In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: Big Mick
Date: 30 Jul 05 - 10:32 PM

The problem isn't Roger. It is all of you that continually answer. If you don't stop, I wish you would quit beefing about it. We have a pretty good handle on what drives him. What I want to know is what drives the rest of you.

Mick

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Jul 05 - 11:28 AM

Well, El Greko, as a lot of us do here, I do use PMS to try to clear up confusion or conflict from a thread-- that's one reason we have PMs, and when both parties are open to actual communication they can be quite effective. (Besides, I'm a Bible girl, and it's Biblical.) But this usually comes to an end when either party repeatedly gives notice they want to be left alone.    So when it's clear the two parties are not going to be able to get on the same wavelength, sometimes it comes to that. I try to assume both parties are doing the best they can under the circumstances, and sometimes there just isn't sufficient foundation for the communication to continue-- it isn't really communication past that point, but noise.

Sometimes time helps-- one person with whom I once declined further communication wrote to me again MUCH later with an apology that indicated they had finally understood their end of what was stuck, and took responsibility for it. So it is usually my practice to open all PMs and to reply where I see reason at work, even if there has been a problem in the past. Or (like others) I sometimes just delete them unread, depending on the history with that person (and the PM title).

This is the first time I can recall going all Garbo on someone, though, right out in a thread. Some things have been said attempting to characterize my thoughts and/or feelings, and they are inaccurate. Maybe it's helpful to clarify that one can simply be over one's limit, and we should all be able to say for ourselves where the limit is without having to defend a reson for it. It's called Personal Boundaries.

~Susan

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 30 Jul 05 - 11:03 AM

Thanks Susan. Second-guessing people is dangerous, so I'm glad I got it right.

I just thought of a parallel, from the world of politics. Say a journalist asks a question of Bush or Blair publicly - you'd hardly expect the response to be in a private letter! And if Bush or Blair had information that should not be divulged in public, they would simply state the fact and leave it at that. Imagine Blair responding at Prime Minister's Question Time in the Parliament by saying "I'll give you a call later to answer your question"!

Now if that's good enough for country leaders, it's good enough and commonsense for us all.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 04:45 PM

Thank you, El Greko, for accurately reading my intent and for re-stating it so clearly. Any other assumptions would be incorrect, baseless, and unwarranted.

~Susan

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 02:48 PM

I'll tell you in a PM. *Smiles*

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: Wesley S
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 02:44 PM

OK - I'll bite. Who ?

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 02:41 PM

Roger - I thought you had "rested your case" a long time ago. What happened ?

It was not a case of what - it was a case of who.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 02:34 PM

Sorry that should have read.

Susan - If you stop on continuing to address me publicly - I will certainly have no interest in providing the answers to you in any form.

I am very concerned that posters may get the implication from Susan's post that there may be something sinister, abusive or insulting in any form of communication of mine with her. There is not.

Susan - if you do not wish me to reply to your questions (in the form of my choosing) then please do not address me or ask me questions publicly or privately.

I consider the questions you insist on asking me publicly are a side issue - if I choose to answer your questions via PMs - that is a matter for me. However you have requested that I do not send you PMs and I will of course respect this request. But if you continue to ask me questions - I will answer in the form that I think best and I would appreciate that you make no more attempts to create needless drama at my expense.

You may have sometime ago asked me not to PM you - but this was not made recently and a request I thought null and void in the respect of the questions you have asked me - and which I have now provided. A simple repeat of this request made to via PM would have been perfectly sufficient and been respected by me. The public attempt to give some impression of 'stalking' - was not necessary and is not appreciated.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 02:15 PM

Roger, if Susan asks you questions publicly, she presumably is looking for the answers in the same manner (unless you are in possession of facts that you do not wish to divulge in an open forum). If that is the case, simply say so. But to respond "If you insist on continuing to address me publicly - I will certainly have no interest in providing the answers to you in any form" is a little... how can I say it... unorthodox? peevish? bullying? I don't know, you call it what you like.

Please bear also in mind that in a debate, volume of statements is not what wins it, but quality. So repetitions and copy-pastes generally prove little and are just as likely to detract from your argument, because they irritate.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: Wesley S
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 02:14 PM

Roger - I thought you had "rested your case" a long time ago. What happened ?

