BS: Killed for being black? Florida today

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 07:59 AM

CNN has enhanced the audio, and its technicians cannot confirm any use of the word "coon" or any other racial epithet.

There apperars to have been a scuffle, since police saw that Zimmerman's back was wet, and his nose was bleeding.

Two neighbors say they saw Zimmerman astride Martin's back, pinning him to the ground.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 05:47 AM

Richard, I have searched several sites and found no convictions against George Zimmerman. Could you please give links to actual convictions.

Being questioned by police over a matter is not a conviction.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Megan L
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 04:58 AM

We here so much this side of the water about the great christian belief of america, perhaps those with guns would do better to give more consideration to the 6th commandment rather than the 2nd amendment.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 04:46 AM

I have just searched the Daily Mail site and do not find any such reports. While looking I did find this (not on the Daily Mail site): -

http://xxlittlethoughts.tumblr.com/post/19661288191/what-everyone-should-know-about-trayvon-martin

I would also point out that there is no record (that I have found) of Trayvon Martin having been examined for any other injuries than the gunshot wound.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 04:18 AM

According to the Daily Mail, the youth was dealing drugs in the area, he was illegally inside a gated area, the recording clearly showed George Zimmerman feared for his life and the lives of others.

It is not a clear cut case.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 11:26 PM

Before anyone comments further, please go read Lieutenant Colonel David Grossman "On the Psychology of Killing". He is a Professor of Psychology at West Point, and an Army Ranger.

What you hear of this incident will make perfect sense.

One key idea is "dehumanization", as exemplified by the quote "Fucking Coon".

Okay 2nd amendment people...how do you keep guns out of the hands of the Zimmermans of the world. Really. How?

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Janie
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 09:50 PM

Becky, I want to add my thanks to Spaw's for hunting out and posting the links you have.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 09:03 PM

This guy is going down... 48 hours and he'll be arrested...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Leadfingers
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 08:50 PM

Well when it makes The Torygraph , SOMETHING has to happen

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 07:26 PM

George Herbert Walker Bush was a better statesman and strategist than his sons will ever be. He was the one who put the no-fly zone in place that kept Saddam in line for years. Clinton enforced it just the way Bush I set it up. It was Dubya who decided he could do better.

I've heard Jeb is the smarter of the Bush sprouts. He'll be in town to speak on Friday, but I'm not planning to attend.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 07:09 PM

He does seem to get into a lot of confrontations and claim that he was the victim.

There is a pattern of paranoid behaviour emerging.

"It's not me guv, it's all the others.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 06:23 PM

""Under the state's "stand your ground" law, introduced by Governor Jeb Bush in 2005,""

That explains a lot. Sapling's after equalling Daddy Shrub's body count.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: bobad
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 05:32 PM

"Court documents obtained by The Orlando Sentinel Wednesday afternoon reveal domestic violence allegations surrounding George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watchman who shot and killed 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.

Records show that Zimmerman's ex-fiancé filed a petition against him for allegedly pushing her in her home after insisting he leave in August 2005. The woman said Zimmerman became upset over not receiving and took her cell phone before shoving her. A fight broke out between the two with the woman's dog biting Zimmerman in the cheek.

Zimmerman filed his own petition, claiming his ex-fiancé started the fight by inviting him over and refused to give him the documents he owned, which included mortgage papers and a car loan.

The ex-fiancé also reported that Zimmerman grouped her against her wishes in 2002 and "open handed smacked" her in the mouth in 2003. She wrote that during the alleged groping, Zimmerman "said he could because I was his woman."

Zimmerman however claimed he was the victim, alleging that his ex-fiancé assaulted him with a baseball bat after attending a concert together in November 2002.

Based on their petitions against each other, Zimmerman and his ex-fiancé were given restraining orders, with both expiring on August 24, 2006.

Zimmerman is currently hiding, as Martin's family and many others locally and nationally call for his arrest. A grand jury will investigate the case starting April 10."

The Raw Story

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 02:25 PM

A quite detailed and interesting legal analysis by Andrew Cohen (he's also legal analyst for 60 Minutes and CBS Radio News) of "the details and unanswered questions that will come to light when the case goes to court next month" is here: Trayvon Martin's Killer Was Looking for Trouble -- and Found It (article at The Atlantic online).

That article has a link to an article in the Miami Herald (which may have been linked further upthread here), Shooter of Trayvon Martin a habitual caller to cops, which details Zimmerman's history as the head (and apparently sole member) of the neighborhood watch.

