BS: Killed for being black? Florida today

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 10:02 AM

First, bad as this has been so far, the Justice Department will investigate this as a hate crime as it meets the actual requiement to do so.

Florida has taken a law used in 25 or so other states to protect pweople who use deadly force when they are backing away from the situation which has placed them in harm's way.......true self defense. Florida went nut which they so often do and wrote their law allowing a person to stand their ground when in harm's way which makes no sense and allows vigilanteism to take over. Hopefully this will bring down that dumbass law.

The mayor, police chief, and others will be meeting with the Justice department and this case will turn in a different direction. The girlfriend is encouraging news but without some solid statement, the local police are pretty screwed here thanks to this stupid law.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 09:11 AM

Yes, Lighter, I know all that. We all know all that. But amendments to the Constitution can be repealed [Prohibition!]. And you all spend all your time breast-beating and doing nothing about it. I am sure you can rationalise it all most adequately to your own satisfactions, individually & severally. It just seems a little bit contemptible & pathetic (not to say comic), all this agonising, to most of here in the rest of the world.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Lighter
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 09:03 AM

I've come to this late, so I apologize if I'm repeating anything.

MtheGM, the Second Amendment to the Constitution guarantees the right to bear arms. There are some people who claim that even the legal requirement for a *license* to own a gun is unconstitutional.

If that amendment were somehow repealed or modified (which, I guarantee you, will not happen, for a number of reasons), there would then be the sticky problem of removing literally tens of millions of privately owned firearms, many of them unregistered and illegal, from the reluctant hands of their owners. (Honesty compels me to add that the overwhelming majority of gun-owners are rational, law-abiding people who never shoot anyone. And the slogan is unfortunately true: if guns are outlawed, the outlaws will still have plenty.)

Whatever the other facts of the present case may be, Zimmerman appears to have been licensed to carry a pistol. That doesn't give him the right to use it whenever he feels like it, but all I'm talking about is gun policy.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: SINSULL
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 08:31 AM

The Feds have stepped in.
Meantime, the young man's girlfriend has spoken with a lawyer. She was on the phone with him during the chase and shooting. Looking worse and worse for Mr. Zimmerman.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 01:46 AM

Never mind King Canute [to whom history has given the wrong footnote] or Don Quixote, Bill D. Other countries can control their citizens, more or less, by legislation. You would obviously start by criminalising the carrying of unauthorised weapons [making authorisation difficult to get, not near-automatic] & work on from there with some determined law-enforcement. It would take time & effort to take effect; but you all over there, even those who are opposed to the automatic right to bear arms, seem to be too scared or too reluctant to try ~~ the point of my previous post. All you are doing at the moment, every time an incident like this demonstrates the absolute necessity of doing something of the sort, is flapping your hands helplessly and saying "Oh dear!" Just look back, Bill, at the helpless tone of that first post of yours to which I replied, to see what I mean.

Other countries can do it. So what is wrong with you guys? Thought you were supposed to be the leaders of the world or something.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: michaelr
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 01:17 AM

Janie -- amen, kudos and thank you, especially for that last paragraph. I shall save your post in my "commentary" folder for future reference.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Janie
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 12:32 AM

As someone noted above, the Florida "stand your ground" law may mean it is not possible to bring criminal prosecution against Zimmerman, but like someone else said, I think it likely the Feds will step in, and like yet some else said, there will likely be grounds for a civil lawsuit.

None of which will bring this young boy back to life.

I don't question that Zimmerman perceived himself and his neighborhood to be threatened. Unfortunately, laws such as Florida's "stand your ground" laws do not hold people accountable for how realistic or reasonable their perceptions may be. I hope a way is found for Zimmerman to be held socially accountable.

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that racism is at work here, both individual and institutional. I suggest that all of us are racist or tribalist to a greater or lesser degree. We are each accountable, however, for understanding that about ourselves. We are each capable, and therefore accountable, for recognizing the human propensity for stereotyping and to take that into account as we examine our own internal processes. We are each capable, and therefore accountable, for examining our internal processes, assumptions and cognitive distortions.

