Folklore: Percy Grainger

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 08:47 AM

"Beethoven managed it."
Rumour had it that Beethoven was so deaf the thought he was a painter
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 08:27 AM

To say it was cheap as chips would be to wildly overestimate the price of chips.

dynamic search link

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: Vic Smith
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 08:15 AM

Derek wrote:-
Vic … The Mickey Hart book … I bought a copy in a discount book shop in the UK … no idea when, or where!
Derek

I did eBay and Amazon searches for this book before I put my previous post up about it and only got hits for sales from the USA - and usually less than half of what I paid for it. However, back in 2003, the £ was so high against the $ that everything that we bought in America all seemed very cheap. 😠

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 07:33 AM

Imagine trying to me sense of Beethoven's String Quartets from the printed page - I don't think so

Beethoven managed it.

Blacking describes what Grainger's notation was trying to do in his book. It's less necessary now that recordings can be more permanent, but the effort to describe a performance from the outside as precisely as possible is something future generations will always be grateful for. The modern terminology for Grainger's notations is "etic" - the contrasting "emic" notation that performers might use themselves is more useful to them, but not a lot of help when we no longer have performers who can understand it in the same way as the person who wrote it down.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 06:47 AM

Vic … The Mickey Hart book … I bought a copy in a discount book shop in the UK … no idea when, or where!
Derek

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 02:27 AM

Having enough people interested in listening to that sort of thing to avoid such an an important collection doesn't lie abandoned for as long as it has is a better one Steve
As far as the 'in print' thing is concerned
One of the wisest things aver wrote about the ballads was by Bronson
"When is a ballad not a ballad - when it has no tune"
He might have addded "when it is not sung"
THe pioneers got these things from mouth to paper - now they need tobe put back in singers' mouths if they are to survive
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Aug 19 - 05:02 PM

Thanks, Jim
Can't argue with the listening point but having a comprehensive list is a good start to the listening process.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: Vic Smith
Date: 27 Aug 19 - 03:10 PM

Mickey Hart, drummer with The Grateful Dead had a fascinating book called Songcatchers: In Search of the World's Music published by National Geographic. I don't think it was ever published in the UK: I bought my copy the year it came out in 2003 in New Orleans.
It is a popular book rathet than an academic book; the section on Percy Grainger is particularly interesting.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Aug 19 - 02:37 PM

Should have said - as with all collections, a full understanding of the songs comes from listening to them - printed versions are merely one-dimensional views of an important art form
Imagine trying to me sense of Beethoven's String Quartets from the printed page - I don't think so
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Aug 19 - 02:33 PM

Apart from ours, there's a full set of the Grainger Collection a Cecil Sharp House
There is also a full set along with his Scandinavian recordings as The National Sound Archive
AS far as I remember, Shaughnessy published only some of them
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Aug 19 - 01:55 PM

Are all of the recordings published in the O'Shaughnessy books? I have all of those.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Aug 19 - 01:53 PM

Is there a comprehensive (or other) listing of Grainger's folk song recordings anywhere? On line? I have a copy of Brigg Fair album. It might have a list in the sleeve notes.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Aug 19 - 12:22 PM

The mover and shaker of the 'Unto Brigg Fair' album was Bob (later "Professor Robert") Thomson, who worked with Bill Leader and Dave Bland on the project
He approached Ella Grainger for permission and acquired a full set of the field recordings to work from
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Aug 19 - 12:03 PM

Thanks for that link, Becky.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 27 Aug 19 - 11:46 AM

Accounts are contradictory, but it appears that Joseph Taylor recorded twelve songs for the Gramophone Company. Ten of these were issued on 31 July 1908 as "English Folk-Songs sung by Genuine Peasant Performers". The Gramophone Company reportedly gave Joseph Taylor a set of the records, as well as a gramophone on which to play them.

