BS: Is closing threads censorship?

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 May 06 - 07:55 PM

You seem to be trying to make Mudcat into a forum that centers around Shambles, and I don't think it's fair to the rest of us to allow that to continue.
Joe Offer

Does anyone really believe this is the one and only reason for the latest attempt to inhibit and prevent open discussion on this subject..........?

For it would be a truly terrible thing and of course this would be the most unfair aspect of our forum for it would appear that it must now center only around the Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team.

The only thing I have done is to try and post my views. That is the whole purpose of our forum. For this I have been subjected to threats and probably more abusive personal attacks and called more names that perhaps any other poster on our forum. I have never responded in kind to any of these nor to what is quite clearly personally motivated and selective censorship actions.

Whether these views are all posted in one thread or subject to yet more imposed restrictions, will not change the situation. However, it will only bring more attention to how far our forum has been changed from Max's intentions for it. These latest threats will not prevent honest attempts to enable open discussion to take place on our forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: catspaw49
Date: 05 May 06 - 06:35 PM

LOL.....Yeah jeff, but Garg is kinda' like the "House Troll." He's mellowed some over the years and he certainly had his moments, but he has always been a good source of info on certain musical topics and contrary to other trolls, he has a sense of humor that he shows at times.

During one of my near death experiences in the past eight years, he sent me a card at the hospital. It had a typical Garg message on it but also just a bit of seriousness as well. The best thing was that he sent me a "Congrats On Having Your Baby" card!!! He has also communicated privately a few times with some pretty good stuff.

Hey....He may be an ass.....but he's our ass!!! When he was "on his game" no one around here now could hold a candle to him.....and quite a few have wanted to!!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 06 - 06:32 PM

Why on earth should anyone consider banning shambles? He hasn't lied or decieved anyone. IF the truth isn't palatable then skip his posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: jeffp
Date: 05 May 06 - 06:22 PM

Garg was banned for a while. He was allowed to return by Max after they talked on the phone. He is tolerated for some reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: GUEST,Martin gibson
Date: 05 May 06 - 06:17 PM

bill D.

Point D    You should get a life and not worry so much about what others post here. Or in other words, don't like it? Ignore it. trouble is, you can't. Perhaps you need help to deal with what Shambles posts here.

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 06 - 06:14 PM

``People need to trust each other and their government. The idea that people in government are lying is fundamentally destructive of that trust.''

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 06 - 06:13 PM

Tell that to Gargoyle.

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: jeffp
Date: 05 May 06 - 06:04 PM

If they truly wanted to silence him, he would be gone.

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 06 - 05:20 PM

But as some of us see it bill, Shambles isn't tilting at windmills. He is putting his point across without abuse. As that point is proven steadily by the inconsistent moderation on here, those guilty of this inconsistency get increasingly frustrated and it is they who tilt like windmills.

They have tried most tricks in the book to silence him. Why? Because he is right.

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: Peace
Date: 05 May 06 - 05:15 PM

"RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?"

Depends on who ya ask. It ain't who ya know, it's who ya blow.

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: Bill D
Date: 05 May 06 - 02:05 PM

Martin...I don't have to know Skokie to know the KKK's plan was NOT a good plan or even a good way to make their point!...YOU know very well my example of Skokie was only an extreme example of how a person or group can couch what they want in language that makes it all seem SO exemplary, while ignoring the discomfort and nuisance value to others.

   Giok's explanation of the PELS protest is another example...this time of Roger's good intentions executed badly- flooding everyone he could with 'news' and abusing the system....but at least most everyone was in favor of the spirit.

Now we have interminable threads ABOUT his dissatisfaction with how Mudcat is administered. He pesters on point 'A' until he provokes someone to respond with words beyond polite reason, then makes that response point 'B'...and connects A & B with linguistic twists until he gets 'edited' by thread closings...which becomes point 'C'....and so ad infinitum.

After 5-6 years of this, he has a labyrinth of interlocking posts and points which he uses to 'prove' each other....most of which would not exist if he hadn't nagged, provoked and complained unreasonably in the first place!

   I have known personally a couple of people who over-used some sense of "righteous indignation" and went off tilting at windmills like Shambles is doing - and like him, it was VERY difficult to get across to them why it was not being very successful....now it has gotten HIM even more limitations in his quest!

   I have no illusions that anything we say will help...but maybe having it 'confined' to a smaller area will help the flow of other things.

