USA, Black Lives Lost in Police Actions

Subject: RE: USA, Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: GUEST,sawzaw
Date: 21 Dec 14 - 09:13 PM

The medic, who works in Southwest Philadelphia, posted a photo to his personal Instagram account of two black men pointing guns at the head of a white police officer. The accompanying message said: "Our real enemy ... Need 2 stop pointing guns at each other and at the ones that's legally killing us and innocents."

Subject: RE: USA, Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Dec 14 - 12:56 PM

I would ask Sawzaw's usual pissing-contest partners to leave those posts for my reply as soon as I can get to them.

I don't know if I qualify as one of Slack-Jaw's USUAL partners, but will gladly step aside. "To you, from failing hands we throw the torch: be yours to hold it high." Have fun with the brain-dead asshole.

Just as an aside: why is no-one complaining about "white on white crime"- wich is considerably more prevalent than "B on B".

Subject: RE: USA, Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 Dec 14 - 12:36 PM

Guest/11:36, the problem with our communication is not that I did notcread or understand all of your post-- much of which I might have said myself, I agreed with it so much. I just don't see what you mean when you say that gang culture is the main issue between US Blacks and police, so I'm asking you to say more so that I might understand.

From my view, gang activity has seldom been involved in the deaths cited. Pethaps the gang issue is a side issue better explored in another thread. (And I'd participate if you started such a thread if you used a consistent handle in it.)

~S~

Subject: RE: USA, Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Dec 14 - 11:36 AM

The post was already too long, if you weren't willing to read past the first paragraph. Gang culture is just the latest of a long history of desperate responses to the conditions imposed by racism, but it's the dominant mechanism right now for African-American conflict with the police.

Subject: RE: USA, Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 Dec 14 - 11:04 AM

I was referring to: Their problems with the police are largely due to gang culture also.

Please expand on how this does not form a basis for my response?

==================

And in case anyone doubts it, I deplore white deaths, too.

~S~

Subject: RE: USA, Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Dec 14 - 10:32 AM

W y s i w y G "I do not agree that gangs are responsible for deeply internalized white biases..."

No one said that. The post you replied to said that gang culture arises from conditions created by discrimination, not the other way around as you somehow concluded.

Subject: RE: USA, Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 Dec 14 - 10:15 AM

I would ask Sawzaw's usual pissing-contest partners to leave those posts for my reply as soon as I can get to them. There is some thinking in the posts I would like to address, and I agree that ad hominem attacks are never helpful.

=========================

GUEST 20 Dec 14 - 09:24 PM,

I do not agree that gangs are responsible for deeply internalized white biases that preceded gangs in the US and that have killed people where gang activity is nil. This is why I disagree:

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/11/science-of-racism-prejudice?utm_content=buffer71c92&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
herjones.com/politics/2014/11/science-of-racism-prejudice?utm_content=buffer71c92&utm_medium=social&utm_source=tw">The Science of Why Cops Shoot Young Black Men


=========================


GUEST 20 Dec 14 - 11:07 PM,

REMEMBER, not one police officer has been killed since Trayvon Martin was murdered, while several Black men and children have been.

1. I applaud the great restraint exercised since Trayvon Martin's death. Indeed I applaud the great restraint of Blacks since their arrival in the US in captivity, though it pains me to know how much that restraint has cost them and that it arises partly from fear
.
2. I deplore that Black friends are having to shout loudly that they are against the murder of these two officers AS IF they would not OF COURSE have NOT wanted for it to have happened, AS IF they must now share responsibility due to their skin color. This is another example of racism-- the co-opting of news to try to take the attention away from the peaceful and effective protests (multiracial, too) that have been so powerful of late.

~Susan

Subject: RE: USA, Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: Sawzaw
Date: 21 Dec 14 - 09:21 AM

PS I meant to say why is it my garbage?

More on "tribal thinking":

The Tribal View

On the one hand, a tribal view takes membership in the group as the most important characteristic of an individual. An individual's worth and identity are tied to his or her membership in the group. So, for instance, in Rwanda, it mattered little that a person happened to be a good mother, a faithful wife, a generous member of her community or, simply, a human being. All that mattered in the spring and summer of 1994 was whether she was Hutu or Tutsi. No other characteristic mattered when the Interahamwe attacked.
Additionally, from the tribal perspective, the group itself takes on a kind of mythic existence. Its relationship to other groups may take on the quality of a morality play: a timeless conflict between good and evil. So, from a tribal perspective, even history can be understood only with reference to the group. Current conflicts are often "remembered" as past historical events.

