat."

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 21 May 12 - 06:56 PM

like your attack on Marje above

What attack? I just simply a position entirely respectful of the situation regarding Tradition and Revival. The revival is not the heir of the tradition; Folk is quite a distinct invention in its own right. Seems you're looking for trouble where isn't any.

But, if I've caused any offence, let me say that was certainly not my intention. I was simply talking frankly and freely as we all do here. There was nothing personal in my response to Marge's post - unlike Richard's witless sniping (i.e. You are an enigma - sometimes you see things, but so much of the time you don't and cover it up with verbiage). What are you on?

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 May 12 - 06:53 PM

Singing practices don't divide up along ethnic or regional lines anywhere. Every culture has multiple performance practices: people don't sing in the bath the same way they do at a football match, in church, at a karaoke night or on a bus when inspired by their mobile phone. Even in church there are different practices within the same ceremony; some bits of liturgy are performed communally, others left as solos for the grand hoodoo in charge.

Code-shifting is something humans are good at.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: johncharles
Date: 21 May 12 - 06:46 PM

having had a good sing and several pints I am minded to say, There's now't so queer as Folk. John

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 21 May 12 - 06:38 PM

Those of us in US at least have a number of traditions, and sitting quietly while someone else sings is not probably the norm. And neither is it the only way in the British Isles. How do the Welsh sing? How do the Cornish? Farther away, how do the South Africans? How do the Germans? Russians? There is just not one tradition from which it is rude to deviate. It is up to people who organize these groups to let people know what the rules are they are singing under. I like the Welsh rules myself. First, work in a coal mine. THen come up from the coal mine singing. Sort of leaves most women out but oh well..a small price to pay for not having to work in a coal mine. mg

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 May 12 - 05:39 PM

Oh, obviously not as good as you, Sweeney. You are an enigma - sometimes you see things, but so much of the time you don't and cover it up with verbiage - like your attack on Marje above.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 21 May 12 - 04:40 PM

Not quite as bad perhaps but I went to see one of Shirley Collins's talks at Fylde a few years back - A Most Sunshiny Day - illustrated with slides & audio examples. Guess what? The folkies in the audience sang along with the archive recordings, completely ruining it for one unhappy camper.

Mutter, mutter. Who do these people think they are?

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 May 12 - 03:27 PM

"Do you mean the Irish or the English tradition, or both?"
Irish, English and particularly Scots, with its emphasis on big ballads.
All are narrative based, to one extent or another - every one of the older singers we interviewed described themselves as storytellers, in every case the words took precedent of the tunes.
"Why on earth would so many old songs and ballads have choruses and refrain lines if it was not normal for people to join in?"
It was normal for everybody to join in - on the choruses.
If our tradition was a choral one we would have known about it centuries ago and the structure of our songs would have reflected that fact - as it is, it seems to be a purely 21st century phenomenon.
For me joining in is evidence for me that those who do so hae no interest in what the singer is doing.
"Walter Pardon may not have liked the way people joined in his choruses"
What happened to Walter's songs was that, once again, some audiences just weren't listening to what he was doing, they were more interested in what they wanted to do and they dragged the songs down to a pace he was not used to - the height of bad mannered insensitivity. You should always defer to the singer, just as you should never try as an individual musician, to push the pace of the playing, as described by Steve Gardham
I think it had far more to do with self-indulgent audiences rather than the church
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 May 12 - 02:29 PM

Retune his guitar down a semitone while he's in the bog?

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,Glasgow Boy
Date: 21 May 12 - 01:56 PM

Going off at a bit of a tangent; what do people think of those who perform the same (Randy Newman) song every session, week in/week out? Are they not inviting people to either join in or smash their bloody Takamine over their head? Especially when this particular person noodles like a Chinese takeaway over everything everybody else does. Of course, he does everything of his own on capo fret 1. I thought it was showing off, now I know better.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 May 12 - 01:14 PM

Jack, it takes two to tango.
no one minds guitarists joining in sessions very quietly if they are not sure of the tune, like wise people humming or singing harmonies, in singarounds or concerts or folk clubs, but NOT louder or as loud as the performer.
it is not acceptable for guitarists in sessions to put melody players off by banging away loudly with wrong chords, nor is it acceptable for people to start joining in with a guest at a folk club unless they have been asked, choruses are different, but it should be up to the min performer to dictate the speed of the chorus, it is not acceptable for people in the audience to slow down and drag out the chorus in a style reminscent of les paisley.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Vic Smith
Date: 21 May 12 - 12:13 PM