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 02:05 PM

Roger-- once more-- and this time publicly-- please stop sending me PMs about this issue!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you insist on continuing to address me publicly - I will certainly have no interest in providing the answers to you in any form.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 01:56 PM

Roger-- once more-- and this time publicly-- please stop sending me PMs about this issue!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

~Susan

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: MMario
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 01:32 PM

No excuse necessary. Max does not require the volunteers disclose their identity , nor does he require a PM before making changes his policy authorizes.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 01:27 PM

You may have missed this too?

You're absolutely right, Shambles. It isn't too cumbersome to send a personal message (and wait for a response) when there's a reason to do it, but is there a reason to go through a permission process to simply add a date to an obit, or a location to a gig thread, or a song title to a lyrics request? It isn't too cumbersome to address you as "Shambles (may your name be forever hallowed)" - but to do it EVERY time, with no copy-paste allowed, would become cumbersome in short order.
-Joe Offer-

I can accept no real excuse for why other known volunteers prefer not to take the little time and trouble required to undertake properly - their role of 'facilitating'. As Max chooses not to sit in judgement upon posters and has stated the word 'faciltate' to describe his approach - I can see no reason why any volunteer (anonymous or otherwise) should see themselves as qualified to be seen as any more than this.

Perhaps some new volunteers can be recruited who are prepared to go that 'extra mile' to ensure that posters always feel their contributions to given the value and respectand would not think time taken to do this this would be 'cumbersome'.   

I would suggest the point is rather that anonymous volunteers cannot send PMs and still remain anonymous. For quite why the divisive ability to feel qualified to imposed judgement upon fellow posters yet remain anonymous - is defended - is still a puzzle to me? Perhaps this can be given a re-think - if only for the reason that this prevents them from sending a PM that would prevent the need for them to impose their judgement upon an orinator's thread title?

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: MMario
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 11:08 AM

Yes Roger - you have said over and over and over that this is your concern.

And you have been told that Max will yank those rights from his appointees if he feels they have overstepped their bounds. It is his decision. Not mine, not yours, not joe's.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: GUEST,Yawn
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 11:07 AM

The reality of some of 'his appointed designees' hiding some far less noble designs behind the now - all too regular exercise by some of them - of these rights - is the issue that we should face up to now.

What a load of crap! Get it through your head, Shambles, that the clones are doing what Max WANTS them to do. If you doubt that, WHY DON'T YOU ASK HIM???

You really should do something about that paranoia, mate!

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 11:06 AM

... And be prepared to take the necessary steps (whatever they may be) to understand and ensure that it is Max's true wishes that we respect.

So, Shambles, YOU are finally going to contact Max and get his current word on all this? Please be sure to share it with us when you do.

~Susan

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 10:58 AM

the practical difference is that as a private site posters have no right to free speech - and Max (or his appointed designees) have the right to edit, delete, modify, etc any content whatsoever. On a truly public site this is not so.

In a practical sense - most posters (certainly long-term ones like me) would willingly respect that Max has these rights and recognise them as inherent but are grateful these rights have been traditionally held in reserve. These rights are not the issue. The reality of some of 'his appointed designees' hiding some far less noble designs behind the now - all too regular exercise by some of them - of these rights - is the issue that we should face up to now.

For Max shows has shown respect over many years to the free speech and (many others aspects) of posters and the results of this mutual respect (worry and hard work) have made our forum the special place it just about struggles to remain.

Max has historically reserved these rights and posters have (generally and) historically respected this. I only hope that Max will continue to struggle-on and continue to ensure that this mutual respect can continue on our forum. And be prepared to take the necessary steps (whatever they may be) to understand and ensure that it is Max's true wishes that we respect.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: kendall
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 10:34 AM

Some time ago I got into a pissing contest with another member, and eventually, Joe Offer said "Enough..." the other member had the last word, and I was irritated but I didn't make a federal case out of it. Fact is, it HAD gone far enough and Joe was right.

"Men mature after they have exhausted all other options"

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: MMario
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 10:21 AM

the practical difference is that as a private site posters have no right to free speech - and Max (or his appointed designees) have the right to edit, delete, modify, etc any content whatsoever. On a truly public site this is not so.

