Accompanying another musician

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 09:14 PM

Robin, YES! This is true in songleading too! I always warn the band, when we go out to play in a new environment, or if our old stone church is especially crowded, that this will happen, and if they get lost, follow me! My thumpy autoharp comes through on the rhythm and keeps us honest.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 09:06 PM

I note "The Hell of Worship" thread, which I will read later.

I was trained also in the rather specialised skill of accompanying 'the congregation' hymn singing with the pipe organ. I am not talking about a choir, that is different; 'the congregation' contains a wide range of singing experience from trained singer to the 'tone deaf' :-) .

There is one simple secret, once you understand what is happening physically.

In a fairly large church with a pipe organ, the sound takes a noticeable time to travel from source to hearer.

The player first notes that the sound does not reach his ears immediately, like playing a piano or an electric/electronic organ - the time between striking the keys and the pipes starting to speak, and then travelling thru the air from the pipe ranks to the players ear, is quickly adapted to by the player.

In many buildings with the organ at one end, the player is in between the instrument pipes and the congregation. The sound takes longer to travel past the player to them. They then respond and sing along. The sound of their singing then travels back to the player.

The problem is if the player listens to the singers and tries to 'keep up' with them! This is a disaster! The tune will get slower and slower!

In this case, you have to 'ignore the singers' and keep your steady pace - not too slow to start, and not too fast. Further, if you change the pace, the singers get nervous, and are only too ready to respond slower! You have to be a 'living phonograph' and keep a reliable steady pace - the singers will rapidly trust you, and sing more confidently. They will enjoy the hymns more, and your best reward is to have people say that that can tell who is playing the hymns by the pace and reliability of the tunes.

Robin
Rules are a guidance for the Wise, and for blind obedience by Fools.
:-)

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 09:03 PM

It's not easy, but the key for an accompanist isn't just listening to him/herself, or listening to the soloist (voice or instrument) but to listen to the whole damn thing.

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: jim troy
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 08:28 PM

Eddie Lang guitar....accompanying Joe Venutti fiddle you might equate them with Django and whatsisname......

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 01:13 PM

Patience is a fine thing and, among adults, a two-way street. I know that as our band's leader, I appreciate beginners bringing a learning attitude to rehearsal. I try to manifest that attitude when it's me on the learning end, as it often is.

I can't speak for others, but I respond best when people can articulate what they need in "I" messages, not "you should" messages... when they show an indication that they are assimilating what has been learned in previous encounters..... that they are open to direction and learning, and to the spirit in which these are offered. I try to manifest that approach when it's me on the learning end, as it often is.

The alternative is described HERE.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: LilyFestre
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 11:59 AM

WY-

   I have no issue with the song that is sung being heard at all. That wasn't my point. For some of us, playing with singers is a new experience. Patience is always a good thing. New folks are going to have questions and need some gentle guiding. If there are songleaders or singers out there who want only those with experience under their belt, they should only play with those who have that experience.

    In my own personal experience, I have found that most people are pretty patient with me. It had been years since I held a band instrument and even longer for the fiddle (orchestra). I had a hard time following music and would frequently get lost. After some time has passed, that is no longer an issue. I am greatful to those who were patient with me in the very beginning. I did run into some who had some issues with questions I had and got angry with me. That's life. I certainly didn't mean to offend anyone and have apologized. I did not know what to do but I guess it was thought that I should have known or did know. I don't know. I have continued to play and have even started a brand new instrument. My coach is a great guy and I'm sure that when his ears stop bleeding, he'll still be my friend *G*

    For me, playing music is for fun, relaxation and enjoyment. It makes me happy. I don't do it for money or for performance...but rather for the peace it brings me. When it's not peaceful, it's no longer for me.

    Thanks for your post...lots of information there.

Michelle

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 10:42 AM

LF,

Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary, "Accompaniment." 1: an instrumental or vocal part designed to support or complement a melody.

Merriam-Webster Online Thesaurus, "Accompaniment." 1: something added to a principal thing usually to increase its impact or effectiveness . Synonyms augmentation, complement, enhancement, enrichment. Related Word accessory, addition, supplement; aid, assistance, help.

Britannica Concise, "Song." Short and usually simple piece of music for voice, with or without instrumental accompaniment.


It IS a joint effort, but not an EQUAL effort. There is an expectation that the parts will fit together, but they must fit around the soloist.

The expectation would be the same orchestrally, in a concerto, where one instrument is featured and the orchestra accompanies.

When it comes to songs, the reason the singer most needs to be heard is this. When a piece is sung, it's the SONG that needs to come through. It isn't about ego-- it's about the reality that the piece is a sung piece, and the reality that what isn't helpful is focusing on something other than the song, which is coming from the one singing it.

If the singer is interpreting and phrasing the song, which is the job of the singer, the instruments need to support that and not interfere with it. This is simply the reality of accompanying a sung piece. NO one's ego should override the SONG. The song is the whole point.

