Mediation and its definition in folk music

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Mar 20 - 08:17 AM

I find it indicative that so far these posters have not chosen to comment on a desciption of a live session taking place within a living tradition where big ballads were performed, followed by that of a group of 'unlettered' Travellers arguing the merits and demerits of their living tradition - both major factors in our understanding of how our song traditions worked
This debate has, in my opinion, has been bedevilled by the fact that, basically it has hardly emerged from book covers and that the practices and opinions of those who gave us our traditional songs come a poor second to the opinions of 'the experts'
Our understanding of our traditions must come from finding out how and why our source singers sang - not what the self-appointed boffins thought about it - surely ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 05 Mar 20 - 08:10 AM

Except I don't enjoy reading stuff by people who struggle with English grammar/complex sentences/lexical issues.

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 05 Mar 20 - 08:09 AM

@ Jag: I think this was a good post. Spot on. But likely to fall on deaf ears, I think.


"y last post was mainly to explain to Jim (at his request) how I came to regard him as a 'mediator'. It's simple - he is between us and his singers. I also explained how in most cases the context of passing on the information meant that we got the parts that he thought were relevant at the time. There will be other things that Jim thinks are important that have never come up so he has not told us about, or put in a discussion we have forgotten. Even if he wrote a book (which I would want to read) he would have to be prepared for scholarly types to cross-question him on things. Other people may have written things that don't fit with Jim's account and it is part of a scholar's job to notice those things ('compare and contrast' etc.)"

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Mar 20 - 07:31 AM

"as somebody said early on throwing out the baby with the bathwater"
Which is why Fakesong is such a destructive book
That is exactly what Herker does
Sorry - I have asked Jag to qualify his accusations - he refuses
We have also been told not to rise to the bait
I'll wait for a bus that is going where I want to be
Jim

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 05 Mar 20 - 07:21 AM

I think it is worth keeping Jim's more colourful posts as screen shots for the benefits of any future researchers or biographers. The best ones get deleted too quickly.

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 05 Mar 20 - 07:00 AM

It's news to me if I have 'defended Harker vigorously'. The book has good and bad, and, as somebody said early on throwing out the baby with the bathwater isn't a good idea. I think, for example, I was one of the few posters to try get to grips with what Bearman said about him, and I posted links to a number of review pieces discussing his work. What I have done, or tried to do, is to get a clear view of what he does and does not say across as it seems to me that some posters have not read the book and may have a false picture of what it does and does not do.

But if people want to call me a 'Harkerist', well let them get on with it.

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 05 Mar 20 - 06:56 AM

crossed with Psudonymous.

As I have said I found Harker badly written, really hard work and regard his Marxist framework was a lazy way of not having to discuss the sociological and commercial aspects properly. If I had read "The Imagined Village" first I wouldn't have bothered with Harker after part 1.

(I forgot to mention that my post 04 Mar 20 - 09:32 AM was not consecutive with the one now before it. It was in response to one from Jim that was deleted along with at least one other)

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 05 Mar 20 - 06:41 AM

@Jim Carroll. "both you and Pseud have defended Harker vigorously"

Pseud has. I haven't. Show me where.

Jim, in 50 years time you won't have people who know you to speak up for you. A singer or researcher using your recordings and wondering about you will go to whatever the wayback machine has become and read your posts on mudcat. They will see that you attack people for things they didn't say, or that someone else said, and bury the nuggets of information that you add to a discussion amongst a load of strong but poorly expressed opinion. What conclusion will they draw about the reliability of your accounts?

On in the thread on Steve Roud's book I plugged a couple of first hand accounts of yours (on was your account of a Traveller dictating 'fanmily' songs to be printed so they could be sold at fairs). I though it was an important pointer to what may have gone on the the past put it kept getting passed over because it was buried in the middle of posts ranting about Roud's approach.