I think you would agree that our forum has not become mine, yours or Joe Offer's?

Agreed - noting that "our" in feference to the forum is more or less rhetorical - because it is and always has been Max's.

Will you accept the fact that Max *has* set the rules as they are applied? Because I assure you - he has.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 10:05 AM

correction - this is not a "public" discussion forum. it is a private discussion forum which happens to be frequented by the public. there is a big difference.

And what exactly is that difference in practical terms?

It is a part of Max's website that he has historically set aside for contributions welcomed from all of the public - with as few rules and restrictions placed upon them as possible.

MMario - Whatever you may consider it - I think you would agree that our forum has not become mine, yours or Joe Offer's?

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: GUEST,Yawn
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 10:04 AM

...this needless imposition. It may inhibit any further contributions from the poster directly affected

We should be so lucky...(sigh)

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: MMario
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 09:46 AM

correction - this is not a "public" discussion forum. it is a private discussion forum which happens to be frequented by the public. there is a big difference.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: Big Mick
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 09:45 AM

I smell another 2000 posts, most of which will be the very epitome of redundancy.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complain
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 09:43 AM

I feel the recently introduced process by which aspects appear to be 'decided' for us on our public discussion forum - are of as much concern as what these 'final' decisions turn out to be.

These 'final' decisions and edicts - increasingly seem to follow very closly the personally expressed opinions of a certain long-term fellow poster of mine - whose views I once respected very much but which I always used to be able to feel free to post to disagree with.

These 'final' decisions now seem to be concerned more with any possible problems presented to the volunteer role - rather than addressing the interests of all on our forum.....Perhaps there is another answer for anyone who may find the demands made upon them by this volunteer role to be too taxing?   

It has also been stated more than once that thread originators ARE informed or consulted when there is a reason to do so - but not every time, since that would be cumbersome.
-Joe Offer-

I have never found it too 'cumbersome' to send a PM.

The reason for always asking the originator first - before any change is imposed upon their chosen thread title is pretty obvious and still thought to be a very good reason - to those who have posted to make the simple requested here. Which is that this convention be followed and this respect always be shown - by those who volunteer to help the rest of us - and not to rule over us.

---

You're absolutely right, Shambles. It isn't too cumbersome to send a personal message (and wait for a response) when there's a reason to do it, but is there a reason to go through a permission process to simply add a date to an obit, or a location to a gig thread, or a song title to a lyrics request? It isn't too cumbersome to address you as "Shambles (may your name be forever hallowed)" - but to do it EVERY time, with no copy-paste allowed, would become cumbersome in short order.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 08:30 AM

Roger: "I feel that we have now reached the stage when a lot of these questions are for the forum to publicly debate and decide now - rather than for one individual fellow poster to now feel qualified to judge what is best for the rest of us".

By all means, let's debate; let people post their opinion here without fear of bullying or personal attacks. As for "deciding", however, let's also be clear that any decision by this forum has no power other than that of a reasoned suggestion, as it does not automatically constitute policy and cannot be imposed. Such a decision/suggestion may be ignored by the owner or operators of the forum, and that's simply the way it is.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: GUEST,Alix graaa parot
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 02:16 AM

bi mean girl

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: jacqui.c
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 10:50 PM

Damn - Thought we'd headed this one off at the pass.

I'm out of here. Byeeee...

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: The Shambles
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 08:22 PM

What harm was done by adding "UK" to the thread title in question?

Harm was done is this needless imposition. It may inhibit any further contributions from the poster directly affected and other posters witnessing this treatment. There is nothing friendly or welcoming about the attitude displayed and defended here.

But as has already been pointed out – the addition of UK in the context of the Licensing Act 2003 and the Government Minister responsible - is incorrect as their jurisdiction does not cover the UK. A point that would have been made by the thread's originator – had the anonymous volunteer taken the little time required to ask.
The harm done by this imposed change is that a thread title (with the originator still credited with its creation) is now knowingly incorrect – leaving the originator open to accusations of misrepresentation from Scottish posters and of not being informed.

Does it make the thread title more clear and a better index for our readers?

In fact no – this title is now incorrect and the imposition was done on this thread title - in isolation. The rights of our readers matter no more than the rights of our posters – for we are one and the same and we all should be equally respected whether posting or reading.