All ten songs plus two more - Rufford Park Poachers and Gipsy's Wedding - were included on Unto Brigg Fair (1972), together with songs recorded on wax cylinders in Brigg by Percy Grainger. These included two songs by Joseph Taylor, Landlord and Tenant and Bold Nevison. Two of the Gramophone Company songs appeared on Hidden English (1996) and five more on The Voice of the People series (1999).

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 26 Aug 19 - 03:36 PM

If I remember correctly, the Joseph Taylor recordings on unto Bring Fair were from the commercial recordings, all of which appeared later on voice of the people (with one exception which Malcolm Taylor - no relation! - and I included on A Century of Song CD). The other non-Taylor recordings were from cylinder recordings and the quality of the recordings is not as good.
Derek

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 26 Aug 19 - 11:53 AM

From: GUEST,bigJ Date: 27 Apr 05 - 03:36 PM

"At the (English) National Folk Festival on Saturday the 9th April, Brian Dawson gave a talk on Grainger's visit to Brigg with Lucy Broadwood a century ago. During their visit the two of them noted down eight songs from such singers as Joseph Taylor, Dean Robinson and William Hilton, among them Brigg Fair, Creeping Jane, T'oud Yowe Wi One Horn and Come All You Merry Ploughboys. Grainger went back to Brigg later that year."

In April 1905 Percy Grainger and Frank Kidson attended the sixth North Lincolnshire Music Festival. A folk-song section offered a prize for the best unpublished old Lincolnshire folk-song or plough-song. The judge, Frank Kidson, awarded the prize for the best song to Joseph Taylor of Saxby All Saints for Creeping Jane. Grainger returned to Brigg in August 1905 to collect more songs.

Although the liner notes to the LP Unto Brigg Fair also add Lucy E. Broadwood, her diary says that she wasn't there before 1906 - Reinhard Zierke. At the 1906 Festival, Joseph Taylor was again awarded first prize, but this time he had to share it with George Gouldthorpe of Goxhill. The judge, Miss Lucy Broadwood, felt justified in awarding eight prizes. Mr G. Gouldthorpe sang a ballad entitled Six Dukes. Brigg Fair and a beautiful tune to William Taylor obtained the next prize for Mr Joseph Taylor.

The 1907 Festival was cancelled following the death of the mother of Gervase Elwes. It restarted in 1908 but without Elwes family involvement and without a folk-song section.

From: GUEST,padgett (at home) Date: 29 Apr 05 - 11:48 AM

"The LP Unto Brigg Fair vinyl 1972 Leader 4050 mono (Bill Leader)
Sleeve notes say that Percy recorded in 1906 and 1908 in Lincolnshire and it is the 1908 recordings which formed the basis of the vinyl record."

Grainger knew Broadwood and they became close friends. He began to use the phonograph during nine days' collecting in Lincolnshire in July-August 1906, and bought his own phonograph in 1908. Grainger revisited Lincolnshire in May 1908 to make more phonograph recordings, and in June and July 1908 brought Joseph Taylor to the studio of the Gramophone Company to make commercial disc recordings of his songs. The songs on the LP Unto Brigg Fair come from the cylinders and discs from these 1908 sessions.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 Aug 19 - 10:51 AM

Hi Vic,
That set of Brigg 78s looks as though it ought to be digitised and commercially available. I'll give Rod a nod.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 25 Aug 19 - 10:05 PM

Stumbled into this thread, went to check if Aussie actor Richard Roxburgh was who I thought he was... and it was, and the entire movie, "Passion", is on YouTube (for now):

Passion on YouTube

"1999 biopic examining the life and career of the Australian-born musician best known as a concert pianist, arranger of folk tunes (e.g. Country Gardens, Brigg Fair) and his often bizarre musical inventions. He is lesser known as a self-flagellant with controversial sexual mores. His mother Rose is played by Barbara Hershey." 1 hr, 38 mins

~ Becky in Ashland(ish)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Aug 19 - 03:13 PM

