BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 04:22 PM

If the UN decides that there was targetting of civilians--understand that to me the intentional targetting of civilians with the intent to kill them specifically--the first letter I send will be to Israel calling the IDF a bunch of fucking butchers.

However, that's to find out. I think some of you here have no bloody morals at all. You pass over intentional targetting by Hezbollah of Israeli citizens like it means nothing. For those of you who do, a pox on your house.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 04:18 PM

Old Guy-

If Hezbollah wants civilians to be killed by Israel, in order to serve their propaganda interests, why do you suppose Israel is so stupid as to comply with this wish of Hezbollah?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Old Guy
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 02:22 PM

I have 2 sons. They went to military school and were part of the ROTC but my Jello Brain ex wife convinced them to drop out.

I had 2 brothers in the Navy. I and another brother were 4F. I think my dad was 4F for some reason.

Now where are those examples of digitally altered photos from "the other side" what ever that is?

What you fail to understand that if those poor Plaestininas and Lebanese would forget their genocidal doctrine and join the modern world, their problems could be solved. They are their own worst enemy.

Do you think your flailing around in defence of them will help them? Face reality. The reality is terrorisim is bad and it will lead nowhere.

Their leaders have them convinced that their life is not worth living because "the enemy" will never allow them to have a good life. Therefore they are better off dead. They will be honored as a
Martyr and they will benefit those still alive.

The Hezbollah in Lebanon *WANT* civilians to be killed by Israel for their propaganda war.

Meanwhile the PA steals money given as aid for the Palestinians. Yasser Arafat stold billions and now his lovely wife Suha is living high on the hog Paris. How come she is not strapping on a suicide vest? If ever there was an instance of the haves exploiting the have nots, it is amongst the terrorists and their leaders

You can go along supporting that position if you want but I think it is a disservice to them and ultimately lead to more deaths than a rejection of terrorist tactics and sentiment.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 02:15 PM

He asked for faked photos from the 'other side', meaning Israel. That's a fair question.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 02:03 PM

Mr Guy--

Yup, you can use all the foul language you want--and it says worlds about your intelligence, poverty of vocabulary and bankruptcy of your position.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: dianavan
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 01:53 PM

Old Guy -

You make an awful lot of assumptions.

When I moved to Canada, there was a draft in the U.S. Iran also had a draft. I don't know about Lebanon. Why would I want to move to the Middle East? Are you stupid?

Do you have a son? Has he enlisted? Has anyone in your family enlisted?

Any photo can be digitally enhanced. I look at all photos with that in mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Old Guy
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 01:19 PM

PS:

You can use all the foul languge you want. This is America and free speech is protected, unlike the countries and ideologies you are supporting.

And why didn't you move to Lebanon or Iran to protect your son from the non existant draft?

Are you afraid he might then become a suicide bomber?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Old Guy
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 01:09 PM

Factual falacies: There is no draft.

"Others read them and like the contents"

If you can find fault with this statement is is because you don't have any facts to present. Where is the faked photos from the others side and what is the other side?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 04:55 AM

4: the two sets, whether cojoined or not, do not constitute the whole UOD.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 04:43 AM

Logical fallacies...

"Others read them and like the contents"

1: SOME read them ...

2: SOME like the contents...

3: the two sets above do not form a unique single cojoined set...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: dianavan
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 01:56 AM

I immigrated to Canada so that my son would not be drafted by the U.S. government.

I am not an uneducated, poverty stricken, Muslim woman who's only hope is Allah. In her circumstances, I don't know what I'd do.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Old Guy
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 01:06 AM

"Both sides do it." I have presented the evidence of one side, whatever side that is, of faked photos and footage coming out if Lebanon. Where is your evidence of faked photos coming from the other side, who ever that is?

You can't even say which side you are talking about much less provide any proof.

You don't want to read the cut and pastes because the contents makes you wrong. Others read them and like the contents.

Tell me, If you had a son, would you send him off to be a suicide bomber?

If you had children would you be a suicide bomber ourself and leave your children for "Allah" to take care of?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 08:10 PM

"I am constantly learning things as I search for real information."

Which means that you cannot ever cling indefinitely to any particular starting position - new things learnt affect old things already known, throwing them into a a new light of reintrepertation.


"find something [on the internet] that is not biased."

You are having a lend of us? Everything said by anyone contains their own personal biases.


"I could go on and on but I have a window to replace. "

But you DO, and you shouldn't provoke your neighbours to throw stones then...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: dianavan
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 02:39 PM

Gaza Strippers could be called Gazanians.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 02:09 PM

Wolfgang--

Thanks, I didn't realize if I could use the Du form with you--I've been told, when in doubt be conservative on that--don't assume familiarity.

