Mediation and its definition in folk music

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 04:21 PM

With apologies if it annoys, but I think this post from Jack Campin is informative

From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Feb 20 - 06:41 AM

I just looked up mediation and related words in the OED. Seems the original mediator was Jesus Christ mediating between God and Man; later applied to the Pope's role; and it is first used in something like Harker's sense by Chaucer, describing his role as a scientific popularizer in his treatise on the astrolabe.


I remembered it when looking at the SOED. None of the definitions really fit.

I am left thinking that in the widest sense it is 'being between' or 'placing oneself between' two parties to convey some information or idea.

Jack quotes Harker "By mediation I mean not just simply the fact that people passed on songs … but that in the very process of so doing their own assumptions, attitudes, likes and dislikes may well have significantly determined what they looked for, accepted and rejected." but I think Harker's actual usage should go on", how they edited it and the way in which they selected from it, presented it or explained it."

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 03:52 PM

I'm not fully clear myself whether we are using the term in its widest sense which you only need to go to a cheap dictionary for. Starship's 11 a.m. post covers it pretty well but doesn't cover all the bases. Let us take a simple example of any singer, traditional or otherwise who learns a song. Just that simple process must be to some degree 'mediating' that song in a myriad of possible ways, alter a word, a tone, a length of a note. To some degree that person is changing it, consciously or unconsciously, which is 'mediation'. Similarly a collector, recorder of some information, even using the best recorder in the world, is by taking it from one habitat to another 'mediating' said item, and in other ways as well. As I said it's a matter of opinion whether that might be a negative act or a positive one. If this isn't clear, Steve, please ask any questions, or even challenge what I've written.

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 03:46 PM

I don't think it is clear from Jack's quote of Harker because that is not consistant with what Jack said about Chaucer " 'mediating' astro-navigational theory for a popular audience". The quote from Harker only covers the collecting end but in Fakesong Harker seems to include the presentation - which is more like what Jack says Chaucer was doing.

I'm not going to read it again to check but the impression I came away from with Fakesong is that mediation comes up over and over again because a main theme is collecting from the 'prolitariat' and presenting to 'bourgoisie' - the whole process. The mediation is where the faking comes in no "may well have" in the "siginificantly determined."

Which reduces the usefulness of the term and leads people to regarding it as prejudicial or a "threat". And leads to a discussion about something that should be clearer.

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 03:12 PM

Kick us off then, Joe. Give us that solid definition. Then it might transpire that those outside this peculiar in-crowd might just know what y'all are talking about...

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 03:08 PM

I certainly think that "mediation" is an appropriate topic for discussion. I think that any time a collector collects, some amount of mediation takes place - that collector is the one who "mediates." It always exists when collecting takes place, but the matter to be discussed is the level of mediation, and the effect that the mediation has.
Certainly a valid topic for discussion.
Jack Campin's definition of mediation above is a pretty good place to start.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 03:05 PM

Surely the meaning of 'mediation' is crystal clear as expressed above by Jack I think. There is nothing sinister about it. It can be used positively and negatively, even neutrally and can be applied to any musical process. I just can't see any problem and am astounded it is even being discussed.

I also believe it can be applied to a conscious act or an unconscious one but perhaps that is something worth discussing?

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 02:59 PM

Does anyone know what this thread is supposed to be about?

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 02:43 PM

I was at a second-hand book store years back and it advertised itself as purveyors of the finest literature. Of course, in the process of purveying such literature, someone made a decision as to what qualified as literature. I expect some collectors are 'better' than others, although the meaning of better in that context will likely mean different things to different people, perhaps dependent on what they intend doing with the product or their reason(s) for reading the stuff in the first place.

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 02:27 PM

So is David Harker mediating when he selects material which supports his overall thesis?

He says in the intro to "One for the Money" that he is trying his best to make his ideological position clear but also to present the facts in a way that is not coloured by that - so that anyone coming after can use his historical account regardless of their intentions. I think he comes reasonably close to achieving that, and his book is certainly the better because he tried to. (His history has a lot of stuff you will almost certainly never have thought of. Did you know that after WW2, because of shortages, people used to return used 78s so the shellac could be recycled when they bought a new one?)

A dictionary will get its descriptions of what words mean from actual usage. Harker's books would be one place they could get their information. There is no point in looking to a dictionary when he's perfectly clear about what his words mean. Playing "yah boo sucks you got the dictionary meaning wrong" over terms of art is just puerile.

You really want a definition based on a translation of Adorno? What use would it be?

Subject: RE: Mediation and it's definition in folk m
From: Stanron
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 02:00 PM

There seems to be two areas of mediation being discussed. The artist (?) mediates between the material and his audience and the collector mediates between the source material and the collectors target audience or recipients.

So is David Harker mediating when he selects material which supports his overall thesis?

