BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 May 04 - 04:48 PM

...just four words with a question mark after it (Jim)

Jim, are you stupid?
(just four words with a question mark after it)

Wolfgang (not meaning the nasty implication, just asking for the sake of the argument)

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 28 May 04 - 02:01 PM

To disagree with words of personal attack are unnecessary and imflammatory and can be damaging to the "victim". Why be nasty...prove your point!!! don't belittle your opponent or challenger. I believe that our nastiness reveals more about us as individuals than about the people we attack.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 May 04 - 01:52 PM

Well, McGrath, we can all agree on some things....


"Of course that could be true of a great numnber of members, including me, and on the whole I'm glad the facility isn't available. Better to do the filtering ourselves as we go through the threads.

Here's a quote from a post made by a new member, Rabbi-Sol:

The wonderful thing about this forum is that we can discuss the issues as rational human beings, with mutual respect, even though many of us are on opposite sides of the issue. It is a lot better than shooting bullets and grenades at each other.

Amen. "

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 May 04 - 01:37 PM

you all read my posts so I guess that I am doing just fine in that department

If we had a filtering system which would filter out posts credited to individual members, I am afraid that a lot of people would probably use it to filter out Martin Gibson's posts.

Of course that could be true of a great numnber of members, including me, and on the whole I'm glad the facility isn't available. Better to do the filtering ourselves as we go through the threads.

Here's a quote from a post made by a new member, Rabbi-Sol:

The wonderful thing about this forum is that we can discuss the issues as rational human beings, with mutual respect, even though many of us are on opposite sides of the issue. It is a lot better than shooting bullets and grenades at each other.

Amen.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Once Famous
Date: 28 May 04 - 01:01 PM

Guest, I don't need to justify anything to you. You don't know me and obviously know one here knows you. You know so much about Hitler, maybe you are related to him. Wouldn't doubt it. Most people who quote Hitler to Jews are indeed Jew haters themselves.

McGrath, i don't have any misunderstanding with Jack the Sailor. I understand all to well that he is a dorface anti-American puke face. It's very obvious to me. No misunderstanding on my part. And
As for getting my point across, you all read my posts so I guess that I am doing just fine in that department. Keep reading Ebbie. Sorry you were so disappointed in finding out the truth. Must have been hard to take as you are probably one of the only Amish currently using a computer.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 04 - 04:41 AM

Martin Gibson, the fact you live in a mixed community does not make you immune to bigotry. Cities around the globe have been the sites of racial discord time and time again. Didn't Hitler start his career of agitation in a nice big city, and we all know how he ended up.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 04 - 05:16 PM

No excuse for that

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 04 - 12:41 AM

There's that "AA" word again ---- Anti-American

McCarthy come back ..... we need your clarification on a few things.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 May 04 - 06:44 PM

Coming out in a purple-faced rage spitting out insults isn't always the best way to deal with a situation where other people may disagree with us on some point.

If someone accuses me of being a bigot that indicates that they don't like bigots. If I am not bigot, that means that we are essentially in agreement some very important things, but that there has been a misunderstanding that needs to be cleared up. "Dorkface anti-American puke faces" isn't, I suggest, entirely the most effective way of clearing up such a misunderstanding.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 26 May 04 - 06:20 PM

I always found that the most inadequate people resorted to name calling!!! Usually as they cannot handle the pressures of good communication. Getting ones point across is a good exercise but lowering oneself to name calling.....sad.
Be Blessed all.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 May 04 - 06:02 PM

Martin Gibson, your flailing is pathetic.

I don't think I'm anti-Semitic, incidentally- until I was 9 or so, I thought I and my family were Jews. My mother said, in astonishment, Whatever gave you that idea??

Near tears I stammered, I thought we were God's Chosen People. We wouldn't wear clothes like this if we weren't, would we?

I was Amish.

Back to your reasoning: If I were newly hatched, knowing nothing about conflicts, I would be not only taken aback by your bitter vehemence and the hatred you spew but I would certainly not be drawn to the cause you espouse. You, friend, are a one-trick pony. Honor your people, yes; work against anyone else ever considering implementing such an obscene plan, yes; (We are on your side, dammit) but someone gave you a bum steer when they told you this is the way to go.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Once Famous
Date: 26 May 04 - 05:46 PM

Jack the Sailor

It is Arab Moslem fanatacs because that is what it is, jerko. It's not any other kind of fanatic or as you say just plain old fanatics.

As far as being a bigot you are such an idiot. You can't live in a big melting pot like Chicago and be a bigot. I work with and have neighbors of all creeds and nationalities. I have no problem with them.

