Music - 'no longer changes the world'

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Andrez
Date: 13 Feb 08 - 05:30 PM

Thanks for that link Wesley, I'm a little wiser about Rick now. I'd still like to hear the musical setting for the Voices of Struggle song. I'll keep a lookout for it.

Cheers,

Andrez

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 08:39 PM

Organized people change the world. Music can help support the organizations. That's about it.

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Wesley S
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 02:18 PM

Andrez - Start with this link:

Rick Fielding

Rick was a well loved member of the Mudcat that died back in 2004. If you do a search on his name here you'll eventually run across his posts. All of them are well worth reading. He was a fountain of knowledge.

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 01:47 PM

"If a man were permitted to make all the ballads, he need not care who should make the laws of the nation".
Andrew Fletcher of Saltoun 1655-1716

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 11:33 AM

There was one song that might have changed the world a little. "We Shall Overcome".

No one here has defined what "changing the world" means.

When school kids all over the world sing "This Land Is Your Land", are they being educated some how? Does that education change them?

obviously, Dick, "This machine kills fascists" was meant in a metaphorical sense.
it was Woody expressing his views on Hitler. Did Woody's songs change someone's mind?
How do we know? Maybe some dead fascist ideas trailed behind his guitar.

Does music change the world? If a song changes one person's mind, does that constitute
"changing the world"? Or does a song/lyric just reinforce what a person already believes?

Heres what I think. A finely written song contains elements such as specificity, pictures,
dialogue sometimes, craft with successful rhymes and stanzaic consistency, singability (not so complex as requiring a coloratura to sing it), a consistent central idea, an ability to have the listener "own" it, an attractive melody, a focus so that you know who is singing the song (in the song) and why, variety and contrast, and impels not only the listener but the singer. It's content can vary from all ranges of emotional experience.

When an audience hears a song like this, they changed. Since audiences are part of the world and are all over the world, then some audiences over the world are changed.
Does this change the whole world? Does it change "some worlds"?

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: mattkeen
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 09:01 AM

Quote : "Music never changed the world?

Oh, so 'You Were Made For Me' by Freddie and the Dreamers causing Krakatoa to erupt in 1883 is just something I made up, huh?

"Plate tectonics" indeed!

You decide."



That is very funny Sminky

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 07:42 AM

Nah, that was 'Lava Come Back to Me', by Magnuss Magmasson.

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 07:33 AM

Music never changed the world?

Oh, so 'You Were Made For Me' by Freddie and the Dreamers causing Krakatoa to erupt in 1883 is just something I made up, huh?

"Plate tectonics" indeed!

You decide.

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Andrez
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 06:19 AM

Big Mick, I've done a quick 'net search without success. I hadnt even heard of Rick Fielding let alone his song Voices of Struggle. Pardon the ignorance! Is there a version online somewhere out there that you know of? I'd like to hear the song in its musical setting?

Cheers,

Andrez

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 06:16 PM

Music NEVER changed the world.
PEOPLE change the world.

I remember a recent political pile of poop over here because a candidate was accused of giving people 'false hope'. The only time I think hope is false is when people give up on it. One reason people give up hope is some other jerk running around calling it 'false' and trying to make folks believe they can't do a damned thing.

Music inspires. Music gives people hope and makes them believe they can do something to change the world, and music makes the journey lighter. Music lightens the heart, stirs the blood and motivates the spirit.

Music can change people, and people change the world.

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: topical tom
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 01:22 PM

That was a great post, Adrien. You said it all so well.

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Wesley S
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 01:03 PM

I think Beer came closest to hitting this on the head. Where are the new sources of socially aware music? "Ohio" got a fair amount of airplay in it's day. So did "Blowing in the Wind". IF someone were to write a modern day version of these songs we have to know that they wouldn't be touched by radio. Where would these songs find an audience ? IF someone were writing them. And they aren't.

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 11:51 AM

Je suis marxiste - tendence groucho.

This should be renamed the incredible shrinking thread!!

(Thanks Joe!!) :-)

Dave

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 11:28 AM

Bitter Lemon and Skid Marks


G (Aux armes citoyen(ne)s!)

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 11:18 AM

Joseph Lennon and Groucho Marx

Charlotte (aux barricades!)

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: number 6
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 09:03 AM

If I may so lightly intrude here ...

Great post Beer .... my advice to many people who complain about life is ... get a dog, grow a garden and take up the guitar.

biLL

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: KeithofChester
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 07:54 AM

"Always give your best, never get discouraged, never be petty; always remember, others may hate you, but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them, and then you destroy yourself".