When I go to a dictionary for a definition I get a short, precise sentence or maybe a couple of sentences.

In one or two sentences can anyone define 'mediation musical'?

Subject: RE: Mediation and it's definition in folk m
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 01:59 PM

@Pseudonymous. I am suggesting that 'mediator' is a wider term than 'collector' (and 'editor', 'giver of talks on folk music', 'music producer' etc)

Subject: RE: Mediation and it's definition in folk m
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 01:50 PM

Jag: I'm not clear whether you are suggesting that notebooks and tapes would not be things made by 'mediators' even if these, or selections from them, were then presented to the public?

Subject: RE: Mediation and it's definition in folk m
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 12:45 PM

Sorry, 12:22 PM was me. I'll continue

I have no problem with Alfred Williams, Cecil Sharp, Alan Lomax and Jim Carroll being described as mediators in the context of them being between sources and recipients. But in the context of what did or did not get into Sharp's notebooks or onto Jim's tapes - and why - I think 'collector' is a better term because it is more specific to the relevant process.

Subject: RE: Mediation and it's definition in folk m
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 12:22 PM

"For a trivial example, the systematic euphemistic substitutions you see for obscenities. That is part of editing, which I think is a better word because it is more specific.

I agree the concept is useful as a wider term, especially as 'mediator', but Harker's definition as quoted above only covers the collecting side of things. It doesn't include euphemistic substitutions or selective dissemination for a wider audience.

Subject: RE: Mediation and it's definition in folk m
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 12:10 PM

"The very act of recording someone singing"
This depends entirely on the relationship between the singer and collector
We recorded our singers for as long as we could manage
We recorded Walter over twenty years - he became a close friend and I believe what we got from him was 'natural' - we have his the recording he made of himself before he was ever 'discovered' which confirms that belief
We recorded Kerry Traveller Mikeen McCarthy regularly fro, 1975 to his death in 2005 - Mikeen was another family friend , as was Tipperary Traveller, Mary Deleney and Clare singer, Tom Lenihan - all important sources of information on singing styles and functions

One of the things we found fro Mikeen was how some singers altered their singing to suit their particular surroundings - street singing and ballad selling required one approach, singing in noisy pubs, another - singing on the site was entirely different to both - he referred to it as 'fireside style'

Personally, I love singing and sing all the time (often to the annoyance of Pat) but I cannot bear to listen to my recorded voice - I never have
Maccoll once told us that he could not listen to any of his early recordings
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Mediation and it's definition in folk m
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 11:47 AM

Because the word draws attention to something systematic that can be examined - the ways in which matters personal to the collector might influence what the listening and reading public ends up with. This won't be random noise, they'll be present in everything the collector does, at least at the same time for the same project. For a trivial example, the systematic euphemistic substitutions you see for obscenities.

Subject: RE: Mediation and it's definition in folk m
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 11:11 AM

So why not use the words like 'collecting' and 'editing' and if we have something to say about how they were done then say it.

Subject: RE: Mediation and it's definition in folk m
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 11:00 AM

When an outsider enters the picture, the picture changes. Something like the Hawthorne effect in anthropology. The very act of recording someone singing can change how the singer approaches a song and thus presents it. We know that because it happens. People who have recorded songs know that it's a good take so far. Enter that thought and suddenly the singer's BP is up a bit, breathing goes funny and the take ends up being junk only fit for the editing-room floor. Remember the first time you heard your voice after it had been recorded. A majority of people say, "That's not me," or "My voice doesn't sound like that." Intermediaries inevitably affect the material they are recording. It seems to be ubiquitous in all forms of human interaction, and I don't really understand why we'd expect this area of human endeavor to be substantially different. YMMV, and that's cool with me.

Subject: RE: Mediation and it's definition in folk m
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 10:48 AM

crossed with Jim

Subject: RE: Mediation and it's definition in folk m
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 10:46 AM

I think the threat is where the pattern of usage insinuates that the "may well have" could be left out.

In the natural sciences the need to think about sampling bias is so much a given that the word 'collecting' is usually adequate.

Subject: RE: Mediation and it's definition in folk m
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 10:37 AM

They/we looked for folk songs - simple as that, the fact that Sharp defined pretty clearly what he meant by folk songs excuses him from not inclding all the other stuff that was circulating at the time
Harker's "may well" is indicative that it is his assumption and his alone that the collectors own tastes affected what was collected - as he never discussed the songs or the singers he had no grounds for making such a claim
Hoist on his own petard - I think
Later work has proved beyond a shred of doubt that the singers Identified with and took ownership of the songs they and as being 'local' or 'Norfolk' or Scots.... (or wherever they might have originated) tends to vindicate Sharp's decision as being pretty accurate
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Mediation and it's definition in folk m
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 10:35 AM

Or perhaps I should have said involuntary nocturnal wotsits.

