BS: What is Anti-Semitism?

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 20 May 03 - 07:06 PM

Nobody's infallible, Forum Lurker. But these are the groups who have the least biased agenda with regard to how human beings should be treated, and their track records are very good overall. Since their stated agenda, and their track record, shows that they do, in fact, work very hard to promote basic human rights for all people, they are the most qualified to be monitoring these kinds of situations and reporting on them. They're the best any of us has got. The reason that I prefer to get my information from the Jewish run organizations is because they would have the least amount of incentive to be biased against Jews, but I also trust the Society of Friends (Quakers), and a few others who have excellent track records with regard to fairness. And I don't buy that "only doing it because they feel guilty" business for one minute. They do it because they are people of great courage and humanity. You sell all Jews short when you try to attribute such cynical motives to these people.

Ok. I'm going off-line for about a week and a half. Argue amongst yourselves.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 20 May 03 - 06:31 PM

CarolC-You are thinking about an ideal human rights organization, composed solely of infallible people whose sole motivation is to improve human rights. No real group like this exists, and so we are left with organizations who may be mistaken or biased against a certain group, may be misled, or whose members may include people who are not solely interested in human rights. Nothing about the stated motives of these organizations conveys any objectivity or infallibity.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 20 May 03 - 04:53 PM

A bias in favor of the human rights of Palestinians, neglecting the human rights of Israelis, is just as biased as the inverse, and by no means "fair to all humans," unless you maintain that Israelis are inhuman.

What you are describing is organizations that promote the rights of certain groups, such as the Anti-defamation league, and the NAACP. Human rights organizations state, as their goal, the promotion of the rights of all humans, regardless of their race, religion, ethnic group, or nationality. So no human rights organization would promote a bias that neglected the rights of anyone.

What I have stated is that the killing of civilians is not a valid political tool, and that any group which openly embraces it as such is terroristic. Regardless of what you think of their intent, the IDF does not claim that it would be justified in the mass slaughter of innocent Palestinians to further the political goals of Israel. Hamas, on the other hand, is based on the proposition that the murder of Israeli civilians is not only justified, but a moral obligation, as a political tool.

The IDF doesn't claim that, nor do they admit it when they engage in such practices. But that doesn't change the fact that they do engage in such practices. The main difference between Hamas and the Israeli government is the fact that Hamas freely admits what it does, while the Israeli government does whatever it wants and then denies it. Or claims that it has a right to do it, or that it is justified.

I saw an IDF officer, on television, justifying his orders to his unit to use Palestinian civilians as human shields (which they did do). He never denied that he had done it. In fact, he didn't even see what he had done as being wrong. Do you know what he used as his "justification"? He said it was for a "just cause".

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 20 May 03 - 04:42 PM

Bullshit yourself, Artbrooks.

If I make a statement like the one you're having problems with, I get criticized for making the statement. If I post documentation, I get criticized for posting the documentation. If I post indesputable proof, I get criticized for posting indesputable proof. Other than agreeing with your position or remaining silent, there is nothing I can do without being attacked.

Nobody thinks this, including the Israeli government

You're very, very, very wrong about this. But you're too deluded yourself to see it. A lot of people not only think it, they know it, including former IDF soldiers and officers, and Israeli refuseniks who have gone to jail in order to not be forced to commit these crimes agains humanity.

The level of vitriol being flung at me is reaching a fever pitch. You guys must be feeling incredibly guilty right about now. Get your heads out of the sand, for pete's sake, and do something to stop this tragedy!!! Do it for your own sake!

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 20 May 03 - 04:41 PM

CarolC-No, not all treaties guarantee both parties the same rights. In fact, very few treaties do so. Given that the IDF maintains a universal draft, claiming that Israeli soldiers are necessarily any less innocent than any other Israeli citizen is ridiculous. A bias in favor of the human rights of Palestinians, neglecting the human rights of Israelis, is just as biased as the inverse, and by no means "fair to all humans," unless you maintain that Israelis are inhuman. Finally, I have never stated that I support the IDF's use of certain tactics, or that I support what you claim to be Sharon's goal of evicting the Palestinians. What I have stated is that the killing of civilians is not a valid political tool, and that any group which openly embraces it as such is terroristic. Regardless of what you think of their intent, the IDF does not claim that it would be justified in the mass slaughter of innocent Palestinians to further the political goals of Israel. Hamas, on the other hand, is based on the proposition that the murder of Israeli civilians is not only justified, but a moral obligation, as a political tool.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: artbrooks
Date: 20 May 03 - 03:08 PM

CarolC said: Your fellow Jews are killing innocents by the score because they think it's a valid political tool. Bullshit. Nobody thinks this, including the Israeli government. And it sounds to me like you support them in doing this. I would have thought that even the most deluded mind couldn't come up with this. Guess I was wrong. You seem to think the Palestinians should just lay down and die, so Israel can have all the land it wants. Nonsense Israel is using state supported terrorism, and it looks to me like you are ok with that. Again, no one has even begun to imply this, except in one person's imagination. State supported terrorism is just as damaging as any other kind of terrorism. No argument. Have a nice vacation.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 20 May 03 - 01:15 PM

CarolC-You are misunderstanding what AggieD is saying about the occupation. The land may belong to the Palestinians, but before it was occupied by Israel IT WAS ILLEGALLY OCCUPIED BY ARAB STATES. To address other points:

Whatever treaties give Israel whatever rights it has also gives the Palestinians in Palestine the same rights. You can't have it both ways.

