BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: GUEST,mg`
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 05:07 PM

as an aside, someone mentioned "apache" helicopters. I don't know what the Queen's English prefers, but out of respect for the Native American tribe these helicopters are named after, I would recommend capitalizing the word Apache. Likewise Chinook. Also in respect for those who fly and maintain them. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 04:56 PM

"Getting back on focus to the subject of this thread ...

when the question of "who won" was asked to the Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni ... her reply was "the good guys won"

Well ... there ya go ... that's who won.

sIx"

I didn't know Tzipi Livni was a supporter of Hezbollah! (he he!, sorry, couldn't resist that one!)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: number 6
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 03:55 PM

Getting back on focus to the subject of this thread ...

when the question of "who won" was asked to the Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni ... her reply was "the good guys won"

Well ... there ya go ... that's who won.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: C. Ham
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 03:43 PM

Israel has been occupying the Shebaa farms whih is Lebanese territory for years.

Just because Ifor tells lies on Mudcat, it doesn't make them true. Even when he/she repeats them over and over and over again.

The Shebba Farms were captured from Syria -- NOT LEBANON -- during the Six-Day War in 1967. They are part of the Golan Heights.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Old Guy
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 03:36 PM

You are right Ifor, Israel is a bunch of terrorist bastards that lie their asses off and The PLO is just a bunch of happy peace loving good guys that never lie and wouldn't hurt a flea.

Live long and prosper.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 03:20 PM

Israel has been occupying the Shebaa farms whih is Lebanese territory for years. Israel has also used its armed forces to kidnap,kill and intimidate Lebanese people for decades.

It never completely withdrew from Lebanese territory after the 1982 invasion but did leave the gift hundreds of thousands of landmines which have killed and maimed civilians for years.It also refused to hand over the maps that show where these landmines have been laid.

Last month it used cluster bombs in huge amounts on towns and villages across Southern Lebanon.The victims of these vicious weapons have been mainly children.

However,in the villages close to the border, Hezbollah aided by thousands of ordinary Lebanese residents fought the Israelis to a standstill forcing them to withdraw.
The ceasefire also meant that Lebanese refugees were able to pour back into the south before the Israelis were able to establish themselves close to the Litani river.
The Israelis may yet go back for more but the Lebanese resistance won this round.

ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Old Guy
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 02:41 PM

U.N. Security Council Resolution 425 was issued five days after the Israeli invasion to Lebanon on March 14, 1978 in what was referred to as Operation Litani. This invasion was triggered by the March 11, 1978 massacre of 37 Israeli civilians riding in a bus in the Tel Aviv area by members of Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) infiltrating from Lebanon -- See Coastal Road massacre. This attack was, however, just the latest and most deadly in a string of attacks launched from Lebanese territory.

The stated objective of the Operation Litani was to clear out the PLO bases located inside Lebanon, south of the Litani River, in order to better secure northern Israel.

Following Lebanese government claims, the United Nations, driven by the United States, began seeking a peacekeeping force for the area that Israel had occupied in order to bring about a withdrawal of the Israeli forces, and to reintroduce the authority of the Lebanese government in southern Lebanon.

These efforts culminated in Resolution 425, during the 2074th meeting of the United Nations Security Council on March 19, 1978. That led to the formation of UNIFIL, the objective of which was to confirm Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon, restore international peace and security, and help the Lebanese Government restore its effective authority in the area.

The resolution text

    "The Security Council,
    Taking note of the letters from the Permanent Representative of Lebanon and from the Permanent Representative of Israel, Having heard the statement of the Permanent Representatives of Lebanon and Israel, Gravely concerned at the deterioration of the situation in the Middle East and its consequences to the maintenance of international peace, Convinced that the present situation impedes the achievement of a just peace in the Middle East,
    1. Calls for strict respect for the territorial integrity, sovereignty and political independence of Lebanon within its internationally recognized boundaries;
    2. Calls upon Israel immediately to cease its military action against Lebanese territorial integrity and withdraw forthwith its forces from all Lebanese territory;
    3. Decides, in the light of the request of the Government of Lebanon, to establish immediately under its authority a United Nations interim force for Southern Lebanon for the purpose of confirming the withdrawal of Israeli forces, restoring international peace and security and assisting the Government of Lebanon in ensuring the return of its effective authority in the area, the Force to be composed of personnel drawn from Member States;
    4. Requests the Secretary-General to report to the Council within twenty-four hours on the implementation of the present resolution."