Will Fly wrote -
I get a snare drummer, a bohran player and a bones player accompanying me very loudly,

The problem last Tuesday was that the sheer volume of the percussionists - and let's be honest nearly all of it was coming from the snare - that the melody instrumentalists could not hear what they were playing. Tina was sitting next to him and had to hold her concertina up by her ear to hear herself.
To be fair to Roger on bodhran; He saw the situation and played with brushes all evening - at least, I assume he was playing. I couldn't actually hear him at my end of the table.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 May 12 - 11:43 AM

Leadfingers' categorization fits what I see around here (Edinburgh/Midlothian).

There are also "open mike" events, somewhere between a singaround and a folk club open evening, but which are usually a different genre. If you want to do Mumford & Sons material or your own songs in that style, they're the place for you.

I don't know any regular event in Britain where unaccompanied fiddle is the usual fare, though. Does everybody in Jim's neck of the woods dislike Kevin Burke so much they won't play with him?

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Leadfingers
Date: 21 May 12 - 11:32 AM

Iam M - I was trying to clarify the Nomenclature to reduce the arguments about what was meant . The Etiquette question is the one that will really vary from place to place .

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Will Fly
Date: 21 May 12 - 11:29 AM

Slip jigs - love 'em! We do "Drops of Brandy" and "Foxhunter's", "Butterfly" and "Rocky Road To Dublin" and quite a few others.

When I first started doing trad tunes, many years ago, I found thinking in 9/8 a bit of a bugger at first, so I can understand the reluctance of joiners-in!

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Musket
Date: 21 May 12 - 11:04 AM

Mind you, I recently played a slip jig on a mandolin, wanting the usual crew to join in, and the 9/8 floored them, (took years to forget to count and just play on instinct.)

So, the answer is, if you want to play Billy No Mates, stick to slip jigs.

Leadfinger - I don't think there is a norm. or at least, not in the etiquette sense. A folk club will always comprise of those who see reciting songs as something similar to stamp collecting, keeping a record of days gone by in the oral tradition, coupled with those who can play an instrument and realise, quite rightly, that a folk club is an excellent venue in which to share your hobby, those who enjoy listening and / or joining in, and those who are trying to recapture their youth.

Oh, and those who enjoy a pint with good mates.

I reckon you couldn't get a consensus on etiquette from that lot, never mind the other 70% of attendees!

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: johncharles
Date: 21 May 12 - 10:52 AM

Leadfinger, your definitions accord exactly with what happens in my neck of the woods. john

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 May 12 - 10:48 AM

Sessions and singarounds serve an essential function in keeping this music alive - they are a place where newcomers can get a feel for what it might be like to perform the stuff. That means guitarists who have previously got no nearer to traditional music than the acoustic end of pop; classically trained fiddlers who have at most a handful of tunes memorized; and singers who can do two or three familiar cliche songs while looking at their lyric sheet. If you tell all those people to bugger off and take lessons for a couple of years before coming back, they not only won't come back, they'll tell their friends to stay away as well.

Most of the time this sort of newcomer - new to the folk/trad idiom but not new to musical performance - will see quite quickly what they need to learn (and the people in the session will probably have useful pointers on how to go about it). But they need a chance to try first.

I think Jim is old enough to have told Kevin Burke to fuck off and come back when he wasn't still wet behind the ears. And he probably did exactly that to people of the same generation who might by now have been just as good if they hadn't despaired of ever being accepted.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Leadfingers
Date: 21 May 12 - 10:46 AM

The NORM for a UK folk Club tends to be SOME booked artists (And then you only join in IF asked) and some Open Evenings with NO booked guest but local and visiting performers doing short sets - Again , you ONLY join in if asked . That does NOT apply anywhere if a song has a chorus or a refrain .
A Singaround Club has NO booked artists ,and tends to be more informal , with a lot of audience participation and One Song at a time round the room .
A SESSION is even more informal , and can be either Just Songs , Just Tunes , or Mixed ! IF its a Tunes session , the general idea is to LEARN new tunes from the other performers , so prticipation IS encouraged .
A CONCERT is a far more formal event , but even at Concerts , Audience participation is encouraged for Choruses and refrains .