Also, in practical terms, if those accompanying are listening mostly to one another instead of the soloist or instead of watching the director, they're behind the beat, not supporting it. It's just not good musicianship to lean on one's section, so to speak, or you end up with people lagging behind the beat in a series of who's following whom one seat away. That level of musicianship is what happens in the early stages of rehearsal on new work, but it simply doesn't work when it's time to present the piece.

Then there is songLEADing, where the accompaniment needs to follow the songleader even more closely. The songleader is singing just a tad ahead of the beat, so the people can follow till they get how the piece goes, and the instruments need to be ahead of the beat a tad, too, or it's a mess. Once the people have the tune, and you can hear this in our servcie tapes when we present a piece to them for the first time, then everyone is singing along and playing along and it hits a groove of its own that transcends who is following whom.

But even then, it's the songleader's job to hear what is happening and to go for extra repeats of the chorus, or to shorten the piece if it isn't working, or to repeat taglines or other material at the end..... the people follow that cue, so why can't the players? With good musicianship and a cooperative spirit, they do.

That's what works.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 10:06 AM

The first time I realised what accompanying was about was when I saw Iris Bishop with Martyn Wyndham-Read earlier this year - her concertina was enhancing the singer & the song. After seeing her I watched other performers with different eyes.

Iris & John Dipper accompanied Martyn on this tour & it was a change for me to be really watching musicians as I'm not a muso & generally have no idea what they are doing, & am usually too busy singing along!

This has been a very interesting thread.

sandra

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: LilyFestre
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 06:47 AM

I think it's a joint effort and people have to be willing to listen to one another. I also think that it is a learned skill. I personally have always played in a band or orchestra and find it easier to listen to the other instruments around me. What makes this more difficult is when the singer thinks they are the whole band and have no understanding or tolerance for newbies. Working with folks who do show patience and work as a group..is much more enjoyable. I agree with Robin, the ego business has to be in check for everyone involved.

Michelle

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Jun 04 - 08:04 PM

When I was very young, I was taught how to be an accompanist, also how to be a member of an ensemble.

My father and I used to go to 'old folk homes' as they were called, him on violin and me on piano. I also played piano and pipe organ for Sunday School and Church for many years. Later on I also worked in amateur theatre, backstage and onstage. In high school, I was part of the 'jazz band combo'.

It may be natural for some, but it is a skill that can be taught, and a skill that can be learnt.

It involves controlling one's personal ego, working for the good of the greater, rather simply than being selfish. You have to firstly see and listen to what is going on around you. In this respect, martial arts training can also be a help.

Robin

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: C-flat
Date: 06 Jun 04 - 07:17 PM

The best learning curve I ever got on to was to sit in as rhythm guitar in a Django/gypsy-jazz band. Aside from having lots to think about with the unusual, and pacey, chord movements, I had to learn to listen and to get behind the melody lines and solos of the lead guitarist.
On a good night we could really swing, heads up and watching each other for cues and clues as to where we were going next.
My time spent playing in a purely supportive role taught me more about presenting music than all of my years of playing.
I've enjoyed reading this thread. I don't know how I missed it first time around!
C-flat.

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Jun 04 - 05:27 PM

A nearly-pet peeve: People who accompany a singer and don't listen to the singer. How else can they accompany if they don't listen?

~Susan

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: GUEST,mark dunlop
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 07:52 AM

If I'm accompanying a singer with a tin whistle, the main thing for me is to keep in the lower octave as much as possible - not playing to be heard over the singer. For this reason I tend to mix n match a bit between straight melody and simple harmony (if a tune goes too low for the whistle it's better to harmonise than to jump the octave). I also tend to mix straightforward tune following with long notes, but the thing that nobody seems to have mentioned yet is actually dropping out for verse or chorus, just for the effect. If I'm playing bodhran the same rules apply - keep it subdued and simple. If you're playing with friends, you have more license to mix it up, but with strangers I keep it very straight. Nobody's told me to shut up yet (but you never know...) m.d.

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: silverfish
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 07:39 AM

Hmmm... Interesting thread. I'm glad to see some recognition is now being made to the use (or sometimes abuse) of dynamics and volume in performance. Also the value (or otherwise) of timing. And planned repetition. Performers out there might benefit from finding out how your ears work with your brain, as well as the mechanics of sound systems, instruments, etc.
How ATRAC coding for minidiscs works is useful.
An observation: No matter how good the performance content or standard of an individual or group, without thoughtful variety of all musical (and visual) aspects THEY GET BORING after a while... (falls off soapbox in drunken stupor!).

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: Anglo
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 06:25 PM

Way back in this discussion, Murray MacLeod mentions Peerie Willie, a Shetlander who taught himself to play guitar listening to Eddie Lang recordings. That I found amazing for a start, since you can hardly hear the guitar on most of those big band recordings (well, the ones I've heard anyway). But to go from nowhere (figuratively speaking, of course - I would not consider Shetland "nowhere") to adapting swing style and chords to traditional fiddling boggles the mind; mine, anyway.

Becky, for a couple of references to Eddie Land, see here and here.

