BS: Calais. What to do?

Subject: RE: BS: Calais. What to do?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 01:31 PM

Disagree with GregF

Main cause of "thread degeneration"

1.Jim Carroll
2.Dave the Gnome
3.Greg F
4.Musket (in all his iterations)
5.Steve Shaw
6.GUEST Raggytash

Subject: RE: BS: Calais. What to do?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 01:18 PM

Just watched the B.B.C. news from Britain - very heartening to see an ordinary looking working man with a placard demanding that the immigrants be let in and saying the Government is wrong to behave the way that it is.
Humanity still lurks somewhere out there - who knows, mayybe some of it will rub off on the politicians and the press!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Calais. What to do?
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 01:01 PM

the root causes of "thread degeneration"

Offhand, there are three:

1. Keith of AH
2. Aakenaton
3. Guest From Insanity

Subject: RE: BS: Calais. What to do?
From: Amos
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 12:27 PM

Does anyone here have any ideas about the root causes of "thread degeneration" where conversation slides down hill into the sort of mad-bird ad hominem chatter and quibbling seen, for example, in this thread? What causes that?

As for workable solutions, perhaps the art of managing large numbers of displaced persons has been forgotten since 1946, but I am sure there are records of how it was done.

Political will to do is (as always) another matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Calais. What to do?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 11:08 AM

"I don't know why I bother opening such threads"
Then why bother opening such threads?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Calais. What to do?
From: gnu
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 11:03 AM

I don't know why I bother opening such threads. SSDD.

Subject: RE: BS: Calais. What to do?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 10:44 AM

Missed a bit
"and who's "homophobic"
You are, and noted for it with your "unnatural" and "gay plague" and "destroying the family".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Calais. What to do?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 10:39 AM

Try
"But since you asked - the first thing is to be aware of our country's role in what is happening in the world today instead of criminalising people who are in trouble
Our various Governments have had a part in creating the situation that exists in the world today - if it is beyond our control as ordinary human beings to force them to take responsibility for their policies, it says much about 'democracy'."
Or
"Our various Governments have had a part in creating the situation that exists in the world today - if it is beyond our control as ordinary human beings to force them to take responsibility for their policies, it says much about 'democracy'."

"It's often forgotten that we contribute to these appalling conditions by selling weapons to various tyrants, or propping up dictators because they make the "right" political noises, or by buying cheap imports produced by virtual slave labour - not to mention the mess we left many of these countries when Britain lost its empire.
It's a bit daunting to think that the next wave of refugees could well be those fleeing from our (now) ally, Assad, or from his opponents, Isis, whose successes owe much to the failure of the West and the U.N.O. to assist people who wanted to change things for the better in these dictatorships. "
"The rest is just childish abuse and name calling,"
Name calling to the minimum and very much two sides Ak"
I'm a retired electrician with no power or experience to actually suggest or do anything to resolve a problem that has been evolving for the best part of my life time - All any of us are in a position to do is try to understand it pressurise those who are supposed to represent us do their job with a little understanding annd humanity DO ANY OF YOU GENIUSES HAVE A QUICK-FIX SOLUTION TO WHAT'S HAPPENING IN CALAIS - APART FROM - SEND THEM ALL BACK, THAT IS? - NO? - THOUGHT NOT
For those with selective dyslexia I repeat - As I see it, as things stand, there is no quick fix and things are going to get a lot worse before they improve (if they ever do).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Calais. What to do?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 10:01 AM

Try reading some back posts.!!
If that was about Jim answering the question then I already did. All I can find other than what akenaton picked up was Might be a good start by treating teh people concernd as human beings instead of problems or criminals

A. So far I we hear on the news the French are not charging then with criminal damage or anything else, so they are not being treated as criminals.
B. Criminals are human beings
C. Human beings can be problems.

Subject: RE: BS: Calais. What to do?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 09:06 AM

Subject: BS: Stalin
From: GUEST,Raggytash - PM
Date: 23 Jul 15 - 09:19 AM

Here you are, off you go.

That was Rag's OP!

Subject: RE: BS: Calais. What to do?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 09:06 AM

Try reading some back posts.!!

Subject: RE: BS: Calais. What to do?
From: GUEST,better fence
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 09:00 AM

Jim hasn't answered the question. He has just done what Keith probably expected - gone on and on about the woes of the past and what other people are doing wrong. Just like any other armchair politician.

It's fairly common on the internet to start a discussion canvassing for views and not giving your own. So long as you give your own views eventually I don't think it counts as troll-like activity.