Gee, I think I've committed egregious "thread creep".

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 01:48 PM

Ron, both are possible, 'echte' is a tiny bit better ('wahre Freude' would be another possibility). But I'd expect the familiar 'Du' instead of 'Sie'.
(When to use 'Du' or 'Sie' is a very difficult problem in German and the unwritten rules change locally and with time)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 01:18 PM

"Gaza Strippers" and "Holy Seers"--I love it.   Wolfgang, Sie sind eine echte Freude (besser wirkliche?.)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 01:02 PM

Yes, the factbook is usually reliable.
(I bet they have a much larger version only accessible with a password)

I often turn to it for instance for the English names of countries and, in particular, of the inhabitants. My guesses in cases like 'Ivory Coast' are too often wrong.

But they have gaps. One example (just to remain in the area dealt with in this thread): They don't give a noun how to call the inhabitants of 'Gaza Strip'. In an old thread, I wrote that 'Gaza strippers' sounds good to me. More seriously, I'd call them Palestinians. The Factbook doesn't know that.

Wolfgang (asking himself whether the inhabitants of the Holy See are called Holy Seers, another deplorable gap in the factbook)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 12:33 PM

Wolfgang--

Danke tausendmal. Great idea. I've now bookmarked the CIA World Factbook. Facts are always useful--even if some would rather just spout rhetoric.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 12:21 PM

from CIA world factbook (Lebanon):

Suffrage:
        
21 years of age; compulsory for all males; authorized for women at age 21 with elementary education

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: dianavan
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 11:22 AM

Putting something in your own words does not make it more truthful, Old Man. Its just easier to read. Condense the article in your mind, make a statement and back it up with a quote. Not everybody is going to read your lengthy cut n paste.

As far as news being biased or pictures being 'doctored', its not just one side doing it. Both sides do it.

Can women in Lebanon vote? I don't know. Its beside the point. Besides that, you don't want the answer because you already know. Since you know the answer, just make a statement, otherwise its a rhetorical question.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Old Guy
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 10:29 AM

Why does putting something into your own words make it more truthful?
It makes it more biased.
I think the writing of someone that has experienced something first hand to be the most pertinent and have more impact.

You can put things into your own words if you want but that does not change fiction into fact.

You might consider cut and paste as being lazy. I think it is laziness not to go out and look beyond what has been put into someone else's words and find something that is not biased.

When someone says "a few images were doctored" How do they know? Have they looked and read? Once you see faked images or staged news footage, a cautious person would distrust anything coming from that camp.

The stuff I find is either not being sought out and read by the Pro Hezbollans or it is being ignored if they find it.

I am constantly learning things as I search for real information.

I asked twice if Lebanese women can vote . There was no answer. Afraid to look? Don't care? To lazy to find out? Don't have the skills to find out? Afraid it will weaken you Pro Hizbollah stance?

If you notice I am not pro Isreal. I am anti any bunch of assholes who's stated purpose is to wipe out another race.

If you stand in that camp, you are not only a racist but a lunatic.

I dare you to read this
"Within a month of Nasrallah's taking over as leader, Hezbollah (with the help of Iranian intelligence) bombed the Israeli embassy in Buenos Aires, killing 29 and injuring over 200. The next attack perpetrated by Hezbollah—again with Iranian help—was the bombing of the Jewish community center in Buenos Aires, killing 86 and injuring over 200."

In the words of Nasrallah:

"If we searched the entire world for a person more cowardly, despicable, weak and feeble in psyche, mind, ideology and religion, we would not find anyone like the Jew. Notice, I do not say the Israeli." (New Yorker, Oct. 14, 2002)
"If they (Jews) all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide. (Daily Star, Oct. 23, 2002)"
"The Palestinian National Charter will live on as long as there is a knife in a Palestinian woman's hand with which she stabs an Israeli soldier or settler ... as long as there are suicide bombers in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv ... and as long as there is a child who throws a stone in the face of an Israeli soldier. (AP, Dec. 12, 1998)"

Rather harsh words from someone whith Jewish ancestry wouldn't you say?

"Let the entire world hear me. Our hostility to the Great Satan [America] is absolute ...
    I conclude my speech with the slogan that will continue to reverberate on all occasions so that nobody will think that we have weakened. Regardless of how the world has changed after 11 September, Death to America will remain our reverberating and powerful slogan: Death to America. (BBC Monitoring: Al-Manar, Sep. 27, 2002)"

Should we send them some aid so they can use it to kill us?

I could go on and on but I have a window to replace.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 10:25 AM

"miscalculated"

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 10:23 AM

That confirms my sources--Hezbollah miscalulated--but then so did Israel. And the latter was much more serious.


