Thread Proliferation Control

Subject: RE: Thread Proliferation Control
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 01:49 PM

In life you have to make choices. It is not possibly to have your cake and eat it. It is not possible to be 'one of the lads' if you also wish to exert power and pass your personal judgement upon them.

Can those with the power, make their choice please?

To make their personal comments and express their opinions in the threads with all of us, or to place little coloured personal comments, after taking action or when passing judgement upon us.

Perhaps possibly the very best choice they can make is to do neither but to go away and leave the rest of us to it?

Subject: RE: Thread Proliferation Control
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 01:43 PM

You know what, JR WAMSO Matriot GUEST karen, samantha, etc? Your protestations would have some credibility if you weren't posting under aliases all over the place and acting like you are everything from a man to a Russian having problems with English, on and on. Of course you want Joe to turn over the reins. That is because he is getting to you and he is on the right track. Your posting above is another attempt to all of a sudden seem "the voice of reason who just cares about The Mudcat" while simultaneously posting destructive phoney crap on other threads.

I find it to be the ultimate irony that the reason you can hold Joe, and the rest of the people who volunteer time and money to keep this place in existence, is because we identify ourselves. I wonder how it would be if I exposed your phoney identity crap anonymously? My guess is that you would cry and complain about not knowing who your accuser was.

I could care less about your anonymity. Your motives are what trouble me. Your motives are to seek attention, be destructive, and to manipulate nice folks. It is the latter of these that is most troubling. Because these folks want to see the best in people, and are gentle, and use reason, you can take advantage of their decent nature. I have been fighting folks who do this shit my entire life. They are bullies, and you are a bullie. Your game is disgusting. I believe very strongly that Joe, Max and Jeff should follow your advice so you can call yourself a martyr in other places. They won't, because they are wise enough not to play your game. But know this. I would. And Mudcat would be better off for it.

Mick

Subject: RE: Thread Proliferation Control
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 12:24 PM

For chrissake Joe, ban me, but don't continue to manipulate, punish, and poison the forum with this vendetta.

It is becoming increasingly obvious to at least some of your supporters (as it has been for some time to all of your detractors) that you, Jeri, catspaw, katlaughing, and Big Mick (the clones who have personally identified themselves, even though you said their identities would not be revealed) are on the absolute wrong track with this "anti-guest pogrom" as Lepus Rex so aptly described it.
Yet, your little group keeps hunkered down in the bunkers, deluding yourselves into believing that disrupting and censoring the forum is a good way to get back at me.

This isn't high school Joe. You and the clones look like idiots, and are sewing some serious seeds of discontent that really can destroy the forum if you continue down this road of "controlling" posters, posts, and threads, and wielding power because you can.

All kinds of people have said "what problem"? Your justifications sound like the Bush administration's justifications for going to war against Saddam. Some of us know better. We know that such an amorphous campaign gets undertaken when there are personal grudge matches involved. If you are going to do the job of forum moderator well, you can't allow your personal feelings about posters, no matter how much you dislike their posting habits, or what they've said to you and your friends, to make you so reactionary and unbalanced.

And to be messing with the two most important musically related political discussions--PEL and war with Iraq--in the forum in recent years is just inexcusable. People are using this place as a means of political organizing, it is true. But it is political organizing being done by politically oriented folk musicians. You can't separate the two, and declare that the two subjects your forum participants feel the most passionate about, are going to be "limited" because you think those people post too prolifically.

So what if they are posting prolifically? It is what has made this site not only enjoyable, but an important space for discussion and debate in the online folk and blues music community. This is one of the only places online where folk and blues musicians can come to discuss these crucially important issues. Remember Joe, these issues are being discussed here, because these are the issues that matter deeply to a core group of politically oriented folk and blues musicians. You should be taking great pride in the fact that they have chosen this forum to engage in their discussions and debates. Not ostracize and bully and demean them for it.

If you and the clones don't get that, then you really do need to step aside, and turn the reigns over to people who aren't so invested in their petty personal shit as you guys seem to be, who can moderate the forum with an open hand, rather than a closed fist.

Subject: RE: Thread Proliferation Control
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 11:41 AM

Well, actually, I'm retired and my wife works. So while my wife is working, I have plenty of time to be here and bask in your chutzpah, O Nameless One.
Or give you a hard time, one of the two.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Thread Proliferation Control
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 10:07 AM

Joe should listen to his friends. I thought he was going to get a life when he got married? Max did it, and Joe could do it too if he got over his control and power issues here. And stopped listening to his whispering clones giving him "advice".

Subject: RE: Thread Proliferation Control
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 04:36 AM

Oh, dear, oh
Joe Offer's got no courage in him!    (insert silly smiley face thing here)

Come on, Joe, you have to stop "figuring" so much. You see, I think that's part of the problem---"they"'ve got to you. So what if they mistakenly accuse you of blatantly censoring my post? That's their problem, not yours. Unless you need a recommendation from Mudcat members to get into college...which somehow I doubt. Relax! The 'Cat will be what it will be, and will become what it will become, and if you try to push it, and keep worrying about whether people will like you, you'll just wear yourself out.

I like you. Lots of people like you. And some people don't. BFD. You've been doing a good job...but I think that by trying to "keep the Forum from degenerating" you're making your job much harder than it has to be. The Forum won't degenerate: too many people appreciate it too much. And even if it does...we'll still keep making music, and we'll find some way to connect. It's too much fun not to.