If any one in UK disagrees with my assessment please tell me what differences you consider the norm in YOUR area .

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: johncharles
Date: 21 May 12 - 10:22 AM

Suibhne, I have some sympathy with your views on sensitivity towards the craft of music. However, I am aware that there exist a good number of musicians/singers who believe they are perfectly competent, whereas in reality they may be unable to sing or play in tune. This I believe is a function of the often uncritical acceptance by an essentially friendly folk audience and the difficulty inherent in the process of self-criticism; we like to think we are better than we really are.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 21 May 12 - 10:03 AM

If a tradition is what's handed down from one generation to another, than the revival must be part of the tradition.

This is just so not true. Revival and Tradition are chalk & cheese and it pays, I feel, to be aware of this as conflating the two just leads to all sorts of issues, none of which are helpful. The Tradition is largely a myth, an illusion consequent on Revival Methodology as what we're looking at are collected versions which form the fossil record of a long dead idiom of Popular Music Making. We're looking at that idiom, just so many shadows of it on the wall of Plato's Cave. For sure the two have overlapped - I'm honoured to have worked with Traditional Singers & Storytellers who have welcomed me with open arms, but never once was I under an illusions about my status as a Singer of Traditional Songs rather than a Traditional Singer. This isn't a matter of petty semantics, it's the very core of what Folk is.

That said there are (confusingly perhaps) revival traditions which are more orthodox conventions born of the inner religiosity of a movement adrift from mainstream culture by nature of its very convictions. But best we don't confuse them with anything truly Traditional, anymore than our Model Railway Enthusiasts confuse his authentic models with real trains.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 21 May 12 - 09:52 AM

Quite a difference, yes?

That's a seasoned group of expert singers though Jack - not just a bunch of random joiners in. Such highly evolved collective music making insists that the participants have at least heard the song before attempting to take part in its performance, much less be familiar with its nuances or else have the ability to effect a welcome contribution least they be damned as the hapless Jack Madden in Jacobs' Legend of Knockgrafton. The nature of music is knowing...

Surely all this boils down to is being able to recognise the difference between a performance siuation and a participation situation.

Again - even in a participation situation the participants must know their shit before joining in, least they prove they're just shit. With the best will in the world I can't extend that welcome to people so insensitive to the craft of music to think that anything is better than nothing.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Marje
Date: 21 May 12 - 09:06 AM

If a tradition is what's handed down from one generation to another, than the revival must be part of the tradition. There are older aspects too, but if we are to regard anything after 1950 as too late to be traditional, we're left with a static and fossilised view of what the tradition consists of.

The "revival" was just that - it revived many traditional songs which would otherwise have been lost to future generations. It also "revived" or refreshed certain of the songs in various ways, attempting to revitalise them by creating new settings and accompaniments, re-writing lyrics and even writing new songs that followed traditional patterns. Not all of this was successful in the long term, but some of what was done then has resulted in the preservation of old songs and tunes in much the same form as they'd existed in for decades or centuries before. The old songs became accessible to a new generation of singers and audience. All this can't be written off as "not the tradition". It happened, it's important, and the process continues to this day.

Marje

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 May 12 - 08:50 AM

Surely all this boils down to is being able to recognise the difference between a performance siuation and a participation situation. One can only do this by being familiar with the venue unwritten rules, by asking.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 21 May 12 - 08:40 AM

With regards to the 'not a part of the tradition' argument, I feel what may be being missed there, is that the revival entire 'isn't a part of the tradition'. It may be possessed of it's own traditions of sorts ("over half a century" is probably enough for it to have done so) but 'the' tradition it isn't. Different times & different groups of people result in different ideas about things I suppose.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: johncharles
Date: 21 May 12 - 08:11 AM

Spot on jack, makes all the difference.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 May 12 - 08:07 AM

Now listen to a performance with the chorus:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uauqsVMD9UU

Quite a difference, yes?