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 05 Mar 20 - 06:31 AM

@ Jag. Jim said on the Harker thread that it was the most difficult book he had ever read. This was about 30 years ago. I don't see what was particularly difficult about it, especially for somebody presumably familiar with the class based approach of A L Lloyd. Not compared with some material we have looked at. And in view of the fact that much of what Harker says had been said before, especially about some of the mediators. But I don't get the feeling that Jim remembers what the book said or its argument or much detail, and that this affects the responses he makes to people trying to discuss it as well as the aspects mentioned by Jeri in the post above.

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 05 Mar 20 - 06:27 AM

I am absolutely with Jag when he says that when Jim misrepresents what we and other posters say it undermines his own credibility. Jag is not the first to make this point, not, by any means, the first to complain how that Jim misrepresents what others say. I know Steve Gardham not long ago asked Jim for the 'nth time' not to do it.

And this misrepresentation often involves alleging that people said things that Jim wants to argue against. Looks like a good example of 'mediation' to me. And unpopular as this may be, if ever a person was 'mediated' then that person was Walter Pardon, whatever his status as a 'source singer'.

It is absolutely right to look back at collectors from the past with a critical eye, including Alan Lomax. Not least if you are researching the history of a particular song. When Brian researches the 'history' of songs he must come up against questions such as the reliability and possible mediation and bias of the sources of information he finds.

I have more to say but as this post may well be deleted I am probably going to do the 'multiple post' thing at some point today.

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Mar 20 - 06:08 AM

That night was the first recording we made of it from him - may not have been the greatest quality but it did it for my
Interestingly regarding this discussion Bill Came from a family of storytellers, which is why, I believe, he had big narrative ballads
The family, particularly his father Johnny, can be heard on the album 'The Cassidy' recoded by American collecror, Alan McWeeney and issued on th Travellers own label, 'Pavee Point' - magnificent

Bill's brother Andy is included singing the song from Rio Bravo, 'My Rifle, Pony and Me'
We were one present during a very loud argument in a West London pub _ both Bill and Andy had learned most of their songs from their father - Bill's style was very tradition, Andy preferred Country and Western so he sang 'The Outlandish Knight' in that style
The Travellers were arguing passionately over who was the best singer - we were asked our opinion, but demurred
They didn't need us - the tradition won hands down
Jim

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Brian Peters
Date: 05 Mar 20 - 05:34 AM

Bill Cassidy's 'Outlandish Knight' is a terrific recording. Vi don't think I've heard anything quite like it.

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Mar 20 - 03:49 AM

YES THAT IS QUITE TRUE, THERE ARE UNDOUBTEDLY MORE CRIMINALS AMONGST THE NON TRAVELLER COMMUNITY THAN AMONGST THE TRAVELLER COMMUNITY

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Mar 20 - 03:19 AM

Thanks again Brian, delighted to be reminded of that thread
Pioneers like the Lomaxes were in the same position as Sharp and his colleagues in entering unexplored territory with all the prejudices of their society hanging around their neck and by god - didn't they do good ?
Co-incidentally (remember what has happened to Walter here) around the same time of that thread another one was opened attacking Woody Guthrie's contribution to folk song (rednecks will be rednecks wherever they land)

When we started working with Travellers we had no idea what we would find - neither did the Travellers know what to make of us - a chalk and cheese existence
We were overcautious and clumsy to start with, but we were lucky to begin with people who shared our interest in and respect for the old songs - 'Pop's' Johnny Connors acted as our 'minder' over the first few weeks and kept us on the straight aand narrow when we were going wrong

To illustrate - one night, after a recording session on a site in Shepherds Bush in London, followed by too many hastily drunk pints, Johnny decided to introduce us to 'Little' Bill Cassidy, his brother-in-law
Bill was a the most stylish singer we recorded, with a bit of a drink problem - he was very young for a traditional singer in our experience and had a largish family who we thought were his siblings at first
They were camped outside London, adjacent to Heathrow Airport, so we left the Shepherd's Bush Pub and headed of to find him which we did - we ended up eventually lying on a field around an open fire listening to glorious renditions of 'The Outlandish Knight', 'The Grey Cock' and songs we had never heard before, sung superbly by a somewhat drunk 'Little' Bill; I was much better because the amount I had consumed.
I was the tape-recorder driver, and my mate Denis did the talking - he was the agreed driver and sober (Pat wasn't with us)