Aftermath

The first UNIFIL troops arrived in Lebanon on March 23, 1978, just four days after the resolution was passed. Israel did not accept the resolution, and refused to withdraw. No international pressure was exercised on it to abide by the resolution. Israel, however, expanded its occupation in a larger-scale invasion in June 1982, in which Israeli troops occupied the capital city of Beirut -- See 1982 Lebanon War. Other major attacks within Lebanon took place in July 1993 and April 1996 --See Operation Accountability and Operation Grapes of Wrath.

In May 2000, more than 22 years after resolution 425 was passed, Israel withdrew its troops from southern Lebanon. Prior to the withdrawal, opposition voices inside Israel pressured the government to withdraw from Lebanon, as they saw no valid reason to stay there and sustain Lebanese attacks.
The Blue Line covers the Lebanese-Israeli border as well as the Lebanese-Golan Heights border.
Enlarge
The Blue Line covers the Lebanese-Israeli border as well as the Lebanese-Golan Heights border.

The UN Secretary-General concluded that, as of June 16, 2000, Israel had indeed withdrawn its forces from Lebanon, in accordance with resolution 425 (1978). The border recognized by the UN is known as the "Blue Line".

Lebanon, however, claims that Israel is still keeping Lebanese land under its occupation, mainly in Shebaa Farms. Israel says, and the UN agrees, that Shebaa Farms is Syrian and not Lebanese, and therefore it is not included under resolution 425. Lebanon's claim to Shebaa Farm arose for the first time in 2000, and all published maps from the prior century indicate the land to be in Syrian (or Israeli-occupied) territory.

Lebanon has not extended control over south Lebanon, though it was called on to do so by UN Resolution 1391 of 2002 (see http://www.un.org/Docs/scres/2002/sc2002.htm) and urged by UN Resolution 1496 of 2003. Israel has lodged multiple complaints regarding Lebanon's conduct.

Immediately after the withdrawal, Israeli aircraft crossed the Blue Line on an almost daily basis, penetrating deep into Lebanese airspace. Since mid-December 2005, the number of Israeli air violations has decreased. Israeli warships also continued to violate the Lebanese territorial waters. On October 22, 2005 a Lebanese fisherman was reported missing. His boat ran aground in Israel, and was returned by the Israeli army. There were a number of bullet marks on the boat. The IDF explained that they had opened fire as a precaution in case the boat was booby-trapped, but that it was already empty at the time Many other incidents were reported along the Blue Line such as gunfire and cross border attacks. Both Lebanon and Israel have lodged multiple complaints regarding the other party's violations.

Hezbollah, a Shiite paramilitary group which exercises de facto sovereignty over much of South Lebanon, continues to launch attacks against Israeli troops from time to time, primarily inside the Shebaa Farms area. Lebanon also calls on Israel to free the prisoners of war and to hand over the maps of the land mines in the area that was under its occupation.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Old Guy
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 02:20 PM

"The attack on Lebanon" I though it was an attack on Israel.

I guess this idiot, Ifor, has his own version of reality.

Is it true, Ifor, that Isreal retreatd from Lebanon in return for peace?

Israel has long sought a peaceful northern border. But lebanon's position as a haven for terrorist groups has made this impossible. In March 1978, plo terrorists infiltrated Israel. After murdering an American tourist walking near an Israeli beach, they hijacked a civilian bus. The terrorists shot through the windows as the bus traveled down the highway. When Israeli troops intercepted the bus, the terrorists opened fire. A total of 34 hostages died in the attack. In response, Israeli forces crossed into lebanon and overran terrorist bases in the southern part of that country, pushing the terrorists away from the border. The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) withdrew after two months, allowing united nations forces to enter. But un troops were unable to prevent terrorists from reinfiltrating the region and introducing new, more dangerous arms.

Violence escalated with a series of plo attacks and Israeli reprisals. Finally, the United States helped broker a cease­fire agreement in July 1981. The plo repeatedly violated the cease-fire over the ensuing 11 months. Israel charged that the plo staged 270 terrorist actions in Israel, the West Bank, and gaza, and along the lebanese and jordanian borders. Twenty-nine Israelis died and more than 300 were injured in the attacks.

Meanwhile, a force of some 15-18,000 plo members was encamped in scores of locations in lebanon. About 5,000-6,000 were foreign mercenaries, coming from such countries as libya, iraq, india, sri lanka, chad, and mozambique. Israel later discovered enough light arms and other weapons in lebanon to equip five brigades. The plo arsenal included mortars, Katyusha rockets, and an extensive anti-aircraft network. The plo also brought hundreds of T­34 tanks into the area. syria, which permitted lebanon to become a haven for the plo and other terrorist groups, brought surface-to-air missiles into that country, creating yet another danger for Israel.