The Enlightenment View

In contrast, an Enlightenment view sees individual rights, rather than group membership, as the basis for an individual's worth and identity. Because these rights are located in individuals, it does not matter whether or not the individual is a member of a majority or minority ethnic group (or any other type of group for that matter).

Subject: RE: USA, Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: Sawzaw
Date: 21 Dec 14 - 09:08 AM

"Take your garbage elsewhere, eh Slack-Jaw? "

Why is it my garbage? It is Americas garbage. It is published "music". Why should I edit it?

It is the reality that some people want to ignore. If you ignore it it still exists. Young people listen to this. Does it affect them in any way? Could the existence of this be part of the problem? Why keep it out of the discussion?

Problems are not solved by focusing on one facet. You have to get to the root of the problem.

Does the term Slack-Jaw or Sore Jaw have any meaning other than to try to discredit someone in an ad hominem attack? Ad hominem attacks are not a solution to anything.

"Ad hominem attacks can take the form of overtly attacking somebody, or more subtly casting doubt on their character or personal attributes as a way to discredit their argument. The result of an ad hominem attack can be to undermine someone's case without actually having to engage with it."

So it you want to disprove my statement, why not discuss the statement itself?

For example how is it garbage and why should it be taken elsewhere?

If you notice, I haven't attacked anyone personally.

Subject: RE: USA, Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 21 Dec 14 - 12:15 AM

Oops the above should have read "intended for" sorry.

Subject: RE: USA, Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 21 Dec 14 - 12:13 AM

?What Anne Frank joke? Also, relevance of any of my jokes? Have I made any on this thread?

Also, I remain firm in my belief that the whitewashing of these deaths as losses, and of shootings as actions, takes away from the very tragedy this thread was originally intended. Shame on the whitewashers, I say, but I guess a little more quietly. Still. Really.

Subject: RE: USA, Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 14 - 11:07 PM

Cops' Killer Angry Over Garner Death

A gunman who announced online that he was planning to shoot two "pigs" in retaliation for the chokehold death of Eric Garner ambushed two police officers in a patrol car and shot them to death in broad daylight Saturday before running to a subway station and killing himself, authorities said.

The suspect, Ismaaiyl Brinsley, wrote on an Instagram account: "I'm putting wings on pigs today. They take 1 of ours, let's take 2 of theirs," officials said. He used the hashtags Shootthepolice RIPErivGardner (sic) RIPMikeBrown.

Police said he approached the passenger window of a marked police car and opened fire, striking Officers Rafael Ramos and Wenjian Liu in the head. The officers were on special patrol in the Bedford-Stuyvesant section of Brooklyn.

http://www.newsmax.com/US/US-NYPD-Officers-Shot/2014/12/20/id/614257/#ixzz3MU9K4Hyw


Bernard Kerik: De Blasio, Sharpton 'Have Blood on Their Hands'

Former New York City Police Commissioner Bernard Kerik told Newsmax that Saturday's execution-style shooting of two uniformed police officers was ultimately encouraged by Mayor Bill de Blasio and the Rev. Al Sharpton — and "they have blood on their hands."

"de Blasio, Sharpton and all those who encouraged this anti-cop, racist mentality all have blood on their hands," he said. "They have blood on their hands."

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/kerik-police-killings-nypd/2014/12/20/id/614261/

Subject: RE: USA, Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 14 - 09:24 PM

Most of the killing of young black men is by gang warfare. Their problems with the police are largely due to gang culture also.

But the fact that so many black youths choose gang life is a sign of a racist society. They choose gang life because unequal educational and employment opportunity leaves them with little hope for a better option.

Society should correct that, and should take whatever steps are necessary, regardless of cost, to ensure that African-Americans have as much hope and as much stake in civil society as anyone else. Only long-term, deep-seated racism stops us from doing that.

Africans were brought to this country against their will, and were robbed of their culture and families. Nothing has ever been done to compensate for that loss. All other ethnic groups came here with family and cultural ties intact, but we disregard the tremendous importance that plays in human development, and the great advantage all other sub-cultural groups therefore have over African-Americans.

As John Gorka wrote:
If the wind is at your back,
and you never turn around,
you may never know the wind is there;
you may never hear a sound.