Everybody was extremely friendly with the exception of a huge Traveller with hands the size of building bricks, who kept leaning over making sarcastic comments like 'Aren't we the quaint ould Oirish people?"   
'Pop's' Johnny grasped what was happening and said, "You'll be wanting to record Paddy Doherty then"
We recorded 'Roses of Heidelberg' and 'You Will Remember Vienna' from this giant to a background of a huge full moon and planes taking off every five minutes just over the fence - Paddy became a good friend and introduced us to his mother, from Donegal, with a repertoire of 'big' ballads we never got to record

That was one of our first introductions to a totally new world full of wonderful talented and generous people - some people who refer to Travellers as 'Thieves' 'layabouts' and 'slave-owners' need to remember that all societies are made up of a mixture, including their own
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Mar 20 - 01:08 PM

well said Brian. Jim has doneggod asthe football commentators say,
he is not an arm chair collector

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Brian Peters
Date: 04 Mar 20 - 01:00 PM

Yesterday I happened across a Mudcat thread from 2015 discussing an NPR programme that attempted to debunk Alan Lomax's work. My old friend Jeff Davis made contribution that I feel is relevant here:

"It is as shame that we couldn't have done Lomax's work for him, or for Sharp, Creighton, Flanders, Fife - all of them. Our work would have been so much more complete, detailed, unprejudiced, unblemished, and unassailable, and unworthy of criticism. Oh, yes, and more energetic.

Pardon me for a lifetime while I get up from the desk, put the instruments in their cases, the books on the shelf, abandon the fine warm house, the consoling relationship, to go find, effortlessly, some unheard of music in some far away place and make a stunningly perfect job of it."

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Brian Peters
Date: 04 Mar 20 - 12:51 PM

"Questioning authority may be annoying to authority (or collectors), but I think it's necessary."

It may be, but respecting knowledge is necessary too. We can see all around us what happens when it is not.

I agree with Cj's post as well.

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: GUEST,Cj
Date: 04 Mar 20 - 12:26 PM

There seems to be a trait within the human ego that propels people to muck-rake over past growth for tiny stones rather than plant something new. Rather than achieve something themselves, they find an easier route in life wrecking the achievements of others. We see it everywhere, but in the arts especially.

I can see that to a point it helps us progress as a species - Those who do not remember their past are condemned to repeat their mistakes etc - but so often, it merely seems to be inadequate people attempting to make themselves seem cleverer, or more important, or "better" than those they are criticising.

It reminds me of the mediums threatening arch-sceptic Harry Houdini, that once he died he'd have no control over what words the mediums put into his mouth.

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Mar 20 - 12:20 PM

People like to name certain unpopular people as trolls, but the primary reason Jim seems to post here is to fight with people. He's done good in the past, but these days, it's just fighting. As it's been said many times before, just ignore the trolls.

Questioning authority may be annoying to authority (or collectors), but I think it's necessary.

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Mar 20 - 11:56 AM

as they treat those we collected from with the respect we believe they deserve.
Two leading revivalist singers levelled this complaint to me in person against PeterKennedy, buton the basis of finances

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Mar 20 - 11:18 AM

Can I just explain why I persist in this argument about collectors
Personally I don't give a fiddler's fart how people regard our work as long as they treat those we collected from with the respect we believe they deserve - and above all, learn from what they had to offer
I honestly believe that the folk scene in England has lost its way, despite having a healthy history of research and an enviable supply of source material which, for various reasons, has been neglected
There is also a whole body of research work on the art of singing which has been ignored and, in some cases, actively suppressed because of revival small-mindedness and because of the quaint idea that singing standards don't matter - even that working to achieve them spoils the enjoyment of singing - "after all - it's only entertainment"
People would rather discuss MacColl's name change and political leanings than the work he/we did in the Critics Group
Listening critically and analytically to how our source singers tackled their songs might help to repair some of the damage