Israeli strikes and commando raids were unable to stem the growth of this plo army. The situation in the Galilee became intolerable as the frequency of attacks forced thousands of residents to flee their homes or to spend large amounts of time in bomb shelters. Israel was not prepared to wait for more deadly attacks to be launched against its civilian population before acting against the terrorists.

The final provocation occurred in June 1982 when an arab terrorist group led by abu nidal attempted to assassinate Israel's Ambassador to Great Britain, Shlomo Argov. The IDF subsequently attacked Lebanon again on June 4-5, 1982. The plo responded with a massive artillery and mortar attack on the Israeli population of the Galilee. On June 6, the IDF moved into lebanon to drive out the terrorists in "Operation Peace for Galilee."

Former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger defended the Israeli operation: "No sovereign state can tolerate indefinitely the buildup along its borders of a military force dedicated to its destruction and implementing its objectives by periodic shellings and raids" (Washington Post, June 16, 1982).

"On Lebanon, it is clear that we and Israel both seek an end to the violence there, and a sovereign, independent lebanon," President Reagan said June 21, 1982. "We agree that Israel must not be subjected to violence from the north."

The initial success of the Israeli operation led officials to broaden the objective to expel the PLO from Lebanon and induce the country's leaders to sign a peace treaty. In 1983, Lebanon's President, Amin Gemayel, signed a peace treaty with Israel. A year later, Syria forced Gemayel to renege on the agreement. The war then became drawn out as the IDF captured Beirut and surrounded Yasser Arafat and his guerrillas.

plo Tyranny In lebanon

For arab residents of south lebanon, plo rule was a nightmare. After the plo was expelled from jordan by king Hussein in 1970, many of its cadres went to lebanon. The plo seized whole areas of the country, where it brutalized the population and usurped lebanese government authority.

On October 14, 1976, lebanese ambassador Edward Ghorra told the un general assembly the plo was bringing ruin upon his country: "palestinian elements belonging to various...organizations resorted to kidnaping lebanese--and sometimes foreigners--holding them prisoner, questioning them, torturing them, and sometimes killing them" (New York Times, October 15, 1976). Columnists Rowland Evans and Robert Novak, not known for being sympathetic toward Israel, declared after touring south lebanon and beirut that the facts "tend to support Israel's claim that the plo has become permeated by thugs and adventurers" (Washington Post, June 25, 1982). Countless lebanese told harrowing tales of rape, mutilation, and murders committed by plo forces.

New York Times correspondent David Shipler visited Damour, a christian village near beirut, which had been occupied by the plo since 1976, when palestinians and lebanese leftists sacked the city and massacred hundreds of its inhabitants. The plo, Shipler wrote, had turned the town into a military base, "using its churches as strongholds and armories" (New York Times, June 21, 1982).

When the IDF drove the plo out of Damour in June 1982, Prime Minister Menachem Begin announced that the town's christian residents could come home and rebuild. Returning villagers found their former homes littered with spray-painted palestinian nationalist slogans, fatah literature, and posters of yasir arafat. They told Shipler how happy they were that Israel had liberated them.

The plo's Reluctant Retreat

When the IDF captured beirut, the civilian population was forced to suffer because of the plo's refusal to surrender. By mid-June, Israeli troops had surrounded 6,000-9,000 terrorists who had taken up positions amid the civilian population of west beirut. To prevent civilian casualties, Israel agreed to a cease-fire to enable an American diplomat, Ambassador Philip Habib, to mediate a peaceful plo withdrawal from lebanon. As a gesture of flexibility, Israel agreed to permit plo forces to leave beirut with their personal weapons. But the plo continued to make new demands.

The plo also adopted a strategy of controlled violations of the cease­fire, with the purpose of inflicting casualties on Israel and provoking Israeli retaliation sufficient to get the IDF blamed for disrupting the negotiations and harming civilians. For more than a month, the plo tried to extract a political victory from its military defeat. arafat declared his willingness "in principle" to leave beirut, then refused to go to any other country. arafat also tried to push the US to recognize the plo. Throughout the siege, the plo hid behind innocent civilians, accurately calculating that if Israel were to attack, it would be internationally condemned.

