Performers fees (% or flat fee?)

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Rasener
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 02:24 AM

Countess, I thought you had stopped ranting and raving!!!! Its not good for your health. :-)

Are you going to buy the Yellowbellies 2 CD?

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Jim Lad
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 08:07 PM

Oh well. Guess not.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 08:06 PM

Guest Anon:
Read the thread title and the initial reply I made at #2.
No, it's not me that's advocating agents, necessarily.
Nor 'concert' clubs.
Yes, I'm against the concept of percentage payment designed to screw the artist.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Jim Lad
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 08:06 PM

Has the real discussion started yet? I jumped in a couple of times but some were into something other than exchanging opinions. It's an interesting topic and I'd really like to hear other's points of view.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 08:00 PM

I wonder why it continues to amaze me how some people draw an example from their own extremely limited experience and present it as a universal truth that couldn't possibly exist in a variant or contradictory form.

Take venues: they know the one in their immediate vicinity which they perhaps help run, and another a few miles down the road where their second cousin does the door - and that's it. They know thus every aspect of event management and pronouce that they're all the same: well-run and squeaky clean. Bad experiences and rippings off just never happen. They couldn't, could they? Not among 'f*lkies' (yuk how I despise that condescending term). They're all 'nice'. No, they're not. In this thread alone, they range from those who want to marry me to those who order me to go and fuck myself.

If these 'know-it-alls' would just take themselves off for a change (I wish) and travel the length and breadth of the land (as I have though always rapidly through Lincolnshire), they'd discover that venues actually range from the civilised country hotel where you're given a room maybe even with a shower if you're really lucky, to the extremely nasty inner city pub where you're mistaken upon arrival for the strip act booked for the other bar. (I'm assuming that's what happened when the Witches got told to get changed behind the bar).

Where you sleep (if offered at all) might be OK but can be (and usually is) horrendous, and not much option about who with. As for getting paid, once in a blue moon it might be handed over willingly and exceed the contract fee, though I cannot recall such a happening. Far more often, a lot of wrangling, shouting and threats have to occur before often not all of it materialises.

Then you could get stuck in the beer-soaked, smelly, gloomy bar with the tedious, slimy sound engineer (not that they all are but this one was) who insists on describing every last detail of his boring working life, Then someone overhears you telling him to plug his things in the wrong way round (please, just DO it and disappear in a puff of smoke) and repeats what you said entirely out of context. They don't, of course, remember all the shit that's been hurled at you first . . .

Oh yes, life on the road is ever so jolly and such a doddle. Why, you only work for two hours a day and not every day at that. And of course you don't have living expenses like the smug, stay-at-home citizens who hand over their hard-earned . . . ooh £3, £4 or even FIVE pounds at the door. Be bloody grateful and shut the fuck up. You're only the hired employee paid to entertain. So do it.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: jiva
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 07:32 PM

Phew!

We run a folk club, and we also perform (not as full-time professionals, but we do occasionally get paid).

The club doesn't have many paid, professional guests (maybe only 2 or 3 per year) - we run the club mainly as a platform where people can come along and do a floor spot or maybe an extended set and hone their performing skills. The club meets twice per month and what we take on the door and from the raffle goes towards maintaining the club (PA equipment, website, publicity, raffle prizes, etc) as well as building up a kitty to pay for guests. www.ashingtonfolkclub.co.uk

We don't haggle/negotiate with guests - if we book them, we pay them what they ask. Some ask for a flat fee, some a guarantee against a percentage of the door... either way is OK.

As performers we play many floor spots at as many venues as we can get to. If we are booked as guests we may ask for a flat fee (usually it will barely cover expenses for the gig), or we're equally happy to take a cut of the door money (last time we suggested 50% - with no guarantee - from a small local club, and the organiser insisted on 100%).