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: johncharles
Date: 21 May 12 - 07:57 AM

Just listened to He Mandu (http://www.tobarandualchais.co.uk/en/fullrecord/23183/1)
Didn't feel any need to strum along, rather felt like losing the will to live. What a philistine I am sometimes.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 21 May 12 - 07:48 AM

Oh God, now I'm having visions of a bunch of seasoned Waulkers singing He Mandu* and the guitar guy feeling the need to strum along. Choral singing, be it Sacred Harp, Gaelic Psalms, Sea Shanties or Old Chestnut Bawling in Singarounds at least require a certain expertise and familiarity with the idiom & songs before participation should be attempted, no matter now informal the context.

* An obvious chioce, but my knowledge of the idiom isn't so very extensive.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 May 12 - 07:39 AM

Why on earth would so many old songs and ballads have choruses and refrain lines if it was not normal for people to join in?

You can find a few hundred examples of songs where the refrain is an essential part of the performance if you go to

Kist o Riches

and put "waulking" in the search box.

The content of waulking songs is hugely varied, from epic laments to topical satires. I would bet that a lot of the songs that Jim only knows from Irish tradition as reverentially performed solo spots started out as work songs like that.

Waulking songs are sometimes performed solo in Scotland, but when they are it's a degradation of the tradition. At least here, everybody can tell when the singer has gone off on an ego trip in Mod-competition style.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 21 May 12 - 07:38 AM

I like the idea of convivial anarchy where what I say goes. So if you see me singing just shut the feck up and listen, OK.

For sure, if you don't know what you're doing, then the best thing to do is to listen in respectful appreciation, as we all must. Respect is the key here; that and musical appropriateness. God knows life's too short for open confrontation in a social situation, but music is too precious to be blootered over by cack-handed guitar guys who think they know better than you on things they've never heard before and haven't the first clue about. In this sense it's like turning up at a recital of Bach cello suites and proving impromtu continuo by strumming along, which they probably do; on the evidence it wouldn't surprise me - but I'm sure they wouldn't get very far before being impaled on the cello spike. Anarchy is about engendering freedom in self by engendering & acknowleding it in others; if others openly oppress my freedom then I will, at the very least, say something.

Come all ye, but leave your own rules at home. For sure our rules may be unwritten & only proved by significant exception, but part of the fun of the music is figuring that out as part of the very convivial hand of welcome.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: johncharles
Date: 21 May 12 - 07:13 AM

I like the idea of convivial anarchy where what I say goes. So if you see me singing just shut the feck up and listen, OK.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Marje
Date: 21 May 12 - 07:03 AM

I'm not going back to the "my-club-is-better-than-your-club" argument, but to a point of fact: Jim, you say "Our tradition is not a choral one." Do you mean the Irish or the English tradition, or both? I'm having difficulty with this idea in relation to English song, at least.

Why on earth would so many old songs and ballads have choruses and refrain lines if it was not normal for people to join in? In fact, why would they be called "choruses" in the first place? Walter Pardon may not have liked the way people joined in his choruses (I know what he means - I blame the Church!), but surely he wasn't surprised or taken aback by this? Whether it's a rousing "And a hunting we will go.." or a quiet, hypnotic repeat line like "Oh, but her love was easily won", have these parts of songs not always been open to others to join in? Another churchy parallel here - they're almost like the call-and-answer responses or chants that have been a feature of church music for centuries. Ditto the harmonies, which are far from being a new-fangled 20th century fashion.

And I'm ready to accept that this tradition is not the same in Irish song, but the Dubliners and the Clancys and the "Irish pub bands" who are their successors across the world have done a lot to promote the idea of singalong folk music, in much the same way as the Spinners and others did in England. There is more to Irish (and English) music than that, but this genre is now an accepted part of the Irish (and ex-pat/emigrant)tradition, and has been handed on in this way for over half a century now.

Marje

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 21 May 12 - 06:49 AM

(lots of kooky folks use the bus).

But not many kookie folkies, eh, CS?

This is a fair point actually but if that was truly the case in the present mutterance I wouldn't have said anything, either here or on the night in question. I know that folk has more than its fair share of genuine nutters, and the more the merrier really; eccentricity is built into the DNA of the thing, which brings to Richard's comment...