"The Israelis bombed buildings, innocent looking on the outside, where their intelligence told them that plo offices were hidden," wrote Middle East analyst Joshua Muravchik ("Misreporting Lebanon," Policy Review, Winter 1983). "Their intelligence also told them of the huge network of underground plo storage facilities for arms and munitions that was later uncovered by the lebanese army. No doubt the Israelis dropped some bombs hoping to penetrate those facilities and detonate the dumps. The plo had both artillery and anti­aircraft [equipment] truck mounted. These would fire at the Israelis and then move." The Israelis would fire back and sometimes miss, inadvertently hitting civilian targets.

In numerous instances, the media mistakenly reported that Israel was hitting civilian targets in areas where no military ones were nearby. On one night in July, Israeli shells hit seven embassies in beirut. NBC aired a report that appeared to lend credence to plo claims that it had no military positions in the area. Israel, Muravchik noted, "soon released reconnaissance photos showing the embassy area honeycombed with tanks, mortars, heavy machine guns, and anti­aircraft positions."

The lebanon war provoked intense debate within Israel. For the first time in Israel's history, a consensus for war did not exist (though it did at the outset). Prime Minister Menachem Begin resigned as demands for an end to the fighting grew louder. The national coalition government that took office in 1984 decided to withdraw from lebanon, leaving behind a token force to help the South Lebanese Army (which Israel had long supported) patrol a security zone near Israel's border.

Though the IDF succeeded in driving the plo out of lebanon, it did not end the terrorist threats from that country. The war was also costly, 1,216 soldiers died between June 5, 1982, and May 31, 1985.

Ongoing Violence

Jerusalem has repeatedly stressed that Israel does not covet a single inch of lebanese territory. Israel's 1985 withdrawal from lebanon confirmed that. The small 1,000-man Israeli force, deployed in a strip of territory extending eight miles into south lebanon, protected towns and villages in northern Israel from attack. Israel had repeatedly said it would completely withdraw from lebanon in return for a stable security situation on its northern border.

Most of the terrorist groups that threaten Israel have not been disarmed. For example, several thousand terrorists currently in lebanon are members of hezbollah. The group receives financial support and arms from iran, usually via damascus. hezbollah--which had initially confined itself to launching Katyusha rocket attacks on northern Israel and ambushing Israeli troops in the security zone--has in recent years stepped up its attacks on Israeli civilians.

In April 1995, the IDF mounted "Operation Grapes of Wrath" to halt hezbollah's bombardment of Israel's northern frontier. During the operation, Israeli artillery mistakenly hit a un base in kafr kana, killing nearly 100 civilians. Afterward, a joint monitoring machinery, including American, French, syrian, and lebanese representatives, was created to prohibit unprovoked attacks on civilian populations and the use of civilians as shields for terrorist activities.

The syrian-backed lebanese army has yet to take action against hezbollah, or other terrorist organizations, such as the popular front for the "liquidation" of palestine (pflp), popular front for the "liquidation" of palestine--general command (pflp-gc), or the democratic front for the "liquidation" of palestine (dflp), which have bases in the syrian-controlled Beka'a Valley in eastern lebanon. syria, in fact, declared its unqualified support for stepped­up violence in the area. Consequently, attacks against Israeli troops in the Security Zone and civilians in northern Israel continued.

Israel Withdraws

Israel pulled all its troops out of southern lebanon on May 24, 2000, ending a 22-year military presence there. All Israel Defense Forces and South Lebanon Army outposts were evacuated. The Israeli withdrawal was conducted in coordination with the un, and constituted an Israeli fulfillment of its obligations under security council resolution 425 (1978).
        

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: number 6
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 02:04 PM

Then why rag on Israel ... The U.S. has been manipulating many, many countries .... centre you protests on The Government of the U.S.A.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 01:59 PM

The USA has made the Israeli military one of the most powerful,formidable and most technologically advanced war machines in the world with its modern jet warplanes, apache helicopters and merkova tanks etc. The USA and the UK also helped turn Israel into a nuclear weapons state.

The USA has armed Israel because it has straegic and oil interests in the region which it intends to maintain and extend.Basically , the surrounding states have to do as they are told or else !

This benefits US capitalism and Zionist interests but has been a tragedy for the peoples of the region especially the Palestinians who have been expelled from their homeland,slaughtered in their refugee camps,surrounded and shelled in Gaza and terrorised and imprisoned on the West Bank.

There needs to be a proper just settlement which does not involve the Palestinians living in "bantustans" and imprisoned behind the disgusting apartheid wall which is so big it puts the Berlin Wall to shame.