Jimmy & Val (jiva)
www.jiva.co.uk

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: GUEST,Anon
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 07:31 PM

Countess - What is your problem ? If a club books an artist and they agree a payment , and that payment is made , wether it be percentage
or flat fee both are happy . Are you really suggesting that an outside agent should be able to tell a club organiser how much he should charge his audience ? Or do you think all Folk Performers should only do gigs in clubs that can get a couple of hundred bums on seats every week ?

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: vectis
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 07:22 PM

I did have a performer who asked for 80% of the door take once. Had to say no. He had to make do with 100% of the take just like everybody else.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Rasener
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 06:15 PM

LOL

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Bernard
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 06:14 PM

GUEST - Mudcat can be like that. It's like the rest of us... temperamental... 50% temper, 50% mental!

But we persevere!

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Rasener
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 06:02 PM

A pleasant Guest :-)

Maybe Countess had a bad day :-)

I like Linda extend a warm welcome to Faldingworth Live, if you ever dare set foot in the place Countess :-)

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 05:56 PM

A pleasure Bernard.

Been trying to send that post for an hour - do not know why it did not take.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Bernard
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 05:53 PM

Thank you, Guest 05.34 PM - you saved me the trouble!!

;o>

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 05:52 PM

Linda it sounds good to me.

But don't I get an invite too?

I used to drink in the Duke of Cumberland was it? - a long time ago....

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 05:38 PM

Actually FolkieDave I was referring to your other paragraph-no-one has ever accused me of being succinct!! We book artistes on what we think the audience will enjoy, and use no other criteria. We therefore use performers who we either know or who we think will have the right rapport and then agree a cost. We are not a concert club, we do great singing, have great musicians, and if a guest can come and join us and enhance our pleasure great we'll pay a fair price based on what we can afford not on any profit we can make. We have fantastic premises, but we've had to move twice in recent years so God is definitely looking after us. I have just taken over because the person who frankly did a better job than ever I am gonna do, needed to have a break from it. We've done charity CD's, workshops, run a folk orchestra, hold charity events to raise money for projects in Africa, (none of which I can take credit for). but I am working really hard at it, and I really hope I don't become one of those inept or intransegent types. Anyway, I refuse to fall out with anyone, so Countess next time your in east yorkshire come and you will be very welcome!

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 05:34 PM

'In what way is anyone, least of all me, 'insulting' anyone'

Well, how about :-

silly and indeed selfish and short-sighted …….

mean-spirted organisers and punters alike who are, quite frankly, exploiting them shamelessly……

Bernard - Patronising git.- May you plug the wrong thing into the wrong socket (oo er missus) in a heavy shower . . . and fry. Bloody sound engineers. Pah!

Haven't been to this Railway nor the Villan's dump, nor do I now want to.

or if it is simply that you are nasty, blinkered, uncaring people, full stop.

offensively patronising, sexist 'world'.

as out-of-date as the cliquey 'f*lk club' in the filthy pub back room attended by a handful of bearded, sandalled old blokes/esses in tie-dyed frocks with tankards who disapprove of being anywhere near in tune or of parting with money to pay professionals. I didn't 'forget about' this type of audience but wish I could.

a butterfly mind unable to concentrate on, or even grasp the implication of selfishly refusing to pay the due door price.

Lincolnshire is what you pass through to get to Yorkshire.
>
>
>
Thank goodness you aren't insulting us .......

I always remember a remark from Kendall - fire ants bother me, pissants never !

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Bernard
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 05:30 PM

Methinks the lady protesteth too much...

I find it incongruous that someone can make so many vitriolic comments aimed directly or indirectly at so many people, yet expect people to accept that it has not happened.

Or is everyone else out of step?

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Rasener
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 04:57 PM

Only might :-)

I have to say one thing about Cottingham Live. One of the nicest places I have been to see folk music. Also brilliant becuase Real Time were on. Good modern club is that.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 04:52 PM

(1) No, its better to just let them fade away into oblivion
(2) Might do

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Rasener
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 04:47 PM

Name them then and what about buying the Cd when it comes out Countess.