I don't think it likely there's any particular conspiracy here. There is a well-intentioned person who built himself into an overzealous mindset of responsibility and authority -- who carried a gun, and who had a certain picture in his mind of what a criminal looked like. In spite of the neighborhood being 20% African American, a black person was a potential criminal:

Travis Williams, a black 16-year-old [neighborhood resident] who wears dreadlocks, said last year a man came to his house and accused him of stealing a bicycle. The police even came and checked the serial numbers on the bike in his garage.

I'm not seeing mentioned much that Zimmerman did end up with a wound on the back of his head. There was some physical struggle. But the whole encounter should never have started.

As a mother of a white 17-year-old boy, I was struck by these comments by a young (20s) black couple who live in the neighborhood (from the Miame Herald article):

They discussed the topic with Zimmerman when the watch captain knocked on their door late last year. Zimmerman seemed friendly, helpful, and a "pretty cool dude," Ibrahim Rashada said.

"He came by here and talked about carrying guns and getting my wife more involved with guns," he said. "He said I should have a weapon and that his wife took classes to learn how to use one.

"I do have a weapon, but I don't walk around the neighborhood with mine!"

Actually, he does not walk around the neighborhood at all.

"I fit the stereotype he emailed around," he said. "Listen, you even hear me say it: 'A black guy did this. A black guy did that.' So I thought, 'Let me sit in the house. I don't want anyone chasing me.' "

For walks, he goes downtown. A pregnant Quianna listened to her husband's rationale, dropped her head, and cried.

"That's so sad," she said. "I hope our child doesn't have to go through that."

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 12:46 PM

Yeah, Spawzer... You got it... The right wing in this country is trying to leap back to the 1800s...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: bobad
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 11:37 AM

I wouldn't be surprised to hear that Zimmerman has some kind of connection to a police force, like as a paid informant or something along that line. The fact that those charges against him were dismissed and that it appears he is being given special treatment in not even being arrested let alone, charged looks pretty suspicious.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 10:32 AM

"Zimmerman had at least one previous record for assault.   Public records show he was arrested in Orange County in 2005 on charges of resisting arrest with violence and battery on a law enforcement officer. The charges were later dropped"

So without Richard's trickery of words, that translates to George not having any conviction.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 10:07 AM

Yeah, Spaw, like I said- we sure have come a long way from Emmett Till & Hattie Carroll, ain't we?

I dunno, tho, about a time warp. Maybe just a case of collective delusion, and we convinced ourselves thatt things were much inmproved over the 1950's & 60's, when in fact nothing had really changed at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 09:41 AM

Anybody else feel like this country is in some kind of time warp?

This case, (a white guy with a gun who outweighs the young black youth by 100 pounds and is obviously stalking the kid using equally obvious racial profiling and language to boot) and others like it seem to be too common anymore. And something like that is common?

We are trying to dismantle social programs, women's issues are regressing back well past 50 years ago, health care goes back in lockstep with the rest, and we are approaching another Truman-Dewey election, and all the while fervently praying to god with more ardor than ever as we ask for his blessing on this on all of this shit????

I used to worry about the future but now I don't as it really isn't the future where we're going but the past!   Wake me up when we get back to about 1775 or so. I want to have a few words with with Jefferson, Paine, Franklin, and a few other guys.....kinda' plant a little bug in their ears........


Spaw


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 07:50 AM

Some apparent facts here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin

I have done a little more digging and it seems most probable that

1. Trayvon Martin had no prior record of being charged or convicted of criminality
2. Zimmerman had at least one previous record for assault.   Public records show he was arrested in Orange County in 2005 on charges of resisting arrest with violence and battery on a law enforcement officer. The charges were later dropped. His neighbourhood watch activities had sparked complaints from residents. The tapes of calls seem to record him calling Martin a "fucking coon".
3. The policeman who initially refused to arrest Zimmerman, Sergeant Anthony Raimondo in 2010,declined to arrest Justin Collison, who brutally attacked a black homeless man, leaving him unconscious and breaking his nose. Collison, who is white, is the son of a Sanford police officer and the grandson of a former Florida judge. Collison was intoxicated at the time of the unprovoked attack. Also, a Youtube video captured the attack while it occurred. Despite having possession of the video, Raimando still refused to arrest Collison. Police only arrested Collison after the national media released the video and criticized police handling of the case.


At the moment I find it hard to envisage a clearer case of a racially motivated pursuit and murder - a case of "walking whilst black". How Zimmerman could pick on Martin, chase Martin, and shoot the unarmed Martin and still claim that he reasonably thought he was acting in self defence is wholly baffling even under the fairly ridiculous and ill drafted and thought out Jeb-Bush signed "stand your ground" local law.