Subject: RE: USA, Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Dec 14 - 02:40 PM

Mrr, since I am the OP, any complaints about this thread properly come to me, so I will answer yours. I proposed the retitle to clarify the direction for this thread, and a Mudcat mod made the requested change(s). If you know a better way to say what I said PLUS what you said, and fit it into a thread list, I'm listening.

You are free, as you know, to be the OP of any thread titled however YOU want to title YOURS.

Regarding your reactive rant:
Who renamed this thread so nambypambily? They aren't lives LOST - they are lives TAKEN. They are DEATHS. They are not "losses" as if it were a game, or as if we didn't know what happened to them. Shame, Mudcat, shame.
And "Police action" pah! That's what we called the Korean WAR and it was a terrible thing to say then too! Whoever remaned this is whitewashing the fact that police are SHOOTING people TO DEATH. Seriously, what has happened to this forum?


The point of any memorial is not to scream for the justice, but to remember the lives of the people lost. One goal in this thread (which you have apparently not read by merely reacted to) is taking the view of the whole person these victimized people were, not just the death images paraded through the media.

What has happened to this forum is that reactivity has lost us many good members. (I would remind people of those members who recently died or nearly died, who first stopped posting here on an active basis.)

IMO, there is no shame here, except maybe reactivity as a replacement for actual thought after mature reflection.

Please, take a breath, read my posts in this thread, and then contribute positively.

~Susan
(Who still can't get your ill considered Anne Frank joke out of my head.)

Subject: RE: Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 Dec 14 - 12:06 PM

Who renamed this thread so nambypambily? They aren't lives LOST - they are lives TAKEN. They are DEATHS. They are not "losses" as if it were a game, or as if we didn't know what happened to them. Shame, Mudcat, shame.
And "Police action" pah! That's what we called the Korean WAR and it was a terrible thing to say then too! Whoever remaned this is whitewashing the fact that police are SHOOTING people TO DEATH. Seriously, what has happened to this forum?

Subject: RE: Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Dec 14 - 11:28 AM

Could this sort of thing be part of the problem?

It is a perfect illustration of US Black internalized oppression, but that you posted it without removing the offensive language is part of another problem, sawzaw.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Dec 14 - 09:59 AM

Take your garbage elsewhere, eh Slack-Jaw?

Subject: RE: Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: GUEST,sawzaw
Date: 20 Dec 14 - 06:25 AM

Could this sort of thing be part of the problem?
Sorry for tho language.

Do Or Die – Kill Or Be Killed Lyrics (partial)

I'ma take a life quick as I take a breath
And I ain't excepting this bullshit
I'm livin just like I ain't excepting death
Preconception left you son-of-bitch you stuck
Hit you with this thang - on the tock with a name - cause a killa just buck
Never wire me up - the center of yo essence past to file me up
It a be plenty mo' crimes ceases and pourin me swigs
A nigga just got fuck up
Visualize a fly gettin smashed by a battle rag
Put it in da frame Nigeroe get the picture who I am
(Who it is)
Zero muthafukin zero
Cooler than that wind when you hit that corner bitch
So don't fuck with me hoe - cause we know
How drama calculate - testing out niggaz fate
Keep yo head straight - avoiding that dead weight - shit up out the gate
I often feel when shit get drastic
I'ma make a motherfucka notice my production of these closed caskets
Fucked up get blasted - since preschool on some bad shit
Your first and last pick - its kill or be killed on you bastard

Subject: RE: Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Dec 14 - 10:04 PM

~M~,

Re: "The far larger number of young black men killed by other young black men is just as much a symptom of that racism"

.,,.

How so? Not clear to me at all.

≈M≈

Black on Black crime-- where it's disproportionately higher than white on white crime-- is largely a function of internalized oppression. You're UK, right? US stereotypes about Blacks are internalized by Blacks, which is part of internalized oppression.

MORE


However, Black on Black crime is not an issue of citizens of all colors, cultures, income level, and social status paying people in uniforms via tax dollars-- to protect the people they are killing.

Black on Black crime would be a separate topic from this thread.

==============

RIJ Ms. Rekia Boyd, age 22, March 22, 2012, an innocent bystander killed when an off-duty cop shot and killed a "dangerous person wielding a gun" nearby-- which turned out to be a cellphone.

When Chicago Police Detective Dante Servin heads to court next January for the fatal shooting of Rekia Boyd, a 22-year-old unarmed black woman, he will be the first CPD officer in more than 17 years to be tried for a shooting death.