Does the need to preserve the sanctity of thread titles outweigh the need for clarity of indexing? Why?

No - but why do our volunteers consider the need for clarity of their indexing outweighs the need for always showing the proper respect to all the contributors they are supposed to be helping on our forum - rather than imposing their judgment upon?

What harm has ever been done by the editing done at Mudcat?

When what is imposed is plainly seen NOT to be for the reasons stated and is seen to be unfair and inconsistent as well as needlessly impolite and selectively heavy-handed – the harm done to individuals and the whole forum - is immeasurable. The imposition of the change to the second thread's title the manner in which it undertaken – is a perfect example of this harm. For if I had been asked by Joe Offer (who could have easily asked in a PM) I would have willingly agreed to a change. If folk do not know the harm done by bullying (in all its forms) they probably never will.

I feel that we have now reached the stage when a lot of these questions are for the forum to publicly debate and decide now - rather than for one individual fellow poster to now feel qualified to judge what is best for the rest of us.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 09:01 PM

oh.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: jacqui.c
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 08:59 PM

Sorry jOhn - don't do domestic. (Ask Kendall)

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 07:43 PM

jacquic-Are you good at cooking and cleaning the house, and shopping etc?
if so= if your husnand runs off, just let me knoew.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 06:53 PM

oh.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: jacqui.c
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 06:53 PM

jOhn - if I wasn't married I'd propose to you.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 06:28 PM

Shambles- you are a moany old fart.
Qoute "As one who as suffered from this thread adding to name change etc" blar bklar blar!

Shambles-you have NOT suffered becase of someone adding "UK" to your thread.
people really ARE suffering now, ie little kids dying of cancer, african people starvingf etc, and loads of stuff like that.
i reckon you have a decent house ie roof over your head etc, you probly got stuff like telly, video, dvd, computer etcetc, and plenty of food in the fridge.
you dont know waht suffering is, and for you to say you have suffered beacase joe or sombody added uk to a thread you started is an insult to people that are suffering.

if you want to know suffering, take a walk around your local childrens ward, [maybe you could volounteeer there, instead of starting moany threadss on mudcat].
most folk are happy here, if you dont like mudcat, why not fuck off, and make your own site.

john

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: harpgirl
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 05:28 PM

I'm imagining it right now, Pal. Oops I have to back up my data and go home. Byeeeeee

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: Big Mick
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 04:12 PM

Harpy, perseveration could be caused due to physical injury, it could also be organic.

I should have indicated that use of the term pathological, that is to say relating to or manifesting behavior that is habitual, maladaptive, and compulsive, was simply my opinion.

And the "bite me" comment was meant in the biblical sense ..... nyuk, nyuk, nyuk.

Mick

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: The Shambles
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 04:12 PM

You may have missed the following – it was submitted as a editing comment – in order not to refresh the thread.

It has also been stated more than once that thread originators ARE informed or consulted when there is a reason to do so.
-Joe Offer-

And this one.

No, Spaw. Why close it? It's OK for Roger to have a place to express himself. If we close this thread, he'll start another with the same questions. I'd rather answer the questions once in a thread and then let the discussion continue. If he starts a new thread, then I feel obliged to give the same answers all over again, so he isn't able to convey the implication that our silence proves our guilt.
-Joe Offer-

Perhaps then – this thread can be re-opened?

Censorship on Mudcat

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: MMario
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 03:45 PM

WHICH IS WHY THEY ARE NOT ROUTINE - nor ever likely to become so.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: The Shambles
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 03:36 PM

When you perfect these routine actions - your speed increases each time you practice until - it become automatic and un-thinking.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: MMario
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 03:27 PM

but at such a low frequency of occurance it is neither normal nor ordinary.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: The Shambles
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 03:26 PM

"routine" would be "as a matter of course", "frequent".

No - it means becoming the normal and ordinary way of doing something.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: harpgirl
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 03:19 PM

Oh and Mickster, you don't have any licenses which qualify you to make this statement, so stick to organizing!