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 05:59 PM

So if I were to go out and get a recording, what would I look for, Eddie Lang Plays With Someone? ;-) Just give me a hint, Greg, if not why you like it (though I think analysing it at least a bit is a whole lot more useful to readers here than "get a recording"), then at least what the heck he plays and who with. Forgive me for my ignorance...

~ Becky, who was guilty of a similarly uninformative post February last year, and who regrets it now that I want info I can use myself!

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 04:57 PM

Becky/Desert Dancer: why I just wrote Eddie lang, and didnt add anything else was simple. I dont think anaalysing what he does is particularly rewarding, I just mean "get a recording of Eddie Lang accompanying someone, and have a listen".

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: GUEST,robin e
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 04:19 PM

A thought probably so obvious it hasn't needed stated...

   I think performance and volume context can (or should) be a contributing factor to accompaniment, as well. As a somewhat fledgeling guitarist playing w/o a sound system, I've found that playing feathery arpeggios in a bar, coffee-shop, protest, or dance situation is pointless, no matter how great it sounds in a quiet room. My musical partner and I often create more complex arrangements, and then have to suddenly abandon them in favor of energetic flatpicking for performances.
    Obviously, if we had pickups, a great sound system and quiet environs, complex gtr/mando bits could shine. But the situations we find ourselves in, we more often need to get the beat and the sound as loud (or at least as carrying) as possible... Recorded, it would sound unsubtle and clunky, but in a noisy sitch, it can be appropriate accompaniment.
    I wonder if a similar phenomenon plays into M Mcleod's critique of Dennis Cahill's guitar work... If it's more suited to a noisy dance, and, given a seated audience and amplification, it ends up sounding mis-matched?

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 03:36 PM

You'll have to say more than that for me, Greg, what about 'im?

~ Becky

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 06:39 PM

Well, as a humble accompanist of many great musicians over the years, I could write screeds. But all I need to say is
EDDIE LANG

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: GUEST,PoppaGator
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 04:59 PM

After discovering this thread just today and reading through the whole thing, I'd like to add a few comments of my own.

I have the impression that the discussion began by considering the role of an individual instrumentalist's role when asked to accompany a solo performer, and later evolved into a seminar on arranging parts for larger groups. I'd like to backtrack a bit first and toss in a few observations on joining in with another to make a duet.

Someone way-back-when asked "what about accompanyng yourself?" I thought this question was deserving of more response than it got. A rank beginner will accompany himself by simply repeating the same simple strumming, or the same fingerpicking pattern, for one verse after another. The more sophisticated approach, of course, is to introduce some kind of change (hopefully subtle) with each verse, so that the performance as a whole gains structure and builds up to something.

This approach is of course equally desirable whether we're talking about a solo singer playing his own instrument, or an accompanyist trying to enhance a partner's performance.

I'd like to emphasize that by endorsing a style of accompaniment that "builds" tension and interest from verse to verse, I am NOT suggesting speeding up the tempo -- quite the contrary. One should be able to introduce all kinds of changes to feeling and even to rhytmic patterns, even while keeping to the strictest metronomic beat.

While the consensus opinion that the accompanyist should carefully listen to the "lead" performer is well-taken, it should be taken with a grain of salt. In many cases, the "second" guitar (or whatever instrument) can make a valuable contribution to the whole by keeping the tempo and reining in a tendency that the singer may have of unconsciously pushing the rhythm ever faster.

This is certainly what is supposed to happen in jazz groups, blues bands, etc., where the "rhythm section" provides the foundation for the other players to build upon. In an ideal folkie-type duet, the "lead" performer may be more prominently heard by the audience while putting out the "top" part of the total sound, but it may be the "backup" artist who is actually providing the beat which the singer follows. (Of course, the accompanyist should still be listening attentively while holding that steady beat, assuming that he/she is capable of playing different licks with different feelings while mantaining the tempo.) In the ideal realization of what I'm talking about, *both* performers are "leading" the duo -- one rhythmically and the other expressively of, for want of a better word, emotionally.

I do realize that a certain class of the most lyrical tunes may benefit from a loose approach to rhythm, but my personal feeling is that the "freedom" to ignore time signatures is often abused, and is the single most common characteristic of bad, tasteless amatuerism. Self-indulgent self-styled blues singers are, to my mind, the worst. (I have to qualify this by saying that I hear much less of this today than 20-30 years ago, but then again, I'm not spending nearly as much time these days hanging out with my fellow amatuer musicians in pass-the-basket clubs.) I can sum up my reaction this way: if you can't count to four twelve times in a row without dropping a beat, I don't want to listen to your caterwauling!

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 03:22 PM

In hopes of further insights... refresh

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 02:49 PM

And from Claire's bandmate, Sharon, the fiddler (also a sometimes guest here):

I've been trying to digest this, & see what I have to offer...
Not being a singer or rhythm accompanist- I find I have to listen to the songs- then ponder how I can fit in. Sometimes I feel like I am trying not to interfere, and don't always know what I can add that will enhance the song.