I do have problems with dorkface anti-American puke faces like you who seem to blame Jews for much of their own problems and inadequecies in life.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 26 May 04 - 04:13 PM

I think in Missouri, they just say Show Me.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 May 04 - 04:09 PM

Still seems pretty simple to me - "I don't believe you are right. So convince me" A very reasonable attitude to have when someone tells you something that seems unlikely to be true.

It can be dangerous to fill in the gaps in what someone says with what we think they might be saying.

There's a story of two kings. One sent a letter to the other - but in the course of the journey the letter got damaged, so it read "Send me a team of your finest white horses - or else..."

The second king was a bit surprised at this. "That sounds like a threat to me" and he sent a letter back.

And the post got damaged this time as well, and when it rreached the first king it said "I have not got any white horses - if I did have any..." And the king got angry. "I sent him a polite request, and I get back this letter saying he wouldn't give me any horses even if he had them."

And the upshot was a terrible war. And eventually they fought each other to a standstill, and they had a peace negotiation.

"Why did you send that threatening letter?" said the first king - "Send me a team of your finest white horses - or else..."

The second king looked amazed. "I didn't send you a threatening letter. What I wrote was 'Please could you send me a team of your white horses - or else any other colour would do, if you can spare them'. And then I got your angry letter 'I have not got any white horses - if I did have any..."

And the second king looked embarrassed "But it wasn't a angry letter. What I wrote was "I have not got any white horses - if I did have any of course I would be happy to send you as many as you want."

And they both looked embarrassed.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 26 May 04 - 03:58 PM

Now you all are splitting hairs.

Yes, there are stupid books out there, and people actually read them. It could possibly be that the book is required reading to show the WRONG way of thinking. A contrary book, if you will.

Just an idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 26 May 04 - 03:31 PM

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, Wolfgang.

'Who told you this', on the other hand, are just four words with a question mark after it.

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 May 04 - 02:37 PM

"What's your evidence" or "where from did you get this information" are completely different questions from "Who told you this".

The target question did presuppose that the poster did not come to the opinion by studying different sources, by comparing different accounts, or perhaps even by personal experience, however questionable personal experience might be. It implied that the poster came to this opinion simply by being told. The poster is seen in this formulation as a passive recipient of information unable to think critically.

I grant, dianavan, that the question may have been formulated without these implications in mind, but when SJ called it a low shot it might have been an indication that the question can be read differently from how it was intended.

My only intention in my post was to point out that calling this question 'simple' was wrong.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Metchosin
Date: 25 May 04 - 11:22 PM

also Chief Chaos, the article refers to The John F Kennedy Special Warfare Center at Fort Bragg. Army, is it not?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Metchosin
Date: 25 May 04 - 09:40 PM

Chief Chaos, the information came from here and apparently Hersh mentioned it in his New Yorker magazine article.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 25 May 04 - 09:05 PM

Wolfgang - I'm not sophisticated enough to ask a presuppositional question. I was dismayed by what he thought was truth and was curious to know where he/she got that information. Given the kid just returned from a hellish war, I didn't want to tell him/her that his/her facts were misguided or wrong. I just wanted to know the source. It was a simple question that could be asked in many different ways - depends on the intonation. Since you can't hear the tone of my voice, I think you are jumping to conclusions about my intent.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,Buddhist helpline
Date: 25 May 04 - 05:24 PM

What anyone says about this..none of what has happened, which causes hurt or anguish to anyone else is necessary. No Country's residents can be forgiven for doing any of the things mentioned. No politician can be praised for condoning such atrocities.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 May 04 - 04:39 PM

I think "Who told you this?" and "Where are you getting your information? are essentially interchangeable questions. "Give me some reason why I should believe what you have just said.

When a new acquaintance tells us something which is inconsistent with what we have previously believed to be the truth, I think that it is the right response to ask for some kind of evidence. Or should be believe anything and everything we are told without question?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 May 04 - 02:02 PM

Who told you this? (dianavan)

I asked a simple question (dianavan)
(it) was a valid question (Ebbie)
dianavan asked a simple question (McGrath)

No, she didn't. She asked a presuppositional question which starts with an implicit assumption but asks for something else. Asking a presuppositional question is a fine instrument to derail a political (or other) discussion and shows that the person asked isn't taken serious. That was the start and even singing 'simple question' in chorus doesn't make it a simple question.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 25 May 04 - 01:49 PM

Metchosin,

I have just reviewed the "Required Reading List" for the U.S Naval Academy and West Point Military Academy. Neither have "The Arab Mind" listed. I was unable to find the list for the Air Force Academy but the library only lists two copies of the book at different locations. Where are you getting your information?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 May 04 - 01:25 PM

sorry.