It seems unavoidable that those doing the telling off think they are better than those being told off

...because very often it seems to me it's the other way round actually, with the accompaniments being offered by way of learned instruction and/or correction by individuals who feel they are inherently superior in some way. Personally, I don't feel 'better' than anyone, I just don't like it when people feel the need to 'improve' on what I'm doing by adding something utterly unnecessary then have the neck to look all wounded when I tell them so. If it only happened the once then fair enough, but it seems to be a frequent issue. It's not just the one club I've been in where 'the guitar guy' feels the need to join in with everything whilst making a consistent hash of it. One time I was visiting a club and noting his tendancy to do just that I asked him if he wouldn't try and accompany me and got into a pre-song situation that was so ugly that I just went home without singing.

We don't get out to Folk Clubs much these days as we don't live in a very Trad Friendly County - which is why our Friday night Sesh is dearly & rightly cherished. I don't go for Agro, I go for great music and great crack; and I hate being put in a situation of confrontation by 'guitar guys' who feel that just because they can strum the chords to the Fields of Athenry that somehow qualifies them as a musician. There are plenty of clubs where it will, especially round here, but precious few which appreciate the pure principle of The Modal Drone essential to a more spiritual communion with the heart and soul of Traditional Song, where the intonation of such sacred texts as The Crabfish, Butter and Cheese and All or Long Peggin Awl require a certain finesse to do them justice...

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: banjoman
Date: 21 May 12 - 06:38 AM

I dont join in unless asked to do so, but agree with a lot of the views expressed here. Its about understanding the "Rules"of the session/singaround that you are in and if necessary asking if its ok to join in.

Hi Keith - long time no see/hear -hope you are still sessioning
Pete

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 May 12 - 06:33 AM

"It seems unavoidable that those doing the telling off think they are better than those being told off. "
You've said this before Richard - are you really claiming that solo singing is an indication that solo singers do so because they consider themselves "superior"?
"....on an event which, from your description, is the antithesis of what I mean by a session."
You are assuming that I am basing it on one event - I am not, nor are people arguing the case on a single event (or that it should specifically apply to sessions - it happens at guest paying clubs regularly), but a principle that if you come along to their club you will have to go cap-in-hand to ask permission to sing solo - and be faced with attitudes such as Richard's, that it is arrogance on your part to want to do so - the death knell of all solo performances, taken to its logical conclusion.
Our song tradition (unlike others) is not a choral one and the songs, with all their musical and textual complexities and subtlties lend themselves to individual interpretation, in most cases, demand it.
Surely the musical variations or uses of textual phrasing that singers use within the space of one single song make it this blindingly obvious.
By encouraging joining in, you are bulldozing all of these flat , making any individual interpretation a singer might choose to make utterly superfluous.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 May 12 - 05:51 AM

It seems unavoidable that those doing the telling off think they are better than those being told off.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,Don Wise
Date: 21 May 12 - 05:46 AM

Long, long ago, in a session or singaround (might even have been a concert), the usual foot-stampers,hand-clappers, spoons-players, bones players and bodhran wannabes playing their beer mugs were all present. Then someone made the following announcement," The next song/tune is in 7/4 (or something equally odd)- don't try to accompany it 'cos you'll end up spastic!".....talk about rhythmic frustration.....
What irritates me in sessions? Guitarists (yes,I know I'm one). Those of an irish/celtic music persuasion all seem to be frustrated heavy metal guitarists. This is fine when confined to their groups, but two or more often don't quite gel together. On top of this they haven't mastered the art of playing quietly when necessary and actually listening to tunes they don't know. There is also the clique status of many sessions, again mostly irish, where the current irish 'top ten' will be fiddled,banjoed and bodhraned at breakneck speed and where all attempts to play anything other than the 'hits' are mercilessly and arrogantly ignored and steamrollered into silence.

Don

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 21 May 12 - 05:46 AM

"the non-autistic majority of us are well able to read the social and musical interactions in a session situation."

I've actually wondered about that, as a number of characters I've witnessed behaving in a distinctly self-focused / blinkered fashion definitely appeared to belong to some kind of spectrum of personality disorder, however mildly.

I've also encountered a higher quanity of that type of character at singarounds than almost anywhere, bar perhaps when volunteering for some charity drop-in morning, or on the bus (lots of kooky folks use the bus).

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 21 May 12 - 05:39 AM

The title of the thread contains both club and session, the two are not synonymous.