Aloha (and I mean that sincerely),
Mark

Subject: RE: Thread Proliferation Control
From: Art Thieme
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 11:44 PM

Joe, I'm still with ya.

Art

Subject: RE: Thread Proliferation Control
From: Blackcatter
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 10:18 PM

ahhhhh

After a long day, I check in at my favorite site and read the continuing saga of this thread - one of the funniest around here for a long time.

First of all, I love that it took many posts over a couple days for the "guest" - and to me all guests are one person, until I'm proven wrong - to notice it and open their kind heart to share their opinions (too often NOT shared) with the rest of us.

Secondly, I love the fact that people think that each time Joe starts a thread like this, or says something like this in a thread, he his surprised that people innundate the Mudcat with complaints

Thridly, I still don't understand why all those who hate this place so much, don't just leave?

Funny, funny, funny

Oh - if and when we go to war - I sincerely hope that everyone who is in favor of it will join the army and put their life where their comments are. My guess that won't happen anymore than Lee Greenwood didn't enlist even though he fervently wished to do just that in that tripe-ridden song he so ably sang a decade ago.

Subject: RE: Thread Proliferation Control
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 09:17 PM

Dreaded Guest, I agree with you. Well, not everything. Still, unlike many people here, I think that much of what you've been saying has validity. However, I'm getting very tired of listening to you say it. It seems to me that you're alienating many more people than you're convincing. Maybe you could find a more productive method. (I don't have any good answers, just like I didn't back in the Christic Institute days. If I think of something, I'll try to let you know.)

Now, then. I was happy with what Joe was doing, until he added an editorial comment to one of my posts that squashed a fairly clever joke (even suckered 'Spaw!). But I can live with that. I think he did that because he was feeling defensive about the reaction to what he's been doing. But he can probably live with that. In my view, this is all a tempest in a teapot. I just counted 58 threads on the Forum main page that relate to music and would appear to have general interest. That's plenty for me. I stopped reading the PEL posts months ago, and I dearly miss the Drumcree threads (seems like I killed one of them with what I thought was another pretty clever joke...oh,well).

I like the forum the way it is, and I have liked it for 4 years, even through its "problems." It was a welcome addition to my life at a time when I was under extreme stress and isolated from friends and music, and I still enjoy it even as my life has improved. I'm with Shambles on this one (nice to see you here again, Sham). My vote is for Joe to spend more time with his wonderful new wife and family and less time worrying about how many threads there are.

Aloha,
Mark

---

It WAS a clever joke, Mark. I just figured there were too many touchy people around here who wouldn't get it; and then I'd be in trouble again, mistakenly accused of blatantly censoring your post.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Thread Proliferation Control
From: GUEST,The Dreaded Guest
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 07:59 PM

Yes, Lepus Rex, it IS a lot of time investment to review the same fundamentals over and over and over, and I've pretty much had my fill of it. I made my points repeatedly here just like I'm currently doing on another site...a conservative site. The time I've spent between the two could have been used to blast through a hundred other forums and spread my core message, but some groups DO cry out for a little extra education. Mudcatters aren't as mule-headed as the group of Nazis I'm also arguing with at the moment, but resistance to change seems to be a common denominator.

Whether you folks know it or not, we are at war. Not with the people who have 'terrorist' superimposed over their faces on your television, but with the people who control the television programming. Dig around through my posts marked 'The Dreaded Guest' or 'The Hated Guest' and I'll lecture you ad nauseum on the topic. The govts of the world which have strong central banks are controlled by organized crime, and that criminal organization is bent on dominating the world. And we stand in their way...some with more resistance than others.

I'll leave you with a good 'conspiracy theory'.

I haven't mentioned this here, but Saudi Arabia is running out of oil. And they are terrified. They've kissed the ass of the U.S. for 55 years, and their neighbors hate them for it. The bin Ladens are rivals of the Saud family, and the bin Ladens are business partners with the Bushes. All indications are that after the U.S. has a quarter-million troops or more in Iraq, Iran will be the next target. Then into Saudi Arabia. Why do you think the CIA planted so many Saudis on the hijacked airliners? So the Saudis know how the Bushes treat their ex business partners (Noriega, Saddam Hussein), and they don't know whether to cash in their chips now or hope they're just mis-reading the Bushes. The Saudis could bankrupt America tomorrow if they withdrew their investments in this country, so maybe that's the way the Bushes plan to destroy our economy...threaten Saudi Arabia with invasion so they destroy our banking system.

But that's just a theory based on previous trends and indicators.

Anyway, I will now make a folder containing bookmarks to the threads I've posted on and come back from time to time as a NEWBIE and resurrect the old discussions. That'll allow me to just reassert my points with a click and a couple of sentences. Why do any more than that? Y'all have been cautioned and I've been exhausted.

I may come back tomorrow and post another 'conspiracy theory', but it's too sensitive to get into right now. Might cause undue distress, since it's too late to do anything about it. But it's a good one.

Subject: RE: Thread Proliferation Control
From: Ralphie
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 06:30 PM

With respect to all parties...Guests, Members, Joe, Clones (various), Trolls, Flamers, and Utter Bastards...This is not a fun thread anymore.
Will someone shut it down?   PLEASE!
Not meaning to offend, (But probably will)
Ralphie....and Yes, you can have my National Insurance Number if you like.