Search link for Jane O'Brien's book:

AddALL dynamic link

Right now that gets one copy, 25 quid.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: Vic Smith
Date: 23 Aug 19 - 03:05 PM

A story from Dave Bland who worked both for the EFDSS and for Bill Leader when he had his recording studio in Cecil Sharp House:-

Bill had worked meticulously to improve the quality of the recordings by Joseph Taylor and the other Brigg singers before releasing them on the Unto Brigg Fair LP in 1972. The sound quality of the album still sounded much less than we expect from later recordings. Bill posted a copy to the University of Melbourne where the complete Percy Grainger archives were kept. They sent a letter of thanks but added that it was a pity that Bill hadn't contacted them before starting out on this project as they had a complete unplayed set of the Grainger/Brigg 78s.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: GUEST,Gealt
Date: 23 Aug 19 - 02:40 PM

She may be the Jane O'Brien who wrote:
The Magic of Tofu and Other Soya Products (Best of Vegetarian Cooking)
Harper Collins Australia 1983.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Aug 19 - 11:04 AM

She's Australian Reinhard
Well done with getting it for a better price
Jim

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: Reinhard
Date: 23 Aug 19 - 10:39 AM

I just ordered Jane O'Brien's book on amazon.de for 32€. It will be shipped from the USA so it may take some time to arrive.

And there is an Irish singer Jane O'Brien living in Hamburg but I presume she is somebody else than the Grainger book author.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Aug 19 - 09:41 AM

" £126.99, "
Wow - must be worth a few pints at our music local, Friels

Back in the halcyon days of Malcolm Taylor's wonderful Library Lectures at C#House, Malc invited John Bird to lecture on Grainger
We couldn't attend, but friends told us of the discomfiture of some regulars to see their shrine to Cecil 'invaded' by gay couples - I hadn't realised Grainger was a gay icon - neither had they apparently
We have a not too well recorded copy of the talk if anybody is interested - well worth the effort
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: Gordon Jackson
Date: 23 Aug 19 - 07:31 AM

It's available on Amazon for £126.99, so I'd say you got a bit of a bargain there, Jim!

There's also this:
https://sounds.bl.uk/World-and-traditional-music/Percy-Grainger-Collection

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Aug 19 - 03:21 AM

"PG was worthy of a blue plaque."
Totally in agreement with that, unfortunately he fell victim to a folkie hitman, as did others of his time
The views expressed then are unfortunately on the rise again, robbing us of the opportunity to make an overall assessment of the work of some of our early pioneers - who had the advantage of wotking with live performers from a living tradition.
I have a full set of the English Granger recordings, I believe they are among the most neglected examples of early English singing)   
A handy little work is Jane O'Brien's music monograph, 'Grainger's English Folk Song Collection' an annotated index of the songs he collected
I got outs in a second hand bookshop in Chiswick (for £1) but have never seen a reference to it since - well worth searching for
He also recorded in Denmark - I've often wondered what they sound like
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 Aug 19 - 05:24 PM

This is an interesting book about Grainger's ethnomusicology. Calling it "racist" is a caricature.

https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/A_Commonsense_View_of_All_Music.html

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: GUEST,Gealt
Date: 22 Aug 19 - 12:21 PM

PG was worthy of a blue plaque.

http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WMPBX8_Percy_Grainger_Kings_Road_London_UK

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 22 Aug 19 - 11:46 AM

BBC Radio 4
The Essay
Kathryn Tickell on Percy Grainger
Secret Admirers
April 2018

"Kathryn Tickell celebrates a composer whose music is particularly important to her: the Australian-American folksong fanatic Percy Grainger."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09z65c9

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: Garry Gillard
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 10:57 AM

The film was directed by Peter Duncan, is called Passion, and has Richard Roxburgh as PG.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: quokka
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 11:40 AM

I seem to remember the movie starred an Australian actor (as PG)called Richard Roxburgh, very talented actor
Cheers,
Quokka