Subject: RE: BS: Calais. What to do?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 08:58 AM

Rag, may I remind you that you started the Stalin thread without expressing any view, interest or knowledge of the subject, in the OP or the whole thread, and at one point demanded to know what books I had read on the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Calais. What to do?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 08:50 AM

A bit rich Akenaton. Someone posts a thread, doesn't give his opinion (that will be in Sundays Mail or Express) demands that someone else, in this case Jim, gives chapter and verse and you think that that is OK. Why not go back to the original poster and ask them for the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Calais. What to do?
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 08:33 AM

"As I see it, as things stand, there is no quick fix and things are going to get a lot worse before they improve (if they ever do)."

That's the only lame attempt I see in any of your posts Jim?

The rest is just childish abuse and name calling, the fact that you don't "like" Keith is neither here nor there, give us your views on the issue, what's to be done??

Subject: RE: BS: Calais. What to do?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 08:17 AM

"You still haven't answered Keith's question Jim "
Yes I have - though not directly in response to him (prefer to give to mental health research rather than deal directly with the patients)- get somebody to read you what I have written.
Off colour? - anti-immigration and homophobia is as far "off-colour" as it gets as far as I'm concerned.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Calais. What to do?
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 08:03 AM

You still haven't answered Keith's question Jim and I don't think Mrs Clinton is any sort of joke, even the slightly off colour one attempted by you.

Subject: RE: BS: Calais. What to do?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 07:53 AM

""Oh fuck off" is not a reasonable response to Keith's perfectly reasonable question."
It wasn't a question - it was an attempt to save face after having humiliated himself elsewhere.
Go read what he wrote.
Your simplistic "encouraging cheap labour from Eastern Europe" doesn't begin to deal with the situation here - in fact it is one of the on-going 'fortress Britain' arguments for keeping immigrants out.
You want 'cheap labour' dealt with - then demand a living wage instead of the unlivable minimum wage that various governments have adopted and not even enforced - don't put the blame on people who come to Britain to earn a living, just as many Brits go abroad to better their lot (this time, without a standing army to protect them).
What's this thing with Mrs C - turn you down for a quickie, did she?
The Middle East and North Africa were destabilised in one way or another centuries before she was a twinkle - oil being one of the dominant factors (unless, of course, Dubya the Braindead and Tony the Tory had fallen for her charms without our knowing).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Calais. What to do?
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 07:36 AM

"Oh fuck off" is not a reasonable response to Keith's perfectly reasonable question. I am sure the question was posed to determine the various views of the membership.

I like the responses of the CAPITAL letters GUEST, but even he/she finds it hard to come up with anything positive.
We are in a huge mess, instigated by the destabilisation of the Middle East and North Africa and exacerbated by our policy of encouraging cheap labour from Eastern Europe, rather than a programme of renewal in UK society and economy.

Only a complete change in social and political policy can reverse the disintegration that we see in our society.....and that means an end to "liberalism" and more personal responsibility for the direction of society......Unpopular I'm sure, but inevitable if the problems of the West are to be resolved.

To Ebbie...As you know, I live in the UK but I do try to keep abreast of US politics. If you have not worked out what the Clintons are up to and especially the character of Mrs Clinton, I suggest you do the same.

Mrs Clinton was the power behind the destabilisation of a large part of the Middle East and North Africa....especially Libya, and her chortling antics on the murder of Gadaffi were simply obscene.
Her involvement in the misrule of Iraq after Saddam is verifiable.

Mr Trump is a joke, typical of US politics, Mrs Clinton is something else :0(

Subject: RE: BS: Calais. What to do?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 06:39 AM

"Oh Fuck off!!"
Please don't abuse the afflicted - it's not Christian!
"climate change? "
Interesting thought Shimmy - as long as you remember that climate change is largely due to corporate greed and abuse in order to keep SUVs on the road and sell us Supersoft tissues to wipe our bums.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Calais. What to do?
From: Will Fly
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 06:28 AM

OK Keith - you made the original post. You posited the question: "Any other ideas?"

What would you do about it, assuming you had the power?

Let's have some of your own thoughts, rather than just a stream of contradictions and yet more questions.

Subject: RE: BS: Calais. What to do?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 06:28 AM

This is just the start! The slide into chaos begins!

I just wonder how many of the conflicts now raging in the Middle East and North and East Africa have their foundations in environmental degradation and climate change? I believe that before the civil war started in Syria there were at least two failed harvests. Apparently harvests are still failing there but the the underlying causes are masked by the chaos of war. Many of these countries are divided on tribal and religious lines and, in the past, most of these factions managed to live side by side in relative harmony. But now, as populations grow ever larger, soils degrade, water becomes scarcer and the climate becomes more unstable, these societies are beginning to fracture along their traditional 'fault lines' as the various factions fight over dwindling resources. Many people are being displaced by brutal wars and are trying to escape to a better life elsewhere in the rich west (and who can blame them?). As climate change begins to bite these problems will get worse and worse with no end in sight. The world will become ungovernable.