Subject: RE: Thread Proliferation Control
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 04:51 PM

Disregard it if you like, Joe. With slight adjustments, it's the opinion of others, as well. You're not saying that you're going to disregard the opinions of your, uh, subjects, are you? :)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: Thread Proliferation Control
From: GUEST,disgusted
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 04:46 PM

I want to avoid you, so why don't you drop dead? We'd all be better off!

Subject: RE: Thread Proliferation Control
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 02:55 PM

Well, Joe, it looks like your new policy isn't working. Not very popular, either. It's made more than just anonymous GUESTs feel uncomfortable/unwelcome. Told ya. (monkey-cock and all that) :)

Hey, Rick, what is your real name? :o

TDR, while I don't mind your theories, you're distracting from your point by listing them here.

---Lepus Rex

---

Thank you very much for your opinion, Mr. Rex. It will be disregarded.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Thread Proliferation Control
From: GUEST,The Dreaded Guest
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 02:33 PM

There is not a thing that's paranoid or psychotic about my last post, 'disgusted'. That's your fear speaking. You have been programmed to discount the unpleasant. Why did FEMA complete 3 million new fenced-in bed spaces in January? Why did Clinton AND Bush threaten to fire FBI field agents investigating the bin Ladens before Sept 11?

I'm curious to see how long I can long my posting here will be allowed. There's lots of talk about non-censorship, but there's also talk about grants for the site. All grants involve govt sponsorship (either through direct contributions or write-off status), so the govt WILL claim rights on this site if push comes to shove. So how far do the principles espoused by the 'clones' extend?

I expect the clones have gotten in a bit deeper with me than they planned, but that's what they get for physically trying to re-shape the message.

And my message is simple. The U.S. govt has been seized by organized crime. We are being terrorized daily by the people responsible for Sept 11 (the Bush Company's CIA), and America is being financially destroyed so it can be conquered. I could REALLY get into this stuff with charts and graphs and govt websites if you want, but then you might have to actually DO something to protect your family when the full realization of what's going on hits you.

And by the way, Free Will is a fact of life. No one is 'holding you hostage'. That's a hundred years of socialist programming speaking. You've been taught that someone else needs to take care of you because you don't have the ability, the skill, the backbone. Which is EXACTLY the way your overlords want you to be. You want everything 'fixed' for you, but the solution here is to just not fix your eyes on my postings. I use a consistent handle so you can avoid me, so what IS the problem?

Oh...I looked at the earlier post with all the links (M. Reed) and it is hilarious. That's one of the funniest things I've ever seen on the web. I think I'm a Jeckyll and Hyde, and I bet a lot of you recognized yourselves in it. Thanks 'GUEST' for posting that. Really, really cool.

Subject: RE: Thread Proliferation Control
From: *daylia*
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 02:22 PM

Disgusted, I don't like "paranoid psychosis" either, but I'm sure that our DG does not consider him/herself, or his/her opinions either paranoid or psychotic. C'est la vie!

However, the only one holding me 'hostage' to the opinions of others is myself, as long I choose to continue spending time and energy on it. Which I did, until I'd worked out my own way of dealing with it satisfactorily. Now it doesn't bother - or attract - me anymore (well, not much anyway). I think that when all's said and done, no-one can "do something about it" except oneself, for oneself.

But I do appreciate Joe's efforts at organizing the place via thread consolidation!

Just my 2 cents worth - daylia

Subject: RE: Thread Proliferation Control
From: GUEST,disgusted
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 01:56 PM

I resent being held hostage to this "Dreaded Guest"'s paranoid psychosis. Why doesn't someone do something about it? It has gone far enough!

Subject: RE: Thread Proliferation Control
From: GUEST,The Dreaded Guest
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 12:53 PM

My last post has been edited. It read better in the original. A lot of you feel free to criticize and call names but don't realize that's a two-way street.

Freedom of speech will cease to exist, Bill, if it's not used. Now. Use it now or you will never be able to again. Rumsfeld, Cheney, the Bushes and Clinton are sociopathic killers. Your television is their primary control tool. 50% of Americans have been taught to believe Saddam Hussein was behind Sept 11. 50% of Americans will be taught that Arab-Americans ASKED to be placed in concentration camps...'for their own safety'. Because of the news reports on the box. Then your group will be next.

Yesterday there were war gatherings locally, pro and con. The bit of news I saw contained a one-minute segment. Showed a bunch of people in suits holding American flags while one older man said 'we support our president and troops'. Next, the news showed the 'anti-war' group. Nothing but beards and incessant bongo music and butt-shaking. No flags, no red white and blue, no suits. And since none of them mentioned 'the troops', the implication was that the anti-war people are AGAINST the troops.

I refuse to believe America supports this war, but we're about to reach a quarter million troops out of country...fow what purpose? And what is in store that's so bad millions of new concentration camp beds have been built on American soil? There was never any real spending on Civil Defense when THAT was supposed to be a real problem, so why now, when there is a vague terrorist problem, do we see them stringing concertina wire in order to deal with it?

GWBush knew about and aided the 9-11 terrorists. So did Bill Clinton. And it was just the kick-off for the upcoming slaughter of Americans.