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: GUEST,Suffolk Miracle
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 10:15 AM

An incredibly strong and fit man. One of his party tricks was to open the front and back doors of his house, then stand outside the front with a cricket ball, which he would throw clean over the roof, run through the house, out of the back door and catch the ball before it bounced.
When travelling with an orchestra by coach he frequently got out and ran to the place they were going to.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: semi-submersible
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 05:53 AM

My mother remembered her (English) father commenting on a pretty tune she had just learned at school (in British Columbia, Canada). When she told him it was "An English Country Garden, by Percy Grainger," her father hit the roof, and informed her emphatically that it had been around long before Percy Grainger. I wish I had a penny for every time this gifted arranger has been taken for composer!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: Rowan
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 01:46 AM

The Percy Grainger Museum is in Melbourne, on Royal Parade, next to the Melbourne Uni tram stop. It is on Melbourne Uni land (next to the Conservatorium) and looks (from the outside) like a St Kilda Beach dunny but the contents are fascinating.

Grainger invented terry-towel clothing (he was a bit of a health freak) and a precursor to the Moog synthesiser (in 1926 or so) which used mechanical contrivances to vary various electrical components so that sounds could be produced with continuous (rather than discrete) changes.

In addition to the concer mentioned by Bob there's a couple of duet concertinas and four or five pianos; one is tuned in sixths!

Well worth a visit. There was talk a couple of years ago about dismantling it but the terms of the bequest (by which it landed at Melbourne Uni) and action by various music heavies stymied that notion at the time.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: GUEST,Fullerton
Date: 01 May 05 - 06:03 AM

I have sung in choirs that performed some of Grainger' choral works.

I found his plain speaking musical instructions such as "get louder" etc, a delight and very practical.

Instead of the usual "arranged by" - he is credited on some editions as having "dished up" the tune.

I can almost hear the ozzy accent

Shame that the video is not available.

I'm gonna order the book at the library.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 11:39 PM

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 11:34 PM

HMMMMMMM!!!!!

http://www.blickfire.com??????

WHY the MC interface before MC accepts a thread......????????

My "Spider Senses" are tingling.....could MAX have sold-out Joe and Dick?

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: cobber
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 11:01 PM

Most people, particularly in Australia and New Zealand at the time held the current view of the racial superiority of the English race and Grainger would have been unusual if he didn't share what we now call racist views. I remember a few years ago putting two stories together (2+2+5?). I had read in several accounts the story of the swagman who comes in to the outback hotel and offers to play the piano in exchange for a beer. When given the chance he would play the most beautiful classical pieces on the broken down bar piano then drink his beer and disappear back to the bush. Damned if I can remember where these stories came from but I know I read them more than once. Then a few years ago, I read of how Grainger decided to walk between concerts in Adelaide and Sydney. For US readers that's like walking from New York to Texas and or UK catters, forget it, if you start in London, you're probably past Jerusalem. Apparently for these walks, he dressed as a swagman (US hobo) and could be out of circulation for months. Like they said, a strange man, but what music!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 03:08 PM

One of these posts 7:54 AM 27 April 2005, says Grainger was a racist and "went on at length about the importance of "blue-eyed music". Another post (27 Apr 2005 4:53 PM says he collected music from the Pacific Islanders and the Maori.

Isn't there a contradiction here?

Could somebody have respect for a black culture such that he wanted to collect its songs, and still be a racist?

Or did he collect them, while still considering them all inferior to the most pedestrian Western music?

Perhaps this topic is explored in one of the books about him.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: GUEST,padgett (at home)
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 06:28 PM

Hy Sooz hows Gainsborough going?