There are people here I really respect who are insistent on the right to bear arms. I understand we psychologically built differently.   While I share many values with some of these people. I do not see, however, how rampant gun ownership and personal "rights" around bearing arms, especially concealed weapons, trumps the greater safety to our modern society to reducing the number the number of guns in the hands of private citizens. You may feel safer knowing you have a pistol in your belt, glovebox or bedside table. I don't feel safer for you having that gun.

In my 60 years of life I have been mugged once, robbed at gunpoint once on a city street, experienced a home invasion, had people attempt to break-in three times while I was at home, experienced one break-in that included an attempted sexual assualt, and had a crazy boyfriend drive through three counties with a rifle pointed at my head in the front seat of a Ford F250. For a few brief years while living in the country I owned a .22 rifle. I shot one groundhog ravaging my garden with it, and one deer just to see if I was capable of killing another animal for meat. Regarding groundhogs, I discovered box traps. I have not needed, in my life, to kill game to eat. I know that I can if I have to. I also know that meat doesn't appeal so much when I take the life, or participate in the skinning, gutting and butchering of life - whether I shoot the game, or catch it in a box trap and kill it by other means. I especially know that in terms of personal safety, personal possession of a gun would have been of little value in any of the human agressor situations I have dealt with,and quite likely would have increased the danger of the situation. I can certainly conceive of a situation where me having gun could save either my own life or the lives of others. But my own assessment is that when I balance the risks to myself vs. the documented risks to the society in which I live, I am better off without a gun, and even more importantly, my society is better off and safer without rampant gun ownership in the 20th and 21st century.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 10:31 PM

Stand your ground-make an orphan

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 10:02 PM

"Then again most of them have a drinking age of 18"

I do not think that is the case. I was in Louisiana when I heard that They were the last to make it 21. The Feds blackmailed them into it with Highway funding,

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 09:43 PM

Please do, olddude...by the way, do you think that the British would have thought Washington and Jefferson would fit into the category of being 'criminals'?...or that Washington and Jefferson would have considered themselves 'criminals'?
Just wondering...

Oh, and by the way, Warmest Regards to You!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Greg B
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 09:42 PM

I don't have a NY permit. Nor NJ, where I formerly lived. But our Bucks County Sheriff is apparently a "well-ordered militia" believer and, along with most PA sheriffs, gets the whole process done in less than an hour. I don't intend to parade about with a side-arm; I just don't want to get grief for having my varmint-gun in the back seat.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 09:39 PM

Greg
   since you have a new york state carry permit, it will be just a formality in PA, make a copy of your permit before applying they will issue one no problem at all since NY is so tough to get one. I have both

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Greg B
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 09:35 PM

That reminds me. I have to pop 'round the County Courthouse in town and fill out my form for a Pennsylvania LTC (License to Carry), a pro-forma process that will cover me if I should happen to forget to put my .22 rifle "varmint gun" into its case on the way to and from the barn, but also permits me to carry in the open or concealed, a hand-gun.

I'm a bleeding-heart liberal, but I also realize that disarming everyone but the scofflaw nut-jobs makes nobody safer.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 09:30 PM

Sanity I believe in the 2nd Amendment ... but even Thomas Jefferson said that criminals should not possess guns .. I will find the exact quote. The problem with the gun shows is no background check .. none cash and carry

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 09:20 PM

""In any case he should not have been murdered for walking down the street and guest Bluesman is still an asshole because he is assuming that he was doing something illegal and deserved to be killed.""

I couldn't agree more.

Strange, when I posted an almost identical assessment of Bluesman following his highly offensive comment, some bright spark saw fit to delete it.

Don T.

--wasn't deleted, Don. It didn't take. Use your "back" button to save the text and try again, if you're not sure it's going to work. --mudelf

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 09:18 PM

So, let me ask you....would you trust those who run guns (fast and furious) to drug cartels to restrict our guns???...How about knocking off THEIR bullshit!

The biggest abusers of the gun laws, and abusers of guns is not the 'people' but the government....both sides!

