BS: Brexit & other UK political topics

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Mr Red
Date: 12 Nov 20 - 04:13 AM

At best, as a nation, we waver between Centre and Slightly Left of Centre,

But we waver ever more. Steadfastly refusing to sit the fence - Aren't We?
In cosmic terms (Donuel help me out here) the LibDems are an unstable Lagrange Point - very apt, "near two large bodies circling each other".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Nov 20 - 03:58 AM

the uk and the irish governments should introduce free school milk and free school dinners, children should not have to go to school hungry. well done rashford.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Nov 20 - 03:48 AM

Looks like the lovely Tories are at it again - employing the language of the Alt-Right movement in the US, invoking the expression ‘Cultural Marxism’, described as ‘a conspiracy theory with an anti-Semitic twist’, and protesting against the opening-up of the many untold truths lurking in the darker recesses of our cultural history.

I wonder when the Daily Fail, the Scum, and the Ex-Press will begin a barrage of accusations of ‘anti-semitism’ against them?

I won’t hold my breath.

Subject: BS: lord Kilclooney
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 04:33 AM

Earlier this week, Lord Kilclooney - a Member of the House of Lords - posted a message on his social media that has been roundly slammed as racist. In a series of messages about US Vice President-elect Kamala Harris, he demanded to know what happens if “the Indian” becomes president.

Despite the outrage his message caused, he has refused to recognise the damage it did. He even defended himself by saying that, as a landlord, he has Indian tenants (!). Harris’ election as Vice-President was a historic victory, but Lord Kilclooney’s comments have made headlines across the world - sending a dangerous and false message of the kind of country we are.

Frustratingly, he’s got form for this. He tweeted something similar about Irish Taoiseach Leo Varadkar in 2018, and has also been slammed for similarly racist messages about cricketer Moeen Ali.

That’s why Act Now, a campaigning organisation in Northern Ireland, has launched a petition - to show that these are not our values and we won’t tolerate him acting this way in our name.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Nov 20 - 02:26 AM

politicians are puppets their power is limited the real power is with multi national coporations, here is asong by ma reynolds
.Come sit down beside me before the big T.V.
And watch the funny pictures they have there to look at,
Shampoo for your hair and the last polar bear,
And the man on the moon who was walking around
Then left, leaving junk on the once virgin ground.

There's old timey movies with old fashioned dresses,
The kidnap of babies and other such messes,
There's football and baseball and guys selling cars,
And then there's The Man in the Mask.

Chorus:
They say it's his face, but I just can't believe it.
It looks like a mask that I saw in the store.
It talks with deep feeling about ending some war
And stopping inflation, and it's so fantastic,
You'll cry while you're laughing, and roll on the floor.

Every four years he puts a new mask on.
Each one is worse than the one he had before,
But the words are the same and the same earnest manner,
About ending inflation and stopping the war.

The sponsors paid out a million of millions
To get him up there with his magic routine,
But it's really a bargain, 'cause there's such a margin
In war and inflation and the big T.V. screen
That gives us The Man in the Mask.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Nov 20 - 02:00 AM

What the ‘Corbyn/Foot Analogy’ demonstrates, for those willing to look, listen, and learn, is that the UK does not have, and never has had, a natural inclination towards being or becoming a Socialist State. At best, as a nation, we waver between Centre and Slightly Left of Centre, and no amount of stamping their feet, throwing themselves on the floor, and thcweaming and thcweaming until they’re sick by the Corbyn-supporters will change that.

Even Churchill acknowledged that “Jaw-jaw is better than war-war”. Why can’t the LP get their heads around that simple fact too?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Nov 20 - 06:44 PM

Especially in reference to the Corbyn/Foot analogy I have long been saying "History repeats itself, it has to because no one is listening.

And that applies on grander scales - if you don't like horror stories don't read this prediction History repeats itself. That’s bad news for the 2020s - the article is upbeat only in that we can solve the impending problem "if we choose".