Hamas is not defending the Palestinians when they bomb Israelis. You have admitted innumerable times that the extremists on both sides are equally responsible for the cycle of violence, yet you refuse to condemn the currently most violent extremists on the Palestinian side of the conflict.

AggieD was asking about the killing of Israeli soldiers. I do condemn, and have consistantly condemned the killing of innocents by anyone, extremist or otherwise on both sides of the conflict. The killing of soldiers is a more complicated question.

When you get your information from Jewish human rights groups, that doesn't make it any less biased than any other human rights group. Their bias simply comes from a feeling of guilt rather than accusation.

That's ok with me, because any bias in favor of human rights is, by definition, fair to all humans.

As for your final question, if my fellow Jews were murdering innocents by the score because they thought it was a valid political tool, I would not support them. Regardless of who is "in the right," there is no justification for such terrorist tactics, which damage, rather than aid the cause they espouse.

Your fellow Jews are killing innocents by the score because they think it's a valid political tool. And it sounds to me like you support them in doing this. You seem to think the Palestinians should just lay down and die, so Israel can have all the land it wants. Israel is using state supported terrorism, and it looks to me like you are ok with that. State supported terrorism is just as damaging as any other kind of terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 20 May 03 - 12:49 PM

CarolC-You are misunderstanding what AggieD is saying about the occupation. The land may belong to the Palestinians, but before it was occupied by Israel IT WAS ILLEGALLY OCCUPIED BY ARAB STATES. To address other points:

Hamas is not defending the Palestinians when they bomb Israelis. You have admitted innumerable times that the extremists on both sides are equally responsible for the cycle of violence, yet you refuse to condemn the currently most violent extremists on the Palestinian side of the conflict.

When you get your information from Jewish human rights groups, that doesn't make it any less biased than any other human rights group. Their bias simply comes from a feeling of guilt rather than accusation.

As for your final question, if my fellow Jews were murdering innocents by the score because they thought it was a valid political tool, I would not support them. Regardless of who is "in the right," there is no justification for such terrorist tactics, which damage, rather than aid the cause they espouse.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 20 May 03 - 12:39 PM

The problems that so many Palestinians have with Israel is that if Hammas did not keep on bombing innocent Israeli citizens, then the rest of the Palestinian people would not have such a hard time of it.

I disagree with this. I think a case can be made that if Hamas wasn't in the area attempting to defend Palestinians, and provide them with much needed basic human services, all of the Palestinians would have already died or have been removed from the occupied territories. I can't prove the situation either way, but then again, neither can you.

Let's be honest all journalists & political writers have their own agenda,& are quite happy to bend the truth to sell their articles.

Some more than others, I think. But that's why I try to get my information from Jewish human rights organizations whenever possible.

'From 1987 to 1993, during the first intifada, Hamas targeted only Israeli soldiers and settlements.'

Are you therefore CarolC condoning this fact? These were still human beings being killed.

This presents quite a problem, doesn't it? These were human beings who were harrassing and killing innocent human beings and driving them from their homes. If I was in a position to have to defend one or the other of these groups, I'd have a hard time justifying defending the aggressor in this situation.

And how about the human beings that the IDF forces were (and are) harassing and killing? Do you condone this killing? They are still human beings. And how about the people who are killed in the name of fighting terrorism? They are human beings too. Do you condone killing them?

"Israel entered the West Bank and Gaza Strip in the 1967 Six-Day War. Israeli legal experts traditionally resisted efforts to define the West Bank and Gaza Strip as "occupied" or falling under the main international treaties dealing with military occupation. Former Chief Justice of the Supreme Court Meir Shamgar wrote in the 1970s that there is no de jure applicability of the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention regarding occupied territories to the case of the West Bank and Gaza Strip since the Convention "is based on the assumption that there had been a sovereign who was ousted and that he had been a legitimate sovereign." In fact, prior to 1967, Jordan had occupied the West Bank and Egypt had occupied the Gaza Strip; their presence in those territories was the result of their illegal invasion in 1948. Jordan's 1950 annexation of the West Bank was recognized only by Great Britain and Pakistan and rejected by the vast majority of the international community, including the Arab states."

So who was occupying whom?

Your legal experts don't have a leg to stand on. The land that was given to the Jewish State of Israel was given to them by the same body that gave Palestine to the Palestinians. If the Palestinians have no claim to their land, then neither do the Israelis.

And this kind of legalese jargon is a pretty pathetic attempt to justify something that no self-respecting Jew would tolerate if it was foisted upon them by anyone. The Jews who were expelled from their homes in Pogroms in places like Russia. They weren't legitimate sovereigns over their land. Does that make the expulsion ok? The countries whose governments oppressed Jews Were/are sovereigns. Does that make it ok for them to oppress Jews?

Even the Palestinians who live in Israel proper are treated as second class citizens. I can provide plenty of non-journalistic documentation to suppor this statement. Israel has no constitution, and it has two sets of laws. One set of laws applies only to Jews. The other set of laws applies to everyone else.

The Palestinians in the occupied territories have no rights at all. They are non-people to the Israeli government.

