Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 04 Sep 09 - 01:34 PM

Foe teachers and other interested parties, this should definitely be linked to the FaF website and facebook, if it already hasn't been.
Sing Up

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: theleveller
Date: 04 Sep 09 - 06:32 AM

Tom, I had a similar experience when I wrote to my MP, David Davis. I got a reply from Diana Johnson, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State for Schools, stating much the same thing and adding, "English folk music is mentioned in the Music Study Programme as an example of the kinds of music that students could study.....through Sing Up, the national singing programme funded by the Government, over 300 songs are available in a web-based song bank (www.singup.org) for primary teachers to use. Many of these are traditional English folksongs. Over 70 percent of English primary schools are registered to use the resource."

Again, no mention of the BNP issue.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 04 Sep 09 - 06:21 AM

Anahata:

The website is built, and we're currently putting together the content for the pages - the only thing holding us up is a few glitches around online sales. While I realise this isn't the most important dimnension by a long stretch, we wanted to launch the site in its entirety because people have been clamouring for the merch.

Having said that, we've been planning a September launch for the website for some time, and still hope to deliver this.

To answer another question further down the page: no, the site will not have a forum or messageboard.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 04 Sep 09 - 05:32 AM

Anahata: sorry, it's not from the 'official' site - which as you say seems to still be under construction, that's just a cut & paste from the Facebook site.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: treewind
Date: 04 Sep 09 - 05:03 AM

"the mission statement on the FaF site"
Which web site is that? A Google search for some of that text showed only a "Democratic Gold" blog site, something from archive.org and this thread!

Isn't it about time that www.folkagainstfascism.com got at least some text saying what it's about, even if it's just a copy of the Facebook blurb. Not everybody wants to join a facebook group (I don't). The sites I mentioned above did have some good content - at least the FaF site could link to them? If there's a real problem with keeping a proper web site up to date I might be able to help.

"If you're a Folk club or organisation, you can affiliate to Folk Against Fascism."
Is there some specific procedure for doing this, or is it a matter of simply declaring your affiliation in your publicity material?

Anahata

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Leadfingers
Date: 04 Sep 09 - 04:51 AM

Well Stated Tom !

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 04 Sep 09 - 04:46 AM

Richard's concern notwithstanding, I agree with Tim* that one of the best ways we have of preventing English Folk Arts from being hi-jacked by the BnP is to have a short but sweet module introduced into the primary school curriculum. The key point being that it needs to be done by an incumbent centrist government to stop it becoming an election issue, (which the Far Right could then easily manipulate during the campaign period).

In fact the very first thing I did after the European election was to write to my MP, Fabian Hamilton, suggesting just this.

At the time I was promoting exactly such a scheme to Leeds primary schools, and was confident I'd get a big take-up (so this wasn't about Jobs for Toms). My idea was that it should be introduced nationally - even if only one module in an entire school career. The message would be clear, and it would serve as a reference point in other subjects too.

Incidentally I had been horrified to discover in my research for that project that there IS a small element of 'folk' in the curriculum - under World Music (ok ok -sigh-) but upon examination this turned out to be only about Irish music! (Obviously I love Irish music, and think it absolutely must be heard in English schools - but the key point is that kids need to know what the children were singing and dancing in that very playground 50, 100, 200 years ago if they're to have any chance of putting the Irish, Bengali, Chinese, West Indian, Ukrainian, Younameit traditions into context (there's lots of wonderful non-English music in primary schools and that's brilliant) - never mind the issue of having the hole plugged by thugs).

Fabian agreed entirely, and forwarded my letter to Vernon Coaker the Minister for Schools.

To our disappointment they initially missed the point about the BnP entirely, and wrote back advising that schools were now free to teach English Folk Music if they wished (assuming they can find a space)!

We replied that they'd missed the point, and only this week I got a second reply.