Servin appeared Wednesday in a Cook County court, where his case was delayed until Jan. 21, 2015 -- more than a year after his indictment on charges of involuntary manslaughter, reckless discharge of a firearm and reckless conduct in connection with Boyd's death. Earlier this year, the city paid Boyd's family a $4.5 million wrongful death settlement. MORE

===================

RIJ Joseph Gould. In July 1995, Joseph Gould, a black 36-year-old homeless Chicago newspaper vendor, was shot and killed by Gregory Becker, a white, off-duty Chicago police officer. Becker served four years in jail after a jury found him guilty of involuntary manslaughter and armed violence in 1997, though an Illinois appellate court later overturned the conviction, claiming the two charges were inconsistent.

That was the last time (before Rekia Boyd's death) that a Chicago police officer was tried over a shooting. Until the new bill before Obama, police departments were not required by law to share these statistics with the DOJ or anyone else. MORE

==================

~Susan

Subject: RE: Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: Sawzaw
Date: 19 Dec 14 - 09:37 PM

"an arsehole who tries to use their deaths to justify a bunch of gung ho killers in uniform, setting out to even the score by killing black people indiscriminately"

Who would that arsehole be?

What did the arsehole say that indicates any of the things you accuse him of?

You make specious characterizations of what you imagine he meant and try to turn it into fact.
-----------------------------------
Instructions on what others should do or think in the form of personal ad hominem attack. A bigoted racial slur:

"SoreJaw is, and always has been, brain-damaged white trash. Ignore it."

Subject: RE: Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: Sawzaw
Date: 19 Dec 14 - 09:22 PM

"The notion that white cops are out there just killing black people -- that's ridiculous. That's just flat-out ridiculous. I challenge any black person to try to make that point. Cops are actually awesome. They are the only thing in the ghetto between this place being the wild, wild west. So this notion that cops are out there just killing black men is ridiculous and I hate that narrative coming out of this entire situation.We've always had a racial issue in this country and the biggest problem with it is we never discuss race until something bad happens. We never have meaningful dialogue over a cold beer when things are going good. When something bad happens, everybody has a tribe mentality. Everybody wants to protect their own tribe, whether they're right or wrong. There's a reason why police racially profile the black community. We as black people, we got a lot of crooks. We can't just wait until something like this happens. We have to look at ourselves in the mirror. There's a reason they racially profile us at times. Sometimes it's wrong, sometimes it's right. To act like we hold no responsibility for some of this stuff is disingenuous."

Sometimes I do not give a source but I do not think up horrible things and claim someone said it. The reason I do not name a source is because people should be curious enough to search for the source after they read it.

Some people base the validity of what someone said first on who said it rather than analyzing what they said. Then they go no further. Concluding "if so and so said it it is a lie" or "if so and so said it, it is automatically the truth" Each person needs to have the ability to analyze statements for them self rather than rely on someone else to do their thinking for them.

Getting back to who said what, the most hated or dumbest person in the world that we disagree with might actually speak the truth at any time. Conversely the most beloved, wisest person in the world that we always agree with can be totally wrong on occasion. Every single thing you hear or read or see needs to be analyzed separately from who said it.

Think for yourself and reject "tribe mentality"

Subject: RE: Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Dec 14 - 02:59 PM

"The far larger number of young black men killed by other young black men is just as much a symptom of that racism"

.,,.

How so? Not clear to me at all.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Dec 14 - 01:59 PM

Dear Critizers,

I was asking for thought about a possible permathread title, and I am listening.

In THIS thread, the title is what it is, and if anyone wants a different thread, of course you are free to simply start one and garner as much conversation as wants to respond to it.

Part of the mechanism of Racism is the way whites can so easily be moved into discord over Racism itself. I prefer we not fall into that reactive trap.


Elsewhere upthread, I agree with:

The far larger number of young black men killed by other young black men is just as much a symptom of that racism. What we need to address is the social structure that places so many young black men in a position where their only options so often lead to a violent end.

I salute others who are engaged in that foundation-aimed work. For a time, I was, myself. Now, my own gifts and opportunities to contribute to that work (and what has followed on the heels since many undertook it) have led me recently to work under Black leadership in the US.

That Black leadership comes from across the wide spectrum of Black thought, and is asking for something specific in a continuum of action-- to meet the particular place US culture is at right now:

They're asking us to know the stories they have been living.