That law however does make a good case for federal pre-emption to create a US wide consistent law of homicide.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 07:39 AM

Yes Terry, I have listened to the calls.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 07:27 AM

"they should support George Zimmerman?"
From this morning's Times
Jim Carroll

SCHOOLBOY'S DEATH SPARKS CIVIL RIGHTS ROW
FBI to investigate after killer cites self-defence law
United States Nico Hines Washington

The shooting of an unarmed black school¬boy in Florida has forced the US Justice Department and the FBI to launch a federal investigation after his killer escaped arrest by citing controversial self-defence laws.
Trayvon Martin, 17, was walking home from a shop carrying a bag of sweets for his little brother when he was shot dead by a neighbourhood watch leader who thought the boy might be "up to no good".
Almost a month after his death civil rights leaders, an international petition and a campaign by prominent African-Americans has forced the federal Government to intervene in the case.
Police in Sanford, central Florida, had claimed that there was no reason to doubt the words of George Zimmerman, 28, who said that he had shot the teenager in self-defence. Under the state's "stand your ground" law, introduced by Governor Jeb Bush in 2005, Floridians are allowed to use lethal force to defend themselves in public places if they feel threatened.
Mr Zimmerman's story began to fall apart under the glare of the national media when officials released a phone call that he made early on the evening of February 26. The neighbourhood watch "captain" asked the emergency services for assistance in dealing with a suspicious looking man.
"This guy looks like he's up to no good," Mr Zimmerman said to the police operator. "These ass****s. They always get away."
Hearing what sounded like heavy breathing, the police handler asked: "Are you following him?"
When Mr Zimmerman confirmed that he was in pursuit, the operator asked him to stop. The boy, who had started to run away, called his girlfriend to say that a strange man was following him.
Neighbours from the gated Twin Lakes community, near Orlando, heard a com¬motion and called the police. One of those calls appears to have inadvertently cap¬tured Trayvon's cries as Mr Zimmerman caught up with him. "I recognised that as my baby screaming for help," Sybrina Fulton, his mother, said. A few minutes later her child was dead.
When police officers arrived at about 7.20pm Mr Zimmerman told them that he had been forced to defend himself from an attack. Previous provisions in self-defence laws had demanded that citizens retreat before using force but those limitations were removed under Mr Bush and local police said that they had no choice but to let the man go free. Similar gun laws have since been adopted by 20 states.
After more than three weeks of protest a central Florida prosecutor said last night that a grand jury would be convened to reconsider the evidence. That announce¬ment came after the rare intervention of federal law enforcement agencies.   
A spokesman for the Justice Department's Civil Rights Division said that there would be an independent review of the investigation while the Congressional Black Caucus accused the Sanford police department of displaying a "blatant disregard for justice".
Tracey Martin, Trayvon's father, has given a series of television interviews in which he has claimed that his son was racially profiled "He knew he was being followed and tried to get away", he said.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Leadfingers
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 07:21 AM

GUEST Bluesman - Have you listened to the 911 cals ? Where did you hear that it was Mr Zimmerman who was screaming for help ? and why , pray , would a man with a gun scream for help ?

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 07:15 AM

So if Americans have a right to make reasonable provisions for their own defence (as the NRA would doubtless assert) then I suppose young black men will be forced to conclude that they should all be carrying guns.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Leadfingers
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 07:00 AM

I have worked out why 'some people' dont have membership here .

Its so that they can post absolute crap , and NOT get any nasty facts sent by PM pointing out what crap they are spouting !

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 06:08 AM

Why are liberals sticking up for Trayvon Martin when they should support George Zimmerman?

My guess is it's because they can't stand their own cowardice. George was protecting his community from a 'suspicious' outsider - George's own words. Clearly, George can be heard screaming for help, and liberals hid in their houses, because 'they didn't want to get involved' - also on tape. Absolute cowardice. Thank God George was able to defend himself from this vicious attacker.

Did you know that Bob Dylan's real name is Robert Allen Zimmerman?

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,hg
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 12:14 AM

"Justifiable homicide" has increased three fold since the enactment of "stand your ground." The law has not decreased crime as some have argued
here repeatedly.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 10:12 PM

I'd agree Bill. I have no legal training or qualifications, but I reckon I could prosecute this one and get a conviction.

Of course the prosecution will have to think seriously about the case being heard elsewhere, with the Mayor, the DA and the Chief of Police, doing their very best to load the jury in favour of this "Pillar of the Community".

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 09:31 PM

I predict that Zimmerman WILL be in jail soon...

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 08:50 PM

Bottom line here is that the shooter was instructed by law enforcement to leave the kid alone and they had folks on the way...