"Your constituent's concern about the BNP and folk music is not a National Curriculum matter. Mr Bliss may also be interested to know that there are safeguards in law to guard against biased or unbalanced teaching. Section 407 of the Education Act 1996 requires school governing bodies, head teachers and local authorities to take all reasonably practical steps to ensure that, where political or controversial issues are brought to pupils' attention, they are offered a balanced presentation of opposing views. If Mr Bliss has concerns about the broader area of "our cultural heritage" these might be raised with the Department of Culture, Media and Sport."

Talk about joined-up government!

I'm still considering my next step.

Tom

*I read all Tim's posts and did not for one minute assume that he was a BNP toll - in fact I was shocked and alarmed when people reacted as they did. May I tactfully suggest again that the best way of dealing with someone you have a hunch is not 'on the level' is to shout at them in total silence.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 04 Sep 09 - 04:17 AM

Following some recent disagreements about the in/appropriateness of 'small' folk events seen as becoming 'political' by associating themselves with FaF, I thought I'd cut & paste this from the mission statement on the FaF site. It seems clear to me, that the mission statement speaks about the importance of collective ground level support from ordinary folk enthusiasts and small events. This sense of a moderate (no coaches, no eggs, no chanting crowds) but united expression of solidarity with the cause, is one of the things I like most about this campaign. And so am asking in all honesty, with *no* desire to provoke a fight, "how small is too small?"

"Folk Against Fascism isn't a political party or a bureaucratic, top-heavy organisation. It is any and all of us who want to make ourselves aware of the BNP's bigoted view of our history and culture, and who want to do something about it. [..]

The BNP's Activists and Organisers Handbook encourages its members to get involved in the folk scene; Folk Against Fascism aims to make such infiltration impossible, with support coming from all sections of the folk community.

We can be found on the web and at various folk clubs and festivals, and we encourage people to organise and support events in their own area. [..]

We are currently organising a series of large-scale concerts to be held starting next year, but also encourage people to join the group, set up shows, distribute our stickers, badges and T Shirts, or simply pass on information to friends.

If you're a Folk club or organisation, you can affiliate to Folk Against Fascism.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 06:26 PM

oops, that's what comes of having the cat trying to play with the mouse at the same time as me *LOL* Sorry Richard. I'd sooner shoot myself than join the BNP!

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)
half and half

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 06:20 PM

PS Charlie 50/50, does the name change mean that you are now a BNP troll?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 06:19 PM

Tim, my first degree was in Engineering. However, having had Shakespeare rammed down my throat at school (prep and public), I have always hated it. Having had some country and Scottish dancing rammed down my throat at prep school, I have always hated it. Having had "divinity" as a subject rammed down my throat at school (prep and public) I have always hated it. Having had compulsory haircuts at school, and having had to toe the line sartorially as a West End or City lawyer for decades, look at me now!

Trust me, if you want people to love their traditions, do not make learning them compulsory at school.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 05:31 PM

There are more important issues at hand than what I think of you and what you think of me, I'd much prefer to deal with them, and not in a moderate way, that's never been my way.

Charlotte Olivia Roberts (Ms)
half and half

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: jeddy
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 05:29 PM

as much as i don't think you will all like this i feel i must point out, that people are free to use their own material as they see fit.
if this means singing for the BNP, although why i do not know, we have to accept this and try to talk them round.
the whole point of FaF is to stop the BNP using artists music who have NOT given permission.

welcome tim, i didn't see your' first post, but you will soon see that some people( me included) tend to read stuff with an edge to it where there wasn't any. if i do this to you in future i am sorry in advance.

i seem to have missed alot of guest posts that you are all refering to. i know we are not suppoesed to comment on policy, but as an informal request could we allow guest posts to remain for a while so when we read through the threads we are not so lost? i don't think i am the only one who sits and scratches my head in confusion.( i do hope that isn't nits as i have been around my little niece and nephews)


take care all

jade x x x x

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Gervase
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 05:25 PM

Maybe he is maybe he isn't, time will tell
FFS, who the hell are you to sit in judgement? Three short weeks has been enough time to tell me that you're a one-trick pony shouting as loudly as you can to prove that you're the most anti-fascist here.
However, if it makes you happy, OK, you win. Congratulations on being the most right-on person on this forum this month. Have a gold star.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 05:17 PM

"it is the principal reason for FaF, which was founded to say "No!" to the BNP's commercial arm selling CD compilations of folk-artists material without their consent."

