uk folk clubs high standard

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 May 19 - 03:13 PM

The bed-rock of the UK folkscene consists of like-minded individuals who are indulging in a remarkable national (international?) love and respect for their hobby. Similar events going on all around the country, all with a common people groundswell with little input and interference from the rich and powerful. The music is pretty much the same in any of these areas, so much that someone from Thurso can walk into an event in Penzance and feel immediately at home.

The few arseholes aside it nurtures social interaction, respect for the music, and is more often than not about inclusion. That is what is important about it. The fact that long ballads often sit alongside the latest compositions seamlessly says a lot for it. All interests have their nutjob purists (I should know, I once was one) and even these are largely tolerated.

I remember back in the 60s we made a great effort to take the music out of the folk club to the people and we were largely successful with that. Today we are doing the same, at least we are in my neck of the woods. Many sessions and singarounds, all the ones I know and attend, are held in a public bar where Joe Public can sit and listen or perhaps eventually join in; not in a private room with an entry fee. Nothing wrong with that at all but Joe Public rarely gets to see that.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 May 19 - 02:54 PM

Ah but, Jack, those 5-song Frankies might eventually look at what 100-song Harry is doing and become 8-song Eddies and 9-song Normans...…
It doesn't happen overnight but the possibilities are there.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 May 19 - 09:38 AM

There aren't many people like Walter Pardon around now and the few there are haven't fallen into the professionalism-envy trap. Whereas every folk club now has its Five Song Frankies who have learned a few relatively complex songs well enough that they can turn out a performance that's an exact clone of how John Prine or Christy Moore did it, and will repeat the achievement any chance they get. If you're hearing them for the first time this can sound really good. By the tenth time you wish they'd make Sonny go away and join ISIS or something.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 19 - 09:21 AM

"How a folk Song Should be sung" tas a deliberately distorted picture of how the Critics Group worked - it was a travesty
MacColl refused to 'teach' anybody anything, he set up a 'self help' group so people could become their own Critics - and 'criticism' that went on in the meetings were oint contributions my all present - MacColl acted as a chairman
If I thought anybody was interested I'd be happy to pass on recordings of the meetings to show how they group worked, but I'm sure that would take an open-mindedness that has yet to show its head in discussions about macColl
Far easier to snide and kick
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 19 - 09:19 AM

Jim Carroll- Ewan MacColl & Peggy Seeger, the Critics Group, Ewan MacColl & Peggy Seeger & back to the Critics Group (what a pretentious name anyway) then back to Ewan MacColl & Peggy Seeger & round again

Sandman- me me me me me me
                   what a bore

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Howard Jones
Date: 10 May 19 - 06:46 AM

I am sure that the best traditional singers and musicians practised their art, and thought carefully about their songs and how best to deliver them. I thought the notion of the unspoiled, unselfconscious yokel had been dismissed long ago. It's reported that Walter Pardon stopped singing when he judged his voice was no longer good enough. Fred Jordan was constantly adding songs to his repertoire, and was not averse to learning them from revival singers, and rather cultivated his "man of the soil" image. Some were semi-professional, providing music at local events around their area for cash or other payment, rather like many folk musicians today.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 10 May 19 - 06:13 AM

But some people did get drawn in by professional standards (and political content, of course), with results that were beneficial to the field.

Here is an example:

Jim Carroll and Pat Mackenzie were brought together by the icon of the British folk revival, Ewan MacColl. During the 1950s and 1960s, when American folk music and skiffle were popular in English folk clubs, MacColl led a passionate campaign in support of indigenous folk song. Jim and Pat were both listening to jazz and blues at the time but, when they heard Ewan MacColl singing industrial ballads about British working people’s lives and emotions they were completely bowled over.

http://www.folkmusic.net/htmfiles/inart558.htm

So, in so far as the collecting done by Jim and Pat made a significant contribution, "professionalism" seems to have served a useful purpose in bringing people into the field of 'folk' albeit via 'industrial ballads'.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Iains
Date: 10 May 19 - 05:57 AM

"professionalism" can mean many things. In this context it can be broken down to two things: Money, Delivery

Some have a rare talent of delivering a song in such a way as to grab the attention of an audience. Some professionals can give a flawless performance on a recording, but live performances can suggest either they had an off day, or the sound desk massaged the recording extensively before release.
Drive, ambition, talent, luck all play a part in the transition to professional for making money.
To what extent these same factors create the gifted amateur, who knows?