I'm interested in all positive thought about the overall work, but this thread need not be a place to argue priorities. If yer doing that work in your own sphere, goodonya. I'd love to hear good-news stories about all the work people in this thread are doing! It would sure give us all a more accurate context from which to try to hear our differing perspectives.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 14 - 10:43 AM

This focus on police action is just using the police as scapegoats for the racism of our society as a whole. The far larger number of young black men killed by other young black men is just as much a symptom of that racism. What we need to address is the social structure that places so many young black men in a position where their only options so often lead to a violent end.

Subject: RE: Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 14 - 10:24 AM

Don't like new title, agree with this:

The real failing is that we allow the headline of the meme being "Another black man shot by cop" rather than "Another man shot by a racist cop". It's not the colour which matters, but the racism, and collecting your data according to the wrong criterion lets those really responsible off the hook. From: GUEST,Rahere Date: 06 Dec 14 - 07:43 PM

Subject: RE: Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: Sawzaw
Date: 19 Dec 14 - 10:12 AM

PS: Are the ever any lives saved by Police actions? Do they deserve any credit for that?

Subject: RE: Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: Sawzaw
Date: 19 Dec 14 - 10:05 AM

Disproportionate to what?

Is this the only unjust manner in which unnamed b***k men are killed? How about women? how about children? How about the other races? How about the person doing the "killing"? How about the circumstances?

Why is anyone taking up the issue of the adult males one race being "killed" by another race while unarmed?

If it is a humanitarian issue it would objectively encompass all deaths under all circumstances and it would not label them "killings". Then it would focus on the largest preventable cause in order to find a solution. Then focus on the next.

Vicious personal attacks about differences do not solve anything. They make matters worse.

Subject: RE: Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: GUEST,Sawzaw
Date: 19 Dec 14 - 09:41 AM

The thread focuses on one race and is therefore racist.

I am told:"I suppose that it is racist, in your view, to suggest that we stick to the topic of the thread, which is:-
THE DISPROPORTIONATE NUMBER OF YOUNG UNARMED BLACK MEN KILLED BY MAINLY WHITE COPS!"


Is this the only unjust manner in which unnamed b***k men are killed? How about women? how about children? How about the race of the person doing the "killing" How about the circumstances?

Subject: RE: Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Dec 14 - 08:04 PM

I like the name change on the thread. It will probably also have to apply to other uniformed authorities' actions-- for example, I heard recently that security guards whose records should prohibit them from carrying weapons are hired to do just that-- the security firms don't always do their due diligence in checking them out. The one I heard about had a pretty nasty temper vulnerable to racist conditioning, as much as armed police are infected with the same poison the rest of the US struggles with.

I'm not LOOKING for these incidents BTW, but if a trusted source points me to an incident I will list its victim.

~S~

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Dec 14 - 05:02 PM

Thanks, Troubador. Just curious, do you have a membership? Are you on FB? (Can you get word to me offthread?)

The scope widens again. (A permathread would have to be very carefully titled, such as "Black Lives Lost in Police Actions," becausse:

Death of Aiyana Jones
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Born         Aiyana Mo'Nay Stanley Jones
July 20, 2002
Detroit, Michigan, U.S.
Died         May 16, 2010 (aged 7)
Detroit, Michigan, U.S.
Cause of death
        Gunshot
Resting place
        Trinity Cemetery
5210 Mount Elliott Street
Detroit, Michigan 48211
Nationality         American
Other names         Aiyana Stanley-Jones
Ethnicity         African American
Citizenship         United States
Known for         shot in police raid
Parents         Charles Jones (father) Dominika Stanley (mother)

Aiyana Mo'Nay Stanley Jones (July 20, 2002 – May 16, 2010), was a seven-year-old girl from the east side of Detroit, Michigan who was shot and killed during a raid conducted by the Detroit Police Department's Special Response Team on May 16, 2010.[3] Her death drew national media attention[4] and led U.S. Representative John Conyers to ask U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder for a federal investigation into the incident.

Officer Joseph Weekley was charged in connection with Jones' death. In October 2011, Weekley was charged with involuntary manslaughter and reckless endangerment with a gun. Weekley's first trial ended in a mistrial in June 2013.

Weekley's retrial began in September 2014. On October 3, the judge dismissed the involuntary manslaughter charge against Weekley, leaving him on trial for only one charge: recklessly discharging a firearm.