It is indeed ONE reason. It shares status and importance with the organisation's other aims.

"Steve Knightley has shown what can be done, threaten them with court action if they don't cease and desist, without the help of any organisation other than his own."

Steve did indeed get the BNP to stop playing his song on their website through threatening legal action. However, what Excalibur is doing, in selling folk recordings for which the secondary rights have been sold on, is perfectly legal - that is the problem and the point. FAF is highlighting the BNP's actions, and giving artists the opportunity to publicly distance themselves from the exploitation by the far right of their music.

Judging by the number of artists at summer festivals wearing FAF t-shirts, many are welcoming the opportunity.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 05:02 PM

Fascists are not the only ones who have used and use CD replicators as tools to get the product out.

The name Dave Bulmer comes to mind and as far as I know he's not a member of the BNP

"folk-artists material without their consent"
Steve Knightley has shown what can be done, threaten them with court action if they don't cease and desist, without the help of any organisation other than his own.

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)
half and half

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Royston
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 04:54 PM

Fascists are not the only ones who have used and use CD replicators as tools to get the product out, however that isn't part of what's happening now.

Ollie, that is what's happening now and it is the principal reason for FaF, which was founded to say "No!" to the BNP's commercial arm selling CD compilations of folk-artists material without their consent.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Tim Hague
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 04:34 PM

Richard, without introducing teaching of traditions within schools, not only ours but the other members of our society, then we are on a hiding to nothing, and that direction has to be instigated from the government as they seem to rule the curriculum with a rod of iron.

BTW I'm not a teacher.., I'm just an engineer who has never been on a course in PC speak!

Tim

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 04:34 PM

I've seen what government support can do when trying to reclaim anything, you end up with all the attendent paperwork, in triplicate please, and more headaches than you would ever want.

People will have their opinions on the eventual effectiveness of the FaF, I know I have mine, time will tell one way or the other. Fascists are not the only ones who have used and use CD replicators as tools to get the product out, however that isn't part of what's happening now.

Charlotte OliviaRoberts (Ms)
half and half

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Royston
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 04:26 PM

You're quite right, Tim. That's why FaF is a great step forwards - explicitly claiming our heritage as ours, and available to all, not leaving it to a bunch of heartless, talentless scum whose only artistic tools are a CD replicator and blood & guts fascist rock acts.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 04:25 PM

That is more constructive Tim, perhaps you are not what you seemed.

I am not so sure that "government support" is the best way to reclaim our heritage from lack of interest and/or extremists.

But reclaim it we should.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Tim Hague
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 04:09 PM

Good Evening
Maybe I did not choose my words particularly well regarding the support of the tradition and for that I apologise.
We seem, as a group of people extremely reticent in promoting our folk traditions and through this we do leave it open for the dragging knuckles strain of Brits.
A small story, recently I was touring Hungary with a team of step dancers performing clog from the north east, as I sing I was asked to sing and call a few dances. There were teams from a number of Eastern European countries and France, all extremely fine dancers. There were a number of comments from the other teams to the effect that they did not know that the English had traditions of dance and song, when we performed people of all ages came out and watched.
The last time I danced in London at Westminster Morris Day of Dance, we were dancing outside Westminster Abbey, I was chatting to some of the tourists, then I met a family from the midlands, they asked `what is this?'..., they had never seen morris!
Only by reclaiming our traditions with support from Government will we get rid of this cancer in our society.

Now I dare say that somewhere in the above someone will take exception
I have broad shoulders, I'm a folky :)

Tim

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 03:35 PM

"you've not really managed one original thought or contribution to any debate"
-Royston
whatever you say.

"more circumspect about the choice of targets for your shrill squawking, because Gervase has a long heritage here and is as "sound as a pound" on these issues."
-Royston

Maybe he is maybe he isn't, time will tell

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 03:21 PM

"This is, unfortunately a dead thread."