And would you now evict all those people who have made their homes in these areas? Where are they supposed to go. You will now make thousands of people homeless. So what do you do about that situation?

Yes. The settlers need to go. The settlements are in violation of the Geneva Convention, and they are the cause of a lot of violence and suffering for a lot of people on both sides. I'm sure there are plenty of people who would be happy to provide money to the settlers to relocate elsewhere, just as there were plenty of people who provided the money for them to settle in the occupied territories in the first place.

That is, of course, unless people decided to have all of Israel and the Palestinian occupied territories be joined together as one country under a secular government with one constitution for everybody and only one set of laws for everybody. I don't see this being very likely.

So since you like to frame arguments in terms of equivalences, ask yourself this... if a government of a country, right now, was doing to Jews what the government of Israel has been and continues to do to the Palestinians, would you tolerate it? Would you be silent while it happened? Would you support them and help them do it with your words, your money, your political support?

If I was silent while governments did these kinds of things to Jews, my silence would make me complicit. So what about you? Are you willing to make yourself complicit while these things are being done to human beings? Being done in your name?

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: AggieD
Date: 20 May 03 - 11:51 AM

The problems that so many Palestinians have with Israel is that if Hammas did not keep on bombing innocent Israeli citizens, then the rest of the Palestinian people would not have such a hard time of it.

Let's be honest all journalists & political writers have their own agenda,& are quite happy to bend the truth to sell their articles.


'From 1987 to 1993, during the first intifada, Hamas targeted only Israeli soldiers and settlements.'

Are you therefore CarolC condoning this fact? These were still human beings being killed.

This link might just interest you:
http://www.jcpa.org/art/brief1-1.htm

"Israel entered the West Bank and Gaza Strip in the 1967 Six-Day War. Israeli legal experts traditionally resisted efforts to define the West Bank and Gaza Strip as "occupied" or falling under the main international treaties dealing with military occupation. Former Chief Justice of the Supreme Court Meir Shamgar wrote in the 1970s that there is no de jure applicability of the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention regarding occupied territories to the case of the West Bank and Gaza Strip since the Convention "is based on the assumption that there had been a sovereign who was ousted and that he had been a legitimate sovereign." In fact, prior to 1967, Jordan had occupied the West Bank and Egypt had occupied the Gaza Strip; their presence in those territories was the result of their illegal invasion in 1948. Jordan's 1950 annexation of the West Bank was recognized only by Great Britain and Pakistan and rejected by the vast majority of the international community, including the Arab states."

So who was occupying whom?

And would you now evict all those people who have made their homes in these areas? Where are they supposed to go. You will now make thousands of people homeless. So what do you do about that situation?

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 19 May 03 - 11:09 PM

An excerpt from A Gaza Diary

By Chris Hedges

Arafat loyalists in the camp, such as Faqawi, concede that Hamas is ascendant. If Oslo had led, as many had hoped, to a two-state solution, and thereby given Palestinians some glimmer of a better life, it is a fair bet that Hamas would be a marginal force in Gaza. But Israel's occupation and Arafat's mismanagement have made it only a matter of time before the militants come to power. They already rule the street. If Sharon unleashes Israel's might, as he did in Lebanon, the Palestinian Authority will be his first victim.

"What has happened since the Palestinian Authority came to power?" the sheikh asks. "Everyone is poorer. The Israeli occupation has not ended. Hardship always brings people back to God. It is like sickness. To quote the Prophet, peace be upon him, a believer should never be afraid of being poor but of being rich. When you become rich you think only of things. This kills your soul. Islam has given Palestinians cohesion. We feel as one body, in our dreams and our agony. And Islam distinguishes us in that it prepares people to die for the sake of Allah. They are always ready to die for Allah. They are ready to spread the message of Islam, ready to rescue someone weaker than they, even animals."

Hamas is primarily known outside Israel for its suicide-bomb attacks against Israeli civilians. The sheikh tells me that Hamas orders suicide bombers, under its military wing, the Iz al-Din al-Qassam, to attack Israeli civilian targets because Israeli troops and armed settlers routinely attack Palestinian civilians.

"As long as they target our civilians we will target their civilians," he says. "When they stop we will stop."

From 1987 to 1993, during the first intifada, Hamas targeted only Israeli soldiers and settlements. It began to attack individual Israeli civilians after a Jewish settler, Baruch Goldstein, gunned down twenty-nine Muslim worshipers in the lbrahimi Mosque in Hebron. But these attacks have had the added benefit of discrediting and weakening Arafat's authority, of exposing his helplessness in the face of settlement expansion, closures, and the shooting of unarmed Palestinians. Still, even the sheikh has used his time during Friday prayers to implore the young boys not to go out on the dunes.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 19 May 03 - 07:45 PM

When CarolC lies by ommiting this information, she becomes nothing but an appologist for terrorist murderers.

This is bullshit.

What she fails to tell us is that to Hamas, the "occupation" extends to every inch of historical Palestine, that is to say, all of Israel proper within the pre-1967 borders.

I have not seen or heard any quotes from Hammas that support what you are saying. If you can show me some from credible sources, I'll be happy to stand corrected.

I'm ashamed that I once actually kissed her as a friend. Never again.