It's OK to circumnavigate the Constitution, and invade countries(with guns)..so I guess they feel entitled to circumnavigate the Constitution on a host of other issues as well!...as long as they can sell it to you!
If the Republicans do it....its 'national security'..if the Democrats do it...its pandering to a new group they decide to elevate to 'victim-hood'...for the sake of justifying just another bit of nonsensical emotionalizing of legitimizing corruption!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: olddude
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 08:35 PM

That guy was on the cell phone, he was ordered by the police to not leave his vehicle. Instead he confronts the kid and kills him and claims the Florida "stand your ground law" that says if you are in fear of your life deadly force is ok ... NUTS ... in NYS he would have been immediately arrested for murder since the law requires you to avoid the situation first and foremost. They allow some of these states to let anyone carry weapons. Then again most of them have a drinking age of 18 or so also (don't know about Florida). There is no wonder why most of the really nasty gangs are in that state. Texas is just as bad, they have gun shows 1 mile from the Mexican border so we can really arm all the drug gangs properly and they walk back over to Mexico unchecked... when is enough enough. It will take a federal firearms act to put the leash on this stuff

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: olddude
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 08:22 PM

I will explain it again, it is not guns, A federal standard of conceal carry would fix it .. that and getting rid of the fckin gun shows

they pass law after law and yet still allow anyone to walk into a gun show plop down cash and walk out with anything ... no bground check required. A state like Florida, if you can breathe you can get a CCP

nuts

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: bobad
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 06:44 PM

"It would seem likely, as the racially charged shooting has cast a spotlight on Florida's so-called "Stand Your Ground" law, which was passed under then-Governor Jeb Bush in 2005 and allows the use of guns or other deadly force as a means of self-defense in public places without first trying to back off from a confrontation."

Read more: http://globalgrind.com/node/828476#ixzz1pbb4zWPh

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 06:35 PM

MOST of this gated community is white... the few minorities are the exception, so a young black kid gets 'profiled' as 'suspicious'....even if he was only walking.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: bobad
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 06:29 PM

"17-year-old Trayvon Martin was shot and killed by a Neighborhood Watch captain inside his own gated Orlando, Florida community where he was living with his father, stepmother and little brother."

Global Grind

From the same site:

"Trayvon was shot and killed by George Zimmerman as he was walking through a gated neighborhood while visiting family in Sanford, FL, which is about 20 miles north of Orlando."

So there appears to be some confusion as to whether he was living there or just visiting. In any case he should not have been murdered for walking down the street and guest Bluesman is still an asshole because he is assuming that he was doing something illegal and deserved to be killed.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 06:13 PM

"...your government can't govern ~~ or is too scared to try?"

Now, Michael...YOU are clever enough to intuit the answer to that! Does "tilting at windmills" or King Canute sweeping back the waves explain it?

For the 1st 200 years, this was a frontier society with them impudent Injuns and wild animals...and the occasional British regiment... to cope with. EVERYONE had a gun....and in Appalachia and in the western mountains, hunting was common for many years after the country was 'pacified'. And then there was this awkward bit in the 2nd Amendment that 'seems' to allow anyone to "keep & bear arms".

So... with that kind of history, how would YOU go about banning...or even severely restricting... guns- especially with the NRA buying lobbyists & legislators? Do you think ANY decent president could be elected if he came out against gun ownership?

If *I* had a magic button, every weapon in private hands would suddenly be 'disabled' and would require individual actions by authority to re-enable any that seemed relevant.....but I think magic buttons are still in Beta mode.

There will have to be some slow, careful steps to limit gun ownership in any meaningful ways...much like we are dealing with tobacco. In the meantime, idiots like this vigilante will keep doing what they are doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 05:38 PM

According to at least one report I looked at, he and his parents were visiting, not resident, in the gated community. At any rate, he was returning from a convenience store to the house where his parents were.

If you're going to debate about how legislation plays in this case you could go with the guns-no guns debate, but a more subtle (and appropriate in the U.S. context) framing might be to look at it in terms of self-defense laws.