-RMN

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Ernest
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 02:07 AM

Music still changes the world: makes it less quiet.
;0)
Ernest

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Beer
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 12:03 AM

I've been reading all these threads and I have very little to say. So here goes.

I) Never care for Neil Young's music. However there are exceptions. The one song that i really liked was "This Old House" on his record American Dream.

2) I cannot Imagen a world without music. I am 60 years old and have been screaming (singing) since I was born. Playing music since I was 16 and writing for about 20 years. I go to bed with a tune in my head and still wake up with a tune to try on the piano. Neil Young needs to join Mudcat so he can realize that there are folks here that think (oh never mind.) he is wrong. Well most of us.

3) Than again. What is he really saying? "No longer changes?" Sounds like he is referring to the days when he was big and is now starting to fade from that era and wants to set a spark to his career. Hell why not.

4) Then maybe in his thinking he is right. Where are the Dylan's, Lightfoots, Paxton's, Mitchell's, Murdoch's, Lang's, Guthrie's, Prine, not to mention the Eric Bogle, And all those other great great performers that we grew up to love. He maybe very right. Maybe there is no one out there "NOW" that we can relate to as far as the music we love. Maybe it is just that the music has changed and we have stayed behind.

5) I just want to finish by saying that there are other mediums out there that even music lovers have little knowledge of. The variety of trees, plants, gardening, and on and on. One that I will touch on is birds. I can look at a bird in flight and tell you what it is just by the way it flies. I can tell you most birds by the songs they sing without seeing them.

The point I'm trying to make is that Music/Birds/gardening/ and all the things around us are all related to the whole. Most of us will never grasp it all but just a part. if it is not music it might be trees or plant life. But music just happens to be one of those things that you can't hold in you hand, but you can hold in your heart.

Beer (adrien)

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 07:13 PM

William Wilberforce first met John Newton when Wilberforce was a child, in London. He was 'inspired' by Newton and his preaching, and
because Newton had been a captain on a slave trader, not the hymns he wrote or music. After Wilberforce left Cambridge (where he'd been sent at age 14), they frequently had theological debates after 1785. ('The Trader, the Owner, the Slave - Parallel lives in the Age of Slavery' by James Walvin, pub by Vintage, ISBN 9780712667630 - presently available in Waterstones as a 3 for 2 sticker book).

Music alone cannot really change anything. The people it inspires can make small changes. If a song becomes popular, it can inspire millions of people. Those millions of people are what could change the world. Music can be used to get a message across, but there are very few songs or pieces that have individually 'changed the world' - even Newton's 'Amazing Grace' is made up from phrases and verses from the Bible so it's hardly a new message.

Once again, what started as a good discussion subject has been hijacked and trashed by the same few people... I was under the impression that one of those few, one who has posted no less than 16 times to this thread - 4 of those consecutive postings - was banned from the Mudcat... I must have missed the reasons for her reinstatement. I haven't missed her posts at all.

LTS

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Gene Burton
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 06:25 PM

Ha, ha!

Reminds me, my Dad (until recently a History teacher) used to have to mark scores of essays by 13-14 year olds on the Russian revolution every spring, including a gem one year which began "Lenny was a Communist..."

No, but seriously, guys, I have absolutely no idea who Joseph Lenno is/was. Oh wait...is he the talkshow host?

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Peace
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 06:18 PM

That communist guy. Joseph Lennon!

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 06:17 PM

All this witty repartee must cease or I will close this thread and block all your bowels......

Joseph Lenno.... wasn't he in The Dave Clark 5?

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Gene Burton
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 06:11 PM

Who he?

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Peace
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 06:09 PM

Thought it was Joseph Lenno . . . .

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Gene Burton
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 06:08 PM

Always glad to be of service...having singularly failed to make any serous postings in the last 24 hours...Who gave those folks over on the John Lennon thread permission to turn it back into a discussion about John Lennon?? Entirely unacceptable!

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Peace
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 06:02 PM

LOL

Love your sense of humour.

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Gene Burton
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 05:57 PM

Oh, I was just echoing what people say to me all the time, Bruce. I always take it as a compliment. Er... :@)

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Peace
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 05:53 PM

"Let's just say I'm touched..."

Gene, don't lead with your chin!

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: pdq
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 05:51 PM

"I never noticed any dead fascists trailing behind Woody's guitar"

Mostly live copyright lawyers.

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Gene Burton
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 05:51 PM

"See Gene...they're swarming round you already... ;-)"

Let's just say I'm touched...

Gene (The Thinking Man's or Woman's Aphrodisiac)

Maybe that could lose two or three syllables...