You're quite the drama queen. You have a very deep need to see the worst in people, don't you? If I knew who you are, I might be able to respond appropriately, but since I don't, there is no way to even know if you're telling the truth, or just yanking my chain.

The Hamas leaders have made this clear time and time again. They have told Arafat that should he make peace with Israel, he will be executed.

Again, if you show me some actual quotes, I'll be happy to stand corrected.

And that, CarolC, is probably why Arafat has never missed an opportunity to sabotage the peace process.

It wasn't Arafat who sabotaged Oslo. That was Netanyahu, and the Jewish extremist who killed Rabin. And as we have seen, there were no Israeli deaths from PLO terrorism for at least two years while the Palestinians still had hope that Israel would honor it's agreements. You can't blame the failure of Oslo on Arafat, or the Palestinians, or on me, no matter how much your need to hate all of us makes you want to do it.

You can try to hold me responsible for all of the evils of the world if you want. But that's not going to change a thing. Even if I never type or speak another word on the subject, the number of innocents, both Palestinian and Jew, will continue to increase until Israel ends the occupation, or until all Palestinians are gone from Israel and the occupied territories. And if the latter happens, expect a lot of innocent Jews all over the world to be targeted with terrorist attacks, along with a lot of innocent Americans.

This has nothing to do with me or anything I might or might not want. It's just the reality that you and everyone else who cares about Israel has to deal with. As I said before, the numbers back me up on this.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 May 03 - 07:16 PM

So why did Israel fund Hamas?

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,New York City
Date: 19 May 03 - 05:43 PM

Hammas, an organization that is considered to be radical,has stated quite clearly what they want. They want an end to the occupation. It's pretty simple. You can attribute all kinds of evil motives to these people, but they have been consistant with their demands. End the occupation.

CarolC makes it sound so simple and the Israelis so despicable.

What she fails to tell us is that to Hamas, the "occupation" extends to every inch of historical Palestine, that is to say, all of Israel proper within the pre-1967 borders.

The Hamas leaders have made this clear time and time again. They have told Arafat that should he make peace with Israel, he will be executed. And that, CarolC, is probably why Arafat has never missed an opportunity to sabotage the peace process.

When CarolC lies by ommiting this information, she becomes nothing but an appologist for terrorist murderers. I'm ashamed that I once actually kissed her as a friend. Never again.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 19 May 03 - 05:26 PM

Once again I will state that I do not condone or endorse the killing of innocents, either Isreaeli or Palestinian.

Having said that, it isn't too difficult to understand what's going on if people can allow their hatred of Palestinians to stop clouding their ability to see.

Associated Press

"The larger group Hamas has said it carried out four attacks over the weekend that killed 13 people, including four bombers, and it made clear today that it would not halt the violence.

"As long as the occupation remains on our land and as long as the occupation soldiers are breathing our air we will continue our resistance," Hamas spokesman Abdel Aziz Rantisi said."

Hammas, an organization that is considered to be radical, has stated quite clearly what they want. They want an end to the occupation. It's pretty simple. You can attribute all kinds of evil motives to these people, but they have been consistant with their demands. End the occupation. I don't know about the Islamic Jihad organization. Maybe they have more extremist views.

So why are people like Hammas, who have clearly stated that they want an end to the occupation, doing things that could gum up the works in the latest "peace process"? If you see what is actually being offered with this "Road Map" scenario, it's not too difficult to understand why Palestinians find it difficult to swallow.

The guaranteed failure of the road map to peace in the Middle East

By Tanya Reinhart (professor at Tel Aviv University and the University of Utrecht)

Excerpt:

Israel responded also to the Road Map with the same old objections. It further emphasized that a negotiated halt to terror is not sufficient and what is required is a visible clash between the new security forces and the opposition organizations (namely, a civil war). Israel even demands that a Palestinian declaration of end of conflict and renunciation of the right of return must be given as a precondition at the beginning of any process, and not at the end. Again, none of this undermines the US position that Israel is the side that is seeking peace, the side "whose security is the key to the security of the world", as Condoleezza Rice put it. The US is ruled today by hawks whose vision is an unending war. Israel, whose leaders are always eager to go on another war, is an asset in this vision. There is therefore no basis for the belief that the US will allow anyone to force Israel to make any concessions.

On 13 March 2002, on the eve of Zinni's peace visit in the previous round, the Israeli army welcomed him with an attack on the Jabalya refugee camp in Gaza, in which 24 Palestinians were killed in one night. Now it has welcomed Powell with a wave of arrests and deportation of international peace activists. In the Pax Americana, there is no room for peace activists. Peace will be brought by the tanks.

Don't envy Abu Mazen By Uri Avnery (Israeli journalist, writer and peace activist)

And another by Uri Avnery:

A Road Map to Nowhere

Excerpt:

"Third question: Is there any kind of balance between the obligations on the two parties? The answer must be "no".

In the first phase, the Palestinians must stop the armed Intifada, establish close security cooperation with the Israelis and recognize Israel's right to exist in peace and security. They must also appoint an "empowered" Prime Minister (meaning, in effect, the neutralization of the elected president, Yasser Arafat) and start the drafting of a constitution that will meet with the approval of the Quartet.