However, very intriguing column in the Wall St Journal yesterday. Though as a column it certainly has no pretense to objectivity, still I don't think all the quotes were made up. Therefore it seems clear that even within the Shiite community in Lebanon there's a split on the recent war--it's by no means endorsed by all Shiites in Lebanon.

Sayyed Ali-al-Amin called "the grand old man of Lebanese Shiism" in the article, states "The Shiite community never gave anyone the right to wage war in its name".

Mona Fayed, "a prominent Shiite academic in Beirut", in an article published last week, sarcastically defines a Shiite in Lebanon as "he who takes his instructions from Iran, terrorizes fellow believers into silence and leads the nation into catastrophe without
consulting anyone".

Even within Hezbollah there has been criticism. "Some in the political wing expressed dissatisfaction with his (Nasrallah's) overreliance on the movement's military and security apparatus. Speaking on condition of anonymity, they described Mr Nasrallah's style as "Stalinist"."

Nasrallah acted at the start of the war "without informing even the two Hezbollah ministers in the Siniora cabinet or the 12 Hezbollah members of the Lebanese cabinet".

And this is particularly fascinating: "Mr Nasrallah was also criticized for his acknowledgment of Ali Khamenei" (in Iran) " as Marjaa al Taglid (Source of Emulation", the highest theological authority in Shiism". "Many Lebanese resent this because Mr Khameni, a powerful politician but a lightweight in theological terms, is not recognized as Marjaa al-Taglid in Iran itself. The overwhelming majority of Lebanese Shiites regard Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani, in Iraq, or Ayatollah Muhammed Hussein Fadhlallah, in Beirut, as their "Source of Emulation".

Of course all the quotes by specific people are from members of the intelligentsia. The question is how many Shiites would fit this description, and how many are just poor people. This is particularly significant since, according to the column, anybody who can prove his home was damaged in the war receives $12,000 "a tidy sum in wartorn Lebanon".

I suspect Hezbollah's diligence in taking care of such people--and its largess-- is helping counter a lot of possible resentment----especially since Israel played into Hezbollah's hands by bombing all over Lebanon.

Nonetheless it's interesting to hear of dissenting voices--even in the Lebanese Shiite community.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 09:29 AM

"To tell the truth, we were surprised by the seriousness and the large scale of the operation. We had expected that Israel would respond with one or two days of bombing, rstricted attacks on selected targets".

Naim Kassem (deputy leader of Hezbollah) in interview with Egyptian paper 'an-Nahar'

(my translation of a German translation)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 09:25 AM

Some of you people do not like their fellow man--and I hate people like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 07:40 AM

I can't tolerate Intolerance - I think it's a slow boring movie.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: dianavan
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 02:30 AM

Whatsamatter, Slag, you can't stand on your own two feet? You wanta gang up with the Old Guy?

btw - I have nothing to say about the article. Maybe if he would try putting it in his own words...

...or just make a statement and back it up with a portion of the article.

I already get your point and quite frankly, you're both dogmatic authoritarians. I tolerate you but I don't have to agree with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Slag
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 02:05 AM

Hey Old Guy, You gotta love dianavan's argument: ignore the content of the excellent, intelligent and informative article and criticize the fact that you didn't "follow the rules" concerning cut and paste. What happened to that old situational ethic? Oh, I forgot, rules are for the OTHER guy to follow, right out of Brother Marx and Lenin's manifesto.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 09:41 PM

Oh, should have added, not in winter...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 09:35 PM

"Joe has a larger screen than most people"

I have a 20GLsi 1280x1024...

post of 25 Aug 06 - 12:55 AM was MUCH bigger than just one screen...

Now if Joe wants to brag that his is bigger than mine, I'll buy him a beer if he can demonstrate in public...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 05:10 PM

btw, from UNS1701

"Expressing its utmost concern at the continuing escalation of hostilities in Lebanon and in Israel
*********************************************************

since Hizbollah's attack on Israel on 12 July 2006,

*********************************************************

which has already caused hundreds of deaths and injuries on both sides, extensive damage to civilian infrastructure and hundreds of thousands of internally displaced persons,

Emphasizing the need for an end of violence, but at the same time emphasizing the need to address urgently the causes that have given rise to the current crisis,

**************************************************************

including by the unconditional release of the abducted Israeli soldiers,"
**************************************************************

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Old Guy
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 03:20 PM

IDF: Hizbullah may infiltrate Lebanese army
Ilan Marciano
Hezbollah in the Lebanese Army

There is nothing in the world anyone could do if Hezbollah's armed forced become a part of the Lebanese Army. Israel will have to swallow that pill, no matter how bitter. After all, the Hezbollah forces are Lebanese. One should not forget the fact that the PM of Lebanon has endorsed and praised Hezbollah for the resistance and sacrifice.