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 May 06 - 12:56 PM

When someone is saying what you don't want them to say but you recognise that they have as much right to say what they wish as you do - you still have a number of options to use to try and prevent them.

Some of these options can be painted to look as though they are perfectly valid and some are less easy to disguise - but make no mistake - the whole range of these options (or red herrings) have certainly been displayed for all to see on our forum.....

But whatever is said and no matter how you may feel about it - there is never any excuse ever respond with abusive personal attacks and name-calling. For any 'moderator' to even once indulge in such things is inexcusable and demonstrates they are unfit for the responsibilites of such a role.

And anyone who repeatedly did this to Max's fellow invited guests - should recognise that in repeatedly showing such examples they have become the single largest factor in encouraging such 'conflict' on our forum and for them to even wish to continue to impose judgement under such circumstances. where any remaining credibilty is gone - is a very sad joke.

Especially when publicly admitting the failure of all these petty restrictions to impose the 'peace' they require without impose yet more restrictions.

Can they and those who support these imposed restrictions and are obviously unhappy with Max's wishes - please start a site of their own?

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: GUEST,Martin gibson
Date: 05 May 06 - 12:37 PM

In addition, calling for anyone's removal because you either hate them, hate what they say, the way they act, short of them being complete evil, is really just a lot of whining and is also censorship in my book.

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 05 May 06 - 12:30 PM

BWL, amen to what you say. I completely agree. Moderators cannot be open members. Just like umpires or referees can't play on one of the teams.

Subject: RE: BS: Non posting of judgements week.
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 May 06 - 12:25 PM

As no one can determine when the week ends it will continue for all eternity.

Or until this thread is closed too............

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 May 06 - 12:02 PM

From what I hear, there had been lots of calls for Shambles to be excluded long before this present impasse, and Joe Offer refused to remove him many times. So you can imagine how frustrating it must be to stand up for someone against all comers, and still see that person go out of his way to aggravate the situation. Eventually if you're human you lose the plot, which Joe did, so then all the others who had been complaining for ages piled in and re-said their piece. Once Joe had slipped the avalanche ensued. That's why it seemed like gang warfare I think, it was people telling Joe "I told you so".
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 05 May 06 - 11:55 AM

That "If you don't like the Mudcat the way it is, leave!" mentality continues to boggle my mind. I DO like most of it just the way it is. Does that mean I should keep my mouth shut about what I don't like?

Here's what I don't like:

1) That one particular moderator seems to let his personal opinions of other members get in the way of doing his job in an impartial manner. He has a history of deleting posts and closing threads based upon who said something, not what was said. Maybe he needs to attend a few 12-step program meetings and learn about putting principles before personalities.

2) That the chief moderator allows himself, in times of stress, to lapse into the personal attack mode that is one of the handful of things forbidden around here. If anybody else were to slam a member the way J.O. does when he gets hot under the collar, that post would be deleted. If somebody needs his ass chewed, it needs to be done in private, not in the open forum.

Other than that, I'm pretty much happy as a clam around here... except when someone tells me that expressing my concerns about what I don't like is, somehow, improper.

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 05 May 06 - 11:41 AM

Giok

yes, it does clarify. And the facts you have presented are all true it seems. I don't think the part you described about Shambles though is as important as the points you made about how he was treated by the admistrative people of this forum.

I guess that's what bothers me.