The attack on Lebanon and the arrest of half the Hamas government is not going to resolve anything. While the Israeli government is still strutting its macho right wing politics ,despite the bloody nose it received in Southern Lebanon , there will be no moves to a lasting settlement and the Palestinians will continue to suffer and die.
Free Palestine!
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Old Guy
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 12:34 PM

I think Israel had not worsened or improved it's situation.

I think Hizbollah is winning a PR war on gullible people with the help of MSM.

Would you like have the US not help out Israel and have them wiped off of the map? Before that happens, they would use their nukes. Maybe that would be the final answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 08:38 AM

" Selective kidnappings and assassinations. Hell, learn from the masters."

They have done that ever since they started - with the ex-nazis...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: GUEST,jon
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 01:42 AM

Two elderly Lebanese men,aged 70 and 80 were held in chains on a military bus after beingin Lebanon by Israeli soldiers.They had to share the bus with Israeli soldiers but were eventually released as having no links to Hezbollah.Now that is what I call a war on terror!
jon

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 01:36 AM

reply to Peace
Its not just that Israel "buggered up the propoganda war".The monstrous and criminal bombing of civilans at Qana and the car convoys were there on our television screens night after night.That was the reality for the Lebanese ...and it was seen by millions across the world.
The Israeli military on the ground found the Hezbollah fighters formidable foes and from the reports I have read the Israeli reservists themselves are as mad as hell at the leaders who sent them into battle with the wrong tactics,the wrong equipment and lacking food and water.
The bombing of Lebanon was shameful and resulted in the deaths and maiming of many,many children.
This was a defeat for Israel on all counts although I think another attack , aided by the USA , is likely quite soon.
Ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Peace
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 11:20 PM

Just like Hezbollah and Hamas. We're onto something here, Bobad.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: bobad
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 11:18 PM

Hell, why not throw in a few suicide bombings of innocent civilians, that'd really show them.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Peace
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 11:14 PM

Israel has so frigged-up this war it's unreal. They have buggered the propaganda side, badly. Hezbollah has done wonders in that department. I think when things return to normal, Israel should pursue a path similar to that taken by Hamas and Hezbollah. Selective kidnappings and assassinations. Hell, learn from the masters. And Hezbollah and Hamas ARE the masters. If it's good enough for them it should be good enough for Israel, and I think then that no one will complain.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 11:08 PM

OK Old Guy--your wish is my command:

Goals

Hezbollah--wipe Israel off the map
Israel--survival

I don't think I have to provide a source since I suspect those are also the goals you believe each side has.

As I've said before--if you'd take some time out of your busy schedule of needless cut-and-paste to actually read what I've written--I fully support Israel's right to exist and to defend its borders.

But it would be better done with some intelligence--not the criminally stupid-- (I like that phrase)-- approach just taken--which has strengthened Hezbollah and therefore made the situation more, not less, dangerous. And I've already told you how. Please read what I've already written. The gist of it is that 1)   Israel has raised Hezbollah to superstar status--as the one Arab group that has fought the area's greatest military machine to a standstill and 2) Israel's policy of attacking all of Lebanon has alienated--needlessly--the majority of Lebanese--not just Shiites. I've given you a lot more detail in previous postings--if you're willing to read.

Now, I've answered your question--and directly. How about answering mine?

Once more:   In your judgment has Israel improved its situation by the recent war? If so, how? Can you answer the the question without cut-and-paste---for once?

Looking forward to your typically incisive and perceptive posting.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Peace
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 09:58 PM

"Israel has no regard for formalities like Ceasefires"

Part of the cease-fire deal was that the Lebanese Army (or UN force or mixture of both) would not allow Hezbollah to re-arm. Hezbollah, Lebanon and the friggin' UN broke the cease-fire deal.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 09:21 PM

" IDF attributed them to the ongoing destruction of Hezbollah weapons caches and unexploded rockets."

which means that the IDF has not 'ceased fire'...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Old Guy
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 08:53 PM

"to supposedly disrupt arms supply line"? It is more than a supposition.

"if Hezbollah raided deep into Israel to cut its arms supplies from the US" According to the ceasfire agreement, Hezbollah is supposed to disarm, Not Israel. Yes that would cause quite a furor.

So if Hezbollah is being rearmed unstead of disarmed, who the fuck is breaking the terms of the cease fire?