As the OP, I must say that in this context Folk Club and Session are pretty much synonymous. Our Folk Club is a music & song Session; there is no emcee, no floor spots, no formality, no order, no performances as such where anyone is free to sing when they want, or as much or as little as they want. It is convivial anarchy. It is a Folk Club where people meet to play (mostly) traditional tunes & sing traditional songs, where joining in actively & heartily encouraged.

The point is that even in this context, why is it that people feel the need to join in when they obviously don't have the first clue what the music is about? And why, having placed me in the awkward situation of having to advise them mid-song that their contribition is not required, do they take offense and start demanding what The Rules of contruibition are? Surely the rules of contribution are obvious: only join in if you know what you're doing. If you don't, shut the feck up and LISTEN. I do a lot of LISTENING at our Folk Club, I am like a pig in shit doing so, enjoying the seasoned experise and virtuosity of muscians whose boots I am not fit to lick*. But even here, certain indivuals feel the need to play along when they haven't got the first clue.

Whilst I am no fan of people who persist in singing along with my shit (or anyone's shit for that matter) to show their appreciation or that they know the song too, I have no problems with those who 'air sing'. Ever seen that? I know two people - both of them great performers in their own right, both of them very dear to me as people too - who sing along with every word in studied concentration, but (get this) they don't utter a sound.

* Not just seasoned virtuousi I might add. I love listening to other singers in Folk Clubs, it is one of life's true joys; even the most nervous & inexperienced of singers can touch my heart, and very often do.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 May 12 - 05:34 AM

It should not be the visitors' job to ask that this should not happen, but the other way round - if they have no objection they can say so, otherwise they have a right to be listened to in silence.

It is pretty obvious which kind of tunes work best as an accompanied solo (or with a tightly thought-out accompaniment by only one player) - if Paul Anderson started up "Gight Castle" in a Scottish session it is not likely anyone would play along. He wouldn't NEED to say when silence was a good idea, the tune and the performer's attitude will convey it in the first bar. Nor should I need to say when silence is a bad idea to the point of being downright insulting, but I guess people who sing Neil Young are just thick.

You might need an explicit sign on the wall to say what to do, but the non-autistic majority of us are well able to read the social and musical interactions in a session situation.

I can go to a ballad performance of the type you describe every week in Edinburgh (though I haven't, Fridays are not convenient for me) - Kevin Mitchell (note spelling) has sung at it, I think. Nobody would go along to that with the idea of accompanying anybody, but I doubt they've ever bothered making a rule about it. There's a session upstairs in the same pub at the same time which operates under something more like the usual session conventions. The people who go to that don't need to be told what to do, either.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: johncharles
Date: 21 May 12 - 05:22 AM

p.s. we have had several paid guests recently who have arrived during the slow session and it was a real pleasure to see them get their instruments out and join in.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: johncharles
Date: 21 May 12 - 05:11 AM

The title of the thread contains both club and session, the two are not synonymous. Our club runs fortnightly slow sessions for the first hour.Everyone is welcome to join in. The second half of the evening is the club where individuals take turns to sing/play, joining in is usually restricted to singing choruses unless the singer suggests otherwise.
Barnsley folk club

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Will Fly
Date: 21 May 12 - 04:51 AM

I'm perfectly aware of the thread title - I'm commenting on Jim's continued use of the word sessions while really referring to clubs.

It may be a niggle - and it may, as Marje says - be bickering. If there wasn't always an implied or, more usually, a direct criticism of the British folk scene on Jim's part, then I wouldn't be so pernickety.

It appears to be any excuse to give the scene a good knocking, even though the direct experience of many of us is the opposite of what Jim bangs on about.

But as before - 'nuff said.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 21 May 12 - 04:44 AM

" but we're not discussing clubs here" I should look at the thread title Will.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Marje
Date: 21 May 12 - 04:31 AM

I don't see the point in continuing to bicker about the way things are done in different areas/countries. These may or may not always have been as they are now, but anyone attending a club or session has to look at what is happening there now, and accept the unwritten rules that are now applied.

Good manners (which apply wherever you are) would suggest that you watch what others do and take your cue from them; you can also pick up clues from whoever is leading a song or tune (or acting as MC if there is one) as to what's expected or encouraged. Good manners should also take care of the one-off problems such as private noodling between tunes, or correcting or shouting down a singer who comes up with a different version of a song.