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 May 06 - 11:32 AM

It's a bit disingenuous to say that Shambles was dissed for fighting for something he believes in Martin.
Somebody changed the title of one of his threads without asking him, which caused such an outpouring of angst from Shambles, that one would have thought he had been physically castrated without anaesthetics.
As I understand it, the thread title referred to the PEL legislation which was going through the House of Commons at that time. This PEL bill affected only England and Wales, and in order to clarify matters for the uninitiated, the letters UK were added to denote that the thread concerned matters in that country.
Helpful thing to do I think, although it should have said England and Wales not UK, as the act does not affect Scotland!
After all why would the users of a US based web site, with a world wide membership be interested in this 'little local difficulty', it seems like an odd place to choose to run his crusade. Maybe he would have been censored on most other sites which are not as liberal as the Mudcat?
Now nobody is doubting Roger's sincerity or dedication in fighting this cause, the PEL bill is a catchall that unfairly impinges on the activities of people who love to make music in pubs and village halls in England and Wales, and should be rescinded immediately.
His swamping of the threads with quotes, was over reaction in spades, his personal vendetta against the clones in general and Joe Offer in particular has strayed a long way from an anti PEL campaign.
His extrapolation of an editing action into a full blown anti moderation campaign defies logic.
It is in short his methods and not his motives that are the cause of concern to many people on here. It is a bit like shooting doctors outside abortion clinics, because you disagree with the practice, or digging up the remains of someones Mother as a means of blackmailing that person into stopping breeding guinea pigs for medical research.
While on the surface of it Shambles being 'dissed' for holding the views he does is unjust, and his careful selection of his quotes might make it seem like that, this is merely the part he wants you to see to gain sympathy, it is not for the reasons he states that he has been asked/told to cease his carpet bombing of the threads.
There have been mistakes made along the way, and this has added to the confusion, Joe Offer entered into public discussion/comment with Shambles, which he should never have done. Known clones have said they'd be happy to see him gone, which they shouldn't have done. All clones should be anonymous, with the possible exception of Joe Offer as a conduit for liaising with Catters in private. And no critical comments should be added to posts by clones EVER! Informative additions only allowed!
However we are where we are, and there is no going back, so perhaps we should all keep schtum for a bit while people cool down.
Sorry if this is a bit long and perhaps not the polished polemic I would aspire to, but I hope that it clarifies some of my thoughts.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 06 - 11:20 AM

Mudcat is what it is. Plain and simple. Either like or don't. If you don't, you can always start your own forum where everything can be just the way YOU want it. Why torture yourself with a forum that drives you crazy? Start your own if you don't like this one. Then, when we visit you, we would have to abide by YOUR rules. Wouldn't that make you happy? Or don't they let little pimple-faced pud fucks in cubicles at the telemarketers office start their own forums?

Jaze what it was and what it has become are two different animals. And stop shouting dear it's very unbecoming.

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 May 06 - 11:14 AM

This thread of course is asking if the closing of threads is censorship and nothing to do with the following which about censorship and attitude. But as the discussion is not permitted to take place in the the clearly titled thread - it will have to take place in this one.

Whether the attitude that seems to be currently encouraged on our forum of judging the worth of our fellow posters and trying to find way to prevent them from posting where and what they choose - is desirable, has anything to do with Max's intentions for our forum, why this has happened and how/if this attitude can be changed?

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 May 06 - 11:05 AM

But is this not backwards? Shouldn't YOU have to find a good reason to close a thread rather than posters having to find a reason that you then judge good enough to re-open it? Posters do not (currently) have to find a good reason to start a thread - why should they be expected to have to find a good reason for you to re-open it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 May 06 - 10:19 AM

You won't be deleted,number 6, no one is ever deleted. Sometimes you run into an "overly enthusiastic Clone".

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: Peace
Date: 04 May 06 - 11:50 PM

Depends on whose shitlist yer on at any given time, Martin.

BTW, Shambles isn't limited to one post. The sentence read something along the lines of him being limited to one thread to talk about censorship. Hell, at least then ya know where the clones will be.

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: Once Famous
Date: 04 May 06 - 11:30 PM

wry grin, Bill D? Maybe in your own mind. I'd say more like a shit faced grin.

And don't compare this to skokie, because you haven't got a clue. I went to high school in Skokie and live one town over currently. Been around that town all of my life.

comparing the KKK to a guy like Shambles trying to make a point that he believes in on a web forum is ludicrous, basically stupid, and typical of your pseudo-intellectual and politically correct posturing.

Limiting him to 1 post is censorship, when there are no other limits imposed on anything or anybody else.

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: Bill D
Date: 04 May 06 - 10:57 PM

Cloudy in the West, and it Looks Like Rain"

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: number 6
Date: 04 May 06 - 10:36 PM

I can't say Peace .... I might get deleted.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: Peace
Date: 04 May 06 - 10:31 PM

Canada: So, sIx, how's the weather?

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: number 6
Date: 04 May 06 - 10:27 PM

"what's a Stephen Harper?" ... he's Bush's boy up here in Canada.

He's the current Prime Minister of Canada.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: Bill D
Date: 04 May 06 - 10:25 PM

never mind...Google showed me. Guess I'm behind on the news.

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: Bill D
Date: 04 May 06 - 10:24 PM

?? what's a Stephen Harper?

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: Peace
Date: 04 May 06 - 10:16 PM

. . . or Stephen Harper?