Free elections are a good idea. But there needs to be some basic framework- do we want simple majority rule- 50.1 % get to murder the other 49.9%? IMO, the Iraqis should have whatever government they want- BUT The Kurds should have a chance at an independent state, regardless of Turkey's view on the matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 May 04 - 01:21 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 May 04 - 01:17 PM

All this hate and derision because dianavan asked a simple question "Who told you that?"

I still think the rant post was a fake.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 04 - 11:53 AM

Dianavan - he heard you!

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 25 May 04 - 11:51 AM

dianavan - you're clever so go figure. The hand's up now, for good. Rage on, I can't hear you.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 04 - 11:39 AM

Oooh, good trap. If he responds, you're clearly NOT talking to the hand. I shall wait eagerly.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 25 May 04 - 11:10 AM

Strollin Johnny - What does that mean? Talkin to the hand?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 May 04 - 09:17 AM

Fanatics come in all religious shapes and sizes. Timothy McVeigh was a Christian, and so were a lot of other people who have been responsible for atrocities. In the same way, there have been Jewish fanatics, Mormons, Sikh and Atheist fanatics. Even Buddhist fanatics, though perhaps not quite so many. Sometimes the motivation has been from their understanding of their religion, sometimes for other reasons.

.........................

"...it is imperative that we make sure, in the implementation of free elections, that we make absolutely sure that the elections are fair." A good start for that might be to make absolutely sure not to allow anyone associated with George Bush near them.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 25 May 04 - 09:00 AM

Dianavan, you're still talking drivel, and from now on you're talking to the hand.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 May 04 - 10:39 PM

Martin Gibson,

The issue isn't that they are Arab Muslim Fanatics It's that they are Fanatics. For example you are a Guitar Liking Bigot. The issue is that you are a bigot, not that you like guitars.

I believe that ignorant bigotry like yours, is what allows George and the Chickenhawks to present Iraq as a solution to the problem presented by Al Qaeda.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 May 04 - 08:01 PM

El Grecko

No, I do not believe Iraqui's flew planes into the twin towers. That's obvious.

I do believe though that Arab Muslim fanatics flew the planes into the twin towers. I also believe Arab Muslim fanatics are a major problem in Iraq.


dianavan

Your instructions to Strollin' Johnny to tell the same thing to me is another version of your tapdancing bullshit. If you are going to dish it out, take it like a man. Please seek counseling for your self admitted anger and depression.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 24 May 04 - 08:00 PM

Dianavan...as quoted to Strollin Johnny.

"I witheld my feelings and will choose to do so if I wish. You are not in charge of my feelings or my words".

How does one withold feelings...what you feel at any one time is what you feel. You may withold expression of your feelings....which seems to be anger at the time as I see it. Also who is in charge of your feelings??? as you put it.
Should you be spending so much time on Mudcat? I suspect you will give yourself an ulcer if not careful. Please be careful with your health...no point in ruining it on here.
Be Blessed.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 May 04 - 03:48 PM

People's biases certainly show through in this thread, and that is natural.

First off, let me assure you that this guy is not Special Forces. It takes a certain level of knowledge, and no Special Forces Operator would postulate that Iraq had anything to do with 9/11. My guess is that this person perceives himself as patriotic, and does not see the sin in passing misinformation in pursuit of his political views. Either that or completely incapable of understanding that he is in the thrall of the propaganda masters of the administration.

Iraqui's don't hate us because they hate freedom. They hate us because we are acting like only we have the ability to give them the gift of freedom. They hate us because we don't see that they are not us. They hate us because, despite professing the belief in democracy, we are not willing to let them choose the leadership and style of representation that suits them. In short they hate us for being paternalistic and self serving.

Having said that, it is imperative that we make sure, in the implementation of free elections, that we make absolutely sure that the elections are fair. Further, given that we have destroyed any infrastructure that existed, we must provide the security needed to insure that the myriad factions there don't run wild. That is the difficult one. Doing that without becoming the oppressor will be very difficult. It did not have to be this way. But Gung Ho Dubya, in his very best John Wayne imitation, went running in there without a plan or the troops to implement order. He was so sure that folks would just love to be like us, he missed the critical detail. And that was that there are many vested interests and diverse views of what Allah wants.

Simply put, we did not have to do this. We have muffed it from the start, and now find ourselves in a very tough position. I am mightily saddened for the deaths, and for the psychological trauma that the returning vet's will face when we leave. Reminds me of another time...........