---

Sharp eye. Personal attacks are prohibited. If you cross the line, you get edited. If you want to attack me, that's OK (generally). I have thick skin. If you want to launch a personal attack attack any other individual, it's not.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Thread Proliferation Control
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 12:11 PM

Basically, though, the responsibility for the forum is shared by Max, Jeff, and Joe - and Joe does most of the moderation of the Forum.

My mistake. I am not well versed in who wears what titles behind the scenes, so I assumed that anyone who works behind the scenes and isn't Joe or Max, is a clone. I stand corrected.

So to further address what I said in my last post, I have not had any behind the scenes experiences with Jeri, so I don't really know what her strengths and weaknesses are. But I do know Jeff and Joe well enough to know some of their strengths and weaknesses.

I find that one area where Jeff particularly shines is his ability to handle difficult situations with compassion. I know that Jeff is a brilliant tech guy, but I think his people skills are a great asset to the Mudcat as well. I hope he gets the credit he deserves for that.

No, you wouldn't want hard-and-fast rules if you got them.

Perhaps you're right, Joe. Maybe hard and fast rules are a bad idea.

Subject: RE: Thread Proliferation Control
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 11:56 AM

Dear "GUEST KAREN": The last thing in the world I wanna do is make someone feel creepy, so please accept my apology. I absolutely assure you that I have no "inner Mudcat or Computer info", and even if I did, I have so little interest in that kind of thing, I'd quickly forget it.

Nope...a couple of times a GUEST really took over some interesting threads, where a civil discussion was going on.   They manipulated them in a way that made them very ugly, and changed their whole meaning. Their skills in that area are quite astounding. They even addressed ME several times by MY name, without offering me the same courtesy. THAT's why I decided to even things out a bit. Had they NOT used my name (in a negative way) I'd hardly have noticed. The sleuthing I did took a very short time, and used my own intuition far more than computer stuff.

Considering that I've been using my real name, my wife's, and our Toronto Ontario location since I joined the Mudcat (and was victim of a Flamer's 'name" stealing for a while) maybe I'm a tad more sensitive about this kind of thing than some.

The name "JR" DID come from some other discussion group (and I honestly can't remember which one....perhaps a British one) and the rest was easy....a really good writer is no problem to find.......if ya know HOW to read. I do.

But.....anyway Karen, I'm sorry if it made you feel 'creepy', I assure you there's nothing personal, and it was a response to an anonymous poster turning it personal with ME.

Cheers

Rick Fielding

P.S. Now let's talk about music!

Subject: RE: Thread Proliferation Control
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 10:55 AM

dreaded guest..freedom of speech means you can say it somewhere, not that you can say anything you please anywhere you please.

Write a book and publish it....start your own web blog....go shout from a soapbox in the park, just don't presume to use what is meant to be a shared forum among friends for your own personal podium. If you were a 'person' who traded songs, recipes, jokes and stories of you kids & cats, and also tossed out opinions on the world sometimes, you would be MUCH more tolerated, even if considered a bit weird for the tenor and breadth of your 'concerns'.

I sometimes host 'open sings' at my house...published in a newsletter, and open to anyone who wants to pop by...and at times we stand around and gossip and chat about the world, too! But if anyone came to those sessions, month after month, wearing a disguise, and did NOTHING but exhort us to pay attention to his latest political theory...and castigated us when we complained....well, I, being the host, would have thrown his butt out.

Max and Joe, being the hosts, have the right to do the same here...it is just more difficult, and THEY are more tolerant than I am.

This is just more wasted effort on my part, as you have shown that you simply do not care! You have an agenda, and you intend to keep being pushy and combative and twisting the arguement to make it sound as though YOU are the one who is being inconvenienced when an occasional excess is deleted or moved!

You don't get it...you don't WANT to get it...you want YOUR way in someone else's house, and that is patently offensive! You mentioned before that you had been banned from other forums in the past...I wonder why.....

I am trying to talk myself into just dropping out of this discussion and allowing Joe and Max, etc to deal with it as they will...maybe I will even succeed. *wry grin*

Subject: RE: Thread Proliferation Control
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 10:41 AM

Look at who started this thread. Look at who started the "Cut and Paste Prohibitions" thread. We do see the same people shit stirring this forum over and over and over ad nauseum. But who are the shit stirrers, really? Here is a nice story for your Sunday amusement, about an idyllic folk heaven called "Mudcat Cafe".

First this guy...

http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame79.html

Is sent forth by these folks...

http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame20.html

and a number of these, operating through the Mudcat PM shadow forum, who once the insult is passive agressively posted about member so and so, apologizes profusely...

http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame42.html

So The Beloved Admin starts a thread just like this one, which begins a reactionary chain of events among the hoi polloi members and guests, by lobbing one of these babies: a highly predictable forum explosive, triggered by terms used in the original post by Beloved Admin like "anonymous guest(s)" or "PEL" or "Iraq"...

http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame65.html

Why do they do it? Some say, "because they can". Others surmise they do it in order to maintain their grip on power at Mudcat, when feeling threatened by newcomers, or those who refuse to recognize their power and place in the Sacred Hierarchy. Whatever the motive of the moment, the game being played is Forum Divide and Conquer. It is a cinch for Beloved Admin, The Royals, and the Whisperers, because they can't lose, and the hoi polloi are, of course, powerless to stop them. Sort of like George Bush lording it over the rest of the world. So without lifting another typing finger, Beloved Admin and the Mudcat Royals are able to bring in the usual reinforcements to circle the wagons...