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Andy7
Date: 10 May 19 - 05:53 AM

True, but sparrows are rubbish at singing! :-)

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 May 19 - 05:18 AM

I as just watching a sparrow outside my window -flying in and out of the neighbours drainpipe guttering. Its strange how sparrows manage to achieve perfection as sparrows without guidance from critics.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 May 19 - 05:02 AM

I imagine that every folk club has a few regulars who have responded to the challenge of "professionalism" by practicing a few songs to absolute perfection - so they come out exactly the same every time. They don't seem to have taken on board that real professionals are hit and run - they can do exactly the same act ten nights in succession, but it'll be to ten different audiences.

Traditional singers always had a few setpieces, but they didn't practice in front of a mirror to do the same thing regardless of the audience response as present-day floor singers with "high standards" do. Gimme somebody performing something that's just got their attention and means something to them any day, even if they have to use a sheet of words.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 May 19 - 04:31 AM

”Who would have thought that the critics group itself contributed to the decline”

I’ve always thought it. As soon as you start to introduce “‘rules’ and ‘standards’, and try to impose them on others by ‘criticism of performers/performances’, and ‘training’, you remove much of the spontaneity and inclusivity that has been the trademark of the clubs.

Not everyone can be, or even wants to be, a star - most of us just want to enjoy what we do in whatever way we do it. We’re not all frustrated superstar-wannabes.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 May 19 - 03:44 AM

Good point Pseudonymous. Interesting to think that the very act of professionalising folk music to bring it into mainstream culture added to the decline of the amateur folk club that is so lamented by some. Looks like the choice is, stick with the "dreary amateurishness" or become mainstream. Who would have thought that the critics group itself contributed to the decline... ;-)

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 10 May 19 - 03:13 AM

I am sure there is a great deal of high standard singing in many folk clubs. But I cannot help feeling that there is something 'untraditional' in an emphasis on 'standards' if we are talking about 'ordinary people' making music for their own amusement.

This emphasis on 'standards' as evidenced by one 'spectre at the feast' may be down to the approach at the critics group, which seems to me to have been a long way from 'traditional', involving as it did Stanislavsky method acting and so on. Indeed, one account says that MacColl "set about the Herculean task of trying to drag British folk music into mainstream culture. Frustrated by the dreary amateurishness of folk song performance, he decided to establish his own centre of excellence to professionalise the art."

https://carthyarchive.wordpress.com/2012/01/03/how-folk-songs-should-be-sung/

The key here is 'professionalise'.

I don't particularly object to professionalisation but let's not imagine that it is 'traditional'.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 May 19 - 12:32 PM

Al i too went to a quaker school, saffron walden and am of that persuasion

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 May 19 - 09:20 PM

yes indeed.Nadia was a wonderful talent.

I was btought up as a Quaker, so I was on board with all the young christian ethos of those Teenage Religion programmes.
I think in a way it was doomed . The Quakers brought a pamphlet called Towards a Quaker view of Sex. It said things to day are thought of as self evident. Tolerance and aceeptance of homosexuals, premarital sex not being a sin - both deeply shocking propositions for people like my parents whose faith was of a very simple nature.

I suppose 'one nation conservatism' wasn't confined to politics, and the 60's had to start sometime and sweep all that away.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 19 - 06:37 PM

Thank you Al, for reminding me of Songs of Grief and Glory and Nadia Cattouse on the BBC!

Kitty

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 May 19 - 05:03 PM

none of this alters the fact that recently on my visits to four folk clubs in england the standard of singing was high, When was the last time Jim was in a folk club in England?IN future i shall pm jim with lists of clubs that he might enjoy, like him i do not want to sit through floor singers singing cliff richard songs

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Iains
Date: 07 May 19 - 03:52 PM

Big AL. Bert Weedon was a stalwart in days of yore(influencing Eric Clapton, Paul McCartney and Brian May). Robin Hall and Jimmy Macgregor appeared extensively on BBC Television – both on the Tonight programme and on the White Heather Club. Julie Felix filled the Albert Hall and went on to the Frost report. She had her own TV show from 1968to 1970.
Folk was mainstream during this period.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 May 19 - 03:30 PM

folk in the 1960's was quite cutting edge. folk music was in the charts.
and nothing succeeds likw success.

other people want a piece of your success and want to be associated with it.