Who fired these mortars?:

The Israel Defense Forces reported that about four mortar rounds were fired inside southern Lebanon after the cease-fire, which went into effect early Monday. But none of them hit Israeli territory, and Israel decided not to respond, an IDF spokesman said. (Watch tensions remain as cease-fire begins -- 1:09)

Several small clashes between Hezbollah fighters and Israeli soldiers were also reported, in which at least six Hezbollah militants were killed. But so far, there have been no large-scale violations of the U.N.-brokered cease-fire.

Explosions were heard in southern Lebanon after nightfall, but the IDF attributed them to the ongoing destruction of Hezbollah weapons caches and unexploded rockets.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/08/14/mideast.main/index.html

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: bobad
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 07:37 PM

"prompting Hezbollah to fire as many of them as they could into Israel at an accelerated rate. That's one way of getting rid of the enemy's stockpiles"


A good place to start is to ask why, despite many televised threats from Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah, Hezbollah did not hit Tel Aviv. The answer is that using a combination of intelligence and technical means, Israel identified the location of Hezbollah's longer-range missiles and knocked them out with amazing speed and efficiency.

About 90 per cent of them were destroyed quickly in the war. Nasrallah could not deliver on what he considered to be his ultimate weapon.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 07:33 PM

"prompting Hezbollah to fire as many of them as they could into Israel at an accelerated rate. That's one way of getting rid of the enemy's stockpiles"

Yep, and then you can claim the Righteous Victim Underdog Status because you can claim that their unsophisticated weapons are 'targeting' anything...



Lose - Lose Situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 06:54 PM

Someone back along this lengthy thread pointed out that Israel destroyed large stockpiles of Hezbollah weapons (ie. rockets) - and indeed they did, by prompting Hezbollah to fire as many of them as they could into Israel at an accelerated rate. That's one way of getting rid of the enemy's stockpiles, I suppose.

I saw on the news yesterday that Isarel has already broken the terms of the Ceasfire by conducting a commando raid deep into Lebanon to supposedly disrupt arms supply line. Apart from the obvious furore that would be caused if Hezbollah raided deep into Israel to cut its arms supplies from the US, it demonstrates yet again how 1) Israel has no regard for formalities like Ceasefires, unless they happen to coincide with Israel's agenda and 2) Isarel has no regard for Lebanese sovereignty. These guys seem determined to keep a war going at all costs. I wonder now that the lebanese army is occupying the southern part of their country, if they will be able to prevail on Isarel to respect their sovereignty and pull out of the Shaaba farms. Don't hold your breath, though.

Meanwhile in Palestine, the West Bank and Gaza strip, Palestinian civilains continue to be killed in Isareli military incursions into refugee camps etc., in a side show to the main war.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 09:05 AM

Right, and Israel is massing it's troops and weapons on it's neighbour's borders and vowing to wipe them off the map.

I figured you were really referring to Hizbollah there in a sort of ironic way.

You don't have to have made the statement.

The question is: "Do you believe.........

Of course you are not obliged to answer....

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 07:28 AM

"In Sidon, we found part of the financial district flattened," you briefly see an image of what look like uncut sheets of U.S. hundred-dollar bills."

OK, now I understand WHY certain areas were bombed - makes much more sense that Israel helped out its "Big Brother" the USA using the alleged 'real reason' as cover.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Old Guy
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 01:38 AM

http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/?id=110008703

BY JAMES TARANTO
Tuesday, July 25, 2006 4:27 p.m. EDT

Funny Money?
A reader noticed something curious in a video from last night's "NBC Nightly News." Richard Engel, the network's Beirut bureau chief, is reporting from southern Lebanon, and at 1:07 in the video, as he's saying, "In Sidon, we found part of the financial district flattened," you briefly see an image of what look like uncut sheets of U.S. hundred-dollar bills.

Now, it's possible to buy uncut sheets from the Bureau of Engraving and Printing, at premiums ranging from 12.5% to 275% over face value--but apparently only in denominations of up to $50. Anyhow, somehow we doubt these were collectibles.

A Treasury Department press release dated June 10, 2004, reports that Hezbollah has been involved in counterfeiting American money:

    One of the most prominent and influential members of the Hizballah terrorist organization, along with two of his companies, was designated by the Treasury Department today under Executive Order 13224. Assad Ahmad Barakat has close ties with Hizballah leadership and has worked closely with numerous Islamic extremists and suspected Hizballah associates in South America's tri-border area (TBA), made up of Brazil, Paraguay and Argentina. . . .