Subject: RE: BS: Calais. What to do?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 06:12 AM

smug, 'fortress Britain' attitude advocated by some of the "walls" on this forum

You are just making shit up again Jim.
No such attitude has been expressed by anyone here.

I am sure Comrade Stalin would have known what to do with them.
Why not have a look through your copy of Deutscher's biography and find something?

If only you had it or ever read it!
Want to borrow mine?

Subject: RE: BS: Calais. What to do?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 06:10 AM

Things are getting better in Africa quite quickly Jim. I reckon that in few decades they may manage to feed themselves, produce enough power and make most of the stuff that they buy from us and the Chinese.

The UK will never do that. We are sunk. Africans wanting to come here is a short term problem for us - soon they won't want to.

Subject: RE: BS: Calais. What to do?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 05:51 AM

"You are not answering Keith's question Jim."
Stopped talking to walls - birthday resolution.
But since you asked - the first thing is to be aware of our country's role in what is happening in the world today instead of criminalising people who are in trouble
Our various Governments have had a part in creating the situation that exists in the world today - if it is beyond our control as ordinary human beings to force them to take responsibility for their policies, it says much about 'democracy'.
I am sickened by the smug, 'fortress Britain' attitude advocated by some of the "walls" on this forum - especially from the ones who declare themselves "Christians".
As I see it, as things stand, there is no quick fix and things are going to get a lot worse before they improve (if they ever do).
One thing is certain, the present bunch of shyster politicians are going to do SFA about cleaning up their act over weapons sales and friendly relations with the monsters who create this refugee problem unless people speak up about it.
It's interesting the British Home Secretary, Queen of the May, has been embarrassed into reversing her department's decision to deport Chinese dissident, Ai Weiwei from Britain folloowing adverse publicity - stranger things have happened at sea!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Calais. What to do?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 05:33 AM

Neither are you guest (?)

In the short term build better fences.

In the long term help (or stop hindering as the case may be) their home countries develop economies that will give them opportunites at home.

There are 1.2 billion people Africa, the majority of them living on few dollars per day. The ones that get to Calais as economic migrants are not from that majority. Somehow they have raised the cash to get to and across Europe and to feed themselves at French shop prices. They are not the ones I feel sorry for or feel a sense of responsibility towards.

They are probably very smart and resourceful so the few that get through may, in the long term contribute to our economy. If they don't get into crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Calais. What to do?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 05:30 AM

Don't remember it when we lived in Britain, but Ireland is a great country for charitable causes

The Independent,
"Britain is the most generous developed nation in the world when it comes to giving to charity, according to a report out today.

More than three quarters of Britons give to good causes in a typical month, the highest proportion of any developed country surveyed. According to The World Giving Index,"
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/britain--the-most-charitable-developed-nation-in-the-world-8978545.html

Subject: RE: BS: Calais. What to do?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 04:56 AM

Neither are you guest (?)

Subject: RE: BS: Calais. What to do?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 04:45 AM

You are not answering Keith's question Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Calais. What to do?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 04:36 AM

So are they young adventurers with a "get rich or die trying" approach to life ?

No.
They are young men driven by poverty to despair and with no other hope.
There are many millions just like them in Africa, Middle East and Asia.
What can we do?

Subject: RE: BS: Calais. What to do?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 04:33 AM

"So are they young adventurers with a "get rich or die trying" approach to life ?"
Seems to be the attitude of some people here (and in Government)
Don't remember it when we lived in Britain, but Ireland is a great country for charitable causes and we are forever being asked to donate to causes, such as providing water to countries suffering from cholera and dysentery, or towards refugees being driven from their homes by wars.
It's often forgotten that we contribute to these appalling conditions by selling weapons to various tyrants, or propping up dictators because they make the "right" political noises, or by buying cheap imports produced by virtual slave labour - not to mention the mess we left many of these countries when Britain lost its empire.
It's a bit daunting to think that the next wave of refugees could well be those fleeing from our (now) ally, Assad, or from his opponents, Isis, whose successes owe much to the failure of the West and the U.N.O. to assist people who wanted to change things for the better in these dictatorships.
Best to wash our hands of it all and pretend it's "nuffin' to do with us, eh?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Calais. What to do?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 03:11 AM

If you look at the news film, they are overwhelmingly young males.

So are they young adventurers with a "get rich or die trying" approach to life ?

Subject: RE: BS: Calais. What to do?
From: Ed T
Date: 31 Jul 15 - 09:05 PM

"there are assholes on both sides of the border"



Not far from Calais, the lobster pot boils 

Subject: RE: BS: Calais. What to do?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 31 Jul 15 - 08:54 PM

Let them come in......

They are talented, they work hard, and they will work for 1/3 the minimum wage.

They are the great equalizer.....to Labor's demand for higher wages.
Your gardens will be weed free.
Your toilets will sparkle.