On October 10, the second trial ended in an another mistrial.

Photo of an angel the raiding police never thought to worry about before shooting in an occupied building:

MONAY JONES IN LIFE

~Susan

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 18 Dec 14 - 01:17 PM

That last guest is me.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 14 - 01:16 PM

"I'm wondering though if a permathread to list/explore the lost Black lives would be of interest"

If the opinions of a UK outsider don't too deeply offend GfS and SoreJaw, I think that such a permathread would be a very good idea, as well as being a kind of "Digital Tradition of the Oppressed", accessible to students of philosophy, Morals and Ethics!

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 18 Dec 14 - 01:10 PM

"Perhaps we can agree to keep this thread focused on Black lives lost and troll/react elsewhere....." Isn't focusing on one race racist?

This statement is also racist:" --Sawzaw!

I suppose that it is racist, in your view, to suggest that we stick to the topic of the thread, which is:-

THE DISPROPORTIONATE NUMBER OF YOUNG UNARMED BLACK MEN KILLED BY MAINLY WHITE COPS!

Just to set you on the right track, in case you hadn't noticed the plethora of links proving the truth of that topic.

Take your fingers out of your ears, stop chanting "LA-LA-LA!" and look at the links, particularly the ones posted by Susan and Richard, which show only too clearly the scope and nature of this crime.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Dec 14 - 12:05 PM

NEXT STEPS?

A lot of the off-topic discussion here has been useful, tho I must admit there were moments I'd have loved an edit button.

I'm wondering though if a permathread to list/explore the lost Black lives would be of interest, to enough of the positive contributors to this thread, to justify the work of maintaining one.

Before I look further into that, I'd love to see how many of you might care to have one; Mudcat has often been bashed for not having much Black participation and/or for being overall racist (which I have always disagreed with). But maybe a non-music permathread is not something wanted.

AFAIK, there is no one resource anywhere yet, on the stories and real lives of the Black human beings killed in police custody. The NAACP has started lists-- and I have seen a few of those that included links for more info for the more recent news-- but IMO it's worth someone's time to look further back... I suspect the leadership of the NAACP (of which I am a mere member) has more urgent business, so I would like to do it.

Thoughts?


~Susan

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Dec 14 - 10:09 AM

Focusing on one race is racisim.

Not in this universe, SoreJaw

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,sawzaw
Date: 18 Dec 14 - 08:02 AM

"see if he feels that condemnation of officers concerned is racism, as he claims!"

I have claimed no such thing. This is projecting. Focusing on one race is racisim. Deaths of people of all races at the hands of police officers of all races must be considered. To filter out every death that does not fit the "screed" is cherry picking and it does not lead to justice.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Dec 14 - 03:43 AM

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/investigations/exonerated-after-execution-judge-tosses-teens-murder-conviction-n270176


Goofball - you have heard the words "ally" and "support", and "justice" haven't you?

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 11:13 PM

Troubadour: "In the UK, us white Anglos, sing songs of all sorts (including from your as yet to be civilised domain), with our White, Black, Brown, Asian, Eastern European and just about all other nationalities friends!"

Trouby-Babes, I was not referring to the UK, which is a lot different than here.......Over here, we have these 'Oh so concerned' bullshit artists', pretending to to champion the cause of African Americans.....by helping to keep them down...so that they, can go on pretending to give a damn, therefore deluding themselves as being useful!!!...True story..

..and BTW, the first musical group I was in, was 5 black singers(one lead, four back-up), a white drummer, and a white guitarists(me) and a white bass player....and NOBODY gave a shit about skin color...but we DID CARE about the music....we did a lot of Motown stuff...I was 16-17....and nobody was shot by any cops!!!.....and we all got along.
That being said, I grew up in L.A., which did not have quite the same racial oppression, as in the South..(Bobert Country).

Over here..and even IN here(Mudcat Forum), you have white 'folkies' who have probably never even had a black in their audiences(assuming that some of them even had audiences), nor in their group, stage, or even neighborhoods...pretending to give a shit...it's only political posturing.....here, you think I'm making this up???....Here's someone else's musical take on it, from the early '60's, before 'liberalism' was co-opted by the Democrat Party: From a REAL political protester, and social commentator ...... ....AND.... ..a more contemporary take on it.... READ his comments below the video!!!..........I'm not alone!