The Tonight programme featured folksingers every night, the god slot tv used to have folksong competitions about sings of social concern. there was the john pearse hold down a chord series evcourading and teaching folk guitar. the tea time local news frequently showed folk music. there were a few fairly dire tv programmes shown in the early evening - one i recall called hullaballoo.. pete seeger played sunday night at the london palladium.

it was in the air.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST,Brimbacombe
Date: 07 May 19 - 12:03 PM

I've seen more high-quality programmes about folk music and its practitioners in the past decade or so on BBC4 than I'd seen on British television in the whole of my life before that. Sky Arts shows the odd half-decent programme/concert too.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 May 19 - 11:56 AM

Mike Harding did a show as well. As did a lot of folk comedians.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 May 19 - 11:44 AM

The point of the way I characterized the Irish scene was to wind Jim up - if he knows so much about how to run a folk club and what the punters want, why isn't there an all-trad-all-the-time Carroll's Club to pull in his model-of-discernment locals? And if he doesn't see anything to worry about with the absence of Irish clubs why isn't he saying "bring on the apocalypse" about the British ones?

BTW the Spinners are the only British folk act I can remember ever seeing on TV, but then I don't watch a lot of TV. Well done them for seeing Caribbean music as part of a common tradition with that of the British Isles.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 May 19 - 11:12 AM

I must make an apology. Earlier I made the comment Unless you are referring to the Spinners TV programme and similar folk dross ;-)

I did put a wink at the end but in case anyone did not realise, I do not wish to say the Spinners were dross. In fact I believe the Spinners did a great job of bringing folk to the masses and I saw them live once or twice in Manchester. I used the term unfairly in dealing with Jim's dismissal of other music as "non-folk dross".

To the Spinners and their legions of fans, I unreservedly apologise. Mea Culpa.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Howard Jones
Date: 07 May 19 - 10:15 AM

Thanks Peter. That sounds rather similar to what we now have here in the UK, where folk clubs no longer dominate the scene but alongside them we also have house concerts, more formal concerts on both large and intimate scales, festivals large and small, and a large number of instrumental and mixed sessions, which largely go under the radar. Much as I enjoy a good folk club, I think from what you describe that the Irish situation shows that they are not essential to having a lively folk scene.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 07 May 19 - 09:47 AM

Howard, I am not sure there's a need for Jack to defend himself. I just think he shows a lack of knowledge of the situation here when he asks why the country 'got things so horribly wrong'.

I don't think the country got things 'horribly wrong'. There are singers circles, singing festivals and all sorts of places where songs are sung and plenty of venues where music is played in various formats. Things are very much alive and well.

I can think of one venue describing itself as a 'folkclub' within a reasonable distance from where I live, a club in Sixmilebridge.

But I am more at the traditional music end of things, perhaps I live sheltered from anything 'folk'.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 19 - 09:28 AM

And there were commercial/music industry links too. The 'folkways' label issued Leadbelly and Woody Guthrie and A L Lloyd.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 07 May 19 - 09:22 AM

Howard: 'blues' in early folk clubs may have been because blues was often seen in the US via a 'folkloric paradigm'. Some on the left at that time thought of blues as a sort of working class anti-establishment because it highlighted injustice, racism and so on and felt that the example might usefully be applied to 'folk' in the UK. I have simplified the view, which is controversial, but various 'blues revivals' seem to have gone alongside folk revivals, with the same people linked with these and jazz in the early days.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Howard Jones
Date: 07 May 19 - 08:32 AM

Peter, Jack can defend himself but I think his question was specifically why a fine Irish singer doesn't get booked in Irish folk clubs.

You say that things are done differently in Ireland. I would be interested to know what this means. Jim seems to believe that the British folk scene is synonymous with folk clubs, and that the decline in folk clubs means the folk scene as a whole is declining He dismisses the alternative venues which have sprung up to supplement them. You appear to be saying that folk clubs aren't an important part of the Irish folk scene.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Howard Jones
Date: 07 May 19 - 08:02 AM

If people "walked away when they turned up at folk clubs and could no longer hear folk songs" why did they not do so in the 1970s when they were filling the folk clubs, which were putting on much the same mixture of music then as they were in the 1980s. when the decline started, and as they do now. Yes that did include music hall songs, because they were fun. Were they "folk"? Probably not, but they sat well alongside folk.If people are willing to listen to long-dead folk songs why should they not also be interested in long-dead music hall songs as well? On the other hand, many clubs moved towards putting on more traditional song - I found there was a degree of polarisation with some clubs leaning towards trad and others being more contemporary.