Sincerely,
Gargoyle

beware the "anchor baby."

Subject: RE: BS: Calais. What to do?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jul 15 - 05:25 PM

Are there any unbiased estimates as to what proportion of these migrants are asylum seekers, what proportion are refugees and what proportion are commercial migrants ?

If you look at the news film, they are overwhelmingly young males.
It seems unlikely they would abandon their families in a dangerous place.

Having arrived at Calais, they are already in a safe country and have travelled through other safe countries.

Might be a good start by treating teh people concernd as human beings instead of problems or criminals

That would be the French authorities then Jim.
What should they do to treat them as human beings?
What should they do?

Subject: RE: BS: Calais. What to do?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jul 15 - 05:19 PM

From what my lad tells me I think it is the same in New Brunswick as well, bobad, And the St Croix river is the 'Saint Crocks' or something similar.

Subject: RE: BS: Calais. What to do?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 15 - 05:18 PM

"Calais. What to do?"
Might be a good start by treating teh people concernd as human beings instead of problems or criminals
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Calais. What to do?
From: bobad
Date: 31 Jul 15 - 04:17 PM

The Calais in Maine, is pronounced "Callous" by USians FYI.

Subject: RE: BS: Calais. What to do?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 15 - 03:58 PM

"Salmon are born to roam free"

Not the (aqua) cultured type-they are best contained.

Subject: RE: BS: Calais. What to do?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 15 - 03:14 PM

"No need for you to worry Jim. None of them want to go to Ireland."
Actually - plenty of "them" come to Ireland and by and large, are made welcome.
Ireland has just held yet another official ceremony welcoming new citizens from abroad.
Some of those who are unfortunate enough to end in the British bit have problems though - serves them right, I say!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Calais. What to do?
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 Jul 15 - 02:58 PM

"landlocked salmon" sounds gross. Salmon are born to roam free...

"God help America if that creature is elected President." ake What creature is that, ake? As the Musket said, I can't imagine what the USA and "laughing Hillary the Hawk" have to do with this issue, or your country at the moment, for that matter. More incoherent than usual, ake.

Nigel Farage is a Trumpish equivalent? Hard to imagine.

Subject: RE: BS: Calais. What to do?
From: Stanron
Date: 31 Jul 15 - 02:46 PM

No need for you to worry Jim. None of them want to go to Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Calais. What to do?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 15 - 02:27 PM

"there is a swarm of migrants in Calais itching to get into the UK by whatever means they can find!!!"
Horrors - not foreigners, surely!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Calais. What to do?
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Jul 15 - 02:21 PM

God help America if that creature is elected President.

You obviously haven't been paying attention to the clown car full of moronic Republican presidential hopefuls, Ake.

Subject: RE: BS: Calais. What to do?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Jul 15 - 01:57 PM

Whatever you say, there is a swarm of migrants in Calais itching to get into the UK by whatever means they can find!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Calais. What to do?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 15 - 01:24 PM

By asylum seekers I mean people who actually need asylum.

Subject: RE: BS: Calais. What to do?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 15 - 01:22 PM

Are there any unbiased estimates as to what proportion of these migrants are asylum seekers, what proportion are refugees and what proportion are commercial migrants ? I think that should influence how they are dealt with.

Subject: RE: BS: Calais. What to do?
From: GUEST,Musket entente cordiale
Date: 31 Jul 15 - 11:48 AM

Well whatever the answer is, it will be a combination of initiatives where both countries work together. Stupidity from Nigel Farage and the deputy mayor of Calais are unhelpful to say the least.

The ferry workers aren't exactly helping matters either. A huge tyre fire to try to prevent ferries working? Their beef is that their employer lost a contract as the Port of Dover has issued it elsewhere. Taking up valuable police presence isn't the best way to remonstrate given the events just down the road.

If anyone has any idea what The US president election has to do with this, pray tell? On second thoughts, don't bother.

Oh, for any bemused Americans - Nigel Farage is our version of your Donald Trump. Slightly more eloquent but just as nasty.

Subject: RE: BS: Calais. What to do?
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Jul 15 - 11:29 AM

Considering that France and the UK were instrumental in the setting up of democratic regimes all over the middle East and North Africa, I don't see how we can keep them out when they find the type of "democracy" they actually got is not to their liking.

The people who produced this mess are Cameron, Hague and laughing Hillary the Hawk......."We came, we saw.....he died!"......he he he!

God help America if that creature is elected President.
Mr Obama tried hard to remain disengaged.

Subject: RE: BS: Calais. What to do?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jul 15 - 11:28 AM

My youngest son walked across the bridge from St Stephen to Calais. Never got his visa stamped or whatever it is going back to Canada so the USA probably think he is still there nearly 10 years later! He isn't BTW...