Yet after that the shooter stalked the kid and killed him...

The prosecution rests...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 08:47 PM

Bill.......As I stated above, early on a number of Florida lawmakers and others said this law would lead to shootouts. It brings the professional vigilante onto a legal footing! It really is nuts. I think this case will bring this law back into the news enough to see some action in repealing it.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 08:45 PM

Bill, I think that will be investigated, and I HAVE heard/read people asking the same question.

This can't possibly be considered self defense. Zimmerman got out of his vehicle, even though the police dispatcher told him NOT to, and pursued Trayvon Martin. Judging by the phone call he made to the police where he talks about seeing a suspicious-looking, probably-black male and complaining about how they always get away in a pretty calm-sounding voice, I think it was possible he just wanted to force a confrontation and shoot somebody.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 08:27 PM

""Why isn't someone making the point that "stand your ground" seems to say you can shoot almost anyone you don't like and claim "self defense"?

Unless, of course, YOU are black! Then it would be an instant murder charge, a swift prejudged conviction and, in all probability, the death penalty!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 08:17 PM

Why isn't someone making the point that "stand your ground" seems to say you can shoot almost anyone you don't like and claim "self defense"?

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 08:05 PM

The "Stand Your Ground" law is the reason that Zimmerman is not under arrest. When he says "Self defense!" and the the other key witness is dead... not much can be done. (At least, that's the way it seems to play out.) Hope that the expanding body of evidence and the investigation of civil issues will bring some semblance of justice to the situation.

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 07:25 PM

Sounds like Florida has a 007 law - license to kill.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 06:24 PM

Like I said...........and thank you Becky!


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 06:19 PM

Five years since Florida enacted "stand-your-ground" law, justifiable homicides are up (Tampa Bay Times, October 17, 2010)

(excerpted)

That's because of Florida Statute 776.013(3), which took effect five years ago this month. The old law gave you the right to protect yourself with deadly force inside your home. The 2005 law gives you the right to protect yourself in a park, outside a Chili's, on a highway — just about anywhere.

You need only to "reasonably believe" that pulling the trigger or plunging the knife or swinging the bat is necessary to stop the other person from hurting you.

Reports of justifiable homicides tripled after the law went into effect, according to the Florida Department of Law Enforcement. Last year, twice a week, on average, someone's killing was considered warranted.

The self-defense law — known as "stand your ground" — has been invoked in at least 93 cases with 65 deaths, a St. Petersburg Times review found.

In the majority of the cases, the person's use of force was excused by prosecutors and the courts.

From the article (data assembled from reports in major newspapers):

Reports of justifiable homicides in Florida have spiked.

For the first half of this decade, the state counted an average of 34 justifiable homicides a year, as few as 31 and as many as 43.

That continued in 2006, the law's first full year.

But the next three years brought these numbers:

2007: 102.

2008: 93.

2009: 105.

The first six months of 2010: 44.

---

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 06:08 PM

AP story in the Richmond Times-Dispatch:

The phone call that recorded Martin's final moments was disclosed as the U.S. Justice Department opened a federal civil rights probe into the Feb. 26 shooting and the local prosecutor convened a grand jury to investigate.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 06:00 PM

Both the FBI and the Justice department as well as several other agencies including a grand jury are now in action so we should see Zimmerman under arrest soon.

The Florida law is an overreach. Many other states have strong "backing away" laws which draw the lines far clearer. Quite a few people commented on the Florida law when it passed that it would lead to shootouts.........................It is a bad law and poorly written and even more poorly implemented.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 05:42 PM

Jeri's point is well-taken, and though it is all to easy to slip into 'causes' after such an incident, I have started a thread specifically for comments about guns and laws.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 05:35 PM

I thought I heard today that a federal investigation had started.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 03:51 PM

If you turkeys are gonna rehash the gun debate yet again, I wish you would start your own goddam thread and not cram it in this one about a murdered child. I know it's simpler, but... it's simpler.
------------

Stand Your Ground fathers: Trayvon Martin's killer should likely be arrested, doesn't deserve immunity

The fathers of Florida's controversial Stand Your Ground law implicated in the death of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin say the man who shot him to death probably should be arrested and doesn't deserve a self-defense claim of immunity.

Former state Sen. Durell Peaden and current state Rep. Dennis Baxley say the law they passed in 2005 was designed to protect citizens by giving them the right to "meet force with force."

Read more here: http://miamiherald.typepad.com/ ...

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: jacqui.c
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 03:30 PM

Troll alert

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 01:57 PM

The guy is not guilty of any crime otherwise he would have been arrested. Clearly this thug was in this area and up to no good.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 01:18 PM

If you had followed my posts for 10-12 years, you would see that I have suggested everything I can think of to get across the foolishness of the gun laws in this country.