The tragedy that this event (and Bluesman's statements!) exemplifies is that most parents of young black men in this country live with the fear of their sons falling under suspicion simply for being young and black.

Also, as James Fallows says, "... this case is obviously about race, and is important on those grounds. Race relations are after all the original and ongoing tension in U.S. history. But it is also about self-government, rule of law, equality before the law, accountability of power, and every other value that we contend is integral to the American ideal ... ."

Here's more info --

NY Times news report: Justice Department investigation is sought in Florida teenager's shooting death

Charles Blow in the NY Times: The curious case of Trayvon Martin


Ta-Nehisi Coates of the Atlantic is following the story closely and has included links to the above as well as other reports.

His posts thus far (in chronological order from oldest to newest):

Forida's self-defense laws and the killing of Trayvon Martin

Stand-your-ground and Trayvon Martin

More on the killing of Trayvon Martin

Trayvon Martin cont.

Florida's ubiquitous castle

The town where Trayvon Martin was killed

The killing of Trayvon Martin - 911 tapes released

On the police investigating the killing of Trayvon Martin

Sanford's police chief is the real victim of racism

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: pdq
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 05:31 PM

...from BlackPlanet:

"Trayvon Martin's life ended last month during the NBA All-Star Weekend. His brisk walk to a convenience store to buy candy for his 13-year-old brother turned into a confrontation with the armed captain. Martin, who lived in Miami, was visiting his father and step-mother in the gated Retreat town homes at Twin Lakes in Sanford, some 20 miles north of Orlando."

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 05:09 PM

Looks like George was defending himself or the area he looks after. No crime as far as I can see, clearly the law agrees with this as George hasn't been charged with anything.

Clearly you haven't read the account, "Bluesman." A 17-year-old boy with a bag of Skittles (candy) is shot by a super-vigilant self-appointed security patrol who chased him down after the boy fled the scary white guy with the gun. Too many calls to 911 gave an account of the boy being pursued and attacked. Bernhard Goetz was another self-appointed vigilante, and even thought it is clear that the four young men he shot were trying to mug him, he was breaking the law by carrying the gun and shooting them. There is no indication that this boy was doing anything but travelling along a city sidewalk. And clearly the law is accustomed to giving white law-breakers a pass. If I were you, I wouldn't place any bets on this guy getting away without an indictment.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: bobad
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 05:03 PM

"This 17 year old, made an illegal entry into a gated community. Clearly there was no good intent in his head."

He lived in the "gated community" asshole. He was on his way home from a seven-eleven.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 04:37 PM

This 17 year old, made an illegal entry into a gated community. Clearly there was no good intent in his head.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 03:45 PM

There were no shootings here in the last month, in a town where it is estimated that, on average, there are four firearms per household...regardless of race. Obviously we are below average and will have to start shooting to catch up.

"Homicide" is the killing of someone. It is NOT the same as manslaughter or murder. If you commit homicide you should be taken into custody and the matter thoroughly investigated. Then, if appropriate, charges should be brought. It doesn't matter if you use your bare hands, a knife, a firearm, a grenade, a landmine, a nuclear weapon -- you killed someone and thereby committed homicide. It is not for me or you to decide if the killing was "justifiable" -- hopefully that's for the courts to decide.

Based on what I know about it I see no reason for the killing in this case. I would also ask if deadly force was necessary -- why wasn't the kid simply asked what was going on?

Mind you, I very much dislike "gated communities" -- to my mind their for the paranoid and/or those who feel that they shouldn't have to associate with the riff-raff commoners. They have a place as an independent living facility for elderly folks (my MIL lives in one with about [literally] 3,000 others), but for most of us -- nah. They will only slow down first responders and do create a sense that "Hey, they must have money!" in the minds of the bad guy, which makes them more tempting targets.

But I'm outa here, for I don't see this thread going anywhere useful.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 03:19 PM

So what you are telling us, Bill D, is that your government can't govern ~~ or is too scared to try?