I don't believe Ireland or Scotland have these problems, or not to the same extrent
'Kist o' Riches has thrown open Scottish traditional singing as an art form big time - the Carpenter Collection stands to add to the Scots ballad repertoire enormously

Youngsters in Ireland have been pouring into the music scene here for some time now, the same is beginning to happen on the singing side
Standards have never been a problem here - no reason why they should have been with such accomplished source singers
It's ironic that MacColl has always been respected here far more than he was in the U.K., certainly as a song-maker
Now, as an interest in the ballads takes hold, I have little doubt that his work as a song researcher will climb -
Peggy plays to full houses whenever she comes here
I watched her perform here in Clare a few years ago - she sang far more ballads than she intended to at our request - she didn't think "they'd go down"
She could have marched an packed audience, relatively unused to narrative singing over the Cliffs of Moher that night without a complaint   

It really is time England caught on to what they stand to lose before it's too late
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Mar 20 - 10:11 AM

"You just misrepresented what I had said about Harker."
Ttally immaterial to this Jag - you made specific accusations which you are obviously neither going to qualify or withdraw, which more or less sums up this whole shebang

Harker, rather than carrying out a much-needed study of the flaws of the work done by Sharp and his collegues, chose to launch a personal attack on them without providing background substantiation - you are doing exactly the same
Your statement on Harker was ambiguous, to say the least
You wrote "a number of people seemed to agree that although Harker's definition of 'mediation' was not prejudicial the way he applied it to most collector's was".
On this occasion, you don't state one way or the other which side of the line you are on, but in the past, both you and Pseud have defended Harker vigorously - I think it fair enough to assume you didn't agree with the attacks on harker on this occasion
Quite often I take what is said to what I believe to be its logical conclusion - - sometimes wrongly - but I invariably read what is said

I go along entirely with Dave Hanson - I think we're finished here - I am anyway
Jim

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 04 Mar 20 - 09:32 AM

To put it simply Jim.

You just misrepresented what I had said about Harker. I think it was a mistake on your part because you didn't understand what I wrote. How do I know you did not misunderstand other people who you tell us about?

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 04 Mar 20 - 08:59 AM

"You claim that Harker wasn't taking a pop at the collectors" Jim Carroll

"Harker's definition of 'mediation' was not prejudicial the way he applied it to most collector's was" Me.

I didn't claim that Harker "wasn't taking a pop at collectors". On the contrary I referred to a consensus amongst several posters here that he was.

You misread and misrepresent my post Jim. Which is why I don't need "examples of our untrustworthiness" to wonder if you might be mistaken about what other people mean.

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Mar 20 - 08:54 AM

Karl Dallas once embarked on a series of themed songbooks - not world-shattering, but interesting for all that
He did two. Songs of War and Songs of Toil, but was forced to abandon the project because of the demands of money from Dallas

The 'Voice of the People' series was originally intended to be a re-issue of the edited, 'Folk Songs of Britain' series with full versions - it was abandoned because of the same reason - this time, we probably gained more than we lost
I'm working on filling out the set for anybody who might like to hear the songs in full - I've digitised the booklet and combined it with the Caedmon version, which has a few differences
Will let people know when it's finished

As far as I'm concerned, nobody owed Kennedy anything - least of all, an apology
Jim

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Vic Smith
Date: 04 Mar 20 - 08:23 AM

Dick wrote: -
let us take Peter Kennedy....... He seemed to think he owned the songs, and attempted to intimidate me.

Totnes Folk Festival - sometime in the mid 1970s. Tina and I sang Billy Taylor in the main concert venue. Peter Kennedy was in the hall with a stall selling his Folktrax cassettes. At the end of the concert Peter approached me.... we had had a few conversations before this and knew one another.

Peter > Where did you get that version of 'Billy Taylor'?
Vic > I recorded it from Cameron & Jane Turriff when we were staying with them for a week in Fetterangus.
Peter > Ah good! That's not one of mine then.