    Barakat has also been involved in a counterfeiting ring that distributes fake U.S. dollars and generates cash to fund Hizballah operations. As of early 2001, Barakat was one of two individuals reportedly in charge of distribution and sale of the counterfeit currency in the TBA.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Old Guy
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 12:25 AM

I would rather have RD explain everything. It is fairly obvious that he has read everything and knows everything.

Please start with the stated goals of Hezbollah and Israel. And state your sources too.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: bobad
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 09:10 PM

"Bobad - do you honestly and sincerely believe that Hizbollah could wipe Israel off the face of the map?"

Dave, I can't seem to be able to find the post wherein I made that statement, would you be so kind as to direct me to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 07:46 PM

Bobad - do you honestly and sincerely believe that Hizbollah could wipe Israel off the face of the map? With what?

Now do you also honestly and sincerely believe that Israel will not invade another country and possibly wipe it off the map? With its aircraft, tanks, and nuclear bomb?

We both have different realities that's all, mine is based on facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 07:37 PM

It's not beyond belief that Hezbollah--with nuclear weapons--could wipe out Israel--but that's why any attempts to procure such weapons need to be closely watched. And it's therefore why Israel's attack on Lebanon generally (as opposed to a limited campaign to secure border territory)-- was criminally stupid---it has strengthened Hezbollah, in fact driven many former Hezbollah opponents into Hezbollah's camp--and weakened the anti-Hezbollah parties of the Lebanese government.

And I said so at the start of the war.

I questioned how many Germans had been convinced to desert Hitler by the firebombings of Dresden etc.--and how many had been just drawn together in adversity.   There is a parallel--in fact it's even worse in the Lebanon case.   Germans were not convinced to support Nazis by the firebombings--just to try to survive. But Hezbollah has positively benefited--and continues to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: bobad
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 07:04 PM

"As for Hizbollah building up an inventory of arms - bit like the USA supplying Israel really."

Right, and Israel is massing it's troops and weapons on it's neighbour's borders and vowing to wipe them off the map.

Get a grip on reality F**kiedave.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 06:56 PM

The idea the Hezbollah could wipe out Israel is ludicrous.

The idea that Israel might invade Lebanon.........not so daft.

As for Hizbollah building up an inventory of arms - bit like the USA supplying Israel really.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 05:07 PM

The Israelis may not have received an explicit go-ahead from the US for the massive attack after the kidnapping of the 2 soldiers---but they had already received the green light---months in advance.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: pdq
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 04:50 PM

"49 French troops that landed by inflatable dinghy"

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 04:47 PM

And what about the similarities between this situation and the start of World War I--any thoughts?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 04:46 PM

It pains me more than I can say to have to agree with an anonymous "Guest"--but you all should check a recent New Yorker article by Seymour Hersh--(Jewish, I believe, no?) on this topic.

Called "Watching Lebanon":   Quote: "Shabtai Shavit, a national-security advisor to the Knesset who headed the Mossad, Israel's foreign-intelligence service from 1989 to 1996, told me, "...It was just a matter of time. We had to address it" (attacking Hezbollah on a large scale).

And another: Said Yossi Melman, journalist for Ha'aretz: " The neocons in Washington may be happy but Israel did not need to be pushed, because Israel has been wanting to get rid of Hezbollah. By provoking Israel, Hezbollah provided that opportunity."

Yet another: "Earlier this summer, before the Hezbollah kidnappings, the US goverment consultant said, several Israeli officials visited Washington separately, "to get a green light for the bombing operation and to find out how much the United States would bear. Israel began with Cheney...After that, persuading Bush was never a problem."

If you don't believe this, please say exactly why.

As I said earlier, Hezbollah miscalculated. But then so did Israel--and the latter was far more serious.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: number 6
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 04:02 PM

Guest would certainly not show their true identity with those statements ... and I wonder why. Sad that that post has been left to publicy smear this site with hate.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Peace
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 02:51 PM

"Come to think of it I wish the Jerries had wiped the evil bastards off the face of the earth."

That remark comes from someone who has been posting as GUEST for many moons now. This sick sonuvabitch is quite capable with the English language--I don't doubt he has a degree from a university, because from many of his posts months back he demonstrates that his skills with grammar, diction and punctuation are excellent. This recent stuff he posts simply disguises a deep hatred of Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Peace
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 02:45 PM

That would explain why Hezbollah built up an inventory of war materiel.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 02:12 PM

well lets not kid ourselves that the invasion started because of the capture of 2 Israeli soldiers...it was planned months ago and given the green light by Bush.
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Old Guy
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 01:58 PM

Obvious to who?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 07:00 AM

And do you recall how World War I started? There are striking similarities.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 06:58 AM

Old Guy--

And by the way, I'd be curious to hear your take on it: did the Israelis bolster their position by dramatically escalating the conflict in the recent war--which started as a series of border clashes?