As fiddle is mainly a melody instrument- I look for ways to not drown out the vocal melody- to support it but not play in unison. I know I cannot mirror the vocal part exactly - where the vocalist is going to emphasize a word or note, or take a breath is going to change or be different from how I hear the melody. I think there are two choices I lean to- to add some kind of filling or ornamentation behind & between the song verses,   or conversely- to play a more simplified version that drones the important notes and adds some body. Sometimes I do both. The nature of the song shapes the accompaniment- whether it needs a strong rhythmic accompaniment or sweet sound with less rhythm and drive. An area we haven't truly explored in RTH is developing sparse accompaniment in the verses or choruses, with substantially more complex development of instrumental breaks or short tags in between (I think a number of the successful Irish bands tend to do this).

Since we're focusing mostly on Irish traditional songs- there isn't a great emphasis on harmony. I try to choose alternate melodic notes that seem to be in the same scale as the song if I'm varying the melody, much as I would for a melodic variation in a jig or reel.

As a band, I think we need to be in agreement about the treatment for the song. We try to listen to each other- encourage each other to try this or that. Sometimes it works, and sometimes we go back to some version of the first idea. Some of it reflects our skill levels.

I think it's important to have both an identity an a variety. What I mean is- wouldn't it be great if someone could listen to the first 4 bars and say "That's Round the House" or "That's the Pusch Ridge Ramblers"!   because there is some intrinsic band identity or style imbedded into each tune or song.   At the same time- if every song has the same kind of intro or breaks then it's going to be boring for the band and the listeners. So it takes a certain amount of creativity and open minded-ness to approach each song and keep it fresh.

Hope that's helpful....
Sharon

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 02:47 PM

I've started a parallel conversation with my bandmates and friends in another local group; I'll try to move them over here. Meanwhile, pasting another from that conversation (with permission), from Claire (often a guest here), lone singer in a group doing Irish traditional material (Round the House - RTH).

~ Becky

--

Ok, I will add my 2 cents. It was very interesting to read Dan's comment and I completely agree with the concept that polish requires practice and that it may be gained at the sacrifice of versatility. Each of us, and our bands, make decisions that just are what they are on that score. It fits my personality, and I think RTH as a whole, to seek the polished outcome in the long run, even if polish is not immediately attainable. Practice is the key, but on the other hand, I am not sure that practice needs to always occur as a group. There is lots of preparation that each of us can do outside the band practice scene. Here is what I try to do in my role as singer.   

First of all, early on in our band I had a voice lesson with Dede Weiland and she taught me a very important lesson. The singer is in charge of the song. That means that the singer has a lot of responsibility too. They bring the song to the band, and do everything possible to help the band accompany the song. The singer is also in charge on stage.   This takes time and experience to develop, for RTH about 2-3 years of time to find the balance.

When I find a song that I want to do, I learn it on my own first. I write out the notes to the songs and give them to the band, I know the pace of the song and have it down cold, so that I can sing it to a steady beat, sometimes using a metronome to practice. I don't always meet all these goals the first time I bring a song to the band. Usually, the first time I jsut sing it for them and ask if they like it. Sometimes they want to play along right then, other times they don't.   If they hate the song, I skip it and keep it a cappella. I learn approximately 1/3 more songs than make it to the full band stage, and that is fine with me. The next time we get together, we try it again, after they have had time to become familiar with the song, maybe learned the melody based on the notes I give them, or sometimes a recording of me singing the song.

At some point, we will have a practice-fest with the song and work on it for at least a half an hour to an hour until is starts to jell. Often, the way I sing the song will change in response to the addition of instruments, and often I will find new struggles to come in exactly right or to phrase the song's ending correctly once everyone is playing along. Each band member comes up with their part on their own, I do not tell them what to do, just give them feedback and the basics of the song. We do this as a band and we are all in learning mode at this point. Still, if I think something in their playing doesn't work or works great it is my responsibility to tell them, and I do it. I find this part of the process to be exacting, exhilarating, and very creative for all of us.

Through all of this, I feel a huge amount of gratitude that my fine band mates would take the time and energy to do this song arranging stuff, and I try to let them know that. I know they are tune people at heart, although they have all remarked how challenging and rewarding it is to accompany songs. Maybe one of them can write in about that.   

Then we will take it on stage, but usually the accompaniment and singing doesn't fully solidify for several performances, sometimes several months. Only by repeatedly doing it, does the song fully bloom as an accompanied piece.

Why do all this? ... well for me, the accompaniment has to be solid, for the singer to sing the song as well as possible. I know that the band is there for me and although I give slight hand signals, the communication is largely non verbal. If I lose a verse, they are always able to just keep going, til I get my head together. If I know the rhythm is solid, the breaks set, the intro down, I can do all sorts of things vocally that help the meaning of the song reach the listener, which is a very hard thing to do well (doesn't happen all the time, regardless of practice), and to me, is the point of doing the song in the first place.

As far as counterpoint, harmony, etc, this may be very song specific. But I think it is good to have different musical texture on each songs. The role of the fiddle is difficult because it is so like the human voice that it generally needs to be played with drones and some flourishes not interfere. I am not sure how Sharon comes up with those parts, but I really appreciate it.   Also, some instrument needs to maintain a solid rhythm, because that is invaluable for the singer. On the other hand, if the rhythm is too prominent, it may interfere with the lyrical quality of the song.... these are all calls that we make as a group.