http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame38.html

http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame3.html

http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame35.html

Please note that most of the above are mui macho types (regardless of gender), and they all respond when they hear their leaders' Call to War on Enemy Guests. Some of them are DYING (for the good of their egos--oops! I mean forum) to fall on their swords so they can be seen as one of these...

http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame64.html

acting in high minded service to protect these poor, vulnerable Mudcat folk (genders interchangeable here)...

http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame27.html

http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame6.html

The ensuing battle often results in a number of highly respected Mudcat members taking this sort of a turn, when their absolute power ends up, well...many a Mudcatter has seen how folks like this end up...

http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame32.html


Once the battle reaches this fever pitch, finally, we see this...

http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame49.html

The Sacred Hierarchy, for a brief, shining moment, feels morally cleansed.

And then, as Art Thieme says, The Forum Moves On. Until the Special Ones again feel the need to cleanse themselves, renewing the process once again. And again. And happily, ever after.

Subject: RE: Thread Proliferation Control
From: belfast
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 09:17 AM

There are no less than three threads currently open on the subject of "Raglan Road". And this is a song that has been talked to death in previous threads. I'm totally in favour of some proliferation control.

Subject: RE: Thread Proliferation Control
From: GUEST,The Dreaded Guest
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 08:44 AM

God you people are whiners. ... Get a grip.

You gutless people cancel my threads, cancel posts like this, bitch because not everyone wants to discuss Woody Guthrie's last proctology report and absolutely wet yourselves when it comes to practicing freedom of speech. Gutless bunch of whiners for the most part who are too stupid to realize your 'liberal' ideology is going to get your ass fried in a concentration camp. I've been pointing out for over a year on lots of forums that GWBush is a mass-murdering serial killer, and I write my representatives about it and call in to talk shows about it and hand out tapes and literature about it and couldn't care less what any of you think about it. But you make it so much FUN to come here and lambast you that it's just hard to stay away.

I might have paid just one single visit to this place if Joe Offer or one of the 'drones' hadn't deleted my first thread. I checked in, saw how the place worked and posted my catch-all political diatribe painting the world as we now see it, but a censor decided to delete it. Gauntlet thrown down, so I resolved to BLUDGEON you folks with political themes. Rub your faces in it. Most of you are so liberal...well that's WHY you hate Bush. Because you're liberal. You have NO IDEA that you've been brainwashed into viewing the world through a phony left-right paradigm. Marx and Engels were COMMISSIONED 150 years ago by the royal families to create a new paradigm because labor was starting to figure out how the elites worked. So a new system was created and you still believe it's just the natural way of things. I tried to lay this out but one of 'the drones' deleted the entry and you people have had me pestering you ever since. THAT is the major problem with your censorship here. Leave well enough alone and don't piss people off and people like me will lose interest in your smug little o-zone.

Subject: RE: Thread Proliferation Control
From: winterchild
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 04:06 AM

Joe, given a difficult situation, you do the best you can, and you do good work.

I think lots of people are getting more upset than they need to, but what do I know, I'm an Aspie (see Apserger's thread).

I do know that I'd HATE it if fewer of all of these marvellous musicians hung around in MudCat. Definitely.

'nuf said

WinterChild

Subject: RE: Thread Proliferation Control
From: Blackcatter
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 01:27 AM

Once again, I tend to agree with Art, with the exception that I think that each of these treads is funny, funny, funny.

I've been here at Mudcat for over 4 years now and laugh everytime I see another thread about this stuff:

Mudcat is running downhill
The owners / managers are taking away rights,
"Guests" don't get any respect
There's a secret Clique
There's a not-so-secret Clique

Thank you all for amusing me. I'm off the the Guinness thread.

Mudcat Folks! (cause 'Mudcat Rocks!' doesn't seem to make a lot of sense . . . )

pax yall

Subject: RE: Thread Proliferation Control
From: Blackcatter
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 01:21 AM

guest karen:


As for your statement earlier: "Or is the problem that Mudcat is under new management without our being told?"

Do you honestly think you have a right to know if this is true or not? Do you honestly think that you have any rights on the Mudcat?

Also: You aren't paranoid, someone may be hunting you down. But not from the place you think . . . .

As for swapping "secret" information - check your doctor's office, your bank and your local DMV - look into how much of your private life they're SELLING to other companies. Run a spyware check on your computer - if you've downloaded music from the Internet, you might have also downloaded programs that allow someone to see the entire contents of your computer. Next time you fly in the U.S. think about how the airlines are gearing up to do credit and bank account checks on you to see if you are a potential terrorist.

Or - you can worry about a simple little discussion website where no one really gives a damn about your "secret" information.

Subject: RE: Thread Proliferation Control
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 09:02 PM

Rick Fielding, for a guy who claims not to really care and not have any computer tracking skills, you seem to have gone to some length to track this person down online. Looks like light stalking to me. Maybe I'm the one being paranoid now, but as a female poster, the information you are giving out about this person is troubling to me. How many other guests and members are being tracked by Max, Joe, and or the Mudcat clones?