What must Israel do at the same time? It must enable Palestinian officials (note: officials. This does not apply to the rest of the population) to move from place to place, improve the humanitarian situation, stop attacks on civilians and the demolition of homes and pay the Palestinians the money due to them. Also, it will dismantle "settlement outposts" erected since Sharon came to power, in violation of the government's guidelines. Who will decide to whom this applies? There is also no mention of freezing settlement activity in this phase.

Does anyone believe that Prime Minister Abu Mazen could put an end to Hamas and Jihad attacks without any political quid pro quo at all, and while the settlements keep expanding?"

Here's the actual text of the Roadmap in the US Department of State website

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 May 03 - 03:52 PM

There have been no less than five suicide bombings in Israel and
the occupied territories since Saturday night, killing 17 people and
injuring dozens of others. Indeed, the spate of violence overshadowed a historic meeting between Israeli Prime Minister Sharon and the new
Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas Saturday evening. They are the highest level talks between the two sides in more than two years.

So the "road map" peace plan has been put on hold, or perhaps destroyed, which is exactly what the Palestinian terrorists hoped to accomplish.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 19 May 03 - 02:53 PM

What's your point, Wolfgang?

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 19 May 03 - 02:45 PM

it all depends on your perspective and where you get your news.... The real truth is... (Carol)

We can be glad we have you to tell us the real truth in barely more than 20 % of all posts in this thread.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: AggieD
Date: 19 May 03 - 02:07 PM

'The Osamas and Arafats of this world want their own people dead'

I don't think this is the right way round, I just think that they are the sort of people who are intolerant of anyone who does not hold them as individuals who are supreme leaders & who want ultimate power. They are willing to sacrifice the lives of those around them for their cause, & see nothing wrong with using indocrinated people to do their dirty work for them.

This is just breeding the hatred that they want, & let's not be too innocent here, but there are many in the world who are simply happy to be led, & truly believe that their way is the only right way, & probably will always be intolerant.

Many of the young people that follow these causes have never known any other way than the hate they are told by the leaders & will never be able to understand the decent human right for everyone, no matter what creed or colour to live.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 19 May 03 - 01:56 PM

It's what Sharon wants, too, GUEST. He wants everyone to endorse his and the Likud party's agenda, which is to remove all Palestinians from Israel and the occupied territories. The only way for this to happen is for a lot of innocent Jews to get killed.

Never trust your safety to psychopaths who have no regard for human rights. Sharon is such a man. He doesn't care about you or anyone else. All he cares about is his agenda, his power, and his hatred of Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 May 03 - 01:46 PM

This just in, CarolC. Your another of Arafat's suicide terrorists struck today at a shopping mall in Northern Israel. At least 3 dead and 47 injured.

Hamas and Arafat's own Al-Asqa Martyrs Brigade commit these acts of suicidal terror knowing full well that Israel will have no choice but to retaliate and make things worse for the Palestinian people. That is what Arafat and his followers want.

On 9/11 Osama knew that America would have no choice but to retaliate. That is what he wanted.

The Osamas and Arafats of this world want their own people dead.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 19 May 03 - 12:01 PM

Here's an interesting link from the Israeli Jewish human rights organization, B'Tselem, about Israeli border guards beating innocent Palestinians to death. This article is quite stunning to me, because it's the first time I've seen any mention of any of these border guards facing prosecution. Maybe there's some hope after all...

Click on Beaten to Death in the "On the Agenda" section.

Here's an excerpt:

Border Policemen suspected of beating 'Imran Abu Hamdiya, 17, to death arrested

"On 19 April 2003, four Border Police officers were arrested on suspicion of having beaten to death 'Imran Abu Hamdiya, 17, in Hebron in December 2002. Four other Border Police officers were arrested on suspicion of abusing Palestinians, among them minors, and of stealing from Palestinian shops in Hebron.

The details of the Abu Hamdiya case were as follows: Around 8:00 P.M. on 30 December 2002, a Border Police jeep stopped alongside Abu Hamdiya, who was standing with friends outside his home in Hebron. According to testimonies given to B'Tselem, the Border Policemen put Abu Hamdiya into the jeep and left. A few of Abu Hamdiya's friends went to Hebron's industrial area, which is known as a place where Border Policemen take residents and beat them up. About forty minutes after Abu Hamdiya was taken, his friends found his body lying on the road in the industrial zone."


And in the same site, here's an article about a pregnant woman being crushed to death by the IDF...

Click on Woman Crushed to Death in the "On the Agenda" section.

Here's an excerpt:

"On the night of March 2, IDF forces invaded the Al-Burej refugee camp in what the IDF Spokesperson referred to as an "IDF action against the terror infra-structure." During the operation, the army blew up the house of 'Adel 'Abd a-Salam, whose son had committed, according to the IDF Spokesperson, a suicide attack in the Gaza Strip, wounding four soldiers.

As a result of the explosion, the wall of the neighboring house, the home of Shukri and Nuha al-Mukadame and their ten children collapsed. No one warned the members of the family or told them to evacuate the house. The mother, Nuha Al-Mukadame, 33 and nine months pregnant, was crushed to death under the rubble. Her husband and her children were all injured."

These two stories are just a very small tip of a very large iceberg. Palestinians are human beings just like you and me. Do you understand this?

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 19 May 03 - 11:38 AM

GUEST,New York City, what you probably don't know is that every time the Palestinians go to negotiate, the Israeli government goes into the Occupied territories and kills a bunch of innocent Palestinians.