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: Bill D
Date: 04 May 06 - 10:13 PM

"... dissed for doing nothing but standing up for what he believes in."

nothing BUT?...And the KKK were 'just' gonna march thru Skokie, standing up for what they believe in...showing how proud & patriotic they were...*wry grin*..(yeah, that's an extreme example of overdoing it...but you get the point, maybe)

It seems a bunch of folks want to stand up for what they believe in, too...namely, that Shambles' technique is disruptive and misleading. As you can see, Shambles still has the opportunity to say pretty much what he pleases...in one thread at a time....he just can't do the Mudcat equivilant of renting a truck with loudspeakers and driving thru many threads at once, posting, re-posting years old quotes and filling the air with tedious, repetitious rehashing.

Not a perfect solution to either his goals or Joe & the clones problemsm but we'll see how it goes.

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: Peace
Date: 04 May 06 - 10:09 PM

"pimple-faced pud fucks"

George Bush?

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: jaze
Date: 04 May 06 - 10:04 PM

Mudcat is what it is. Plain and simple. Either like or don't. If you don't, you can always start your own forum where everything can be just the way YOU want it. Why torture yourself with a forum that drives you crazy? Start your own if you don't like this one. Then, when we visit you, we would have to abide by YOUR rules. Wouldn't that make you happy? Or don't they let little pimple-faced pud fucks in cubicles at the telemarketers office start their own forums?

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: bobad
Date: 04 May 06 - 10:03 PM

TOM WAITS - "Emotional Weather Report"

late night and early morning low clouds
with a chance of fog
chance of showers into the afternoon
with variable high cloudiness
and gusty winds, gusty winds
at times around the corner of
Sunset and Alvorado
things are tough all over
when the thunder storms start
increasing over the southeast
and south central portions
of my apartment, I get upset
and a line of thunderstorms was
developing in the early morning
ahead of a slow moving coldfront
cold blooded
with tornado watches issued shortly
before noon Sunday, for the areas
including, the western region
of my mental health
and the northern portions of my
ability to deal rationally with my
disconcerted precarious emotional
situation, it's cold out there
colder than a ticket taker's smile
at the Ivar Theatre, on a Saturday night
flash flood watches covered the
southern portion of my disposition
there was no severe weather well
into the afternoon, except for a lone gust of
wind in the bedroom
in a high pressure zone, covering the eastern
portion of a small suburban community
with a 103 and millibar high pressure zone
and a weak pressure ridge extending from
my eyes down to my cheeks cause since
you left me baby
and put the vice grips on my mental health
well the extended outlook for an
indefinite period of time until you
come back to me baby is high tonight
low tomorrow, and precipitation is
expected

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: Peace
Date: 04 May 06 - 09:58 PM

It's the weather what done it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: Once Famous
Date: 04 May 06 - 09:05 PM

Could be, Guest

Why not call bs what it really is.

bullshit

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: number 6
Date: 04 May 06 - 09:04 PM

Never mind fish, dairy, meat or shellfish ... Just don't talk about the weather.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 May 06 - 09:03 PM

It's agenda presumably was somewhere for people to come and discuss music above the line and bs below it.

It has morphed into some people's surrogate front room. Where people sit in their favourite chairs and nod in agreement at each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: Once Famous
Date: 04 May 06 - 08:52 PM

Thank you, MTed

I do want this thread to stay open because this is a serious issue.

Shambles has been dissed for doing nothing but standing up for what he believes in. The people who have a problem with him quite frankly are dickwads who obviously get uncomfortable in their own world of political correctness. These are the people who are being "protected" by such things as posts being deleted, thread closures, etc.

Fuck them!

I think there is a mirage here. A mirage of fairness and indifference.

Boo Hoo. Wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! My feelings got hurt by someone on a web site. Quick! Delete that. Pretend it wasn't there.

What the fuck is the real agenda of Mudcat anyway?

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 May 06 - 08:30 PM

I thought you couldn't have meat and fish in the same thread. You can have dairy in the fish threads, but not in the meat threads. And no shellfish threads at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 May 06 - 08:06 PM

Fodder begins with F. Which is too close to fish for comfort.

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: bobad
Date: 04 May 06 - 07:47 PM

Sometimes I get the distinct impression that someone is using this forum to harvest data for a PHD thesis on the dynamics of internet behaviour. Lately there has been no shortage of material which could be analyzed and processed into academic fodder.

