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King Arthur needs your help
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: hesperis Date: 31 May 03 - 05:51 PM PeterT and Amos, I curtsey to your wit, kind sirs! Deep Purple as Arthurian - "Swoooooooooooord in the waaaaaaaaaaater! Lady of the Lake..." (A very, uh, cerebral rendition of the tune...) Anyway, I would definitely be interested in composing for this project once we have some further information on preferred instruments. Some of my work will be up at http://worlds.serpentgoddess.org |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Helen Date: 10 Sep 02 - 03:17 AM What leeneia is suggesting is that you use the pentatonic scale, which is based on 5 notes in the scale and not the more usual 8 notes. The nice thing about pentatonic scales is that every note harmonises with every other note in the scale which makes improvising and chord playing easy. But, there are huge numbers of tunes built around this scale. There have been a number of Mudcat threads about tunes written in this scale. You don't need a piano to do it. For example, in the Key of C major, the 5 pentatonic notes are: C, D, E, G, A. The notes in the key of Am pentatonic are: A,C,D,E,G. The notes are the same but the starting note (the tonic) is C in the C major scale and A in the A minor scale. (A minor being the relative minor scale to C.) You can transpose these major and minor scales to any other key. I just did a Google search and this is one of many sites which showed up. That site refers to the Blues Pentatonic scale as well. http://www.zartmo.com/guitarlibrary/am_pentscale42.html Another -related - idea is to try composing tunes in different modes. There have also been a few Mudcat discussions on modes/modal music. Try doing a Forum search from the main Mudcat Forum page for each of the following terms: pentatonic, modes, modal Helen |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Amos Date: 09 Sep 02 - 06:56 PM Each time they have a tourney I get so blown away 'Cuz I am so afraid Pendragon will win the day! ...Each night I ponder, and wonder on this: Why must I beeeee a youth in the lists? Shaking my bones? Breaking my lance? When all I really wanna do Is take you to the dance? Wohhohhwoh.....
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Julia Date: 09 Sep 02 - 04:14 PM How about those big honkey horn things the Celts used in battle- they look like dragon periscopes and can wake the dead. I think they are called something like "carnyx" (Maybe they'll awaken Arthur himself....?!) Definitely Harps whistles and drums Re: Contemporary Arthur stuff, check out Anne Lister, an English songwriter- great songs. I'm sure she has a website |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Julia Date: 09 Sep 02 - 04:12 PM How about those big honkey horn things the Celts used in battle- they look like dragon periscopes and can wake the dead. I think they are called something like "carnyx" Definitely Harps whistles and drums Re: Contemporary Arthur stuff, check out Anne Lister, an English songwriter- great songs. I'm sure she has a website |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: GUEST,lox Date: 09 Sep 02 - 02:58 PM Bloody internet! That was me taking my whole life to "submit message" - I love my server. Anyway - thanks again. |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: GUEST Date: 09 Sep 02 - 02:48 PM Thanx all - Leeneia - Unfortunately I do not own a piano and am therefore unable to play the black keys on it. If I had one I am sure it would have saved us all a lot of trouble. Alas, I must take the hard road and make what use I can of the accumulated knowledge the rest of you have made available to me. I had no idea that Peter T was so familiar with the subtleties of medieval broadcasting. I see the beginnings of a spoof swashbuckler in the making. I hope I get the chance to read it someday. Mention of deep purple had the unfortunate effect of reminding me of Rick Wakemans extravaganza "arthur on ice" (Involving too much acid, a synthesizer, and some iceskaters dresed up as horses ... very spinal tap - only real ...) Micca - you are a genius - I like the simplicity of your theory, and it helps to pinpoint the actual period in which Arthur is likely to have lived. So - when did the bronze age end in Britain? Are we talking about BC or AD? Sigurd - You have broadened the scope of this search by identifying the multitude of possible representations of arthur available to us. Walrus - thanx for the links Alanabit + Peg - I fear that you will get your way. It is probable that the hollywood interpretation will endure, as sickening a prospect as it might be. Uncle DaveO - Roman influence - superb ... Add a little of pied pipers advice and suddenly you have something to research GUEST - Good info about the lyre In the meantime, keep the sugestions coming, they are all useful and valuable. As for where and when the theme park will be opened - Sorry I haven't got the faintest idea. Cheers folks - keep it comin' (I haven't been to the mudcat for a while, but I used to "come-a-lot" (sound of retching from collapsed pipes) |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: GUEST Date: 09 Sep 02 - 02:12 PM An instrument occurs on an ancient mesopotamian stone carving which has been interpreted as a hammered dulcimer by some scholars. However that may be, the European hammered dulcimer seems to be an independent invention, developed from the psaltery. The gregorian psalm-tones seem to be stable as far back as we have notation for them. So projecting them back into the period of the British v. English wars is reasonable. A lyre was recovered from the English burial at Sutton Hoo. This is not too long after sub-Roman period in Britain. Placing a Saxon lyre in the hands of a barbarian character of the Arthurian age is also reasonable. Since lyres were known in the Mediterranean world also, it would be a plausible act of historical reenactment to place a Greek-style lyre in the hands of a British character. Instruments documented in the Roman world several centuries before the target period are discussed here. Documenting them for sub-Roman Britain may not be possible; but the other side of the same coin is that it is hard to deny the possibility.