What followed remains one of the most embarrassing moments of my life and I still squirm when I think about it. The arrogance of what Peter said hit me like a hammer; very unusually for me, I totally lost my temper. I bawled at him at the top of my voice.

Vic > What fucking difference would it have made if it had been 'one of yours'?

The crowd leaving the concert fell silent and every eye turned on me. Peter, probably fearing violence on my part ran out of the hall.

I never saw him again after that to be able to apologise for my outburst, but he once wrote me a letter threatening to sue me for something that I had written about him in Karl Dallas' "Folk News". I replied telling him to go ahead as I was sure of my facts in the article and produce it to back up what I had written. I never heard from him again.

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Mar 20 - 08:15 AM

Your're conteradicting yourself Jag
You claim that Harker wasn't taking a pop at the collectors, while at the same time to are claiming that my 'mediating' makes me untrustworthy and unreliable - you list your accusations but provide no proof
I think it's been pretty well established that Harker's use of the term was intended as abusive - you've confirmed that with you use of the term
Again I ask - what has changed to make our work - which was/is highly respected, now untrustworthy
Haaaaaaaave you any sew evidence or for that matter, have you any examples of our untrustworthiness
Or is it just that what Walter, Mikeen and Tom Lenihan had to say is inconvenient ?
I can only hold my breath for so long at my age
Jim

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Mar 20 - 08:12 AM

Thanks Sandman, I'll look for more. I'm familiar with the Tuvan and Inuit varieties, and modern American overtone singing, but never heard of Bulgarian.

Also, questioning collectors has been a thing since I've been on the internet (early 90S), and before that for as long as I remember. As in FJ Child leaving out certain types of song because of reasons. And John Jacob Niles (did he collect it, or did he write it.) If they were around, and enjoyed being trolled, these discussions might go into the millions, except merely the thousands.

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 04 Mar 20 - 08:01 AM

Way up at the top of this discussion a number of people seemed to agree that although Harker's definition of 'mediation' was not prejudicial the way he applied it to most collector's was.

Someone pointed out that there was nothing threatening about the term itself. It's a technical term with a number of definitions.

My last post was mainly to explain to Jim (at his request) how I came to regard him as a 'mediator'. It's simple - he is between us and his singers. I also explained how in most cases the context of passing on the information meant that we got the parts that he thought were relevant at the time. There will be other things that Jim thinks are important that have never come up so he has not told us about, or put in a discussion we have forgotten. Even if he wrote a book (which I would want to read) he would have to be prepared for scholarly types to cross-question him on things. Other people may have written things that don't fit with Jim's account and it is part of a scholar's job to notice those things ('compare and contrast' etc.)

As for the 'getting the wrong end of the stick' part there are a number of posts where I have asked Jim something and tried to make myself really clear and he has assumed I am saying something else, usually something that he strongly disagrees with. He has been accused higher up here I think) as setting up straw men, but I don't think that is deliberate. So I was pointing out that it leaves open in my mind the possibility that he might make mistakes. In contrast there are other people who do seem to understand my questions so - rightly or wrongly - I tend to give more weight to their opinions.

Most people are familiar with the idea of a mistake. I sometimes make mistakes. Some of you may even have made them yourselves.

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Mar 20 - 07:23 AM

TO PARAPHRASE FRED TRUEMAN.i would throw him off the cliff at whitby but i am a kind man so iwould have keith fletcher below to catch him.

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Mar 20 - 07:18 AM

let us take Peter Kennedy, my personal experience was of a mild form of aggression from him. He seemed to think he owned the songs, and attempted to intimidate me.
the songs are not owned by anyone and if you put them in a book and sell the book you must expect people to sing and record them., it is morally unacceptable to the bootleg a track from an lp and try and sell it, because the song has been arranged he does not own the arrangement, itwas not his arrangement to sell, hpowever despite his curmudgeonly attitude , i forgive the poor old dote, because he collected the songs[ i understand he did not always treat his sources very well]
he did mange to recprd n boyle [ because he allowed him to have his rant about jungle music] which we must also be grateful for the songs belong to everyone