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 24 May 04 - 03:30 PM

Didn't they have a book like that about the Japanese during the 2nd World War?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 24 May 04 - 02:28 PM

Metchosin - Thanks for that link. It explains alot about the mindset of the U.S. military. It also explains why the U.S. soldiers refer to Arabs as "sand niggers". I am thoroughly disgusted.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Metchosin
Date: 24 May 04 - 01:37 PM

dianavan, perhaps jwt read the book The Arab Mind which is used as a US military primer. Some of his viewpoints certainly have a similar stench and the book has been deemed an easy read. It is of no surprise that US military "intelligence" has veered so far off the mark at times, when they have based their understanding of their "enemy" upon such drivel.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 24 May 04 - 01:28 PM

Strollin johnny - I am no angry about jwp's post. If anything, I think its pathetic.

I am angry about alot of things going on in the world today. Its either that or depression. There is nothing wrong with feeling angry, its a real emotion. Depends on how you express it that matters.

I get real angry with men who try to silence women by denying their emotions. Especially when they attribute negative emotion to an innocent question. I'd say you have the problem, Johnny, speak for yourself instead of trying to protect an ignorant poster. Like I said before, it the poster really believes what he/she wrote, somebody has to set their mind right. I certainly would not want to see that kind of misinformation repeated.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 24 May 04 - 11:13 AM

And now, as I seem to be the only one with an ounce of sympathy for that poor sod, I'm gonna get on with something that matters. Like painting my fence.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 24 May 04 - 11:08 AM

Precisely Kim. I thought that's what I'd said (but in a lot more words)?
Greg, I didn't say jwp's in possession of the truth (indeed are any of us?), and I was at pains to say that I disagree strongly with a great deal of what was said in his/her post. I simply feel that, having actually been there (if the statement's genuine, and we have no proof either way so I think we should assume it is), jwp's views may well be heavily influenced by what he/she's actually gone through, unlike us teachers/accountants/lawyers/truck-drivers/part-time moose-hunters/unemployed musicians/failed stand-up comedians etc., who just sat on our fat arses at home, drinking beer, spouting off and making up rules as we go along about what should and shouldn't be. From that angle at least, the guy surely deserves a hearing? And a pile of sympathy.
J :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 24 May 04 - 10:18 AM

I wouldn't say someone who's been there necessarily has The Truth - just that they may have a different perspective on things.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 May 04 - 09:21 AM

Sorry there, Johnny Martin & Co, but you're operating under the fallacy that all opinions are equally valid, and the further fallacy that simply because someone has "been there" they are necessarily in possession ot "The Truth". Nonsense.

Some opinions can be supported by evidence & objective fact, others not.

The statement in question- whether "genuine" or planted disinformation- is still utter crap.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 24 May 04 - 07:02 AM

You're full of anger Dianavan - it's dangerous to your health, seek help.
Best wishes,
John :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 04 - 09:23 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 23 May 04 - 09:09 PM

I don't know if jwp's post is for real or not, but I think it's fair to say that anyone who has actually been to the war zone is going to have a very different viewpoint than someone who hasn't.

I also think it's fair to say that some of the Muslim extremists dislike America because of the freedoms we offer our citizens, especially women. We let women go to school, have jobs, drive cars, and walk around with their heads (and lots of other body parts) uncovered. Those ideas are incompatible with some of the extremely religious views some Muslims hold.

I was going to say something else but I got distracted & lost my train of thought...

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 23 May 04 - 06:18 PM

Strollin Johnny - Why don't you let jwp answer for himself/herself? I guess you missed the posts where I mentioned a brother and husband who served in Vietnam. I can easily imagine my brother writing such a letter when he returned. I have no reason to believe jwp's post is insincere.

If jwp believes the iraqis flew planes into the twin towers or that they hate us because of our freedom then he needs to get his mind set straight. I wasn't sure if this was something he learned from the Iraqis or from govt. propaganda being shoved down his/her throat. Perhaps this is just another cultural belief - military culture, that is. Which just goes to prove my point (in another post) about the educational and economic level of the people who have been sucked into fighting this war.

Strollin Johnny - I assume that if he's/she's old enough to serve in the military he's/she's old enough to speak for himself. Please don't patronize and do not tell me how I should or shouldn't express myself. It was a straight question.

And by the way, do you really think a person who served in Iraq needs to be protected from me? If I had no respect or sympathy for jwp, my words would have been very harsh indeed. How dare you insinuate the tone of the question? You've never heard my voice and you do not know my feelings.

I witheld my feelings and will choose to do so if I wish. You are not in charge of my feelings or my words so go tell the same thing to Martin and see how far you get.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 May 04 - 04:04 PM

As I said, that post could be genuine. Of course, to be effective as black propaganda, it would need to persuade people that it was genuine. I thought it was a bit over the top for that.