Steve next time I see him I will pass on your comments. I am sure he will appreciate that.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 04:45 PM

circa 1979

No, a decade earlier. I think I was aiming to type 1970. By 1979 things were already changing drastically. In fact I left the country to escape Thatcherism and was trying to wean the Germans off Irish.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 04:40 PM

you have individually attacked people

I have not.

Two different organisers from venues where I have never been and could therefore comment neither one way not the other (Lymm and Market Rasen) chose quite wrongly to take my comments personally. The only venue I alluded to (and which Kevin Sheils quite correctly identified) was Walthamstow of which I do have personal experience and no criticism.

SOME organisers (as Kevin corrected me, not MANY) are incompetent/intransigent and the result of their ineptitude/greed/bungling have had the effect you describe on performers. I have not named them, not even obliquely, in the manner that one organiser attempted to malign a certain performer who may have behaved not entirely ethically. But the fact remains that MANY organisers are living in the past (circa 1979) and muddle along in premises and with practices which are entirely outdated and inappropriate.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: oggie
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 04:32 PM

Concerning "Yellowbellies". Brian Dawson is to me one of the greats of traditional music. He is knowledgable, scholarly,friendly and brilliant at what he does which is sing Lincolnshire Folksong with an authority no-one else IMHO comes near to. He also plays a mean accordian and fiddle!

Age 16 with a copy of "O'Neills 1001" in my hand, Brian sat down and went through the whole book ticking the important tunes I should know for sessions. I still have that book 30 odd years later.

All the best

Steve Ogden

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 04:22 PM

I believe folk artists should be paid a decent wage, and I believe that club organisers should charge appropriately.

reply........

That's not the basis on which we book at our club FolkieDave.

I suspect that in your desire to be succinct you may have missed something out.

If you haven't then which bit do you disagree with? That folk artists should not be paid a decent wage?

Or you do believe they should be paid a decent wage and you shouldn't charge accordingly? For, IMHO that is a recipe for disaster for someone!!

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Rasener
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 04:17 PM

I agree Linda

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 04:15 PM

trust me I have been reading this thread, and then I've been trying to think of any folk club that I have visited in my area that was poorly run, filthy and disgusting -and I cannot so I must be lucky. Then I tried to think of any that I would say were poorly run or where the organiser did not put any effort into it-again I cannot. But I can think of a few people who work full time, organise folk clubs and try their hardest to sustain it with no financial backing other than door charges. who have had to move premises at the drop of a hat when no suitable alternatives can be found because there is a music ban or a wide screen sport tv installed and whos membership is dwindling because people are getting older or working later and later. Its a tough profession on that we both agree, but you have individually attacked people here, and laid the charge that organiser are so inept that they are cutting off the livelihoods of performers. I think that is out of order and frankly not true in my experience.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: oggie
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 04:14 PM

In my other incarnation I am a fretworker, I make puzzles, toys, bookmarks etc. Been doing it over twenty years. Nearly went bankrupt. Used to make a lovely name jigsaw, half inch thick, each letter individually painted, gorgeous, pound a letter. Rest of stock had similar attention to detail. As I said, nearly went bust. Like Black Hawks' woodcarver, the market only stands so much.

I still make name jigsaws, only now they're quarter inch thick, painted generic rainbow colours one side only, I can make them two at a time and even though I charge a bit less I make a lot more money for my time.

Yes, they're not as nice as before BUT I can make a living at it. At the end of the day the organisers may be doing it for love, altruism or whatever but the full-time performer has to pay their bills. Agents have to make a living or they become ex-agents very quickly.