Subject: RE: Mediation and it's definition in folk m
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 10:35 AM

And very odd indeed to suppose it had anything to do with onanism.

Subject: RE: Mediation and it's definition in folk m
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 10:19 AM

To repeat Harker's definition:

By mediation I mean not just simply the fact that people passed on songs … but that in the very process of so doing their own assumptions, attitudes, likes and dislikes may well have significantly determined what they looked for, accepted and rejected.

Perfectly straightforward idea and you'd have to be pretty insecure to find it threatening.

Subject: RE: Mediation and it's definition in folk m
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 10:07 AM

"I really don't want to get involved with the Jim Carroll show."
That's aright - I'll come to you
This is about no-called defintion - the show is by the multi-poster who posts nine-in-a-line (see last examples on closed thread)

"mediation" -is the invented 'wet-dream' of academics who wish to prove that the working people were incapable of making up their own minds about their own culture

Singers continued to learn and fill-out their own songs while they continued to sing - as Walter Pardon proved with 'Dark Arches' a family song his uncle's refused to teach him in full because of its 'dirty' nature
That is not 'mediation' in anybody's description
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Mediation and it's definition in folk m
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 09:47 AM

Just to clarify: the thread on singers and their sources states that the term mediation has been used too much in the past, it does not appear to be a thread about mediation or intended to discuss mediation.

To offer a few ideas to Stanron's question:

The use of the term 'mediation' in discourse about folk music pre-dates the work of David Harker. The earliest example I found was, I think, a piece by Vic Gammon, whose supervisor was a historian, so the term seems to have come into discussions of songs and musical practices of the past via history. I think the details are on the Fakesong thread.

The dictionary definition which to me comes closest to the general idea is defn no 2 in the OED: Agency or action as an intermediary.

Harker's introduction explains the way he uses the term. Here is one quotation from it, but to get a better idea of the approach he takes it is probably better to read the introduction and/or the book itself.

'By mediation I mean not just simply the fact that people passed on songs … but that in the very process of so doing their own assumptions, attitudes, likes and dislikes may well have significantly determined what they looked for, accepted and rejected.'

The thread on Harker had some interesting points on mediation and diverged into discussion of the work of various mediators, especially Cecil Sharp.

Subject: RE: Mediation and it's definition in folk m
From: Stanron
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 09:42 AM

I really don't want to get involved with the Jim Carroll show. I'm more interested with the word, and it is fascinating stuff.

Following from Jack Campin's post I get that the subject of the link is not at all straightforward. So I tried looking at Chaucer's words;

http://sites.fas.harvard.edu/~chaucer/glossar.htm

The nearest is 'mediatour' which seems to be an obsolete form of, you guessed it, mediator. Am I right to assume that in the musical context it means 'a person who explains'? Is it that simple?

Subject: RE: Mediation and it's definition in folk m
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 09:16 AM

There isn't a heck of a lot of explaining required for this particular concept. What Harker is doing is pretty well set out in his previous book, which is not at all technical cultural/political theory once you get past the turgid introduction.

Subject: RE: Mediation and it's definition in folk m
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 08:49 AM

I only had only one more thought for Harker discussion, wasn't going to bother but this is an example of it.

It struck me that writing a book from a very specific philosophical perspective, published on an academic imprint, allowed Harker to avoid explaining a lot of things that underly his approach. Either the reader is supposed to already understand the approach, including the jargon, or they find out about it from the bibliography.

I think that is a cop out as it makes like hard for many people who are experts on (or like me just interested in) his subject matter. I wonder if the other volumes in that 'Popular Music in Britain' books series are like that.

I had a mate who fell in with one of the Marxist groups of the 1970's. His attempts to explain what is was all about involved literature like the abtract to the paper Jack links. I came to the conclusion he didn't understand it either.

Back on topic, I disagree with Jim that this should be in his other discussion. It would be handy to have something specific to refer to (not too often I hope).

Subject: RE: Mediation and it's definition in folk m
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 07:29 AM

It's not very different from the way Chaucer used it in the 14th century (he was "mediating" astro-navigational theory for a popular audience) though people with a more theoretical bent have used the term for many other purposes - Adorno seems to have started this.

something to get you well and truly confused

The context of Harker's writings (where this started) is VERY much more straightforward.

Subject: RE: Mediation and it's definition in folk m
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 04:41 AM

It's already been introduced in the new thread on source singers
Can I respectfully suggest that, to avoid conflict, you deal with it there
Jim Carroll

Subject: Mediation and it's definition in folk m
From: Stanron
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 04:12 AM

I read, mostly, with interest the thread 'Dave Harker, Fakesong'. I was particularly interested in the use of the word 'mediation'. It's use does not seem to accord with any dictionary definitions that I can find. Is there a definition for the way it is used in Folk music?