So, I know I sound very goal oriented about this, but, I felt there was no point in writing in if I didn't explain the process that we go through from my perspective. I am very interested in other people's methods, which I am sure are equally well suited to them.

Claire

Subject: Building band repertoire
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 02:19 PM

M. Ted, I think our band is operating in a different world than you're describing, and as Dan said, it's all about context.

As a band, our group is less than a year old, so we're still building a core repertoire. We're amateurs, and pretty much in it for fun, rather than fame and fortune. We make decisions by consensus (or some approximation thereof); we don't have a leader/director, and I don't see us choosing one. We perform less than once a month and practice as a whole group maybe once a month on average (maybe more before a performance, and vocalists may get together more frequently to work on intonation of our harmonies), because of busy schedules with work and family, and because one of our band members lives two hours away from the rest. We're still at a stage of having something that works well in practice fall apart due to stage jitters, even with a cheat sheet in front of us. (Though I have to say our last outing went quite smoothly.)

A perfectionist might say we're not ready to perform, but it's getting that stage experience that helps us learn to get over the jitters, in addition to the improvement that comes with accumulating practice time together. You have to start somewhere.

So the conservative approach that Dan describes might not be necessary for everyone, but taken in context, it seems like a good idea for our band: dedicate a certain amount of practice time to polishing that fairly unchanging core of the repertoire, and have fun playing around with other songs and tunes with the rest of the time, exploring what might be added to the core. I think he's also responding to the earliest experiences of the band (before my time), where a core was never developed, new songs or tunes were continuously added and then dropped. Polish was sacrificed entirely to versatility.

Yeah, having only one decision-maker in the group would sure simplify things, but it would make it an entirely different kind of band.

This all has us drifting into "building band repertoire," rather than song accompaniment & tune accompaniment...
~ Becky

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: M.Ted
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 01:46 PM

I don't see the need for the kind of repetition that Dan seems to advocate. Once a piece is polished enough to perform, and has been incorporated into the performance repertoire there is little to be gained from further rehearsal--If pieces are not working out in performance, and require continuous attention then it is wise to consider shelving it in favor of something more suited to the emsemble's range--

The abilities of the leader/director are the most important element in a non-professional group, because through choice of material,arrangement and proper management of rehearsal time, they determine how far you get, and how soon you get there--

Subject: Band dynamics & arranging music
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 11:31 AM

Yep, I'm still here, and hope some others are.

You're right Anahata, our band is heavy on the treble end, when I first joined up, someone suggested I should take up stand-up bass - HA! (We have enough trouble hauling around the piles of instruments we have - the autoharps are diatonic and require different instruments for different keys.) We do have a baritone concertina, though, and my treble has lovely sound on the low end, if I could only learn to play and sing simultaneously. (They're both English.) Maybe the fiddle player should take up viola.

I had also e-mailed my list to my band and another local band as food for thought and discussion. One of my bandmates offered this, thinking in particular of who we (PRR) are - folks with not much practice time who are mostly in it for the fun of it. He's given his permission for me to post it here.

--

Matching the right accompaniment with the right song is the key to producing a result that is satisfying to the player and the listener. However, the theoretical best choice is not always the correct choice. I caution all to be realistic in implementing any part of the resulting discussion.

Musical groups are social interactions, with all the complexities that come with them. The process a group uses in the assembly of a song or tune must reflect the reality of the group. The ability of the individuals on their instruments, the range of the vocalists, the interactions between the sounds of different types of instruments are obviously all important part creating a good performance. At the same time, the temperament of the musicians is just as important as the temperament of the instruments in setting out the right arrangements.

The key, as Becky points out, is "practice, practice, practice." But most musical groups are made up of non-professionals (as is the case with the music we all play), and practice time is limited. This forces choices on the group. The most notable are between diversity and polish. A regular practice session, if such is possible, can be devoted to a no-nonsense run though of the same 45 minute set every single time. New additions to the list are carefully considered and are only used as a replacement the most rehearsed and polished songs or tunes. The result is a slowly expanding, but well polished, song set, but one that does not allow much room for change and must, by necessity, harness innovation. The other choice is diversity. The group practices the latest additions, hits its current favorites or things that need work, and then exchanges ideas for new material. The result is a group that has a looser musical quality, but with a greater flexibility in what they can and do play . They end up with better feeling for what others are doing and with more tolerance of impromptu innovation.

The approach a group uses usually depends more on the true interests and opportunities of the members than on their stated objectives. But choosing the right approach is the key to ultimate success. Trying for the polished sound using the pick-up approach to practice is a recipe for failure. At the same time taking the polished approach means giving up on creating a long repertoire- at least for a long while. It requires a real commitment from the group, (a commitment of a sort I doubt PRR will ever achieve.)