Problem I'm having with both your & katlaughing's response is, where did you come up with this person's name in the first place? It had to come from somewhere, and neither of you said where or how you got the person's name from, so what are we to think? That tells me someone here is Mudcat is responsible for putting this person, who appears only once in the archives, on a list of posters "to be watched". Well, how do regular folks like Rick Fielding get this information, and is the passing around of information about posters to this website routinely given out when they become "a problem"?

Something just doesn't seem right to me about this whole Janet Ryan thing. Now Ralphie too mentions the name. Where is everyone here getting the information, and are the "right" members privvy to this sort of private information about people posting here?

Why do a few members and clones here have it in for this person anyway? Has this person been sanctioned elsewhere on the internet (perhaps in the other group Rick mentioned)? Has this person been personally identified by Mudcat management, their ISP contacted, etc. for doing something seriously destructive here?

Or is this, as I fear, just some negative "smoke the guest out of the hole" thing here at Mudcat? Whatever it is, it is getting VERRY CREEPY if these are the lengths people around here are going to, just to out the identity of a poster to apparently wishes to remain anonymous. Considering that this forum does allow anyone who posts here to remain anonymous, these attempts to "expose" someone's identity seems very wrong to me. It also makes me wonder what other information about posters is being swapped through Mudcat backchannels.

Subject: RE: Thread Proliferation Control
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 08:27 PM

I am sorry but all this talk of battles over turf is the paranoid perception of a few blinkered souls.

As Art pointed out, the forum continues. It is oblivious to one person's idea of 'balance' being forced upon those who have the responsibility for any balance, the posters.

Any attempt to shape or 'control' the natural balance of the various contributions, justified by references to trouble-makers, will fail anyway as the vast majority of the posters are clearly just getting on with posting.

As I would be doing if this non musical 'navel-gazing' thread had not been started. Can these be kept off the main forum and be confined to the help forum where those that find this stuff interesting can talk about it endlessly, and everyone else can plod on with the business of the forum, the contributions?

There still has been no exact problem identified, just vague references to balance or mess and the same tired old bashing of our guests and even more threats.

I suspect many others like me, like the bloody forum as it is and see no need for censorship, except the limits we place on ourselves.

How about a test to see if there really is a problem?

For the next two months or so, no tweaks, no mild consolidations etc, and then let us see if the contributors generally notice any difference or there is any resulting inbalance?

How about giving this a try first?

Subject: RE: Thread Proliferation Control
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 07:43 PM

Joe...re: cascading menus...I have advocated 'some' form of parallel forums for years. It is hard to predict the exact effect that would have, but I have both given and attended sings/parties where those who chose to chat and socialize rather than sing were politely told to do it in another room. In a large enough house, it is not only possible, but essential! What happened was that people tended to wander back & forth and the hard-core singers weren't seriously distracted.

**IF** the Forum menu were clear that parallel 'rooms' were operating, much like Jon's Annex works, and *IF* seriously off topic posts and thread drift were directed 'over there', I think it might be useful.

I know...some music threads include banter and remarks, much as real sings get noisy interruptions temporarily, as folks react to each other....but wouldn't it be just as easy...or easier...for you to ahem 'edit' things if major distractions were sent somehwere else??

what we are fighting here is human nature...and I suspect it would be a bit easier to "give the boys a racetrack" rather than trying to prohibit them from racing up & down Main Street (yeah, I sometimes race MY engine, too)

Subject: RE: Thread Proliferation Control
From: Ralphie
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 06:53 PM

Jeri...
Many Thanks..!
Have never forgiven Mrs Ackroyd for biting my ankles many years ago.
Sleep Well
Ralphie
(Barking... How does that work?)

Subject: RE: Thread Proliferation Control
From: Gareth
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 06:48 PM

Joe - B****r the arguments - just continue, you have my full support !!!

Gareth

Subject: RE: Thread Proliferation Control
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 06:39 PM

She used to post to uk.music.folk. One of Ian Anderson's most favoritest people in da woild. Hey Ralphie, have you seen Les Barker's poem about the PEL issue: Dangerous Men With Concertinas?

Subject: RE: Thread Proliferation Control
From: Ralphie
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 06:33 PM

Hi Peeps...
I'm wondering...Why does the name Janet Ryan ring several bells?
If I'm barking up the wrong Redwood, I apologise.
But, fundamentally, I agree with Art (Seems like a nice chap!)
Whats that sound...? A Knock at the door in London town...??
OMIGOD!!!....

Subject: RE: Thread Proliferation Control
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 06:15 PM

HeyaArt, check out the link I put in this thread...great interview and audio clips of Homer Ledford Wonderful musician!

Subject: RE: Thread Proliferation Control
From: Art Thieme
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 06:11 PM

You people are arguing about nothing!! The forum moves on, and you sit here, stagnating. You are simply rearranging the chairs on the deck of this ship. It's not the Titanic---unless, of course, you insist on re-floating that old wreck. In other threads, like parallel universes, the forum plods along...

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Thread Proliferation Control
From: harpgirl
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 05:59 PM

GUEST...the power to change Mudcat is and has been in your antisocial lap for a long time. Very many of the changes are the result of your antisocial manipulation of the forum. I for one, think you should be kept out completely. So don't whine about other people welding power. You're the martinet.