See... it all depends on your perspective and where you get your news. You are getting a perspective that is slanted entirely in Israel's favor. The truth is something quite different than what is being reported in the US, and even in Israel.

The real truth is that every time Palestinian and Israeli moderates try to start a peace process, extremists on both sides start killing people. And as has already been pointed out by a guest in this thread, more than twice the number of Palestinians have been killed than Israeli Jews. I can show pictures too, if you want.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,New York City
Date: 19 May 03 - 07:51 AM

CarolC,

Everytime the Israelis agree to negotiate, the Palestinian suicide terrorists destroy any chance of the negotiations working. See photos of the latest Palestinian suicide terrorist attack by clicking here.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 03 - 12:43 PM

By refusing the offer, however stingy it might have been, Arafat made himself look like the bad guy,

Why? Why does this make Arafat look like the bad guy when it was Israel who reneged on the agreement it made with the Oslo accord? Don't you see what a spectacular double standard you and any other people who think this way have with regard to Israel and the Palestinians? In your mind, Israel can do no wrong. In your mind, Palestinians can do no right. This is a pathological mindset, and you will see only more and more suffering on both sides until you and any other people who think like this take a good look at it and correct it.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 03 - 12:34 PM

Forum Lurker, I would suggest that you read the articles about Barak's offer more carefully. Arafat couldn't have accepted Barak's offer and also have an independant Palestinian state. It would have been impossible to have a viable Palestinian state on the terms that were offered.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 18 May 03 - 12:24 PM

CarolC-So, you think that Arafat was right in rejecting Barak's offer? Politically it was idiotic, and morally the same. By refusing the offer, however stingy it might have been, Arafat made himself look like the bad guy, guaranteed continued Israeli presence in the 98% that was offered, and made it much harder for the Palestinian Authority to exercise the control necessary to prevent terrorism. The offer was not a generous end-point, but it granted much more autonomy than the present situation, and I can't see any reason to reject it except pettiness and an unwillingness to compromise. Half of what you wanted is a better position to negotiate for the rest of it than none at all.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 03 - 12:19 PM

Cheap shot, GUEST, and I defy you to find a single post of mine where I have advocated the killing of innocents.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 May 03 - 11:12 AM

Anyway CarolC, your heroic suicide terrorists got another seven Jews yesterday in Jerusalem.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 03 - 01:11 AM

No GUEST, you are wrong. People have been telling you lies. I've posted this documentation several times here in the Mudcat, but I'll post it again here for you.

This is what Shimon Peres had to say in 2001 about how the Oslo process was brought to a halt:

"We have a skeleton, we didn't complete the house. The Oslo agreement has had a rather short occasion to implement itself, and that was between 1993 and 1996. The Oslo agreement was stopped in 1996 when the government in Israel was changed and Mr. Netanyahu became the Prime Minister. I think that the foundations and the structure of Oslo are still the best ones available. And once we shall have an opportunity, we shall complete the building that may withstand the winds of the outside world, and the skepticism of the people."

--Shimon Peres, September 24, 2001

According to Yitzhak Rabin, Arafat and the PLO were willing to work with him in stopping terrorism. (This was during the time when the Palestinians still had hope because they thought the Oslo agreement would be implemented)...

"In the last two years, not one Israeli has been killed by PLO terrorism," Rabin said. The real threat, he said, does not come from Israel's old adversaries - he pointedly included Syrian President Hafez al-Assad in the faded threat category - but from "the ugly wave of" Iranian-supported Islamic fundamentalism.

--Yitzhak Rabin

And here is documentation about the myth of "Barak's Generous Offer" and who it was that ended that process:

The Myth of the Generous Offer

Distorting the Camp David negotiations
By Seth Ackerman

Here's what that article has to say about the start of the Intifada:

"The Intifada began on September 29, 2000, when Israeli troops opened fire on unarmed Palestinian rock-throwers at the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem, killing four and wounding over 200 (State Department human rights report for Israel, 2/01)."

The article goes on to debunk the myth of the "generous offer"

More documentation debunking the generous offer myth:

Adviser: Clinton Exasperated With Barak During Peace Talks

Camp David: The Tragedy of Errors

By Hussein Agha, Robert Malley

Myth of Israel's 'generous offer' damages truth, peace

By MIRIAM WARD

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 May 03 - 07:20 PM

No, CarolC, it was not Israel that abandoned the Oslo process. It was the Palestinians.

Under the Oslo agreement, the Palestinians agreed to abandon violence in favor of negotiations. However, in the last round of high level negotiations, between Israel's Barak and the Palestinians' Arafat at Camp David with President Clinton, everything ended and the 2nd Intifada began, when Arafat walked away rather than negotiate. About 1000 Israelis and twice that many Palestinians are now dead because Arafat killed the peace process.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 17 May 03 - 04:25 PM

Forum Lurker, I've posted the answer many times. The Oslo process was working wayyyyyy better than the approach being used by the Likud party. The numbers back me up on this. Israel abandoned the Oslo process before it ever took the steps needed to fulfill its obligations under the agreement it signed. That was a disasterous thing to do, and everyone except the Likud party are suffering because of it.