"This person has a pathological need for validation"

I don't think anyone who doesn't know Roger should presume to know his psychology. I just worry that he perseverates because of a head injury or something.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: MMario
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 03:18 PM

No Roger - it is not routine - when the changes *may* be made on what ? One in a hundred? possibly (though I doubt it - probably much less occurance then that)

"routine" would be "as a matter of course", "frequent".

we currently have approximately 83,273 threads on the forum. Can you where even 1 tenth of 1% of those thread titles have been changed? Can you even come up with 1/1ooth of a percent of thread titles that you can show were changed without permission?

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complain
From: The Shambles
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 03:09 PM

Your own examples SHOW that it is not routine.

It has been maintained by our volunteeers that thread titles shall be changed by them - if and when they wish for the reasons they may wish it - without the originator's knowledge or permission.

If you do not consider that now as routine - if this intention is not re-thought to address the concerns expressed about it by posters in this thread - I suspect that this and many other things will become routine.

---

It has also been stated more than once that thread originators ARE informed or consulted when there is a reason to do so - but not every time, since that would be cumbersome.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: MMario
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 02:54 PM

I have also likened this routine imposed changing of originator's thread titles - to a library changing the titles of its books without the author's knowledge or permission - in order to clarify them for purposes of indexing. I am sure that authors who have struggled over their titles would offer no objection to such a practice....Even though this may later make it quite difficult to locate their own book....

there you go! An example Roger!

You have already been informed, publicly, that

a) changing of thread titles is not routine. You insist on continueing to refer to it as routine. Your own examples SHOW that it is not routine.

B) that except for extremely exceptional circumstances thread titles are only modified by additions, spelling corrections, etc. This will neither prevent finding the title, nor will it make finding the title more difficult.

The length of thread title has already been thrashed out - yet you bring it up again. Only two people have the ability to change that feature - Max and Jeff. They choose not to - at least at this time.

Max is the site owner. This is his right. Jeff is his programmer and to the best of my knowledge only makes changes at Max's request.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: The Shambles
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 02:44 PM

One of the aspects of creating thread titles that has been discovered - is that our volunteers with edit buttons have more characters available to them than other posters. Not itself perhaps a big thing especially perhaps to those who poccess this ability. But possibly a bigger thing for those who do not who may feel themselves to be a lesser poster for lacking in this respect?

But for a lesser poster to have their thread title publicly judged as wanting and a change imposed upon this without your knowedge or permission is perhaps a bigger thing? Perhaps if us lesser posters (in this factual respect) had the same number of characters available - we to may be able to provide a title that would not need to be 'clarified' with or without our knowledge or permission?

I have some months ago - publicly asked if the same number of characters as are available to our volunteers for thread titles - could be made available to us non-volunteers - but this was not thought (by our volunteers) to be necessary.

I have also likened this routine imposed changing of originator's thread titles - to a library changing the titles of its books without the author's knowledge or permission - in order to clarify them for purposes of indexing. I am sure that authors who have struggled over their titles would offer no objection to such a practice....Even though this may later make it quite difficult to locate their own book....

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: MMario
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 01:31 PM

Roger - I can, I have, and you have ignored.

BTW- *YOU* have labeled people as "lessor posters". I doubt any of the volunteers considers there to be such a catagory.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: The Shambles
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 01:25 PM

Roger does not only point out wrongs. He fabricates them. Over and over and over again. I call him on it, just as you call people on things you believe are wrong. Period. No meaness about it.

If that were true and you could supply any evidence to support such a wide and wild claim - it would not excuse or justify the sort of response that this poster has come to expect as normal - from those who should really be setting the example for other (lesser posters) to follow.

This is not about the treatment that I see I continue to receive - seemingly because I am thought by those that really matter to somehow deserve it. It is trying to ensure that others do not also receive treatment they do not deserve from those who should know better and are inhibited from posting as a result.

A simple request was made here for more respect to shown to contributors by our vonunteers. it was ignored by most but supported by some - yet nothing changes - except the rudeness and general intolerence (from some who should know better) is encouraged.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: MMario
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 12:22 PM

gee harpy, how do you know there isn't any manual? Nor does there have to be a manual in order for there to be an editing policy.

Roger does not only point out wrongs. He fabricates them. Over and over and over again. I call him on it, just as you call people on things you believe are wrong. Period. No meaness about it.