I had the pleasure of playing as part of the "pit band" for some of the music hall evenings at Fylde Folk Festival supporting Cosmotheka and the great Sam Sherry, among others. These did not replace traditional songs, the event was just one of many and sat alongside events putting on traditional and modern folk songs. They drew good audiences, who could also be found enjoying 'real' folk at other events during the festival.

"Folk" has always been a broad church which has included a wide range of music besides the purely traditional. Even in the early days, before my time, from what I can gather the early clubs also covered a lot of different material, including Americana and blues (don't hear much of that these days).

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 May 19 - 07:45 AM

i think you'll find that most opera companies have had a crack at Oklahoma or West Side Story.

all those tenors love singing Maria.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Iains
Date: 07 May 19 - 07:35 AM

https://www.drb.ie/essays/the-people-s-music

All Music is Folk Music. I Ain’t Never Heard a Horse Sing a Song. – Louis Armstrong

Bob Davenport
Traditional music was for entertaining, it wasn’t for a further education class.”

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 07 May 19 - 07:23 AM

Are you suggesting Thomas McCarthy isn't appreciate in Ireland, Jack?

He was given a Gradam Amhránaí, possibly the highest token of appreciation given to any singer in this country.

I am not sure bookings at clubs quite measure up as a token of appreciation.

I think things are done differently in Ireland and do not feel a club system like the British one is a superior way of going about things. But don't let that get in the way of a good old rant, so carry on.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 May 19 - 06:57 AM

Anybody got any ideas as to why the folk club scene in Ireland failed so abortively? What did they get so horribly wrong in comparison with the British scene?

For one example, a singer as good as Thomas McCarthy can hardly get a booking there - almost all of his work is in England which is where he's appreciated. He probably gets as many bookings in Belgium as in Ireland.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 May 19 - 06:36 AM

the thousands who walked away when they turned up at folk clubs and could no longer hear folk songs

That is your threory, Jim.

Once again, with feeling...

The number of clubs began to decline in the 1980s, in the face of changing musical and social trends.

Is a more plausible one, in my opinion.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 19 - 06:02 AM

"I think the difficulty many of us have as that we don't see evidence of the "takeover" you allege has taken place."
Most oof "us" here Howard
Go ask the thousands who walked away when they turned up at folk clubs and could no longer hear folk songs
The stupid things if taht folk song hasn't been driven away by more commercial music - if that were the case there would be far more folk clubs and far greater audiences
Nobody is going to turn up to listen to long dead music hall songs, or Victorian Parlour Ballads, or faded and rejected pop songs - but that seems to be what has replaced many of the traditional songs
By doing whet people have done to 'folk' clubs, they have robbed folk song of its uniqueness and have failed to replace it with anything as unique homogeneous or identifiable
A trip to a folk club is a not-so Magical Mystery Tour
That helps nobody - certainly not the genuine folk song follower
Have to leave this for a few days shortly - hpe you're still around when I get back
Jim

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Howard Jones
Date: 07 May 19 - 05:42 AM

I think the difficulty many of us have as that we don't see evidence of the "takeover" you allege has taken place. You seem to believe that traditional music has been driven out of the folk clubs by more commercial music, but I for one have seen no evidence of this. The range of music I hear performed at folk clubs and other folk events seems to me to be much the same as it was when I was a regular club attender and performer more than 30 years ago. It covers a broad range, but all within what I broadly understand as "folk", Traditional music, together with modern compositions drawing strongly on transnational music, forms a large part. If I notice any difference it is fewer music hall songs and monologues.

It is perhaps true that performance styles have evolved and, especially at the professional level, have become more sophisticated. There is a danger that this can become a barrier to the music itself, although I think most performers manage to avoid this. At club level, it seems to be still mostly singer-with-guitar, so no change there.

I'm not claiming that covers of pop songs are never heard at folk clubs, but these are not representative of the typical folk club repertoire.