Trying to place the blame on the Palestinians will accomplish nothing except the deaths of a lot more innocent people. Israel needs to own up to it's own culpability in this matter, something I've never seen it even come close to doing since the death of Rabin. The first thing it needs to do is to remove the settlements and stop the occupation. The only other choice is to either kill or remove all Palestinians from Israel and the Occupied Territories. And if Israel does that, you can expect the deaths of a lot more innocent Jews and Americans in terrorist attacks. People do not willingly submit to oppression. Until the governments of Israel and the US understand this, the violence will continue to escalate.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 May 03 - 04:15 PM

A very good article from today's NY Times.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 17 May 03 - 04:05 PM

CarolC-The people who are truly putting in danger the lives of innocent Americans and Jews all over the world are the Palestinian terrorists. While I agree that the Israeli methods used to try to control the terrorist problem are ineffective and unnecessarily brutal, I have yet to see anyone put forward a proposal whereby the Israeli government can better ensure the security of the Israeli people than the current official policy. If you have a plan that you think would actually work, I am not the only one who would love to hear it.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 17 May 03 - 02:17 PM

Here's the Reuters article on the bombings:

Reuters

I've said in other threads (and I've taken quite a beating for it) that Israel's treatment of the Palestinians and the US's support of it, is putting the lives of innocent Americans and Jews all over the world in danger. And many, many people have said that the pre-emptive war on Iraq by the US and the UK would create a lot more terrorism from Islamic extremist, as well as diverting the efforts of the "War on Terrorism" away from the pursuit of al Qaeda, at the expense of the lives of innocent people all over the world.

Looks like maybe we were right.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,New York City
Date: 17 May 03 - 01:52 PM

"Morocco is one the only Arab/Muslim countries without a state history of persecuting Jews."

I meant to say: Morocco is one of the only Arab/Muslim countries without a state history of persecuting Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,New York City
Date: 17 May 03 - 01:50 PM

Four bombs, some suicide, some car bombs, have gone off in Casablanca, Morocco. So far, at least 24 people have been killed and scores more injured.

Islamic fundamentalists have claimed credit for this as an attack on the Jews. One of the destroyed targets was a Jewish synagogue. Morocco is one the only Arab/Muslim countries without a state history of persecuting Jews. Apparently, that isn't good enough for some in the Arab world.

Note that this was not an attack on Israel. This was an attack on Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: artbrooks
Date: 13 May 03 - 06:59 PM

As usual, you have not read your own link. It says the U-S also has begun paying health ministry workers twenty dollars to return to work. Please show me where it says "per month" in this article. This is clearly a simple bride, in spendable money, and has nothing at all to do with salaries.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 13 May 03 - 03:04 PM

If you didn't think Christians were responsible, WHY THE HELL DID YOU BRING THEM UP?!?!?!?!?


(several deep breaths later)

I'm going to stop responding to you, because I think that you have a genuinely pathological problem, and unless your tactics stop feeding your need for attention, you're never going to get the help you need. Goodbye, and good luck.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 03 - 02:09 PM

GWBush is no Christian. Lots of Israelis say Sharon is no Jew. The two men go through the motions...that's all. If Sharon ever went to the Cremation of Care ceremony at Bohemian Grove in California, where the Bushes go, or if GW ever took part in Moloch worship with Sharon elsewhere, that would explain a lot of things.

Jesus wouldn't have commanded US troops to go forth, cross seas and slaughter civilians for oil and opium. I don't know what the Jews' teachings are on the subject, but Jesus wouldn't have condoned that. Something else is guiding the actions of the two fascists. Simple greed? Earthly power? Or occultism?

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 13 May 03 - 12:34 PM

I find it amazing that you can tie fundamentalist Christians, fundamentalist Jews and Moloch worship together as if it made sense. Your ability to distort facts to fit your worldview is almost as extreme as that worldview itself.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 03 - 10:28 AM

The medical problems were underscored by the media in the US for 12 years...

Make that 'unreported' rather than 'underscored'

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 03 - 10:27 AM

Read the second article more closely. The man who was the driver. The twenty bucks a month is enough for two children, yet he was making enough to take care of 16 under the old pay system. The US bombed water, electrical and sewage treatement facilities for the past 12 years. 1.5 million dead Iraqis as a result. And now we suddenly give a damn about 'the children'? Bushit. The medical problems were underscored by the media in the US for 12 years (so the UN population-reduction program could gnaw away at Iraq), and now Iraqis are being slapped in the face with a twenty-dollar bill. All I wonder is who's responsible. The fundamentalist Christians around Bush? Clinton was one too, wasn't he, come to think of it. And old man Bush worships Moloch with his son. The Israelis? The Jews?

People read what they want into stories, and these are mostly 'feel good' pieces to make the world thinks the US is taking care of 'the children'. If not the US, the UN, by golly. Bless 'em. What crap. Twenty bucks a month is the new slave wage in Iraq. You'll make more only if you're one of Hussein's old henchmen and are willing to continue your murderous ways for the occupying forces as they build a new oil pipeline to Haifa.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 12 May 03 - 09:24 PM

DG-Read your own damn stories, and maybe you'll have a less skewed view of events. You're complaining that the U.S. is giving health care workers their first month's wages (the same wage they were payed under Saddam) up front? You only see genocide in the making because that's what you want to see. If you have a psychological need to believe that a global conspriacy exists, I seriously recommend therapy, ideally from a psychiatrist.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 03 - 04:33 PM

Oh...and when Ariel Sharon first became PM of Israel, he said in a candid interview where he seemed pretty surprised, that GWBush told him once they would be running the show.