But as with the LP - ya can't solve problems while ya shouting at each other over how to solve the problem. The LP's problem being - how to get to be in a position of power.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Nov 20 - 02:21 PM

I am still inclined to suspect extremist ideological factions of the tories
are determined to exploit covid as an opportunist covert lethal weapon,
targeting the teaching profession...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Nov 20 - 12:30 PM

I’m sure you make a very valid point, Steve. Nothing this bunch of nasty, greedy, lying crooks do surprises me any more.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Nov 20 - 09:15 AM

"I’m convinced the Tories are actually using COVID, and manipulating the crisis, as a means of distracting the public’s attention away from the disaster (for most of us ordinary Joes and Janes - Johnson and his cronies themselves will do very well from it) of the crash-out, no-EU-trade-deal Brexit they’re heading us for at the end of the year."

I think it's that but much more as well. Who'd have thought a year ago that a government in a democracy could ORDER people to stay at home almost at the drop of a hat, or tell us that we can't have our families to stay over, or force us to wear masks? Once these edicts are enforced it makes it far easier for the government to do things like it again, under who-knows-what circumstances in the future. It isn't just a brexit diversion, it's a power-grab, and it's all the more frightening when you consider who it is who's grabbing the power.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Nov 20 - 06:14 AM

now now do not be dogmatic.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Nov 20 - 05:52 AM

My oft-repeated belief is that “anyone who loves dogs can’t be all bad”, but I’m prepared to make an exception...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Nov 20 - 05:32 AM

Bonzo , i admire your love of dogs ,but that is the best that i can say

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Nov 20 - 05:05 AM

Well Bonzo, if your idea of fun is posting inane comments on an obscure forum there isn't really much hope for you is there.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Nov 20 - 04:27 AM

Dave, I’m convinced the Tories are actually using COVID, and manipulating the crisis, as a means of distracting the public’s attention away from the disaster (for most of us ordinary Joes and Janes - Johnson and his cronies themselves will do very well from it) of the crash-out, no-EU-trade-deal Brexit they’re heading us for at the end of the year.

But people keep telling me, “Boris is a great bloke and he’s doing a brilliant job!”.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 01 Nov 20 - 03:59 AM

No Dave the Gnome, I like fun!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Nov 20 - 03:41 AM

before systems can change people have to change, some of the posters should take a good look at themselves

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 06:43 PM

You really are desperate to get people to look the other way aren't you Bonzo. Trouble is it stopped working once Boris got what he wanted. No one is interested now that they know they backed the wrong horse. Boris is digging his own grave. As well as thousands of others, killing the economy and burying the last shreds of respect England had.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 06:24 PM

‘Suspendered’? Oooohh Matron! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 06:23 PM

Not me...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 06:02 PM

Nigel Parsons - they have got the hump because their beloved terrorist hugging Corbyn has been suspendered from the labour party!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 05:51 PM

... irrelevant without a....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 05:45 PM

The worst that can be laid at the door of the government is a failure to prevent deaths. And even that is arguable. If the virus is going to be endemic then the best the government can do is to delay some of the deaths 
I am not sure I would agree there, Nigel, unless you are invoking the truism that we will all die eventually. Every death delayed is potentially a life saved when we eventually get a vaccine. So I would argue that not overwhelming the NHS is not an ambitious enough target. You should be aiming to have the level low enough that most non-covid NHS treatments can continue and the number who die is as low as possible while we await a vaccine.

And actually the 'Whack-a-mole' strategy could have done that if it was not simply used as an amusing quip. It is essentially what New Zealand has done: get the number of cases really low, then put as many resources as you can muster into a serious detect, test, trace and isolate effort. Testing is irrelevant with effective isolation so this concentration on numbers of tests without the rest is pointless.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 04:36 PM

So Bozzer, after ignoring his scientific advisers for weeks, has now decided we need a lockdown and released the news via an unknown leak. Hmmmm. Good timing Bozzer. Wait until the furlough scheme finishes. Don't lock schools and universities down. Cock things up again. Cause more deaths.
In case you haven't seen the news yet, the "furlough" scheme has been extended.
And, once again, the government is not causing deaths. That is the virus. The worst that can be laid at the door of the government is a failure to prevent deaths. And even that is arguable. If the virus is going to be endemic then the best the government can do is to delay some of the deaths in order to prevent the NHS from being overwhelmed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 03:50 PM

Dave, odds on the Tories will survive because, as I pointed out above, they stick together in public even when they’re in the shit and squabbling like a troop of monkeys in private.