Of course, the idea is to compromise and end up somewhere between too loose and too strict. This is where I want to make a point about attention to proper accompaniment. This is the place to take the polished practice approach. The group, and particularly the vocalists, need to commit to a very small number of songs with fixed arrangements and then stick with them for the long term. These songs should include opportunities for all members of the group (since they are the group "standards"), and the accompanists must commit to faithful adherence to the agreed upon arrangement and to work on getting it right. Other songs and tunes must be allowed to stay less structured (until some later point) and at the same time remain part of the repertoire. Theoretical discussions of the "right" accompaniment for a song can provide good and practical ideas for all the songs a group might do, but every attempt to do things RIGHT must be grounded on the interest, ability and nature of the group.   Eventually, you end up in a group with an even blend of versatility and polish. The alternative, it seems to me, is to end up having been in a group that aspired to versatility and polish.

Dan

--

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: treewind
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 03:48 AM

Becky , if you're still here...
I looked again at your earlier posts and had some afterthoughts.

You mentioned going too far with arrangements.
For our workshop we has a recording of John Spiers and Jon Boden's version of "Adieu sweet lovely Nancy" as an example of how not to do it. Actually we never got that far in the workshop, and I wouldn't have described it in those terms (especially as Squeezy and Scrapy were booked guests themselves at the festival, and will be at St Neots too), but it seemed that the song had been subjugated to a mere component of a musical arrangement. Very exciting, but why give a song about parting lovers a musical treatment more like a chase scene from a thriller movie?

The line up of your band -
Looks like it might be a bit treble heavy, with concertina, fiddle and autoharp, all high pitched instruments. Am I right in thinking you've only got the guitar at the bass end? How does it work out in practice?

The other thing this thread has reminded me of - I was going to turn the material we prepared for our song accompaniment workshop into a web site, complete with sound clips. I am suddenly aware that it still hasn't happened...

Anahata

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: breezy
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 05:22 PM

treewind, your cello accompaniment to Mary is stunning.
I look forwrd to being able to hear it again, so can you be at Bish-strt when George is on please, if you are free that is.
if not you know where to find me,how about andy i's night?
j breezy



hey how about on Sunday 30th at cecil Sharp house where I see you are performing with Martin W - Reid in the afternoon 2.00 - 5.oo at the 'Song-links' cd launch.


nearest tube Camden town, northern line.

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: treewind
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 04:31 PM

Works best at a different pitch.

In a recording session recently Mary wrote out the tune to a song for our friend Dave Holland (not the jazz bass player!) to add a fiddle part. She wrote it at exactly the pitch she sang it, he played it was written, and it didn't work. She has a fairly low voice - the range was from the F# below middle C to the A above - so I suggested Dave play the tune an octave higher - result - clarity and happiness! The final formula was to double the tune that way in the verse and play harmony in the chorus. You'll be able to hear the result When "Sharp Practice" comes out on the Wild Goose label in a month or two, we hope.

With the Anglo concertina I'm usually above the voice; with the cello I can be below it, but you can't double the tune that low all of the time. In the middle register of the cello I have to play a harmony - following the tune at the same pitch would make it very muddy.

So you're right about hiding the voice. The idea is to spread the instruments and voices across the acoustic spectrum.

But whatever you do, you have to try it out and listen. I went into a rehearsal the other day with elaborate ideas all written out and bits that I'd recorded and sent out on minidisc etc. and then when we got together and tried it, it didn't work and I had to quietly drop it, and together we produced something that we know will work because we kept listening to what we were doing, evaluating what was wrong and working out how to change it. Hence my comment about ears!

Anahata

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 03:22 PM

Anahata/Treewind - another simultaneous post. Wow, your workshop sounds great. I wish I could get to one someday. Thanks for the great info.

Yeah, drones definitely should be on the list of possibilities. I love them on some songs.

To expand on what you said - High and low accompaniment - if you're doubling the melody, or evening doing a harmony, do you want to be on the same pitch? or an octave below or above? If you're on the same pitch is it going to hide the voice? What will complement it best?

(In my group we've got banjos, autoharps, English concertinas (yes, opportunities for two or even three at a time for all of those), guitar, fiddle, and three voices (using two, most of the time). We do about 80% songs and 20% tunes, doing mostly American old-time country stuff, and some earlier and later stuff. Obviously, my personal interests go beyond that, too.)

~ Becky in Tucson (Arizona)

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 03:09 PM

Thanks, M. Ted, your post came while I was working on my response to MMario and Tiger :-)

I think there's utility to readers of this forum to see lists like that -- what are the options? what are the decisions that are to be made? It's not possible to give THE answer, because there isn't one. It's also useful to be pointed toward examples of what happens when different musicians have answered things for themselves.

Another cogitation:

I play banjo and have taken classes from Debby McClatchy, Dan Levenson, Jeff Davis, and Ken Perlman, as well as listening to and observing Sara Grey and John Roberts. An interesting assortment of folks, working on an interesting assortment of musical styles.