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: GUEST,Taliesn Date: 09 Sep 02 - 10:46 AM One could worse than seeking the soundtrack to one of my all time most beloved pieces of British sreenplay & performance in film: the film expansion of the play "A Man for All Seasons". ( Amazingly not *yet* available on DVD, but with the publication of the series of "Elizabeth R" and "Six Wives of ol Hereri the 8th I yam, I yam", there's hope for this beauty ) The soundtrack is very much an integral *presence* ,however "Renaissance-tinged" , and evokes more of the spirit than the Wagner chosen in John Boorman's "Excalibur". I mean you're makin' a historic documentary. It's a theme park , right,right,?...meaning it's still showbiz. However y'all can acheive showbiz with style and grace as the soundtrack to "A Man for All Seasons" proves. Meanwhile nearby us in Maryland they are now holding one of the largest Renaissance Festivals in the U.S. all through the Autumn season and the music is played live & on site . I'm looking forward to the Scottish theme weekend which , last time I attended , atleast 3 pipers and 2 drummers playing folk drums dressed in rather tribal kilts and skins playing traditional pieces that , when the echo throughout the hollow , sounds absolutely haunting and beautiful. |
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Subject: Lyr Add: MERLIN'S SONG (from Graham & Eileen Pratt From: Hecate Date: 09 Sep 02 - 10:14 AM Authenticity issues aside, there's a very cool song that Graham and Eileen Pratt do: MERLIN'S SONG. It's on the album "Lark in the Clear Air."
Born to an age of reason
Magic is all too simple
Soldiers seek my fortune,
Soldiers all wrapped up in armour |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: GUEST,Arkie Date: 09 Sep 02 - 09:55 AM When did the hammered dulcimer reach the British Iles? It is supposed to be several thousand years old. |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Dave Bryant Date: 09 Sep 02 - 07:30 AM If you want a modern song referring to King Arthur and the legend that he still sleeps and will return one day, try Pete Coe's song "The Wizard of Alderly Edge". After all it would provide a transition from the present to the past. The only trouble is of course that Alderly Edge is in Cheshire ! |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 08 Sep 02 - 09:00 AM What good does it do to pose a seriuos, reasonable question if you don't listen to the answers? (Thanks for the tips on using italics, all.) Late last night I went to the piano and used the black keys to improvise a lovely Arthurian air. We know it was lovely because my husband said it was great. Coming next, a rousing march... |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Steve Latimer Date: 08 Sep 02 - 08:41 AM ANd this thread started from a serious, reasonable question. Peter T, I'm still giggling and I haven't even had my morning coffee. |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 07 Sep 02 - 07:24 PM Play anything but the so-called Renaissance Music being put out by Ritchie Blackmore, formerly of Deep Purple. In fact, since nobody knows what real Arthurian music would have sounded like, just play Deep Purple! With a few judicious lyric changes "Smoke on the Water" would work really well for an Arthurian theme park! Bruce (Who once managed to sleep through an entire Deep Purple concert) |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 07 Sep 02 - 04:38 PM For italics, precede the text with [i] (using the angle brackets over the comma and period instand of square brackets), and follow the italic text with [/i], the same substitution being made, to turn off the italics.