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Mar 20 - 06:58 AM

"Unless that is verbatim quotes from your recordings then it is, to readers here, second-hand information."
I've put loads of quotes - particularly from Walter
Our collection is not on line yet, but some of it will be this year on the BL
Getting the impressions from no recorrded information has always been part of what a clollector does - you simply don't get to record everything
- we spent as much time with Walter and the Travellers without a recorded as we did recording them -- more in fact
I get the wrong end of th stick occasionally as we all do
You have Walters quotes to go by
What it boils down to is that, despite the fact that you appear never to have collected yourself, you don't trust those who have
That is a seismic shift on the folk scene that I have been involved in for the last fifty years
I ask again - what has happened to make that happen
Might I suggest that the shift is away from the scholarship that has taken place and what the singers have reported to take in a folk sene that no longer accepts the old definitions of folk song to make room for a folk song that no loner has a definition
If I have got things wrong - it is up to the accusr to provide evidence to prove I have - claiming that I might have wouldn't stand up as evidence in any court I know of
Proof is the responsibility of the accuser, not the accused m'lud !!
"Bring you witness love and I'll never deny you" - as the song says
Jim

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Brian Peters
Date: 04 Mar 20 - 06:55 AM

I have to say that, if I were Jim C, I'd be rolling my eyes, throwing out my arms and asking, "what would you have had us do?"   The collecting practice of Jim, Mike Yates, Tom Munnelly and other relatively recent exponents was explicitly designed to avoid the pitfalls and omissions the early collectors were blamed for. Jim has posted many verbatim accounts of his interviews - is it now being suggested that these too have been 'tampered with'? I take on board jag's compliments regarding Jim and Pat's collection, but to me this whole line of questioning illustrates the pernicious effect of Fakesong: all 'mediators' must be distrusted as a default position. It begins to seem a bit like a conspiracy theory. FFS, these people should be getting knighthoods, not having every aspect of their work and personal integrity questioned. They got off their arses and did the stuff that no-one else thought or could be bothered to do, and that's all the material we have to go on, whether from Jim or Francis Collinson or Cecil Sharp or Anne Gilchrist - there's not going to be much more to come. Surely their work is more important in its own right than something that's there just to be pulled apart?

On jag's final point, I strongly suspect that Jim Carroll is not the only contributor to Mudcat whose online persona - especially in the context of a passionate argument - is different from their persona at home or at work.

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Mar 20 - 06:55 AM

jag , it is very easy to make misundrestandings on the net , there is no body language ,the internet is a flawed way to communicate. wheras communication face to face with people leaves less room for misunderstanding, and Jim is as you said good at that, so why not accept his first hand accounts that are not besed on internet misundertstandings

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 04 Mar 20 - 05:45 AM

@Jim Carroll. In response to your question.

You tell us things that the singers you collected from said and report to us views that they expressed, for example about the different sorts of songs in their repertoires. Unless that is verbatim quotes from your recordings then it is, to readers here, second-hand information. Even if it is on your tapes by choosing what you do and do not say about the singers you are being selective. I guess you chose what information to pass on based on the context in the discussion. The same is likely to apply if you give a talk - what you present will tend to fit the context or current theme. So what we get will only be part of your whole (non-recorded) experience during collecting. Your accounts are second-hand to us, so you are mediating, and they are selective - but not neccessarily selected deliberately by you.

I have no problem with that, and many people who post here and know a lot about folk song - even if they disagree strongly with you in discussions here - have said how your collecting has preserved a huge amount that would otherwise have been lost. You and Pat must be very good at building up a rapport with the singers so that they would trust you with their songs and tell you about themselves.

However, the evidence on this forum is that you repeatedly 'get the wrong end of the stick' when reading other people's posts and respond to things they didn't say. For me that is enough to leave open to doubt anything you tell us that other people said.

How do I know that some of your first-hand accounts don't contain misunderstandings on your part?