I do remember one time when I was singing, a bass player who'd never been to our session before played a quiet accompaniment to my song. I didn't mind a bit, but one of our regulars told him off afterwards, in front of everyone else, saying that this was not done. I was really cross, and apologised to the guy at the bar, but he never came back to that session. The bad manners, in this case, was the public criticism of this guy's attemps to join in. If anyone had a problem with it, a private word afterwards would have been enough.

It's all about respecting the musicians/singers and the music they're putting across. In some areas it's evidently considered disrepectful to join in; in others, participation is welcomed and seen as a sign of your appreciation and engagement with the music.

You can enjoy one system more than the other, but that doesn't make either of them wrong or offensive. What is wrong is trying to impose or insist on a uniform etiquette across country and cultural boundaries, or sneer at the way some people choose to enjoy their music.

Marje

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Will Fly
Date: 21 May 12 - 04:23 AM

You're not getting it, Jim.

Like the caterpillar in "Alice's Adventures in Wonderland", a word means exactly what I want it to mean. By "session" I mean a gathering of singers and musicians who play communally together for each other - which is the raison d'etre of the gathering - not a showcase for the better musicians to entertain while the lesser ones gather round in hushed awe. That's what might happen in a folk club or a singaround in my book. Once again, you're talking in "club" terms - but we're not discussing clubs here.

It seems petty to argue about semantics, but it's important here because you're basing your inevitable acid criticisms of this and that on an event which, from your description, is the antithesis of what I mean by a session. To extrapolate your inevitable criticism of the British folk scene - clubs, sessions, singarounds - from that extrapolation is inevitably flawed.

Enough said, I think.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 May 12 - 03:38 AM

"The kind of gathering Jim describes Kevin Burke presiding over isn't a musical event"
No it isn't - it's listening to an evening of music from the best of what we've got - and it happens in every other performing and creative art I know of.
I can remember having the same experience in the UK with Bert LLloyd, MacColl, Killen, Seamus Ennis, Paddy Tunney, The Stewart Family, Lizzie Higgins, Kevin Michell, Harry Cox, Walter Pardon, Joe Heaney.... all showcased regularly in the clubs I attended or helped run - and every single one of them enjoyably memorable experiences - thankfully free from audiences who joined in to prove they did, or didn't know the tunes or the words.
How can excellece possibly be described as "hero-cultic obsession", it is no more than enjoying an evening of the best of what your music has to offer
We ran clubs in the UK and booked guests who we believed performed well - HCO?
We helped run workshops so that singers could improve their performances - HCO?
Utter crap.
"If irish musicians are so appalled by UK behaviour why not stop at home."
Ask the club and festival organisers who persist in booking them.
What all this boils down to is that if you are going to run singing or musical events and invite people to sing or play, it should be entirely up to the singers and musicians who turn up whether their songs and tunes should be turned into choral or orchestral pieces. It should not be the visitors' job to ask that this should not happen, but the other way round - if they have no objection they can say so, otherwise they have a right to be listened to in silence.
If you do otherwise your club should come with a health warning THIS CLUB DOES NOT ENCOURAGE SOLO PERFORMANCES.
This choral thing is a recent introduction; many (most) I have spoken to find it highly offensive and if it becomes the norm, people like Steve can forget their objections to someone speeding up the tunes, and the OP needn't bother working on his musical skills because his efforts are going to be swallowed up (and more likely as not, naused up) by ego tippping joiners-inners drowning his efforts out.
Noodling seems to be a good word for it - the act of noodles (dict def. - a fool, a simpleton)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 May 12 - 07:13 PM

Belfast, now where would that be?
In the UK.

And also in Ireland, as "GUEST,Eh? " was hinting.

Here is a fiddler as good as or better than Kevin Burke playing in a session in Scotland. Note: there are people accompanying him. And he shows every sign of welcoming it.

Paul Anderson

The kind of gathering Jim describes Kevin Burke presiding over isn't a musical event, it's some kind of fundamentalist religious ritual. If I'm ever in Aberdeenshire I'll try to find the pub Paul is playing in there: I have no intention of going anywhere near a centre of the sort of hero-cultic obsession Jim describes.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: johncharles
Date: 20 May 12 - 06:48 PM

My cookie went missing. It was Jim carroll who referred to the UK and irish players to which I was responding. Sorry to any players north of the border who are as Bert notes British.