Yep. I think it's probably best to let it fall off the page.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Royston
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 03:03 PM

Gervase, you are right but it's not worth getting involved. This is, unfortunately a dead thread.

Tim, your "Guest" threads were deleted, I don't know why exactly. It seems your "registered" posts will persist. I think you should stick around. Your first posts got me worried but I think all people deserve the benefit of the doubt.

Ollie, I will never suggest that anyone stop slagging off the BNP. Good luck to you. But you are becoming grossly tedious and since you arrived here (3 weeks ago) you've not really managed one original thought or contribution to any debate. I support your right, however, to keep chipping away at the fascists.

If you've only been around 3 weeks, you do need to be more circumspect about the choice of targets for your shrill squawking, because Gervase has a long heritage here and is as "sound as a pound" on these issues.

Now if you respond by calling me racist or naive on issues of racial and BNP politics then we shall know that you really have lost the plot.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 02:49 PM

"Labour minister Kim Howells that his idea of hell was three folk singers in a bar marked rock bottom"

Yeah we know, Steve Knightley keeps reminding us in his song Roots.

"And a minister said his vision of hell
Is three folk singers in a pub near Wells"

and moderation is to sit with your thumb up your arse and do nothing, (which is why the BNP got representatives into the European Parliament, people not getting out and voting) nasty habit that!


Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Gervase
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 02:38 PM

I bow to yours and Richard Bridge's clearly superior knowledge of the far right in the UK. Unfortunately all of Tim Hague's posts bar one seem to have been removed (unlike, strangely, those of the avowedly BNP 'Sam'), so I can't really comment now. All I do see is a massive assumption.
I happen to agree with him that none of the mainstream parties has done anything significant to boost, encourage or endorse traditional British culture, leaving the field open for the BNP. For me the comments of Labour minister Kim Howells that his idea of hell was three folk singers in a bar marked rock bottom. You can split hairs over who offered what limp support to opponents of the Licensing Act, but it doesn't convince me that any party gives a flying fart.
Still, you'll probably assume that I'm a fascist for disagreeing with you. Now that that would be a lark!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 12:54 PM

There's nothing unfortunate about it, you've been taken in by Tim Hague and your moderation, Richard Bridge and I haven't been taken it by Mr. Hague. (we've seen this scenario time and time again) As I believe I've already stated, Mr. Hague speaks out of both sides of his mouth (but not with forked tongue [yet])
As Richard says, if it looks like a duck.....

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 12:47 PM

What has he done? Ridden in, spouted the line that only the BNP support traditions (a significant part of BNP acceptanc propaganda) and supported it by a total falsehood. If it looks like a duck...

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Gervase
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 12:37 PM

That's unfortunate. A bit of moderation is what stops people savaging every stranger that heaves into view - like poor Tim.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 11:24 AM

"Please, chaps - a little moderation."
- Gervas Webb
Moderation isn't, never was, nor never will be, my middle name, I gave up on that nasty habit alooonnnggg time ago.

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)
not a chap

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Gervase
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 04:37 AM

For Pete's sake - what has poor Tim Hague done to warrant such an attack? Calm down, Mr Bridge. You have no evidence for your assumption that he's a member of the BNP - and such an assumption stated publicly could be perceived as defamatory.
This whole issue is getting out of hand. Yes, we hate Nazis. But do we have to go down the Bush avenue of "If you aren't with us then you're against us"?
Please, chaps - a little moderation.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Tim Hague
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 02:40 AM

Richard
Where do you get your assertion from that I actually have a party, as far as I'm concerned `I'd toss them all up in a high gale of wind' etc,

and as regards the `Obby Oss', I know how its spelt, and have done for tens of years

But I suppose that whatever I say now will not convince you that I don't walk around with a skinhead haircut and a black shirt, you may realise that attitudes like that are equally fascist...

BTW why was my last post deleted?, all it said was that I had lost family to fascism and probably had more cause to dislike them than some on here...