By the way, if you want BOLD PRINT, use the letter B in place of the letter I. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Art Thieme Date: 07 Sep 02 - 04:05 PM sorry----it won't print the symbols in the post without causing the effects... Check out the threads on HTML and how to encode for the various print options. Art |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Sorcha Date: 07 Sep 02 - 04:01 PM Leenia, it's the same as the line breaks except you use i inside the greater than/less than brackets. |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Art Thieme Date: 07 Sep 02 - 04:00 PM |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Art Thieme Date: 07 Sep 02 - 03:59 PM |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Art Thieme Date: 07 Sep 02 - 03:58 PM for italics do theis in front and this after |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 07 Sep 02 - 09:50 AM lox, the one who posed the question, seems to have gone away, perhaps to locate some Renaissance dance music. I still think my idea about tunes composed on the black notes of the piano was the best one. Peter & Amos, I enjoyed your posts. Art, how did you get that italicized print in your post? |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Pied Piper Date: 07 Sep 02 - 07:33 AM Rex quondam rexque futurus. |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Bo Vandenberg Date: 07 Sep 02 - 04:20 AM Another angle to remember is that by some legends Arthur is the once and FUTURE king. Perhaps when he comes back he'll develop a taste for DEVO. :) Seriously, the thing I most remember about welsh audio video presentations, (of which I saw 2 in my travels) was the sense that they were of the past and the future and the quiet romantic threat that Snowdonia would rise again. You can take the reasonable approach that more modern music is equally valid as it simply prepares for Arthur's return. |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Bo Vandenberg Date: 07 Sep 02 - 04:11 AM Guest, You probably should be clear with us (and your organizers) When this Arthur is supposed to be from. Gildas (an Early Text source) places Arthur 5th Cent. CE Welsh writings seem to indicate closer to 8th century. The Court of high chivaly with, Galahad etc... is entirely a 12 century invention. (Centering in France). Arguably the most famous book "La Mort Arthur" is from the late 15th century. Much of what the public recognises as fashion comes from PreRaphaelite paintings of the late 19th century. All of these have their own popular historical value. Perhaps more useful to you would be some sort of profile of who your audience is and just what sort of message you are trying to convey? If you are asked to represent them all I suggest you be broad in your music selection or seek to reflect the diversity with more than one show. Bo |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Nerd Date: 07 Sep 02 - 12:33 AM Well, I'll be...Art's an Arthurian Thieme... |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 06 Sep 02 - 10:33 PM You guys are too much! Go on! (she says as she tries to tune in CORT on her radio) |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Art Thieme Date: 06 Sep 02 - 10:04 PM I do suspect that any of the songs I put on any of my records would be exactly what you are searching for. All of those are most definitely Arthurian. Go for it !!!!! Arthur David Thieme |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Amos Date: 06 Sep 02 - 07:59 PM Thanks, PT -- brightened my day!! I'm afraid the whole thing is much too Elizabethan to qualify as Arthurian, but I think the problem is that most of the history of clan Fingal was only documented in Elizabethan or later periods. I'll see if I can come up with some more tonight!! Warm regards, A |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Peter T. Date: 06 Sep 02 - 07:07 PM Funny, Amos! (Any more verses? "How is't with thee" -- cracks me up) yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Rick Fielding Date: 06 Sep 02 - 06:58 PM Peter...I'm afraid you're wasted. And I mean that in the best possible way. Rick |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 06 Sep 02 - 06:55 PM Another instrument that MIGHT go back far enough: The rumbledrum! Pretty sure it's pre-Renaissance, at least. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Amos Date: 06 Sep 02 - 06:49 PM As I trotted my stout steed upon the knowe Espied Cymbeline. and cried, "How now!" "Fair of form and pale of brow, Wouds't thou not my plight bestow?" Cymbeline! How is't with thee? Oh, Cymbeline! How is't with thee? Thy favors give to everyone but me! (Noseflute in savage four-four modal scale fades....) |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: greg stephens Date: 06 Sep 02 - 06:41 PM Well, avoid anything "renaissance" or " Celtic".No Enya. personally my guess is have a listen to Afghan/Iranian/Turkish music( probably not Arab), a bit of Irish sean nos singing, the May Day Padstowe drummers and some Moroccan hardline music, and Balkan bagpipes(in no circumstances try modern Anglo/Scottish/Irish bagpipers). Add a touch of English rural souce singers and fiddlers and youre away. |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Peter T. Date: 06 Sep 02 - 06:40 PM Hey, squires and knaves, Bring Your Car, Your Cash, and Your Cutie, out to the Dragon Race Tonight at Glastonbury Speedway!!!!! First 100 in win a free visor for the guys, and one of those upside down ice cream cone hats for the damsels! And now a big request going out to the Lady in the Lake, clothed in white samite, mystic, wonderful, from Sir Bedivere, with this message: "Was that a sword in your hand, or were you just glad to see me?" And to help them on the way to plighting their troth, or waxing