Nazim , Brussels, Belgium (08.15.06)
http://www.ynetnews.com/Ext/App/TalkBack/CdaViewOpenTalkBack/0,11382,L-3291682-2,00.html

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 01:05 PM

"I'll just let you blather on so that everyone knows that you are unable consider the sanctity of human life, regardless of religion. "



Unlike some here, I do consider human life REGARDLESS OF RELIGION, sacred.





It seems that some here have a new "peace" song...


"All we are saying....
Is kill all the Jews.

( repaet forever.)"

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Old Guy
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 01:05 PM

Are you going to threaten me with violence?

Seems to me all this Liberalisim leads to more death. Yeah, We should have pity on this killer and let him out of jail so he can kill some more.

Pregnant? We can't have that. Out out damned spot.

More than a few photos were faked. Now which photos from the "other side" have been doctored?

Which "side" has the footage showing the same old woman crying over the rubble of her house in two places? Did she own more than one house and both of them were destroyed?

Also do you know if women ca vote in Lebanon?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 12:39 PM

Old Man - It looks like Reuters is pretty vigilant about digitally enhanced photos but...

Like I said, you can't believe any of the photos you see because of our ability to manipulate the images.

Just because one or two have been caught, doesn't mean that all photographs of Lebanon, Israel, Darfut, etc. are fake but...

You have to take it with a grain of salt.

Its certainly not just one side that's doing the doctoring.

bb - I am tempted to use very foul language when replying to your insults but I'll just let you blather on so that everyone knows that you are unable consider the sanctity of human life, regardless of religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Old Guy
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 12:36 PM

AS has been said may times before, Joe has a larger screen than most people.

The main objection to this cut and paste is that it runs counter to what the liberals here want to see.

I think it is more dramatic an pertinent in the writer's own words, much better than I could do because I am not there.

This person might be a Christian but he is Lebanese and has the same rights to speak as other Lebanese.

It contains some anti America sentiment so you cannot claim it is completely biased.

Is there anything in my post that you can disprove? If so, have at it. Cut and paste gladly accepted.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 07:51 AM

"Dressed in civilian clothing so they can quickly disappear"

Uniforms COST MONEY better spent on whatever weapons they can get their hands on! It's a luxury they can't afford - you wanna donate to the 'buy a freedom fighter a uniform' fund?



A simple black band ( or other color) indicating affiliation with Hezbollah, and NOT REMOVED when being attacked would suffice. Too bad they can't do that, and that they hide behind women and children.


And they seem to have uniforms in all those pictures of them marching in parades, and shouting "Kill all the Jews"

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 07:29 AM

"Aren't cut n' paste articles limited to under a page?"

Not for those to who The Almighty speaks directly!


"threatening innocent lives is Hezbollah who is launching rockets with no sense of direction whatsoever."

I'm getting sick of this tired old line being dragged out all the time...

That is all they have, they don't have the luxury of Israel with billions of dollars of donated sophisticated weaponry So let them get some 'real weapons' like Israel has, then we'll see if they really WANT to 'target civilians'...


And I'm also getting sick of this tired old line being dragged out all the time...

"Dressed in civilian clothing so they can quickly disappear"

Uniforms COST MONEY better spent on whatever weapons they can get their hands on! It's a luxury they can't afford - you wanna donate to the 'buy a freedom fighter a uniform' fund?

"(pictures show them) using high-density residential areas as launch pads for rockets and heavy-calibre weapons."

So when you have nice expensive precise guided weaponry, you STILL need to carpet bomb 10 or more city residential blocks?



"Communism"

Us political code word for 'anybody with an independent mind who won't do what we want them to do, when we want them to do it'.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 07:15 AM

"the long article is quite interesting to have a look at and to read the different opinions:"

dianavan has shown that she is not interested in different opinions- only those that agree with her preset judgements.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 07:05 AM

But the site from which Old Guy copied the long article is quite interesting to have a look at and to read the different opinions:

Personal views and opinions of Lebanese forces members

(Lebanes Forces Wikipedia article about them so you know where this comes from. It's not the Lebanese army, it's a small Christian party and former militia)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 03:32 AM

Gee, Old Guy, do you think you could put that in your own words?

I didn't think so.

Aren't cut n' paste articles limited to under a page?

I thought so.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Old Guy
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 01:02 AM

Photos that damn Hezbollah

Chris Link July 30, 2006 Sunday Herald Sun

THIS is the picture that damns Hezbollah. It is one of several, smuggled from behind Lebanon's battle lines, showing that Hezbollah is waging war amid suburbia.

The images, obtained exclusively by the Sunday Herald Sun, show Hezbollah using high-density residential areas as launch pads for rockets and heavy-calibre weapons.