Its a strange life

Tim

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Sep 09 - 06:01 PM

It is of course gibberish that Hague utters. The 2-in-a-bar rule was the pre-existing rule pursuant to which 2 performers on a licensed bar needed no additional licence. The number of performers was conted over the whole evening, and recorded accompaniment de-activated the exemption.

The Licensing Act removed that exemption.

It was proposed and bulldozed (including by the use of untruth) by the DTI and DCMS (theoretically civil servants, but under Labour Party orders) but opposed by the Lib-Dems, the Conservatives, Shepherd Neame breweries, and a number of pressure groups including the Performer-Lawyer Group that I founded. It was initially oposed by the MU but they jumped ship in due course. Probably someone was offered a gong.

In the House of Lords, the Lib-Dems abandoned ship when they were offered the Morris exemption. The Conservatives stuck out for an acoustic exemption and a small gigs exemption. I was actually there at the time.

I think, Hague, that you are exposed as a troll by your own ignorant words. I am reminded of your party's website, which thinks that "'Obby 'Oss" is spelt "Hobby Horse". So much for a genuine love of traditions.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 02 Sep 09 - 05:09 PM

"You have my wholesale support but isn't it a shame that the only party which does not seem to ridicule our traditions is the facsist party, where were the Labour Party when the 2 in a pub rule was forced through"
- GUEST,Tim Hague

our "Guest" was speaking out of both sides of his mouth, something I've notoced a fair amount of with a few of our past "Guests" evidence(?) that it is the same person perhaps?

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 02 Sep 09 - 05:05 PM

"Tim" the problem with your last assertion is that frankly no-body expects the latest "Guest Tim Whomever" to re-post anything. But we do expect Tom, or Bob or Ben or Lisa or Sam or any other number of inconsistant "Guests" with no apparent genuine interest (other than that a very superficial ideological one, inspired by far right-wing propaganda) to keep re-inventing themselves in ever increasing new on-line forms, just like the Hydra of Greek Myth.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 03:21 PM

There is an answer (to our 41-post new member would-be latin BNP troll) based on the natural and historical politics of folk music - but it would be a BS topic.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 03:09 PM

Those who won't will be branded "crypto-fascists" and driven out of the folk scene.

I'll break my usual rule not to reply to people who don't sign in - and ask for the person who wrote this to show how this could be done.

Expulsion is something the BNP are good at - which is why Matthew Single published the membership list. But I don't know how the folk world could do this.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 02:21 PM

apart form the fact that GUEST,fashionista has no real standing on these threads due to the 'guest' status, me thinks this person talks out of both sides of his/her mouth.

A very slight condemnation of the BNP.

"The BNP talk big but there is hardly any evidence of actual infiltration"

and a good old-fashioned slamming of the left in the rest of the posting.
Oh and GUEST,fashionista, you are the one throwing the trndy political catch phrases (crypto-fascists) around, no one else has.

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)
(neither right nor left)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 01:18 PM

"Charlotte - have you ever moderated a forum?"
- GUEST Tom Bliss
Yes I have and still do, and I'm perfectly aware of the time taken to maitasin it. It's a matter of budgeting my time so that I have all my bases covered.

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 01:12 PM

Yep, it's those bloomin Bed and Breakfast guys - they're the real enemy!

I don't think FaF will be taken over by the left. Far too many folkies (specially the ones with microphones) are wet greeny, baby-blue/pink liberals like me.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 01:10 PM

"You are not of the body!" (old Star Trek reference, there)."
- Taconicus
then there is, of course "We are The Borg, resistance is futile, you will be assimilated!" (sorry couldn't resist!)

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 01:08 PM

Charlotte - have you ever moderated a forum? It can demand a lot of time and attention, and a forum that's likely to be as contentious as a FaF one would need a great deal of moderating. I'm not saying don't do it, specially if volunteers can be found, but bear in mind that like motorways forums can create more traffic than they relieve (and a FaF one would would soon attract BnB supporters and become battleground).