All the best

Steve Ogden

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Rasener
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 03:58 PM

Just realised i did 100 :-)

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Rasener
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 03:58 PM

Well they will be on. As well as John Conolly, Bill & Dave Fletcher, Stitherum, John Blanks, Dave & Julie Evardson, Old Parrot Band,Byards Leap, Ploughmans Bunch, Winter Wilson, Martin Browne & Elizabeth Padgett, Pigeon English, Higgledy Piggledy Band, Gwenda & Terry Cater, Helian Keys, Cara, Da Capo, Paul Dickinson & Angela King and maybe some more if there is room.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 03:50 PM

Hey, Les, you do what you do. If I were doing something similar I wouldn't be able to adhere to the principles I have because the perspective would be different.

The CD would be worth the money for the tracks by Brian Dawson and Liam Robinson alone. Both brill.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Rasener
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 03:38 PM

Hey countess, I have to admire you for sticking to your principles. It won't change my viewpoint, but there you go. Life is too short. lets all go out there and enjoy what we can whilst we can and do whatever we personally can in our own ways to forward the folk scene.

I am producing a CD for charity for clic SARGENT http://www.clicsargent.org.uk/Home

It will be called Yellowbellies 2 (being the second Cd for charity). It will contain songs from many fine performers based in Lincolnshire who have kindly donated a song to the CD.

Can I count on you being one of the first people to buy the CD ?

You can see the review of the first CD here Yellowbellies It made about £1500 and I am hoping we can make a bit more this time.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: GUEST,chris
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 02:37 PM

hear hear Anahata - thank you, a realist - you've put it in a nutshell!

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 02:22 PM

Linda, forgive me for having to tell you this, but this is what comes of NOT READING THE THREAD.

My entire rationale is that I do not have a 'point of view' here, as I am no longer either performer or organiser (and I have been both, as well as music journalist). This renders me entitled to speak out where others cannot. The only interest I declare in this context (here read thread title), is that I am firmly on the side of the performer because it is their livelihood we are talking about, whereas in the case of the amateur organiser, it is not. It is merely a spare-time activity. This is not to denigrate the hard work they put in, but to question whether, in this day and age, this section of the industry should still be struggling on in such a ramshackle, outdated way. This is not 'insulting' anyone but criticising how it is done. Some of the venues still being used are disgusting and unsuitable. This is unprofessional, unfair to performers and punters alike, damaging to the music's image, and thus a contributor to depressing the artists' earnings. It is unacceptable for organisers to whinge about what they 'cannot afford' and think up ways of paying less. Organisers have to organise their events better and some are already doing this by imaginative and innovative ventures and programming. Others need to catch up and quickly.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 02:15 PM

that's not the basis on which we book at our club FolkieDave.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Black Hawk
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 02:12 PM

I dont think anybody, organiser or not, has suggested an artist should not be paid a fair fee. The question was how it should be arrived at. I certainly do not see how any performer can insist upon the admission fee being £??. Surely that is for the organiser to decide and, as has been said, if agreement cannot be reached dont book them.

My comments on hours worked were slightly sarcastic BUT it is not unique to folk singers. If I have a task in Scotland I am paid from when I arrive at site to when I leave the site. Travelling, preparation etc. is my problem and expense. If I dont want to do it they will get somebody else. Same with singers, plumbers, electricians etc.
Ever watch a wood-carver carve a full, detailed chess set? Many hours of work but can only be sold for a certain figure, after that no-one will buy ! £/hr is laffable ..........

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 02:08 PM

I have read this thread from the start. I join in having had a weekend away.

I believe folk artists should be paid a decent wage, and I believe that club organisers should charge appropriately.

We get our folk music on the cheap and it is treated contemptuously by the mainstream media - at least in part as a consequence. I remember many many years ago a BBC producer being given the chance to give the Watersons a spot on a show. They were at that time one third of the price of the Spinners. "They can't be much good" he opined and promptly booked the Spinners.