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 May 06 - 07:44 PM

Wet Dream......Kip Adotta

It was April the forty-first
Being a quadruple leap year
I was driving in downtown Atlantis
My barracuda was in the shop
So I was in a rented stingray
And it was overheating

So I pulled into a Shell Station
They said I'd blown a seal
I said, "Fix the damn thing
And leave my private life out of it
Okay pal?"

While they were doing that
I walked over to a place called the Oyster Bar, a real dive
But I knew the owner
He used to play for the Dolphins
I said "Hi Gil"
You have to yell, he's hard of herring

Think I had a wet dream
Cruisin' thru the Gulf Stream
Ooh Ooh Ooh Ooh
Wet dream

Gil was also down on his luck
Fact is he was barely keeping his head below water
I bellied up to the sandbar
He poured me the usual

Rusty snail, hold the grunion
Shaken not stirred
With a peanut butter and jellyfish sandwich on the side
Heavy on the mako

I slipped him a fin
On porpoise
I was feeling good
I even dropped a sand dollar in the box for Jerry's squids
For the halibut

Well the place was crowded
We were packed in like sardines They were all there to listen to the big band sounds of Tommy Dorsal
What sole

Tommy was rockin' the place with a very popular tuna
Salmon Chanted Evening
And the stage was surrounded by screaming groupers
Probably there to see the bass player

One of them was this cute little yellowtail
And she's giving me the eye
So I figured this is my chance for a little fun
You know, piece of Pisces

But she said things I just couldn't fathom
She was too deep, seemed to be under a lot of pressure
Boy, could she drink
She drank like a . . .
She drank a lot

I said "What's your sign"
She said "Aquarium"
I said "Great, let's get tanked"

Think I had a wet dream
Cruisin' thru the Gulf Stream
Ooh Ooh Ooh Ooh
Wet dream

I invited her to my place for a midnight bait
I said "Come on baby, it'll only take a few minnows"
She threw me that same old line
"Not tonight, I gotta haddock"

And she wasn't kidding either
Cause in came the biggest, meanest looking haddock
I'd ever seen come down the pike
He was covered with mussels

He came over to me and said
"Listen, shrimp, don't you come trollin' around here"
What a crab
This guy was steamed
I could see the anchor in his eyes

I turned to him, I said
"A-balone, you're just being shellfish"
Well, I knew it was going to be trouble and so did Gil
'Cause he was already on the phone to the cods

The haddock hits me with a sucker punch
I catch him with a left hook
He eels over
It was a fluke but there he was
Lying on the deck, flat as a mackerel
Kelpless

I said "Forget the cods Gil
This guy's gonna need a sturgeon"
Well, the yellowtail was impressed with the way I landed her boyfriend
She came over to me, she said
"Hey, big boy, you're really a game fish
What's your name"
I said "Marlin"

Think I had a wet dream
Cruisin' thru the Gulf Stream
Ooh Ooh Ooh Ooh
Wet dream

Well, from then on we had a whale of a time
I took her to dinner, I took her to dance
I bought her a bouquet of flounders
And then I went home with her
And what did I get for my trouble
A case of the clams

Think I had a wet dream
Cruisin' thru the Gulf Stream
Ooh Ooh Ooh Ooh

Wet dream
Cruisin' thru the Gulf Stream
Ooh Ooh Ooh Ooh

Wet dream
Cruisin' thru the Gulf Stream
Ooh Ooh Ooh Ooh

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: Peace
Date: 04 May 06 - 07:43 PM

Not crabs, PLEASE!

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 May 06 - 07:39 PM

Or what? The thread will flounder?

We might tuna you out?

Someone might carp on your choice of fish?

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 04 May 06 - 07:38 PM

And now that fish has been mentioned in this thread it can't be mentioned in any other thread until next Tuesday. It's okay to mention crabs, shrimp, squid, or oyters on another thread, but you can't call them "shellfish" since that has the word "fish" in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: Peace
Date: 04 May 06 - 07:38 PM

Well, closing threads works, because that thread still has unanswered questions on it. And they ain't being asked anymore.

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 May 06 - 07:28 PM

It suited some people to make it into a shambles issue. Like I said in a probably closed thread, I watched as my posts supporting shambles were deleted. And I wasn't alone. But you can only play that game for so long. And the longer it went on the lazier those playing it became until it was transparent.

And peace you do know that by mentioning tuna and salmon in the same thread contravenes the 92nd ammendment. One thread one fish.