Likewise, I hadn't noticed any sea-change in the type of music being performed in the clubs I went to up to the time in the late 1980s when I stopped attending regularly. This is the time when the decline in the number of clubs had begun. I have already given my own reasons for no longer attending, which were due to necessity rather than choice and had nothing at all to do with the music.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 19 - 05:37 AM

"So Jim, you don't agree that a club that limited itself to traditional folk would end up like a museum? "I've said I do on numerous occasions
I've never belonged to an exclusively traditional club and teh singer I admire most wrote more contemporary songs based on traditional styles that anybody else on the scene
Putting people off is irrelevant - if people don't like folk music there's nothing much you can do about it other than to persuade them otherwise
Putting something else on to attract people in is dishonest and is doomed to failure - as is shown by the number of clubs that have disappeared or trying to do just that
Try telling the opera fraternity that they should put on Rogers and Hammerstein or Andrew Lloyd Webber if they wish to fill their venues and see how far that gets you
If instruments can enhance the songs when use to accompany - fine - some have
Others are a distraction and as such, have no place in folk song whatever
I want people to be able to listen to and appreciate the songs, now
t the wrapping
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 07 May 19 - 05:07 AM

So Jim, you don't agree that a club that limited itself to traditional folk would end up like a museum? You think this practice has never put people off? Just to clarify, you are happy with non-traditional folk being performeed at clubs? Just stuff you don't count as folk of the traditional kind or the other kind? On the basis, one supposes that folk is about universal/timeless issues and/or delivered in certain ways that count as valid 'folk' but not including the modern instruments available to ordinary people for self expression ie electric guitars? Have I got this right?

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 19 - 04:13 AM

"Traditional song nights as a stand alone would tend to put people off a bit "
Sorry Ray - not you
Who's suggested this (nt that I agree they would- they never have)
Jim

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: r.padgett
Date: 07 May 19 - 03:53 AM

With respect Jim you seem to have some issues regarding traditional music and song ~ I would say that as with the so called Revival of the late 1960s traditional song and contemporary songs as well to some extent the blues and Americana contributed to an evenings entertainment ~trad song and shanties all made a folk clubs (or any gathering) song quota night

Traditional song nights as a stand alone would tend to put people off a bit ~particularly those not well versed ~ this from me is my English point of view course

Ray

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 19 - 03:42 AM

"Since when does dedicating it to someone famous mean it's going to be any good? "
These are dedicted to who they are, not because they are "famous" Jack but for their contribution to traditional music
You seem to have a thing about "fame" on the British scene
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Andy7
Date: 07 May 19 - 03:39 AM

I enjoy both Caesar Salad and Waldorf Salad.

But it has to be said, the Caesar Salad has nothing that can directly compare with those walnuts.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 19 - 02:58 AM

"MacColl and those around him were not antiquarians who claimed that only folk songs should be performed on the scene - on the contrary, the argument was always that if this happened the clubs would be no more than museums."
Has anybody heer said otherwise ?
If not, why raise it ?

"The only thing that's unique about it is that the people involved are under the impression they're unique. "
The unique thing about it is that it is a week-long school to pass on traditional music and song to several thousand people annually
It has led the massive change in the fortunes o Irish music and been part of attracting many young peopple onto the scene - it has helped gurantee an at least two-generation future for Irish traditional music
It has not wavered from doing this for forty eight years
It's also a living monument to one of Ireland's finest traditional musicians
Stop being a begrudger Jack and give me a comparison in these islands - I doubt if there is anything to compare in England
This is little more than mean-minded spitefulness aimed a well-meaning and highly successful, non-commercial musical activity - sour grapes
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 May 19 - 02:56 AM

You're right, Nick. Did you get to Skipton last night? After I got home from the May celebrations I just put my feet up and ruined folk music by watching Game of Thrones :-)

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 May 19 - 02:42 AM

All i was trying to say was that folk clubs i haveplayed at recently including norwich , wilsons club, and ryburn had a high standard of singing

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 May 19 - 08:19 PM

I was a great admirer of the recently deceased Alan Bell.

I attended several of his folkus weekends where you could do all kinds of folksinging and instrumental courses over a weekend. Alan made a wonderful contribution to folk music in England. A great man.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 06 May 19 - 07:40 PM

If it wasn't so bizarre it would be funny.   Anyone want to re-evaluate my post on April 28th?
Quod Erat Demonstrandum

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 06 May 19 - 02:31 PM

MacColl and those around him were not antiquarians who claimed that only folk songs should be performed on the scene - on the contrary, the argument was always that if this happened the clubs would be no more than museums.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 19 - 02:19 PM

've listed them Dave - don't remember ever Hearing the Spinners on the media - the occasional tele appearance

Don#t remember much then obviously!

They produced over forty albums, and made numerous concerts and TV appearances. In 1970, they were given their own television show on BBC One that ran for seven years. They also had their own show on BBC Radio 2. They retired in 1988, after thirty years together