Subject: RE: Thread Proliferation Control
From: GUEST,The Facilitator
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 05:45 PM

Almost everyone, no matter how they want to be steeped in anonymity, leaves clues about themselves eventually, even dreaded guests. This is beyond the basic information about most of us available to Joe and Jeff and Max.

gargoyle decided too late to be just a name, and thus was relatively easy to locate. Knowing his name and location was a bit of an insurance policy, just in case he went beyond some of the low level harassing he used to do. Even though it has been possible for several years to call him on the phone or drive to his front door, no one has done this. He knows, however, that it is possible, and he has been relatively --I use the word 'relatively' intentionally-- well behaved.

Dreaded guest and a couple of others ought to realize that it only takes a few clues to ascertain true identities, if necessary.

Perhaps 'guests' in the Austin, Texas area might want to think harder about how they use this nice, friendly forum. My next post might include more than a general geographic area.

Subject: RE: Thread Proliferation Control
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 04:56 PM

Thank you all for respecting me when I made my feelings known. It was a cathartic experience and I have done everything I possibly could to spare others the same public embarrassment. I've had my say. I am satisfied.

Rick you are a great guy! You are one of the finest people I have ever met. Carol is the best thing that has ever happened to me. I've profusely thanked the Mudcat and I have thanked Max in person.

Thanks BillD, I knew that you weren't attacking Carol, I just wanted to make sure that there was no miscommunication and that your intentions were made abundantly clear.

For the record, I am not pissed. I am more than willing to support Joe in any decision that he may make. Its his job to moderate this forum, he is doing a good job, any changes he makes are his prerogative.   

Bottom Line: The mistake was mine, I take responsibility, I am sorry.

Enough said?

Subject: RE: Thread Proliferation Control
From: The Pooka
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 04:43 PM

Cripes!

Right Ons: Rick Fielding - "Joe does his best in a 'no win' situation. Most of this pallaver is just that. We do it for fun." Big Mick - "This is a friggin' forum, not the government of major countries. You act as if something bad is going to happen to your pet if you post wrong."

Somebody's gotta make da Rules & Somebody can't be Everybody. If Joe the O. is a Dictator, he's a pretty goddam Benevolent one imho. Give it a break wouldyez. / "Peronalities", indeed :) Some of you guys are getting a little Eva Nascent around here.

Peace & Love,
Guess the Dreidled Guest

Subject: RE: Thread Proliferation Control
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 04:22 PM

General deduction, no hocus-pocus, no computer behind the scenes ISP thing or anything like that. Thanks, Mr. Fielding, I may be computer savvy, but not that savvy! If one reads enough threads, with comments of others who have experience with JR, elsewhere, one can see a pattern and figure it out.

Oh, and it's not the same JR as the band you found, imo.

Subject: RE: Thread Proliferation Control
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 04:05 PM

Hi GUEST Karen.
I can almost guarantee you that any process I might use to figure out who's calling me by my name (but not giving ME the same courtesy) will NOT be the same one that katlaughing uses. I don't know Ms. Laughing that well, but I DO know that she uses COMPUTER SMARTS to figure out who's who. I can still barely turn the damn thing on.

I, on the other hand have figured out a LOT of things by simply reading the posts of the articulate ones....reading between the lines a lot (it's fun, not devious) and noticing that if one person seems to focus a lot on Minnesota issues, chances are they may LIVE in Minnesota. If they write consistently in a certain way, it's a breeze to figure out whether they're male or female....females use certain phrases that males don't. I hunted up another discussion group that I figured the person might have been interested in....and surprise...found the name Janet Ryan. Same style, same articulation, and same desire to shit disturb at times, ha ha!

I did some checking in areas where the person might work (or HAVE worked) and where they might be a volunteer. A few things checked out.

And of course I might be completely wrong! But who cares, it's not like I want to follow the person home....I just wanted a Name to call them, 'cause they called ME by my name. No big deal.

Actually, even though JR has gotten on my case (serious shit disturbing I thought ha ha!) she's one hell of a writer, and makes her points as well as all but three others on this forum (IMO). My guess is that she and Mick would probably get along great over a pint!

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: Thread Proliferation Control
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 03:20 PM

Well, I suppose you could look on it as a battle for turf. The "turf" is the Forum Menu. It's important turf, because it's the main portal to our discussion forum. It has an effect on all of us, visitors and oldtimers alike. If we visit Mudcat and see a variety of topics that interest us, we'll stick around and join the discussion. If there are very few music threads visible, the musicians may not stay long. If there is an overwhelming number of threads on any given topic, people not interested in those topics aren't likely to stay.

So, our Forum Menu should have a balance, an balance that will be inviting to the people we want to invite. My job is to maintain that balance, and to control people who are intent on causing trouble. I try to do it with as little interference as possible, but it's a difficult task. Jeff give me tools to do what I do, and I'm somewhat limited by the limitations of those tools. Thread grouping is a marvelous tool, but it doesn't work as well as we'd like on long lists of related threads. We're working on it. It's nice to be able to move messages and delete redundant threads, if done sparingly - I have to deal with messages one at a time, so that helps encourage me to do it sparingly.

You know, I'm not sure that thread creation is the root of our problem. If this were a social group, the birthday and personal threads wouldn't be out of balance. If this were a British music political action group, the number of PEL threads would certainly be appropriate. If this were a war and peace forum, the variety of Iraq threads would be marvelous.