Brian has some wonderful stories about singing to his accordion in all the little Lincolnshire villages' Community Halls ~ in fact taking back the songs in his Lincolnshire collection to the people

He is a mine of information on traditional Lincolnshire song

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: Sooz
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 12:27 PM

I had a plan to get a lottery grant to record Brian Dawson's encyclopaedic knowledge for posterity. Unfortunately it was turned down. Haven't given up yet though!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: GUEST,padgett (at home)
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 11:48 AM

The LP Unto Brigg Fair vinyl 1972 Leader 4050 mono (Bill Leader)

Sleeve notes say that Percy recorded in 1906 and 1908 in Lincolnshire and it is the 1908 recordings which formed the basis of the vinyl record.

Joseph Taylor had among 21 tacks listed by the recorded singers (6):

Sprig of Thyme; Died for love; Brigg Fair; The White Hare; Lord Bateman; Rufford Park Poachers; Gypsy's Wedding Day; Worcester City; Creeping Jane; Murder of Maria Martin; Bold William Taylor; Bold Nevison
Many of these songs have now re-entered into the repertoire of English Traditional singers.

I for one am delighted that these songs have been given a now lease of life.

I would also mention that collecting continues in Lincolnshire through the likes of Brian Dawson

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 11:22 PM

Here is a link to information about the 1968 TV movie Song of Summer.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: GUEST,padgett (at home)
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 06:35 PM

As far as performance of Folk Song is concerned I think it is now more important to actually perform the song in the way which comes most naturally to the singer.

Unaccompanied song performance permits the singer to move from the straight jacket of musical phrasing (or vary notes within the framework)and use spoken word phrasing also for greater effect and dramatic emphasis.

Elongating or shortening words using stops, and other interjections would make the notation of a song somewhat difficult and necessitate the early collector in collecting not only the first verse/chorus but every verse.

Each verse would be an art form in itself communicating and conveying feelings.

Verses and performance would also change virtually evertime sung depending upon amount of beer drunk and feelings and state of mind of the performer when being collected!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 06:22 PM

As a side issue, there is a lovely portrayal of Grainger in Ken Russell's TV programme about Delius, IMHO the best TV programme I've ever seen. Max Adrian played DFelius, but I cant remember the name of the actor who played Grainger. The programme(I think) was called "Song of Summer".
Grainger was years ahead of his fellow collectors in saying that conventional musical notation and writing down the words told you only the most superficial things about the performance of folk music. He spent a long time trying to solve this problem...as we all should!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 05:46 PM

Roberts (aka Anglo) and Tony Barrand have a very nice CD called Heartoutbursts, consisting of songs collected by Percy Grainger. Good songs, good singing, good listening. Yes, CAMSCO carries it.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: GUEST,Geoff
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 05:41 PM

The book mentioned earlier (Written by John Bird) was published in England in 1976 by Faber and Faber the following is the ISBN Number
ISBN 0-571-11717-1.
It's a good read if you can find a copy.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 11:23 PM

G'day RangerSteve,

The Grainger Museum is actually in Melbourne ... where I understand Percy lived at some point. The Museum has some quite interesting instruments, which are in playing condition - and are sometimes let out to play!

There is a very high quality, extended-range, Wheatstone English concertina - made especially to order and, for which, Percy wrote a fiendishly complex tone-poem in six parallel parts. This had no known performance - until Janice Ramshaw (American-born wife of equally concertina-obsessed John Ramshaw) performed it at the Museum about 15 years back.

Just recently I heard a broadcast of violin work played by Jenny Morris - an up and coming young Australian - in which she played a Hardanger Fiddle (Hardangfel) - a Norwegian fiddle with 4 extra "sympathetic" strings from the Grainger collection. I don't know if the pieces Jenny played drew on work written by Percy for Hardanger Fiddle. (I spoke to Jenny at our National Folk Festival - and she thought this was the only Hardanger Fiddle in Australia ... but I know of at least two Australian contemporary makers that have made examples - maybe we can persuade one of them to give her a long-term loan of an instrument!)

Regards,

Bob

Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 11:22 PM

All of this, of course, is what makes Mudcat so very interesting.