Labour, however, kick each other’s bollocks very publicly. If they split, and I reckon that’s a very strong possibility, we’re bolloxed - Tory governments for ever.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 02:16 PM

So Bozzer, after ignoring his scientific advisers for weeks, has now decided we need a lockdown and released the news via an unknown leak. Hmmmm. Good timing Bozzer. Wait until the furlough scheme finishes. Don't lock schools and universities down. Cock things up again. Cause more deaths.

To those who believed December was the end of the Labour party. How do you rate your lots chances after this?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 02:01 PM

Of course to the retired and not working, lockdown will make little difference, but to the retired and still working like myself of course, it will make some difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 07:41 AM

Similarly the ‘Britain and its fish’ thread (opened by the same person as this one)?

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 07:40 AM

”UK politics, surely.”

I’d agree with that, Dave. I was wondering why someone opened a separate thread - perhaps a kind Mod might combine it with the main U.K. Politics thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Acorn4
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 07:34 AM

I would agree with the above and unfortunately "Left Unity" seems to be an oxymoron.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 07:31 AM

UK politics, surely.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 06:56 AM

It gives me no pleasure to say it, but the LP are fast becoming the ‘Jeremy Kyle Party’ - behaving exactly like the ‘Waynes and Waynettas’ who go on that god-forsaken waste of broadcasting-time to have their spitting, swearing, handbags-at-twenty-paces fights in full view of anyone and everyone who cares to tune in. Just one more factor in ensuring their own un-electability.

When will they take a leaf from the Tories’ book, and understand the importance of The Golden Rule - ‘Have your fights in private, but present a united front to the public’? I have no problem with internal differences in the party being argued and debated, but there’s a time and place for it, and in public in the press and on prime time TV aren’t it.

Very, very sad but absolutely the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Long Firm Freddie
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 06:44 AM

The report (all 130 pages) is online here:

Report

LFF

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 06:35 AM

I laugh!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Mr Red
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 06:28 AM

I predicted Corbyn would be a latter-day Michael Foot. And apart from his concentration on Arab/Muslim issues at the expense of Jewish ones it was an apt analogue.

Sacking him is putting out a message. Unfortunately, the message is not in Starmer's hands. It is in the minds of Corbynites. Was it ever thus?

Frank Field, at least, showed contrition over his championing of an underdog. Sometimes, they are underdogs for a reason. History has spoken. Twice, resoundingly. And do we listen?

FWIW Frank Field would have made a better figurehead for the party. But he maybe realised his skills lay elsewhere.
On the basis of one TV clip I thought Andy Burnham would have made a good head honcho, purely from his screen presence, but recent events have only confirmed my opinion. Cursory as it is. Maybe he is eyeing the top of the greasy pole.
And they picked the wrong Milliband IMNSHO.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 06:12 AM

Absolutely with you there, Acorn.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Acorn4
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 05:16 AM

Just wondering if you are playing into the hands of the right wing here, and is getting left leaning members to resign is all part of the scheme .

It's obviously a very personal decision but I've decided to stay in the party and watch what happens.

My opinion of Starmer btw is that he is just Ed Miliband in a more expensive suit.

Subject: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 05:08 AM

I have resigned membership from the labour party.
My Stepmother was jewish , her parents escaped from nazi germany in 1936. I concur With CORBYN about exagerration

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 03:48 AM

I think you are right DMcG. "Look! Labour antisemitism!" was already wearing thin as a distraction. By the side of Boris's mis-management of the virus it just sounds stupid. Of course some people will still be fooled . As witnessed here.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 07:11 PM

Reports are coming in of a strict national lockdown to be announced on Monday, effective from Wednesday.

If so, I think Labour and the ECHR is going to disappear from the front pages even faster than I predicted, and Johnson would be well advised to leave it out of PMQs unless he really wants to look detached from people's concerns.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 02:36 PM

The problem is that they did concern themselves with the other cases as they went ahead and reported them. They are either significant, in which case they need to detail them, or they are not significant, in which case don't report them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 02:19 PM

The exact quote is here:
This is by no means the full extent of the issues we identified within the files in our sample; it represents the tip of the iceberg. We also saw:
• A further 18 ‘borderline’ cases. In these cases, there was not enough evidence to conclude that the Labour Party was legally responsible for the conduct of the individual. These were people such as local councillors, local election candidates and Constituency Labour Party office holders.
• In many more files, evidence of antisemitic conduct by an ‘ordinary’ member of the Labour Party. These members did not hold any office or role, therefore the Labour Party could not be held directly responsible for their conduct under the Equality Act 2010.