Have I got that right?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 03:18 PM

P.S. : I'm so farkin proud to see how far we've come as a country since 1963 & Hattie Carroll that I could just shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 03:16 PM

WHY was the 17 year old "kid" in a gated community in the first place. It's gated for a reason.

Damn Right! Its gated to keep them goddam ni**ers out!

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 02:35 PM

Lizzie asked yesterday: "WTF does the USA not ban guns???"

Umm... because there are several hundred million guns already out there? And because many paranoid owners have stashed them away, ready to start a civil war if anyone tries to ban them?

They rationalize that they NEED guns in case their 'rights' are violated. In the meantime, the guns get used-- there are FAR too many guns that are FAR too easy to get.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 02:11 PM

I had a wonderful student when I was a professor, He was a great kid with a great family. In fact he still calls me his other dad on father's day. Black student. One year he went to Florida on spring break. An eighty something year old woman who can't see, can't hear had a ton of traffic violations ran a red light and he T Boned her and totaled his car. Guess who the police arrested ... yup not the 80 year old local. Thank God no one was hurt but even the witnesses said she never stopped for the red light and he still got fined for hitting her car. Nothing f'in changes does it

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 02:01 PM

It that same state that a guy shot a Japanese exchange student for knocking on his door to ask directions a few years ago ... Insanity is running faster than Niagara Falls everywhere anymore. Shit if were not a gun the guy would have run him over with a car .. Nuts are nuts and useless police officers that do nothing are just that, useless. Maybe the Feds will step in, they have before

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 01:39 PM

I don't think we can blame the location.

People with power can get away with crimes that those without are punished for. Whether the power is racial, political, wealth or something else, it give them license they SHOULD NOT HAVE.

There are witnesses, and there will be forensic evidence. Zimmerman should be arrested and prosecuted. I'm just hoping the delay involves lining up ducks... hoping.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 12:22 PM

They have to charge the guy--he committed homicide. It doesn't matter what the kid did, assuming he did anything at all, you CANNOT shoot an unarmed person and claim self-defense. By law, that is a homicide and you WILL be charged.

Well, that's how it is up here in the North. Down South. where I thankfully no longer live, you can kill anybody you want as long as you're a good ol' boy and anyone who says I'm full of shit is full of shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 10:57 AM

This page at the Huffington post has recordings of 911 calls.

I didn't listen to all of them. The third one down was quite enough for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 10:21 AM

WHY was the 17 year old "kid" in a gated community in the first place. It's gated for a reason.

George called the police and reported the intruder, clearly something happened after that causing him to unholster his weapon.

Looks like George was defending himself or the area he looks after. No crime as far as I can see, clearly the law agrees with this as George hasn't been charged with anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: saulgoldie
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 10:18 AM

Yes, Rap, "We All Bleed Red" (recent song on the country station)

It is tragic, of course that this happened. But I think this will focus the country's attention on the not-so-subtle racism that is behind so much of the Republican campaign and law-making activity of the day, just as the Limbaugh/slut thing has focused attention on the Repub "war on women."

I think their true colors are showing for everyone to see and for them to be very embarrassed about. This cannot anymore be covered with code words. It is there plain to see. Given their recent rigidity, I doubt if they will walk any of it back, either. Good for them.

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 10:16 AM

One guy had a gun...

The other didn't and was on his way to visit a neighbor of the first guy..

Guess who is dead???

But this entire episode is a sad commentary on a society obsessed with fear, hate and mis-understanding... And guess who is spending billion$$$ to keep it that way... There is no accident here... This will happen over and over until until we get back to a society that actually goes beyond "talking the talk" about diversity and appreciating each others cultural differences and walks away from the tools being used on us everyday by the masters of division...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 10:02 AM

This happens in every single country in the world. The difference between this and Rwanda, Germany, Kosovo, Ireland, Soviet Union, etc. is one of scale only.

A rabbi and three children were gunned down in Toulouse today by a drive-by shooting from a motorcycle. It was not the first such.