GfS

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 10:43 PM

quote: "Another US dumbhead who doesn't realise that our police also face gang members with illegal guns."

So how many of your police were killed in the line of duty last year?

Here in the U.S. that number was 100. That's the lowest it's been since 1944. The highest was 280, in 1974.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 09:10 PM

"An, P.S......Don't you just love it when WHITE Anglos, who play mostly WHITE folk music, with their WHITE friends, converse with other only WHITE 'so-called liberal' WHITE folk singers, about the bias against blacks???"

And now you've proved what a pig ignorant racist you really are Goofus!

In the UK, us white Anglos, sing songs of all sorts (including from your as yet to be civilised domain), with our White, Black, Brown, Asian, Eastern European and just about all other nationalities friends!

Only in your tiny shriveled excuse for a narrow mind do we think in terms of WHITE music.

We leave that sort of bigotry to YOU and your ilk!

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 09:06 PM

(Thanks, RB.)

~S~

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 08:48 PM

And here's a linky for the Dan Schatz piece.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rev-dan-schatz/on-being-asked-to-change-_b_6326614.html?utm_hp_ref=religion

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 08:43 PM

Yes, the bit in capitals is correct. As far as I know.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 08:18 PM

When, in areas with a a predominantly white police force, unarmed black males are killed by officers 21 times as often as white males, it is difficult to see how anybody BUT a racist can seek to justify such situations.

Sawzaw should look at some of the links posted on this thread and see if he feels that condemnation of officers concerned is racism, as he claims!

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 07:42 PM

"McGrath, thank you for reminding us that England has strict gun control laws, so that policeman have nothing more dangerous to deal with than drunken football fans. Now, do you have anything to say relevant to the topic of this thread?"

Another US dumbhead who doesn't realise that our police also face gang members with illegal guns.

We work very hard to ensure that our cops operate without fear or favour and treat all citizens equally. It doesn't always happen, but at least, our black youth face nothing more damaging than a "Stop and Search"!!

Our cops dont't f**cking SHOOT 'em!

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 07:13 PM

Hear Mudcat's own Dan Schatz say it so much better than I can:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rev-dan-schatz/on-being-asked-to-change-_b_6326614.html?utm_hp_ref=religion

~S~

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 06:55 PM

Many people think that slavery is slavery. In fact there are many g
forms of slavery. While they share in common that one group profits from the free, enforced labor of another group, the US built CHATTEL slavery deeply into abd throughout its legal system, economy, culture, education system.... etcetc into all aspects of life.

A very good documentary contains a lengthy passage about these differences and about the role Africans played in the slave trade: 500 Years Later, http://www.500yearslater.com/

Slavery itself (and its many legacies), as practiced over time in its many forms, is far more complex than the casual bandying about of one single word. Using that word simplistically, from a view based on our limited understanding of it from today's cultural mindsets, just doesn't have much relationship to reality.

Those mindsets have grown with steady infusions of half-truths and misdirections. There is a system defending itself from view. White people are conditioned to divide up against one another through these reactive, accusatory arguments when really, if we instead simply allowed our hearts to feel all the horror of what we're discussing here, we'd band together to stop it.

Do we all want to stop it?

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 06:16 PM

Is that bit in capitals correct ? Across the whole globe ? Or don't different shades of brown or pink count ?

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 04:32 PM

Fuck do you not understand racism? ONLY ONE SET OF PEOPLE THROUGHOUT HISTORY HAVE BEEN DEEMED TO BE SLAVES BECAUSE OF THEIR SKIN COLOUR. They are still adversely treated as a result.

There is another set of people who have been since about 600BC treated less favourably by reason of their membership of that set - but by and large they seem to have transcended that treatment and by and large are no longer adversely treated and in many cases are economically successful.

Racism can only be experienced if you are part of a disadvantaged set. To speak of racism against people with white privilege is moronic.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,Sawzaw
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 03:24 PM

This statement is absurd:

"But it is absurd to believe that anti-white racism, practiced by people of color, remotely equates as a social problem to white racism against people of color. While all racism is equally objectionable morally and ethically, they are not practically equivalent by a long shot."

This statement indicates that people of one race are prone to act differently from people of another race and that they are created different. Racism by any race is still racism unless all men are not created equal. The statement contradicts itself.

Perhaps you are subconsciously thinking one race may be inferior in their capabilities and need to be sheltered from another race.