Dressed in civilian clothing so they can quickly disappear, the militants carrying automatic assault rifles and ride in on trucks mounted with cannon.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Old Guy
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 12:55 AM

Not a single Answer from Hugo, Only more propaganda.

How does this sound Hugo Ol Pal:

"Throughout the years, the subject of Hezbollah has become somewhat taboo in Lebanon and ill speaking of the Party of God can, even to this very day, land you in a jail cell courtesy of the Military Intelligence service, or much worse, a bullet in the head ( Ten days after the beginning of the conflict, a major Lebanese broadcasting station announced that eighteen people were summarily executed by the Hezeb after having been accused of spying for Israel)."

The sad truth about Hezbollah tactics - a detailed follow up
I am writing it for several reasons, the main one to clear many misunderstandings created by my previous document, and also to shed more light as to why I am doing this.

In the following lines, I will try to describe in the best way possible, what is meant by the article.

I broke it down into three main parts to enable the reader to fully grasp the ideas I am trying to convey:

    * Who I am and a general background about me
    * Why I am doing this
    * The facts used to reach the conclusions

Firstly, let me introduce myself. I am a Lebanese citizen. I am a Christian, of Maronite confession.

For me, Lebanon comes first before anything else. This is how I was raised.

For close to two years, as a fighter in the Lebanese Forces, I resisted the Syrian plans to occupy the Christian sector of Beirut, then, when the inevitable happened and they finally took the whole country, I endured their occupation for nearly fifteen years, and resisted in the shadows alongside many of my fellow Lebanese brothers.

The last civil war that ravaged my country taught me a very important lesson, and that is, no foreign country wishes any good for Lebanon. They all seek to complete their own agendas, at the expense of the Lebanese people, regardless of religion:

    * The Arabs (Gulf and Egypt): after two unsuccessful wars against Israel, in 1967 and 1973, found it easier to fight Israel using Lebanon as a proxy
    * The Palestinians: after seeking refuge in Lebanon, they used it to launch attacks against Israel
    * The Americans: they usually made sure Israel's best interests were kept , and they also wanted to resist the spread of communism to the Middle East Region.
    * The Soviets mainly supported the Arab countries in their fight against Israel, as they saw it as an opportunity to export communism to the area.
    * The Israelis: even though they assisted the Christian militias in their fight against the Palestinians (PLO) from the mid seventies to the early eighties, they were doing so for their own benefits
    * The Syrians: many of them refuse to consider Lebanon as a free sovereign state and consider it a part of Syria. In 1976, they entered Lebanon as a peace keeping force and soon turned into an occupation force, an occupation that lasted to the year 2005.
    * The Iranians: after the Iranian revolution in the late seventies, they saw the Lebanese Shiites as a medium to expand their Islamic revolutionary ideologies and export them to the other countries.

It is important to note that there is a very big struggle between Iran and Saudi Arabia, a struggle that has its roots in the differences between the Shiite and the Sunni confessions dating back to the assassination of the grandson of the Prophet, Hussein ibn Ali by the Sunnis in Karbala' which is now in Iraq (around the 7th century AD)It is also important to note that throughout the Lebanese Civil war, many Lebanese militias and groups were supported by the different countries listed above, and finally that the war was actually an extrapolation of the Cold war that opposed at the time the two super powers, namely USA and the USSR.

A third point worth mentioning is that 1990, as a reward for its participation in the first Gulf war, Syria was given the green light by America to take over Lebanon. It was by agreement with Israel that Syrian planes flew over Beirut, for the first (and last time), to bombard Christian sectors thus opening the way for Syrian troops to advance.

Also, there has not been a single shot fired in the Golan heights which are originally Syrian but have been occupied by Israel since the six days war of 1967 and war of Yom Kippur in 1973.

So the reader can see why, as a Lebanese citizen, I look at any kind of foreign intervention or assistance with a great deal of skepticism and reluctance.

This said, I will now dive into the second section, which is why I condemn Hezbollah for its use of civilians as shields in the latest conflict that is ravaging Lebanon.

Firstly, I would like to stress that in no way is this a mea culpa or a form of attenuating the impact of my first article which ruffled some feathers among readers who support Hezbollah.

Another important point is that in this is not meant to help, assist, or excuse the Israeli actions. I consider their attack on Lebanon an infringement of Lebanese sovereignty and I demand that this useless bloodshed be stopped immediately.

All the Lebanese agree that there are more peaceful ways in solving the Hezbollah weapons issue, most important being that Syria officially acknowledges the Lebanese identity of the Shebaa Farms, thus allowing it to fall under the mandate of UN resolution 425, which would lead to Israel pulling its troops out, and removing any excuse for an armed resistance within the Lebanese territory.