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 05:24 PM

well you know the old advertising world saying, "if you can't dazzle'em with brilliance, baffle'em with...well you get the drift*LOL*

Charlotte (works everytime)

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Gene Burton
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 05:05 PM

I was thinking of pitching myself as a kind of a low rent alternative to IVF. Not sure of the science behind the treatment, but I'm sure I could cobble some kind of plausible-ish waffle together...there's big bucks to be made!

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Marketing Consultant
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 04:59 PM

well Gene, let me see...first of all the demographic you'd be looking at...... *LOL*

Charlotte(Customer Testimonials R Us)

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Gene Burton
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 04:50 PM

"thank goodness you weren't playing 'live'....."

Hmmm, that gives me an idea...I'm sure there's a market, somewhere...all I need is a "customer's testimony" and I'm away...

(Chuckle)

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Gene Burton
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 04:34 PM

Dunno about changing the whole world...but a friend of mine told me last year (apparently in all seriousness) that his baby daughter was apparently conceived to the sound of one of my CDs...not REALLY what the music was designed for (I'm more an art for art's sake man myself), but something to tell the grandkids many years hence (mine, not his. Though come to think of it...)

As a music fan, I find any kind of political/protest music tends to get less listenable roughly in inverse proportion to the stridency of the message...the one exception being a soft spot for early Dylan.

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 04:24 PM

yup, I guess it went over a few heads....

Charlotte (maybe, maybe not)

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Peace
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 04:20 PM

Music has changed MY world. That'll have to do I guess.

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 04:14 PM

That'll go over a few heads Dick, nice observation.
G

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 04:09 PM

Funny thing though--I never noticed any dead fascists trailing behind Woody's guitar.

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 04:09 PM

no idea what you do for a living, Megan L.

and back on topic, I reiterate..music has never changed a damn thing in this world and it never will, it's people that just might do that.

Charlotte (sorry for the thread drift)

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 03:44 PM

I think music changes the world, so does ironing clothes. No doubt in our memories there was a time when we thought music was a powerful force for change, but stuff happens.

One thing I'm not inclined to say is that music is the only thing that will change the world, something that Jimi Hendrix is alleged to have said.

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 02:09 PM

"Peter (singing..not ranting!)   (oh no...Charlotte...these brackets are catching!)
monkey see, monkey do

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 01:36 PM

"Is that the music raising the money, or the performer?"

Well spotted John! It's both, of course. Some people go because of the music, some go becasue of who is performing. They all go to help raise money!

(You could argue that jugglers and tightrope walkers use music in their acts, but that would be pushing the envelope!)

More seriously, there are stories of people who have survived due to the power of a particular song. Go to this link and wind down to interesting details!

Best wishes,

Peter

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: number 6
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 01:05 PM

Here's my 2 cents worth ..

I know a lot of people here in the Cat are not fans of Neil Young. But to me 'ol Neil is someone from the days of my youth who never sold out and stayed on track, like so many of his contemporaries have.

Now, in regards to the subject of this thread … yes people do make changes in the world, but music is a common (art) media that easily crosses all language barriers, cultures and classes. It's a voice ( a communicator) that can trigger the wind of change. The problem today is that no one is communicating.

Steve Earl's song 'Christmas Time in Washington' comes to mind. In fact it is a song that has been resonating in my head quite a lot as of late. Here's the chorus from that song …

"So come back Woody Guthrie
Come back to us now
Tear your eyes from paradise
And rise again somehow
If you run into Jesus
Maybe he can help you out
Come back Woody Guthrie to us now"

biLL

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 01:00 PM

Same with the music
G

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 12:39 PM

So a good song is worth more than a good juggle then?

G.

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 12:30 PM

Is that the music raising the money, or the performer? Because if it was a juggler or an acrobat performing for free to raise money for charity, would it be Indian Clubs or tightropes changing the world?

G

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 12:25 PM

Ok... How does music change the world?

I'll tell you.

By many musicians going out into the highways and byways, to venues all over the country and performing their material for charity. They use their talents to raise money for many deserving causes that would not have had that money to use if they had not given of their time and skill.

Best wishes,

Peter (singing..not ranting!)   (oh no...Charlotte...these brackets are catching!)

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 11:30 AM

Music is like cheap perfume, it attracts momentarily then is gone, it may have the power to move you emotionally, and more than once, but it has yet to solve one international crisis, or cure one nasty disease.
Any world that is changed by music is either very small, or very personal, but as far as the rest of us are concerned it's about as much use as a cotton candy jock strap, regarding worldly matters.
Of course if you live in a little world of your own making, then the previous thoughts will mean nothing to you.
G.