In light of our position as a regulator, we only made findings of unlawful conduct in cases that were sufficiently clear-cut, in Equality Act 2010 and Human Rights Act 1998 terms. We explain this in Chapter 3


So they saw cases, but restricted themselves to ones that were 'clear cut' and for which the party was legally responsible.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 02:00 PM

I find that an official body suggesting it is the tip of the iceberg without going into detail quite alarming. It sounds like a Daily Heil headline.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 01:07 PM

I would not go quite that far, Dave. They did identify a few cases and said this was "the tip of the iceberg" - but most of the other 18(?) cases they looked at in detail were by people that the Labour Party did not have legal responsibility for, or it was unclear what capacity these people were speaking in. Having said that, they also stressed other parties had similar issues.

I put the question mark after the 18 because that figure was mentioned but there are other complaints and I would need to double check the status of these 18.

The cases that they referenced, though, were often to illustrate where the process had fallen short.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 12:47 PM

Thanks for a good synopsis DMcG. It does seem to confirm the conclusions I drew from the "front page". Labour did have problems with handling antisemitism complaints but as for antisemitism itself it seems that the commission have either not investigated that or not found anything to worry them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 08:29 AM

OK, I have eventually got round to finishing the document - it did have to fit in with other things I had to do, you know!

One of the things that I got out of it which doesn't seem to be coming across as much in the media it is rather less about what the level of anti-Semitism in the Labour party is, as the lack of a clear mechanism to decide and then deal with it. The media is very much about how much anti-Semitism there is or is not in the Labour party, the rows between Starmer and Corbyn, Hodge, Abbott and others. On my reading, that is not really what the report is about at all.   It is much more what are the procedures in place to identify anti-Semitism in the first place (including how clear is the definition, and why, for example, no definition is in the Labour Rule book so all members can know it.) Once a possible anti-Semitic case is identified, how well-defined is the process to handle it, and whether this process is truly independent, or is it subject to political interference.

So for example, they point out the training given to people to identify anti-Semitism is 'academic, not practical.' I presume that means there insufficient case studies where the real world complexities can be seen.   Another example that worries the authors are comments from the Leaders office whether they think an act serious enough to investigate which may override the formal process (and there are examples where it expressed a view both against and in favour of proceeding.) Other Leader's Office comments referred to the timing of the investigations.

In the political world, the temptation to interfere in that way will inevitably be huge. The report is quite clear it is always unacceptable - the procedures must be followed rigorously and independently. It is interesting to notice yesterday Starmer has clearly taken this on board. When the press pressured him to say Corbyn must be suspected, he followed the report to not express a view. Later, when Corbyn had been suspended he stressed that it was the formal processes that suspended Corbyn and he supported both their right to make the decision and the decision itself. Their remains some doubt about the exact rules under which Corbyn was suspended, but it is not Starmer's responsibility to say.
Yet another thing they were concerned about was the appointment of Thomas Gardiner from the Labour leader's office into the body responsible for initial investigations. The at the very least ran the risk of political interference and in their words "undermined confidence in the complaint handling process and, in particular, its independence."


In my opinion, it is a well written report and the recommendations it makes are both sensible and can be implemented in practice in a comparatively short time.   Labour has a legal responsibility to state its plans for addressing the points within a few weeks, and I have little doubt that it will confirm its intentions to fully adopt them.

I also have little doubt the Tories will keep poking at this particular hornets nest, as will some of Corbyn's backers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 07:28 AM

When can we expect the results of the enquiry into this Unholy alliance?

I'll not hold my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 06:57 AM

Very relevant - will hippy abbott be next!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 06:27 AM

And that is relevant to the discussion because..?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 06:19 AM

Who would you look to for legal advice?
1. A barrister who advanced far enough to become the Director of Public Prosecutions.
2. A bunch of disorganised hippies who couldn't win an election against a Sesame Street character who hid in a fridge.