Throughout the years, the subject of Hezbollah has become somewhat taboo in Lebanon and ill speaking of the Party of God can, even to this very day, land you in a jail cell courtesy of the Military Intelligence service, or much worse, a bullet in the head ( Ten days after the beginning of the conflict, a major Lebanese broadcasting station announced that eighteen people were summarily executed by the Hezeb after having been accused of spying for Israel).

Because of this, many of the party's actions are swept under the proverbial carpet, including the usage of civilians as shields. Had this topic been brought to the open, many lives would have been spared.

To further understand the modulus operandi of this armed faction, it is important to go deeper in their religious beliefs.

Shi'ite religion was founded as a cult of mourning around Hussein, the third Imam. It is dominated by black flags and veils, the ubiquity of mourning, penitence and death, a conspicuous enthusiasm for self-sacrifice, the celebration of suffering, the reverence for martyrdom and the veneration of individual martyrs.

The Shi'ite religion is rooted the concept that while each Shi'ite shares in guilt for the death of the martyrs, one can nevertheless find redemption through a properly repentant attitude - above all through the intercession of an Imam, that is to say: a martyr. And naturally also by following Hussein into martyrdom itself. [1]

Thus, for the Shi'ite, martyrdom is the key to heaven, and this is the main creed of the Hezbollah fighters who do not fear death on the battlefield, but rather seek it.

This is the main key behind the strength of the Party of God and behind their formidable standoff against the repeated onslaught of the Israeli army, and also the main key to understanding the concept of death for those people. To be killed in the war is an honor for them, be you a militant or a civilian.

The main form of fighting used by Hezbollah fighters is guerilla warfare. In fact they have no apparent bases, no barracks where they regroup or any of the standard military formation that is seen in most armies. As guerillas, they fight a mobile war based on hit and run operations. They know that a war of attrition is the worst kind of war Israel can endure and therefore make the most of it. They also know what kind of impact the death of civilians has on the international community and make use of it to the extreme.

I believe that enough has been said about the conflict in the different news medias, so I will not go into how it started or why.

I would like to concentrate more specifically on the latest incident, the massacre of Qana which took place on Sunday July 30, 2006 and where fifty-five civilians, thirty-seven of which were children, and the rest women, perished when a building that sheltered them was bombarded by the Israeli Air force.

In my previous article, I had discussed why, in my opinion, Hezbollah was to blame for this massacre although it was carried out by the IAF. Now, I will describe how, not only myself, but many other Lebanese, have come to this conclusion.

Firstly, as in any investigation, we have to ask the question "who benefits from this".

Although perpetuated by Israeli war planes, and the victims are Lebanese citizens, the beneficiary of this horrible deed is not Israel, this being for many reasons:

    * Despite the American green light, and the UN turning a blind eye, claiming that Israel has the right to defend itself, the Israeli attack on Lebanon was criticized by many communities world wide
    * Anti-Israeli sentiments, initially large among Arab communities, have grown even larger in the aftermath of the Qana tragedy.
    * Israel has much to gain in a swift, surgical victory over Hezbollah, and the longer the conflict lasts, the more innocent civilians are killed, the less surgical and precise the Israeli operation appears.

On the other hand, Hezbollah has a lot to gain in making the conflict last longer since:

    * It demonstrates its efficiency and might in battles lead on the ground.
    * It humiliates the IDF and at the same time, the Arab countries that initially criticized the abduction of the two soldiers in the cross border raid of July 12th. The reader recalls that the combined Arab armies were unable to defeat Israel in two wars.
    * The more civilians are hurt in the conflict, the greater the humiliation of IDF since it appears clumsy, inaccurate and unable to finish off a militia made up of a couple of thousand fighters, when its army counts around fifteen thousand soldiers
    * In addition, the higher the civilian casualty count leads to greater anti Israeli sentiments amongst the Lebanese population and other countries, specifically Arab Muslim ones and therefore to more support for the Hezbollah cause.
    * According to Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni, Israel's scope for political maneuvering had been reduced following the events in Qana, as was the amount of European support Israel is receiving for its operation in Lebanese soil[2]

Once the beneficiary has been established, we can move to the second point and that is the evidence on hand.

On the second day of the Israeli attack (July 13th 2006), an inhabitant of one of the southern villages called the Lebanese Broadcasting Cooperation to inform them about Hezbollah militants firing rockets at Israel from the center of the town. Israel retaliated by bombarding the location from which rockets were fired. Luckily, no casualties were reported.

As the days went by, more and more reports were coming from the South about how Hezbollah fighters would fire rockets from locations amidst civilian homes, causing retaliatory bombardment.

The reports came in shyly at first as many people feared retaliation from the fighters, and communications with the rest of the country were cut off by air raids.