I doubt if things have changed much.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 01:57 PM

organisers were actually expressing a point of view Countess, it is allowed, even if it is different from yours. Downtrodden and whingeing or not, the are still unpaid and devote hours to arranging and supporting clubs throughout the country, do not toss them or their views aside. Your concerns are well meaning I am sure, but we are not Tesco's there is no cartel to keep fees low-we pay what we can afford.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: oggie
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 01:57 PM

The £150 quoted is not for 2 hours work, in effect it's for a day's work, it may even be for 2 days work depending on how the gigs work out. It could even be most of a week's work. If you read one of Vin Garbutt's article he reckons 3 nights a week is the max hw can do. Ok so Vin gets more but even so it's not a fortune. Dick Gaughan reckons he earns, over the year, not much more than national minimum wage. You can't work every night or even every week.

The labourer is worthy of their hire. If you can do it by running singers' nights at £2.50 and a guest every 4th week then great, your punters are getting a class act for approx £10 plus a lot of bonus music. Doesn't always work like that. Especially in urban areas where there are free sessions and lots of choice, club nights can be poorly attended and as more pubs are putting on free music (often with bands)it's a lot of competition Some places have to work differently, good luck to them as well BUT the artist has a life to finance and a limited number of occassions a year when they can do it, you cannot blame them or their agent for trying to ensure the best deal for them. If you can't agree terms then ce la vie, it's a shame that your customers won't see them at your club but it happens. If the economics don't stack up it can't be done on either side.

All the best

Steve Ogden

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 01:49 PM

My 'argument' is that performers should be properly paid.
Which I've stuck to throughout the thread while 'poor, downtrodden organisers whinged about how no-one ever thanked them for doing not a lot.

It's not ME that took the thread (during which I've been proposed to and told to fuck off) off-topic. It's a topic and I can keep on for ever and bore for England about.

And will . . .

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 01:43 PM

I don't think your last thread is doing much to support your argument.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 01:39 PM

I've never been to sodding Lincolnshire so have had no opportunity to 'insult' it.
It's 90 miles of boredom on the train.
It's probably very nice.
Though Percy Grainger was more than a bit odd.
And Joseph Taylor was a strange sort of singer.
But I haven't BEEN THERE, least of all to Les Worrall's venue.
Jon Loomes says we should meet each other. And like each other.
Can't imagine why.
I don't even like Aston Villa.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 01:32 PM

Others in this thread have mentioned 18-hour days while on the road. This is work, every minute of it. It also equates with a wage of under £100 a day at minimum wage rates. This is far worse than unimpressive. It is slave labour.

To count the two hours spent on stage as the only work done in the day is stunningly idiotic. John Kirkpatrick was trying to be ironic. I must try and remember to tell him how completely his song passes by those 'real' men who believe 'work' only occurs in factories and, presumably, on nightshift. What do THEY do in the daytime, I wonder?

Your middle one-liner paragraph is utter crap, incomprehensible in its sheer obtuseness:

What is 'the folk community'?
What 'way of life'?
Who 'enjoys' it?
In what way is anyone, least of all me, 'insulting' anyone (apart from those who persist in insulting musicians by not seeing the need to pay them properly, obviously?)

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Rasener
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 01:17 PM

>>You not only insult individuals but whole sections of the folk community. Just because you dont like a way of life dont insult those who enjoy it.
<<

Agree with that, and it has now become an insult to people living in Lincolnshire.

I am Villan which has to do with Aston Villa My name is Les Worrall is yours ....... Well I actually know your name D.E., but I won't post it.

You are an insult to the folk scene

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 01:10 PM

the ultimate test of this would be for clubs to stop booking acts and only have singers and musicians nights for a couple of quid and see if the club folds or to up the door fees to pay acts a higher percentage/flat fee to see if the audience count drops and for the club to fold ... seems pointless really, book acts who's terms you are happy with whether a fee or a percentage and if the terms don't suit either then it's so long been nice to know you. Life is too short to trade insults. when i recently took over our club I sent out a questionnaire, the result of which was that people would probably pay more but come less to guest nights -who wins then? Rural clubs in particuar are only going to get a limited audience regardless of the amount of advertising and marketing.