With a banjo, you can be very melodic, like Ken Perlman, and play hardly any brush strokes. Then you can play tunes as he does, but just recently I heard him accompanying the fiddler Alan Jabbour, and he took his style and what he knows about where the notes are and did some interesting things with harmonies and countermelodies and so on, as well as unison playing. On the other hand, there is sometimes something lacking in the energy of his playing. And he doesn't accompany singing much.

Some banjo players accompany by doubling the melody. Some use the melody for instrumental breaks, but do more work with chords when against the singing. Jeff Davis has a beautiful sparse old-time style that works with the old-time songs he sings, using partial chords and droning notes, odd rhythms. John Roberts is mostly accompanying songs that are not southern Appalachian, and he's got a great driving style with lots of off the downbeat brushes as well as interesting chords, and little twiddly melodic things between the lines or verses.

Debby McCatchy and, even more, Sara Grey, are masters of playing the banjo slowly. If you're accompanying a slow song, that's really useful, and surprisingly hard to do. (I know, I keep realizing that my banjo playing is making me sing much faster than I would without the banjo, on some songs.) Alternatively, banjo accompaniment to a slow song can basically speed up to double the time of the song, and create an entirely different effect.

Dan Levenson, in working with me on putting together one tune, said "play it the way you would sing it". That's not how everyone does it.Anyway, that's enuf from me for the moment.

~ Becky

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: treewind
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 02:53 PM

What a great thread - I missed it the first time round, having joined Mudcat less than a year ago.

"Desert Dancer", your post covers most of the topics (and more) that Mary Humphreys and I tried to cover when we ran a traditional song accompaniment workshop at the Sidmouth Festival last year. For most of the workshop we played recordings of traditional singers with accompanists and let various discussions spring from that.

It's amazing how simple many of them were. Let's go through some of your points:

Different techniques:
- unison with melody
- harmony line in parallel or counterpoint to melody
- chordal accompaniment

We also had examples of drones - we actually do a couple of songs accompanied by a bagpipe drone and one with the chanter playing a harmony as well.

(I should point out that we have lots of instruments but never use a guitar, so some of this may require some liberal interpretation for guitarists)

How to deal with different song rhythms:
- rhythmic
- free rhythm

Once you get away from sustained chords, drones and countermelodies there is a completely different accompaniment style (I tagged it the "rhythm method") where you just mark time to the beat of the tune. This works with some some songs. We played "Hind Horn", the opening track of Chris Coe's album, as an example of this.

Free rhythm is where the accompanist either cops out and plays drones and slow moving chords or has to become very familiar with the song as performed by the singer. We do both, with different songs.

How to build the accompaniment?
- start with the song, then add pieces?

We've always done it that way. Partly for the historical reason that Mary and I only met recently and she has hundreds of songs waiting to be organised into duo performances.

- varying instrumentation within or between songs
- the continuum from unaccompanied voice thru sparse to lush

There you have to go with what you've got. We're lucky having a banjo, cello (those two together are wonderful, by the way), concertinas and melodeons to choose from. Even then there are some songs that simply have to be performed unaccompanied.

Melodic bits aside from the song itself
- tags for breath and/or ornamentation between lines or verses
- instrumental introductions, breaks, closers

What to say about them? They are the nitty gritty of arrangements and the craft of it is finding ways to solve those problems which at least do not detract and at best score extra musical points.

When recording, it seems necessary to make more elaborate arrangements. The way it works is that when you are performing live, the audience has the extra interest of being able to watch you; in a recording you have to add some artificial interest, so you take the opportunity to add more instruments and changes of texture than you would (or evn could) live. (Don't overdo it, of course.)

Vocal teamwork:
- unison as a valid option
- harmony (2 voices, more voices)
- counterpoint

Outside our scope (except that much of it applies to instrumental accompaniment too) but we've seen Keith Kendrick and Lynne Heraud do a harmony singing workshop and they identified some basic components:
- holding a note while the melody moves (yes, we're back to drones again!)
- following the melody a third above or below
- real counterpoint where the harmony part moves in different directions.
Of course any good harmony singing is a mixture of those but if you're having trouble working something out it's worth having that mental checklist.

Other things I have to think about:
- the choice of instruments is influenced by what key Mary wants to sing in. Anglo concertinas and melodeons are limited key wise.
- with a cello, am I going to play mid range harmony or a bass line, or maybe a bit of both?

---
One of my music teachers said that you could divide musicians into two types : soloists and accompanists. I thought I was an accompanist; he thought I was a soloist. Whatever, the fact remains that these are two different skills and some of the earlier posts in this thread illustrate what happens when somebody who is good at one tries to do the other. I think a good musician should be able to do some of both, which means working on the weaker of the two skills. It has to do with personality as much as musical ability.

Finally, good accompaniment is about listening. The nicest compliment a musician ever paid me was "he's got big EARS"

Anahata

By the way, we're doing the trad song accomaniment workshop again at the St Neots Folk Festival - Bedfordshire, UK, May 10.

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 02:51 PM

Well, guys, one person's lush is another person's "wall of sound" is another person's outrageously overdone. Where you want to be on that whole spectrum is a decision you have to make.

What I want is more examples, experiences, recommendations, cogitations...