But as refugees started to poor into the capital, the stories grew more concrete, yet all the people refused to talk in front of cameras or to be quoted.

The writer had interviewed many of those refugees and the stories told were shocking:

"They would come in on bikes, set up the launcher, fire and then disappear before the airplanes could arrive" said one man from a Christian border village.

"I start to shiver any time I hear a humming noise as it could either be an Israeli Drone plane filming the location in preparation for a raid or the bikes used by the fighters as they come in to shoot their rockets" said a young mother nursing her two month old infant…

A third witness told of how Hezbollah fighters had shaved their beards and come to live in with them in their houses:

"They would leave at sunset to go to the battle field and return at dawn to rest… until the mayor issued a curfew forbidding any one to leave their homes after 19:00h" he added, eyes looking around as if fearful that a word would have been heard by anyone.

"My two sons were shot at as they attempted to leave the town and were forced by the fighters to return to their home" all those reports told of people held prisoners in their own homes as the fighters hid among them.

Some international papers featured articles with pictures. Those papers included:

    * The New York Times, dated July 28th, had an article by Sabrina Tavernise about Hezbollah actions in a southern Christian village named Ain Ebel.
    * The Sunday Herald Sun in the July 30th edition ( ) which showed three pictures of Hezbollah using high-density residential areas as launch pads for rockets and heavy-calibre weapons.
    * The Guardian which featured an article about Hezbollah modulus operandi ()
    * CNN which showed footages obtained from cameras in drone and fighter planes that clearly indicated how civilian homes were used to hide rocket launchers
    * The Lebanese Forces Blog Site featured many articles describing the actions of Hezbollah guerillas and warning of carnages like the Qana massacre. Some articles include reports from one of the villages where those acts were commited.

Besides the above, it is very interesting to note that Sunni border villages like the village of Shebaa (not to be mistaken with Shebaa farms), where the presence of Hezbollah guerillas is not tolerated nor welcome, was virtually unharmed throughout the onslaught.

In terms of motives, what could have been the motives of the Party of God to commit such a horrible act?

Firstly there is the aspect of causing more humiliation to the IDF as well as provoking the international community into a stronger condemnation of the Jewish state.

But if one was to look closely at the timing of the operation, one would realize the magnitude horror and the cold calculations that took place:

On the nineteenth day, Hezbollah appeared to be making a heroic defense stance, warding off every single advancement attempt by the IDF, while demanding an unconditional cease fire.

For them, an immediate and unconditional cease fire would have been very beneficial since it would allow them to "catch their breath", rearm and reorganize and possibly make a comeback to the battlefield.

Yet, things were seen differently on the international scene.

The Lebanese government, along with the United Nations, had proposed a seven-point plan for the hostilities to cease. The plan was a total solution to the problem and not a simple request for cease fire. The major points were deployment of the army to the south, resolving the Shebaa farms issue, which would lead to the disarmament of Hezbollah.

At first, the plan was vehemently opposed by Hezbollah ministers and representatives, then, on the day following the announcement of the plan by Lebanese Premier Siniora (Thursday July 27th), Hezbollah declared that it supported the seven-point plan.

The declaration surprised many, yet was welcome as a sign of goodwill.

Three days later, the massacre occurred and Hezbollah declared that the seven-point plan was void, that they rejected any talks with Israel as long as there was no UNCONDITIONAL cease-fire. The region was back to square one.

So we have beneficiary, evidence as well as motives determined, I guess that we can clearly rest the case.

Let it be a lesson for the future, keeping silent about such wrong doings will only open the door to more massacres of innocent civilians.

http://www.ouwet.com/othello/other/the-sad-truth-about-hezbollah-tactics-a-detailed-follow-up/

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 12:26 AM

It's fair to assume that if the Palestinians kidnapped John Prescott or Dick Cheney ,the govts of Britain and the US would unleash a storm of protest followed by a firestorm on anyone who defended the action.

Yet when Israeli Defence Force soldiers arrested the Palestinian deputy prime minister Nasser Shaer last weekend there was barely a whisper.The next day troops surrounded the home of Mahmoud Al Rahami _secretary general of the Palestinian Legislative Council _and detained him in broad daylight.

With these arrests five members of the Hamas led Palestinian cabinet and some 25 Hamas MPs are now in Israeli custody.