wroth, or giving each other their plight, here's the latest from Chuck Mistletoe and the Vikings: "Cymbeline, Why Can't You Be True?" |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Micca Date: 06 Sep 02 - 06:22 PM There are recordings of David Munrow etc with early renaissance music on them that may be still available, and may be suitable. On the question of When was Arthur, I have heard it suggested that Arthur should be dated to the end of the bronze age as the (so called) "magic" sword Excalibur was simply the arrival of an Iron sword and its strength compared to Bronze would have appeared like Magic, also "the Lady of the lake" is a reference to the "tempering" in the water, and that the True King who could" draw the sword from the stone" was the the person that new the secret of smelting iron!!!!!!! |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: The Walrus Date: 06 Sep 02 - 06:06 PM If you don't mind dealing with re-enactors (apparently there are some people who do) and you are based in the UK (or thereabouts) try contacting a group called "Britannia" (I don't know if they have a web presence, but they probably do), they speciallise in late Roman/Romano-Brittish so they may be able to help, failing that "Regia Angolorum" (www.regia.org), they are a little later (9th - 11th Century IIRC), but they may be able to help. Walrus |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Amos Date: 06 Sep 02 - 06:04 PM Cracking up here!! PT is a pure X! A |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Peter T. Date: 06 Sep 02 - 05:51 PM That was "V O'Clock World" from Bodacious Boadacia and the Woadettes, our spatterplatter for the week, and for you sports fans here are the latest updates from the Tourney: Angles IV, Saxons IX; Jutes VII, Scots XI; Danes VI, Monks 0 (Hey, don't write in, that's the new Arab slang!, means zippo, nada, null, sure have needed that given the way Lindisfarne has been playing recently!!! Zero, where have you been all our lives? And speaking of Zero, here's our "FAVOUR OF THE WEEK" going out to Modred from the 3rd chick from the left in the Queen's retinue -- it's the latest from Joseph and the Arimatheans, "My Boyfriend's Back from the First Crusade, And Is He Cross!!!" |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Hippie Chick Date: 06 Sep 02 - 05:31 PM Recorders would be good. And sure, wouldn't a bard of some sort have been singin' a praise song of the Great Deeds of King Arthur? |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Amos Date: 06 Sep 02 - 05:20 PM LOL, PT! The Golden Fingers ride again!! A |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Sorcha Date: 06 Sep 02 - 04:55 PM ssssppppeeeeewwww........That is too funny, Peter. I wish lox would come back and explain a little more about the park--where, when, etc. |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: MMario Date: 06 Sep 02 - 04:31 PM *gurk* |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Peter T. Date: 06 Sep 02 - 04:19 PM HI, and welcome to CORT, the voice of Arthur's Court, bringing you music of the highest calibre, not to say Excaliber!!!!! (Sound of medieval bagpipe collapsing). Spinning the Round Discs for all the guys and gauls around the Round Table, Druid to me baby, and we're sending this one out to Sir Galahad's secret dreamboat (get away from the mirror, honey, it's catching), straight up the Appian Way, and into your heart!!!! Yes, it's St. Augustine with that old country fave: "She May Have Been A Christian, But She Had A Lion Heart"!!!!! |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: alanabit Date: 06 Sep 02 - 03:54 PM Basically, I would say that the trick is to dress up everyone in the sort of kit which is used in Hollywood films about the Arthurian legends and then get your musicians to make the sort of racket which forms the soundtrack to those sort of films. Trying to replicate a historically accurate court of the fourth, fifth or even tenth century (claimed for Arthur by some) is always going to be a thankless task for uncertain reward. People like to believe it looked and sounded like the Hollywood version - so that's what I'd give them! |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: GUEST,maryrrf Date: 06 Sep 02 - 02:30 PM Just out of curiosity, what theme park is this? |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 06 Sep 02 - 02:06 PM Exactly so. Go for 12th or 13th century stuff; probably Southern French. It won't be authentic, but they will never know the difference; and it will be of the right period for most of the content of the Arthurian romances. And, of course, you get to use shawms, bagpipes and nackers... |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: MMario Date: 06 Sep 02 - 01:53 PM if it is a theme park - they probably want to do both - portray Authur as a celto-roman chieftain AND have him in full plate armor! |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: Nerd Date: 06 Sep 02 - 01:48 PM I suppose the difference is in what we mean by Arthur's Era. Movies like Excalibur, for example, are based on 13th century French romances and thus the entire technology and culture represented is much later than the late Roman/ 5th Century. If this theme park wants to represent Arthur wearing plate armor and carrying a broadsword, then I would say all of Peg's suggestions are good ones, and this is likely to be what the theme park wants. If, on the other hand, they want to represent Arthur as a Celtic chieftain, then something older would be better. |
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Subject: RE: King Arthur needs your help From: MMario Date: 06 Sep 02 - 01:33 PM well - couldn't aurthur have imported some to raise the "tone" of the locals? |
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