Yes or no?

And if yes--exactly how?

And please give your sources--and your own thoughts.

The topic is actually very worthwhile--and a civil debate--as disinguished from a slagging match or a cut-and-paste war--should in fact be possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 06:51 AM

Old Guy---it's fairly obvious.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 03:46 AM

I have noted that the Mudcat rule on lengthy "cut and pastes" on non-music subjects has one noticeable exception.

And that claque has the audacity to level hostility and accusations at anybody who does not "toe the party line"!

Says it all really, I need say no more...


Mr Cynic.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Slag
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 02:23 AM

See what happens when I turn my back for a few moments??? You all just go ALL OVER THE PLACE. I can't begin to repond to all the specious, ludicrous, asinine, self-serving, illogical, propagandistic, dopey, dumb, deceitful, duplicitous remarks: And that just Guest ifor!! For a lot of you I recommend lessons in Arabic because whether its Hezbolla, Hamas, Al Qaeda or some other group...! LH, remember Christianity. It was 12, then 24, then 5000 +, then back to 12 then 3,2,1 then NONE, then 1, then 2,4, 12, 120, 500, 5000, and away it went, millions! ifor, are you intentionally ignoring the history of the Jews and the Diaspora? The fact that Hadrian created "Palestine" when he murderously and forcefully evicted the Jews from THEIR homeland??

Guest DB is not behaving as a very nice guest. Your remark demonstrates clear anti-semitism and an absysmal comprehension of Christianity. You parrot Hitler's utterly fallacious contention that it was the Jews who were the "Christ-killers".

Here's a little different take on the whole affair and I apologize before hand: I just skimmed the enteries since my last post to this thread so someone may have suggested this already. Israel in the past has always taken immediate and necessary steps to eliminated those who attack her regardless of world opinion. The current regime, however reflects the more liberal Jews and they have taken the weak-willed, namby-pamby George Bush, et al ( et al being every US President back to the post-atomic bomb Truman) approach of stopping short of victory. This means just checking your enemy and then allowing him to go free. In WWII the US under MacArthur in the Pacific theater, DEFEATED Japan and forced an unconditional surender. This meant that Japan faced utter, total annihilation if they didn't cede to OUR terms. They did and we were magnanimous. Their country, ours and the world benefited from our victory. Unfortunately in Europe we stopped short (Eisenhauer, the first RINO) and Eastern Europe suffered and the Western World was dragged into the Cold War and all the evils THAT spawned. Ever since, all "wars", police actions and conflicts have solved NOTHING. They have left enemies and hatreds, old and new to foment and fester and so for that we are a weaker power by half at least and the world is a powderkeg. I don't LIKE war. I hate it but by not concluding a war we or, as in this case, Israel, still has the initial problem PLUS added animosity from those who were undecided, who suffered collateral damage, death and destruction. Believe me Hezbolla would not have hesitated had they really had the advatage the claimed after the Israeli action. They would have told the World that black was white and kept right on killing and destroying were they able or had any inkling that victory could have been theirs. I have to admire them for that. They know what they are about.

Back in the late sixties and early seventies the Oakland Raiders had quite a (an American) football team. They played their hearts out every minute and the last two minutes of a Raiders game was a delight. But as their successes mounted and they began to dominate earlier in the game they adopted something that was coming into vogue called the "Prevent Defense" where you'd get an advantage, a lead and then sit on- play tepid, defensive football- and hope you could last it out to the final clock. No more desparation football, no more razzle-dazzle, no more George Blanda and Daryl Lamonica and ultimately, no more wins. Not very exciting football ( I know, Ken Stabler, etc. but I'm trying to make a point here, OK?). Well maybe I shouldn't have picked a spectator sport for an analogy. War is no "sport" and the outcome is infinitely more serious. Stopping half way or using half-hearted measures serve no one but an enemy in waiting.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Old Guy
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 12:50 AM

How do you know what I spend my time doing oh learned one?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Aug 06 - 12:25 PM

DB--your pal Goebbels is calling you home to join him.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Aug 06 - 12:21 PM

Old Guy--

Next time how about a blue clicky instead? Too bad you didn't spend your time actually reading what you posted--you might learn something.