Even before the Lebanese war ,Israel was carrying out musrder.In July it the Israeli military killed 163 Palestinians in Gaza and 36 of those were children.
The number of Palestinian fatalities in July was the highest ofany month since april 2002
.
Having lost in Lebanon ,Israel is now punishing the Palestinians even further .
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Old Guy
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 12:08 AM

1. NO
2. Yes but not just American MSM
3. Can't figure out the question

Where is Hugo with the answers?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Old Guy
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 11:30 PM

There have been dozens of articles about how footage is staged and photos have been altered to make things look bad in Lebanon.
If you havent seen it you must be blind. Remember the fact that Reuters canned someone who faked photos? Look at my posts of 08 Aug 06 - 08:21 &08:26 PM.

http://www.ouwet.com/n10452/personal-opinions/hizbullah-s-filthy-methods/

Hezbollahs Filthy Methods

For the past 11 days, we have seen Israel bomb all sorts of targets and I am sure most of us were wondering why would Israel bomb a certain factory or a construction yard or a truck..

If we can for a moment turn off all the local and international channels who have nothing to do but show little dead children and dismembered bodies that touch the viewer to a certain degree that it would blind them, and think about the reasons behind those hits.

From a military point of view, you have a fully equipped army, ranked in the top 5 armies in the world fighting against a guerrilla militia with absolutely no info on its fighters, weapons and locations.

Even though the Israeli army is way superior in terms of weapons, technology and size than Hezbollah, its war must be a very cautious and tactical one since its fighting a guerilla militia.

We have seen Israel for example hitting a tissue factory in a small village in the south. The reason for that would be Hezbollah move around with a missile in a truck, park near a factory and fire a rocket then flee. The origin of the rocket being the factory, Israelis respond by hitting it.

A witness to a similar action went on TV and urged Hezbollah fighters to stop coming into his village to shoot rockets and then run away since the village is being destroyed.

Same for the truck that was carrying civilians and that became very suspicious when it was not allowed to enter the UN offices.

Fighting a guerrilla is very hard and knowing that they could shoot from anywhere, we should expect attacks on unusual places.

Innocent people are dying this is true, but I believe the way Hezbollah is operating and its filthy methods in infiltrating villages and using them as launch positions is causing all those casualties.

Of course Israelis have hit bridges recklessly during the day killing innocent civilians trying to cross the bridge, but its war and you always have victims.

On the other hand, the party thats hitting civilians randomly and threatening innocent lives is Hezbollah who is launching rockets with no sense of direction whatsoever. I have seen rockets land on balconies, small cafes, walls… anything but military targets.

Finally, I heard that Hezbollah has accepted that the government negotiate on the prisoners fate today, therefore I hope that they realized they haven't achieved anything except self destruction politically and militarily and most of all the destruction of Lebanon and putting it in economical ruin for the next 5 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 11:12 PM

BB--

Fine words, but as to the peace-keeping force which is supposed to oversee all this--and prevent a recurrence of war--Steven Colbert of all people hit pretty close to the mark, discussing the fact that France has pledged 400 soldiers.

"400 soldiers--ce n'est pas une Peace-Keeping Force."

But I also think Israel is foolish to raise yet more obstacles to the "peace-keeping force". The more soldiers--from any country---in this proposed multinational force which is to stand between Israel and Hezbollah, the better for Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 04:14 PM

"Emphasizing the need for an end of violence, but at the same time emphasizing the need to address urgently the causes that have given rise to the current crisis, including by the unconditional release of the abducted Israeli soldiers,

Mindful of the sensitivity of the issue of prisoners and encouraging the efforts aimed at urgently settling the issue of the Lebanese prisoners detained in Israel,

Welcoming the efforts of the Lebanese Prime Minister and the commitment of the Government of Lebanon, in its seven-point plan, to extend its authority over its territory, through its own legitimate armed forces, such that there will be no weapons without the consent of the Government of Lebanon and no authority other than that of the Government of Lebanon, welcoming also its commitment to a United Nations force that is supplemented and enhanced in numbers, equipment, mandate and scope of operation, and bearing in mind its request in this plan for an immediate withdrawal of the Israeli forces from southern Lebanon,"

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 04:12 PM

"14. Calls upon the Government of Lebanon to secure its borders and other entry points to prevent the entry in Lebanon without its consent of arms or related materiel and requests UNIFIL as authorized in paragraph 11 to assist the Government of Lebanon at its request;

15. Decides further that all States shall take the necessary measures to prevent, by their nationals or from their territories or using their flag vessels or aircraft:

(a) The sale or supply to any entity or individual in Lebanon of arms and related materiel of all types, including weapons and ammunition, military vehicles and equipment, paramilitary equipment, and spare parts for the aforementioned, whether or not originating in their territories; and

(b) The provision to any entity or individual in Lebanon of any technical training or assistance related to the provision, manufacture, maintenance or use of the items listed in subparagraph (a) above; except that these prohibitions shall not apply to arms, related material, training or assistance authorized by the Government of Lebanon or by UNIFIL as authorized in paragraph 11;"


http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/UN_Security_Council_Resolution/1701