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Mar 20 - 04:26 AM

"no but it was similiar in sound but just voice, "
There's version of an accompanied Mongolian singer doing the same as the one I put up on Bert Lloyd's 'Folk Song Virtuoso
Would you like a copy of the programme Dick ?
If so, I'll drop in in PCloud today
Jim

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Mar 20 - 04:22 AM

no but it was similiar in sound but just voice, however the important point i was trying to make is that roots or source singers/musicians of whatever nationailty are of importance because they are the roots of the music before commercialisation has altered the origins

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Mar 20 - 02:17 AM

Maybe not Bulgarian
DO YOU MEAN THIS DICK ?
Jim

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Mar 20 - 01:39 AM

thanks jack, unfortunately i cannot find a link to the style of drone and melody singing that was an example of Bulgarian solo vocal and drone, i was lucky enough to see this on uk television in the 1980s.

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Mar 20 - 06:22 PM

More to the basic point Dick was making - I can't speak to Bulgarian practice, but Turkish transcriptions of folk songs are meticulous about labelling the source, and the word they use ("kaynak") is an exact equivalent of the English "source", i.e. primarily hydrological. But they don't have a concept of "source singer" - there are just singers who happen to be the source of specific songs.   (Though everybody agrees Asik Veysel was awesome).

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Mar 20 - 05:35 PM

I have heard a fair bit of Bulgarian singing - there are local groups that do it - but I haven't one singer provide their own drone - the usual style is polyphonic so there wouldn't be any need. I can ask round. It would make sense for it to happen in Moldavia, where the local whistle style backs the melody with a growled drone.

There is a "throat singing" style done by the Yörük nomads of Anatolia, but it's really different (and not at all like Tibetan or Mongolian singing). That I can easily find more about. I think it hardly survives in the wild now, any more than nomadism in Turkey does.

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Mar 20 - 04:40 PM

jeri perhaps you should search further, as i understand and when i first heard it it was performed by a solo singerand was an example of bulgarian roots or source music ,hence its relevance to jacks comment,is that clear

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Mar 20 - 04:34 PM

jeri, I am referring to singing a melody and a drone by one singer, on first hearing almost unbelievable.

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Mar 20 - 04:17 PM

Having lookedd it up, it appears to be singing, not any sort of overtone thing. But I suppose I was helping somebody skew this thread off-topic, so never mind.

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Mar 20 - 04:12 PM

WTF is "bulgarian throat source" singing?

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 20 - 02:19 PM

" do you agree jack, or are tese bulgarian throat source singers not important?"
From what little I've gleaned from a large international record collection and several visits to Eastern Europe, Jack's knowledge of international music is somewhat superficial as well Dick
Jim

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Mar 20 - 02:04 PM

Souece singers are important, they represent the roots of the music, source musicians are important for the same reason,in many diiferent tradtions this is the case,
i believe jack is interested in eastern european music?as i understand it source musicians and singers let us say for example in bulgaria[ where there is unusual throat singing, do you agree jack, or are tese bulgarian throat source singers not important?

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Brian Peters
Date: 03 Mar 20 - 01:27 PM

"The main point of it seems to be self-congratulation by British collectors for finding such rare and wonderful specimens."

In my experience, like that of Howard Jones above, 'source singers' is generally used by revivalists like me to give due credit to those from whom we get the songs. There's sometimes a whiff of hero-worship about it.

That 'Handbook' sounds very useful, Jack!

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Mar 20 - 01:19 PM

It doesn't matter who thought of it. The point is it's a rather nonsensical concept, not something compellingly suggested by the subject matter like "index patient" in epidemiology. The main point of it seems to be self-congratulation by British collectors for finding such rare and wonderful specimens.

Incidentally I had a look at The Handbook for Folklore and Ethnomusicology Fieldwork this weekend, too what it had to say about "mediation". No mention in the index. But it does have some handy tips about constructing metadata, pulling your 4WD out of mud and coping with local customs around alcohol.

Subject: RE: Mediation and its definition in folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Mar 20 - 01:06 PM

is it of importance as to who came up with the term Source Singers?