My main point was to remind others that starting a FaF forum would not remove the topic from Mudcat. I won't mention mudmod policy here, because I may not, but I can say that there are plenty of people with enlightened views on this website, so in that sense Mudcat is self-moderating, and that's a good thing if we want open-minded debate around thius.

Taconicus if understand what you're saying I don't think you need to worry on that score if you are a genuine supporter of freedom.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Taconicus
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 01:04 PM

Thanks for the concern, Ms. Ollivia. But most political movements (and I mean "political" in the original sense of the word) do become political in the partisan sense, some more quickly than others. That's just the way of the world, as is having to dodge brickbats when you speak out about anything, and people start pointing at you and chanting "You are not of the body!" (old Star Trek reference, there). I'm not too worried; most folks here are pretty friendly despite our differences (and thank goodness for differences).

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 12:50 PM

Careful Taconicus, next the old line "if you're not with us then you're against us' will be hurled at you.Somwhere in this thread Jon Boden commented that he did not want to see FaF become a tool of the left, to which I agreed, unfortunately I think it maybe too late, FaF has become just that.

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Taconicus
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 12:22 PM

Tom, I'm not talking about opinions here on this forum (wherever it is; I no longer see this thread when I go to "Forum Home" or the mudcat.org main page thread list). I'm talking about the hypocrisy in this particular movement, which is fairly blatant. It is NOT just moderate political views being expressed to counteract extreme political views (definition of "extreme": whatever the ~other guy~ is saying). This seems to be an attempt to silence the other guy, that's all. The following is from the BBC News article referenced (and linked) in the first post in this thread.

"Music has been a very powerful political tool, usually for the left. What concerns me is that the BNP could do the same thing from a far-ight perspective." - Joan Crump, founder of "Folk Against Fascism."

The movement may have had its origins in the objections by artists to use of their own songs for purposes to which they do not subscribe, but as applied it seems to be premised on the principle that only the left have the moral right to use folk music for political purposes. And that is, indeed, "political use of folk music for me, but not for thee." The people who most loudly decry the use of folk music by ~those people~ to push ~their~ political causes, seem to be the first to object to any suggestion that they shouldn't use folk music themselves to push their own political causes on any audience who just showed up to hear some good music.

Now the actual expression of the movement, if it comprises singing songs that give their own point of view, I'm all for that. What I'm calling out is the notion that folk music must be the exclusive province of only one camp. When that becomes fact, it will only be because freedom of speech has ceased to exist.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 12:12 PM

Personally I believe a forum at the FaF site is a tremendous idea, and a moderated one at that.

"No point in spreading the workload too wide"
- GUEST,Tom Bliss

get more people involved in the process and stop making excuses.

No point in spreading the workload too wide
- GUEST,Tom Bliss

same as above.

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 10:49 AM

Owen and Ralph - a forum in another place may or may not be possible or desirable (they're free and easy to set up but hard to keep spam-free, never mind keeping out the flame-throwers).

But a forum elsewhere won't stop the topic cropping up here ALL the time - and Mudcat will always get far more traffic than any FaF-controlled site.

So FaF supporters will always have to keep an eye on here, and react as required. No point in spreading the workload too wide.

Taconicus. Every opinion is political. Even moderate middle ground views are political. Nothing wrong with that. In this situation moderate political views are being expressed to counteract some extreme political views. That's not "Political use of folk music for me, but not for thee," it's just opinions.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Taconicus
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 09:46 AM

The merits of the respective parties aside, this seems like a serious case of "Political use of folk music for me, but not for thee."

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 01:33 AM

Hi Owen.

Fair points well made.
As we all know, the very fact that Mudcat is (mainly) un-moderated, is a good and a bad thing. Good that it allows vigourous debate, but bad when it's targeted by the likes of the bnp, who will stop at nothing to subvert any thread.
As you say, let's wait until the website is up and running, and I'm sure the organisers would welcome ideas from the rest of us.
(They're still probably travelling back from Towersey and Shrewsbury!)
Ralph