GW was Guv of Texas and was scheduled to go to Israel. A reporter asked him why he was going, and he said so he could 'tell all the Jews they're going to hell.' That prompted an emergency visit from Billy Graham who told him to shut up, and it prompted an emergency visit from Bush # 1 who must have laid out part of the 'Big Picture' for Junior. Because when he got to Israel, GW met with Sharon and told him, 'someday I'll be President and you'll be Prime Minister'. Like a freakin' child with a secret. And Sharon seemed genuinely stupefied later on that the 'prediction' had come true.

All this is scripted, folks. And if Bush # 1 told GW years ago about the outcome of future elections, it makes me wonder what else has been orchestrated. Arab slavery?

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 03 - 04:25 PM

OK...this is why I asked about anti-semitism. Iraq HAD a middle-class of sorts, but now there is chaos in the country as the US tries to re-install Hussein's old Baath party people to run the country. But the Iraqis aren't buying it, so the US military is demanding all documents on the Baaths be turned over to them so people can be screened (we all know those records will be destroyed so the US can install whoever will be best for business). And then there are these stories:

Twenby bucks a month

More of the same

The twenty dollars a month will become Iraq's new wage. And this will put them in the bottom ten percent in the global economy. So, the US hammered the country, and out of the rubble comes a slave-state which was falsely told their freedom would lead to a better life based on oil wealth. But then there's this, on the topic of oil:

Israeli Booty

So, it appears the US (acting as an extension of the Organized Crime syndicate currently controlling the World Bank and all developed countries), just stole the oil from a predominantly Arab country and is imposing a future of slavery on them while Israel expects to benefit from oil promised to the U.N. for the 'benefit of all Iraqis'.

This seems to add up to the American military being used to turn Arabs into slaves for Israel, so it raises all kinds of questions about who is controlling the American agenda. And given what is in the news now about the Republican 'neo-cons' and their Israeli ties, any thinking American has to wonder what is going on. Are Jews and/or Israelis using the American military to enslave Arabs? Hundreds of Arabs are missing in the American legal system after 9-11, Arabs are being beaten to death at Camp X-Ray in Cuba by Americans, and now Arabs are being paid $20 a month in Iraq while Israel wants to steal Iraqi oil.

I understand not wanting to talk about unpleasant topics, but this is beginning to look suspiciously like outright greed and genocide. To my puzzled eye, at least.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 May 03 - 09:43 AM

Don't be so hard on yourself. The Jews didn't present a case here, from what I can see. In fact, many of them were abusive and displayed great intolerance of someone questioning their belief system. Thank you for enlightening us all. Just don't question the Hollywood connection would be my one suggestion. Things seemed to be going fairly smoothly until the movie stars were brought into it. Question the beliefs all you want, but keep your mitts off the box-office.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 10 May 03 - 04:10 PM

OK, you win. I see the error of my ways. For some time I've wondered about my conspiracy thesis; thanks for straightening me out.

As for my question as to what is anti-Semitism, I now see that I have exemplified it in these posts.

:) :) :) :)

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 May 03 - 03:21 PM

Well, Kol, we probably all feel unwelcome here now and then, for a tremendous variety of individual reasons, but should we be afraid to talk about it? I hope not. Talking beats killing people any day, as far as I'm concerned...and it beats refusing to talk to them too.

DG - You now see why it is a good idea to actually register as a member on the forum. If you do that, then no one can pose as you and post stuff that supposedly comes from you, just to cause you trouble.

The other solution, of course, is just to remain totally anonymous, but then how do you make friends and get to know people and have them know you? That's been the best part about Mudcat for me. I have gotten to know some interesting people and it's added much to my life.

- LH

Subject: Question to Joe Offer
From: GUEST,Kol Baseder (Lo)
Date: 10 May 03 - 02:51 PM

This is why I've never registered...hundreds of PM's from pissy Jews because I asked what anti-semitism is? I don't think so.

Joe Offer,

There is much anti-Semitism -- blatant lies and hate-mongering -- in this thread in the postings of Dreaded Guest, or just plain Guest, as he calls himself in the last post.

I fail to see how free speech on Mudcat is advanced by allowing someone to lie and hate-monger.

Would you allow blatant racism and lies about African-Americans to be repeated ad nauseum in the Mudcat Forum the way that Dreaded Guest's blatant anti-Semitism and lies about Jewish people and the Jewish religion have been repeated ad nauseum inthis thread?

I think a forum where issues are debated openly is a wonderful thing. Speaking as a Jewish person, I have no problem with debates about Jewish theology, we Jews debate such issues all the time. I have no problem with debates about Israel and the Palestinians.

I do, however, think that Mudcat should draw a line in the sand and say that racism, anti-Semitism, homophobia, etc. will not be tolerated
and that such posts will be removed.

I found Mudcat through a link from another folk music site. One of the things that first attracted me to folk music was its inclusivness; its openness to all people and all cultures.

In my opinion, allowing Mudcat to be used, even if only by one despicable person, as a forum for anti-Semitism, makes me as a Jew, feel unwelcome here.

Kol