I have suggested limiting the amount and type of ammunition that anyone can buy. I have recommended that the 2nd amendment be clarified to reflect the difference between 1789 and 2012...or totally rewritten.
I have suggested having extremely strict laws about who can carry a concealed weapon.... and much more.

But... I am a pragmatist who sees VERY clearly how the system works....and as I said, amending the Constitution requires agreement! People wanted to drink... so getting rid of prohibition was fairly easy. They also want to "keep & bear arms", so repealing or rewriting the 2nd amendment would NOT be easy. I repeat... the NRA spends millions keeping the status quo alive, and most legislators see offering any revision to the 2nd amendment as effectively ending their term in office....and right now, that is how it would be in most states. Maybe Oregon would go along...maybe not.

Even **IF** such legislation were passed and the amendment somehow ratified (I wouldn't hold my breath unless I looked good in blue) there are those many, many millions of guns still out there... and during the voting and ratifying process, there would be many more sold!
You see, many of these stalwart "defenders of Liberty" **believe** that any attempt to change the law or constitution is exactly what they have stockpiled guns to prepare for! They view the attempt as a governmental plot to control their lives! It makes no difference if they are deluded... they believe it...and they have guns!

(Note...guns are not like alcohol. Booze is gradually consumed and the process of getting more can be made 'harder'..(though as we found out during prohibition, not at all impossible)...whereas guns just sit there, not expiring and not being depleted by use.

As to being able to " ..control their citizens, more or less, by legislation."...is Syria able to? Even there, people are finding way to obtain arms to fight an obviously oppressive regime. In the USA, the arms are not only already in the hands of "the people", but there are so many ways to hide them in this huge area.

Many people here believe in the bumper sticker that says: "You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold, dead hands!"

Yes.. we SHOULD 'do something', but it will take many, many small steps...like, as I said, tobacco.

It is difficult for smaller countries with different forms of government to comprehend the different mindset here! Even if 53% would agree to ban guns, they would have no idea how to approach the 47%.☺

*I* will continue to write, argue & plead for sanity and revision of the system, but I get ONE vote....

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Lighter
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 12:36 PM

Please read carefully. As I said, the Second Amendment will not be repealed.

Too many people want guns. Many of them are outraged by even minimal gun control. No legislation calling for repeal of the Second Amendment will ever get through a Congressional committee. It will not even be proposed. Too many people want guns.

Too many people wanted booze, too. And they didn't mind if they made   mobsters rich to get it. That's the main reason Prohibition was repealed, and only a few years after it began. Prohibition wasn't part of the Bill of Rights.

I'm just explaining what's what. The breast-beaters would be more helpful if they'd propose a workable solution. Remember that stricter gun control has been a major issue in the U.S. for nearly half a century (and it has gotten a little stricter).

Stay tuned.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 12:36 PM

""I am sure you can rationalise it all most adequately to your own satisfactions, individually & severally.""

Yes! And you do that by conveniently forgetting that the right to bear arms in the Constitution is a limited right.

I do not (being a UK citizen) know the exact words, but I believe the gist of it is that you have a Constitutional right to bear arms against an opressive government.

As I read it, this does not include carrying rights for use, or defence, against fellow citizens.

The weasel word justifications by the NRA and Southern redneck gun nuts cannot possibly be taken seriously when weighed against the violent execution of a seventeen year old child carrying a bag of sweets, who was heading back from the local shop to his mother's house.

Who is looking after HIS rights?

From what has happened to date, NOBODY!...and especially not "Florida's Finest", the appointed law enforcers.

I should say that, in these circumstances, Trayvon Martin's parents might be argued to have a Constitutional right to take up arms against those authorities, and who could blame them if they did?

Let's hope the Feds do come down on Zimmerman like the wrath of God, and on the local police and DA also. I would wish they would be not just fired, but jailed, for not taking action.

The local authorities have opened the door for vigilantes to go out and kill black people with impunity. There must be something criminal in that.

Gandhi was right!

""American civilisation would be a good idea!"

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 11:53 AM

I'm agreeing with MtheGM again.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: bobad
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 10:35 AM

Packing a Gun Makes You Think Everyone Else Is Too

There are plenty of reasons not to run round wielding a gun, but here's a new one; holding one makes you think that other people are holding guns, too. And that is not a desirable kind of paranoia to find in someone wielding a weapon.

A study conducted a Notre Dame University found that holding a gun shifts cognitive bias, making a person holding one far more likely to assume that other people are also holding one.

Gizmodo