If I may paraphrase something that Big Mick has said many times, this is NOT a Folk Music Forum - it is a forum for lovers of folk music. Our emphasis is on folk music, but we are open to all topics that are of interest to people who love this music. To keep the folk people here we have to tweak a few things to keep the balance - that's all. this is not some major censorship campaign.

We've talked of cascading menus. The Forum Menu would have general topics, and you'd click on a topic to reveal a page of related subtopics. One major problem with that is that the Forum Menu would always look the same, and it might break our community into subgroups with limited scope - the Iraq subgroup, the conspiracy theorists, the birthday revelers, the PEL activists, and the lyrics geeks. Within a very short time, the subgroups would fall out of communication with each other, and that would be a shame. I think that the eventual solution to our problem will be some system of cascading menus, but it has to be something that keeps our Forum Menu fresh and interesting.

We're open to suggestions. The trouble is, some people seem to think that we are required to follow their suggestions precisely. We welcome suggestions and take them under consideration, but we just can't do everything everybody requests.

Until we come up with a better solution, I'll be doing some mild thread consolidation to keep things in balance. I'd like to ask Mudcatters to help by simply taking a bit more care when you start a thread.

Thanks.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Thread Proliferation Control
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 02:31 PM

A Google search for Janet Ryan turns up this link:

http://www.janetryan.com/

According to her website, she is a blues singer/songwriter, has a band called Straight Up, and they look to be a Chicago band.

Subject: RE: Thread Proliferation Control
From: Peter T.
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 02:23 PM

"peronalities", what a great typo. (As I have said many times, manners maketh Mudcat).

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Thread Proliferation Control
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 01:57 PM

Above is mine.

Subject: RE: Thread Proliferation Control
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 01:54 PM

It doesn't appear as though the link I gave above is working.

Here are the results from the old forum search:

UserName Subject Posted
1 GUEST,Janet Ryan RE: BS: What do you read ? 16 Jun 01 - 11:10 AM
2 GUEST,Janet Ryan RE: BS: Nice Treaty 16 Jun 01 - 10:11 AM

Subject: RE: Thread Proliferation Control
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 01:50 PM

katlaughing and Rick Fielding, how do you know that the guest you are calling Janet Ryan, is actually a person named Janet Ryan, who posted the message you said she posted at (I'm guessing based upon your posts using this name) 9:54 a.m. to this thread?

How is it that the two of you have access to this information that the rest of us don't have? How did you get that information about this person? I have done a search of the forum archive and come up with this result for the name "Janet Ryan":

http://www.mudcat.org/Results.CFM

Two posts from someone using the name Janet Ryan as a guest on the same day, in 2001.

So what is going on here?

Do the two of you have access to IP information and ISPs through Mudcat that you have used to identify this person? Is doing that sort of thing legal? It sure doesn't seem very ethical.

Subject: RE: Thread Proliferation Control
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 01:34 PM

This thread was 32 posts old before a single guest post appeared, and nearly 50 posts old before a second guest post appeared.

Yet certain members keep trying to sidetrack the subject of the thread, and make the identities of guest posters "the problem". By current count, this thread has 81 posts. This post of mine makes it the 15th post to this thread by a guest, whether anonymous or with a handle. 15 out of 81 posts isn't all that many, yet a couple of members are once again making guests, whose identities they just love to speculate about, the issue here.

So what exactly are the problems Mudcat management are attempting to correct here? Guests? Certain guests? Certin members? Certain members and guests certain members think might be so and so? Too many threads about Iraq and PEL? Cutting and pasting?

Or is the problem that Mudcat is under new management without our being told? Could it be that the new management is posing problems?That happens sometimes, when there are a lot of newcomers to a group, and the old timers feel the need to control the newcomers. So they do what new management often does, and shake things up with a makeover in their own image?

Subject: RE: Thread Proliferation Control
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 01:32 PM

Thanks, Mick, for putting it so well. Thanks, johnnyn!

Way back when in this thread, I posted a concern to Joe about the new consolidation of threads. I have also disagreed with him about the PEL threads. I thought they have been very important because of the impact on music. Those who have invested their time and care in this community by being here through thick and thin will remember that Joe and I have often knocked heads and how silly it is to think that myself, or indeed any of the other people mentioned: Mick, Jeri, Catspaw, etc., are the types to kowtow to anyone, let alone Joe.

FOR THE RECORD:

There are no government monies going into supporting Mudcat.

Janet Ryan said, why the secrecy about who is... I might ask her the same thing re' her myriad of postings as "guest."

I have NEVER hidden the fact that I am a clone.

Clones CANNOT read, nor access, members' personal information, including their email, UNLESS MEMBERS make it public for all to see in the Members' Info Section.

I NEVER delete a post of someone whom it may be perceived I may have a problem with, i.e. gargoyle. If I see a posting that is a personal attack, I will delete it, as clones are authorised to do, BUT I will always notify Jeff or Joe when I have done so.

If I see a questionable attack or cut and paste job, I will PM Joe about it. I do not delete, edit, nor move it.

Like Jeri said, I do fix links, delete duplicate posts, and fix bad html. I don't give a damn if anyone notices. I am glad to be of service.

And, finally, if someone has a problem with me or something they think I may have done, please PM me or take it up with Joe or Jeff. As Jeri said, we don't know if you don't tell us.

Thank you,

kat