Countess Richard, villan's club is not a dump, it is full of people who enjoy live music in a rural location. we have performed there many times. You owe him an apology. you are also creating an environment of'us' and 'them' whic does not exist and does a disservice to the industry. I am sure your oomments are not meant to offend-but as a club organiser who spends hours advertising making posters listening to promos, speaking to acts and turning up each week when I could quite easily not bother, well I am offended. I love our club and our people and the acts are just a small part of it, they are not our raison d'etre. So less high horse and more positive suggestions -for example, a club of 35-40 people what would you charge for a guest?

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Black Hawk
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 01:09 PM

Dont think I'll bother after this.

Countess Richard!
I live in the UK where the minimum wage is approx. £5/hr depending on age/hrs of works & other variables. Whichever country you live in is paying quite well if the minimum wage (taking Captains figures in the last post)is £75/hr (2hrs at £150).Wish I was in your Union.
I realise this doesn't take in gear, travelling, learning etc. but neither does any other trade.

You not only insult individuals but whole sections of the folk community. Just because you dont like a way of life dont insult those who enjoy it.

Captain - I regularly perform in a club which recently 'employed' you (booked you as guest and a great night it was too). This club has floor singers 3 weeks and a guest night on the 4th. Everyone puts into the club funds, buys raffle tickets etc. and on a guest night the door fee is raised SLIGHTLY. Thus the guest gets his/her fee and nobody has to dig deep now and again for an act some will not want to see. Thus, a regular attendance figure is practically guaranteed.
This club has been running for nearly 40yrs so the organiser must have a fair idea of how to balance fees. I agree with you that it is better to sing to 100 than a 'select' 10 when the fee is the same.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 01:02 PM

. . . and I play violin, guitar, English concertina and keyboards.
Why do you want to know?
I'm not dropping by for a floorspot.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 12:56 PM

I wasn't talking to you.
To me, Lincolnshire is what you pass through to get to Yorkshire.
Haven't seen your place so cannot comment.

PS Are you actually villa-i- nous (which might be interesting), or is it just that you cannot spell?

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Rasener
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 12:38 PM

Give it a break Countess Richard. Do you still play the fiddle? or is that to impress people on myspace?

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 12:29 PM

As I said at the outset (in #2):

Perhaps organisers who want to pay a performer a percentage of not very much because they are failing to run their venue on an economic basis and charge a realistic entrance fee could arrange for said artists to pay only a percentage of their mortgage or gas bill, or strike a bargain at the supermarket checkout because their earnings from playing such venues are insufficient to pay Mr Tesco.

The non-white scavenging bird deems such performers to be 'employees' and not 'Guests'. I certainly do not share his view that they are thus not even entitled to the legal minimum wage (which is what a major, headlining band were just about scrape once all tour expenses are deducted). If there were to be a Mudcat trade union meeting, perhaps this is what could top the agenda.

I have not (yet) 'insulted' those organisers who don't consider it necessary to pay a decent fee, nor this newly flown-in bystander who backs their short-sighted stinginess. I do, however, criticise all of them sharply for failing to recognise the long-term damage their myopic, laissez-faire (I suppose they translate this as 'traditional', ha!), good-enough-for-f*lk sloppy (lack of) thinking is doing to the music. And for how insulting this is to the musicians.

But it is not solely a question of the organiser paying the artists the rate for the job but also that an appropriate atmosphere is created at the venue by getting sufficient numbers in (regardless of door price). It is equally insulting to the artist to expect them to play in front of a mere dozen Usual Suspects, even each has paid £50 and thus covered costs. It's even worse when an organiser with more spare cash than ability and initiative routinely makes up a shortfall.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Rasener
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 11:29 AM

Bloody hell Captain Birdseye you have said exactly what I try to achieve.


I agree. What the hell does it matter to you, as long as you get a fee that is acceptable to you.

Likewise so much better to have 60 people in than 15. And of course if you sell more CD's great.

There is also no arguing over how many people are in the place.

The best post so far CB