I learned long ago that inside we're all red.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Penny S.
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 06:52 AM

Sounds like something not so far from home in terms of aftermath.


Lawrence case police corruption

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 06:41 AM

With enough pressure, the Justice dept. will step in.

Why was this nut case allowed to be on the street with a weapon anyway? His history should help put him away.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Leadfingers
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 06:28 AM

I was expecting someone to have made the connection between Zimmmerman , and Zantsinger earlier in the thread ! Doi we have another erstwhile Bob Dylan to write the song ? The Lonesome Death of Trayvon Martin ?

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 07:14 PM

1. A neighborhood watch program here in the "Wild West" consists of volunteers driving around in marked ex-police cars (and they are OLD!), checking your house when you're out of town.

2. The neighbors also keep an eye on each other -- carrying cell phones. Anyone found with a firearm is kicked off the patrol -- these aren't cops. A problem is called in and a regular officer dispatched.

3. It is strongly suggested that Watchers use a camera (cell phone or otherwise) to document an incident. This type of "shooting" is fully justified.

4. This a very ethnically diverse community, containing folks of Greek, Irish, African, Polynesian, Japanese, Thai, Chinese, German, Hispanic, English, Maori, and other descents. They are judged not on their ethnicity but on their abilities -- and yes, there are far more than a few inter-racial couples here. No, it's not perfect but it's a helluva lot better than I've seen in London, Paris, Bordeaux, DC, LA, Boston, Chicago, or Dublin (to name a few).

But then, like I say, this is The Wild West (we have rodeos, Indians, and everything). The land where Nate Love discovered bulldogging and one-third of the Top Hands were Black or Indian, not White. The country where nearly every town, from Dodge City to Denver, banned the carrying of firearms.

Ah, well.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 03:56 PM

I find the alleged absence of evidence hard to credit - where did the vigilante's gun go and the bullets in the youth?

The USA needs severely to take stock of who uses guns to kill more people? Criminals (and vigilantes and "people who are only defending themselves" (from a boy running away down a public road) or those genuinely defending themselves on their own property or from an advancing treat (oh, and genuine public servant law officers)?

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 03:29 PM

In England, our Neighbourhood Watch guys and gals carry pens, badges, window stickers and smiles...

WTF does the USA not ban guns???

I find it deeply disturbing that folks wander round with guns..it's madness...total madness.

WHY would a neighbourhood watch person be allowed to carry a gun?

Yeesh!

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Lizzie
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 03:22 PM

>>>"In an ideal and just society Zummerman in future would be banned from carrying assembled and loaded fire arms beyond his own property. I don't think that will happen in south Florida."<<<

Huh?????

In my kind of 'ideal society' he'd be banged up for the next 25 years for murder and racism and banned from EVER carrying ANY weapon again, being told that if he did so he'd be banged up for the next 25 years to follow...

Or...better still, I'd just hand him over to this young lad's parents and let them deal out the justice!

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 02:28 PM

I heard that local law said they did not have enough evidence due to the lack of evidence. But it is pretty clear that the incident did not happen on Zimmerman's property, so the "self defense" claim is pretty bogus.

My guess is that there are no criminal charges but that someone sues on behalf of the family and gets a large judgement for wrongful death. But since Zimmerman is only 28 and aspires to be a cop, there won't be much money to go after.

In an ideal and just society Zummerman in future would be banned from carrying assembled and loaded fire arms beyond his own property. I don't think that will happen in south Florida.


Bill,

In my experience, there is certainly not more racism in the South than the North. I travel all over the South. It is just not that apparent. In the North, in Ohio, when I lived there, and in the Northeast when I have visited. I saw many more examples of racism.

Where you live, which is more South than North, MD and VA were both slave states at the time of the civil war, I have also seen few signs of racism.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 02:14 PM

Some things ain't changed in sixty years. Old saw from back then: Two men of colour were struck by a town mayor (who was White) while he was out for a drive. One fellow crashed through the windshield and the other flew 65' onto the grassy side of the road. When the police arrived, they arrested one for breaking and entering and the other for leaving the scene of an accident.