Thinking about that continuum, with some examples:

I like Martin Carthy, I like Norma Waterson, and I like most of the material that they do. For the material that they do, I like them each unaccompanied. I also like them with minimal instrumental accompaniment: Martin's guitar, or Dave Swarbrick's or Eliza's fiddle. One could examine those styles of accompaniment. I think it's really interesting the way Dave Swarbrick mostly played unison melody with Martin Carthy, but he was not necesarily in lock-step with Martin's voice. Sometimes the fiddle came in sooner, sometimes later. There were occasional notes in harmony, or double stops. It's something I can learn more from every time I listen.

In another direction on similar material, The Watersons added multiple voices in harmony. That worked, too, and in a different way.

The Waterson:Carthy recordings have additional instrumentation, and sometimes on top of vocal harmonies. That mostly works, too. But, you'll note that that group succeeds especially by not doing it all the same way. Some songs have more, some have less. Not everyone's singing all the time. Not everyone's playing all the time. It also varies within the performance of one song, as well as between them.

Continuing on the continuum ;-) , for me, Blue Murder (Waterson-Carthy-Coope-Boyes & Simpson) takes it one step too far, and they manage to do that with voices only. It's just a little too lush for the material. There's something just a tad too smooth, as well. But, that's my personal taste. Some folks think it's great. If you're arranging stuff for yourself and for your group, you've got to make those decisions about what you're trying to create.

What works for you? How do you get there?

~ Becky

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: M.Ted
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 02:49 PM

Desert Dancer,

Those things that you list are elements that are used in writing arrangements--how and where they are used is a matter of taste on the part of the arranger/arrangers, how well they work depends completely on the performance and ensemble skills of the musicians--

The first question that you have to work out is, where do your arrangements come from?

Here are some options:

1.Played from Written notation prepared by an arranger(not much used in folk music, at least nowadays)

2.Worked before hand out by one person, and taught to the group--

3. Copied note for note from other performers and worked out in practices(usually by listening to a recording)

4. Created during rehearsals by the group--

5. Worked out immediately before performance, without rehearsal--

7. By the direction of a leader, during the performance

7. Spontaneously arranged by the group during the actual performance--

All the other stuff falls into place after that--

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: Tiger
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 02:16 PM

MMario, you took the words right out of my mouth!

Reminded me of my old Art exams - if you could weave "subtle juxtaposition of light and shadow" in there somewhere, you were sure to pass.

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: MMario
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 01:21 PM

the continuum from unaccompanied voice thru sparse to lush

thru overblown to totaly outrageous and overdone

Subject: RE: song accompaniment
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 01:17 PM

I'm a singer, primarily, who in the past 9 months has gone from singing mostly for myself and mostly unaccompanied with occasional forays into banjo and concertina accompaniment (having abandoned guitar), to being a member of a 5-person band that performs for actual audiences.

Obviously, it's time for some serious thought about song accompaniment! The recent thread on unaccompanied song and the one on voice quality touch on this.

In one of those someone said, "good accompanists are born, not made." Though that may be true of the best of them, I'd hope that there's plenty that people can learn to improve their accompaniment!

This thread seems to be the most comprehensive one on accompaniment issues. It surprises me that there aren't other comparable threads. The subject often comes up, but usually in the context of discussions of unaccompanied singing.

Here's a listing of what I see are some song accompaniment topics / approaches / issues I'd like to see some more discussion on. I'm particularly interested in your own experiences and in recorded examples you can cite.

Different techniques:
- unison with melody
- harmony line in parallel or counterpoint to melody
- chordal accompaniment
Do some of these techniques fit some traditions better than others?
What are notable exceptions to your answer to the question above?

How to deal with different song rhythms:
- rhythmic
- free rhythm

How to build the accompaniment?
- start with the song, then add pieces?
- varying instrumentation within or between songs
- the continuum from unaccompanied voice thru sparse to lush

Melodic bits aside from the song itself
- tags for breath and/or ornamentation between lines or verses
- instrumental introductions, breaks, closers

Parallels in approaches to the non-vocal music
- unison
- harmony
- counterpoint or compatible counter-melody
- chordal

Vocal teamwork:
- unison as a valid option
- harmony (2 voices, more voices)
- counterpoint

How to learn it?
- listening to others' examples - like who?
- experimentation
- practice, practice, practice in working together

I'll contribute some examples, ideas, or specific questions I can think of in separate posts.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: reggie miles
Date: 07 Feb 02 - 01:12 AM

Many good points made here about a subject near and dear. I've tried to impart this same sense to folks that I have asked to join with me in performance. Alice, I especially agree with the notion that time together working on the material is a big key to being able to develope an understanding of the directions and boundaries of any given artist's performance. I also concur with Dave T. and others that knowing how to be supportive with the abilities you have to offer, however humble, to the point of being almost invisible, so that the focus is on the person leading, is a good philosphy to adopt.

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 06 Feb 02 - 11:25 PM

Marion: I suppose it depends on how the rhythm changes through the song. I have a tendency to speed up on some songs, and have been justly (I suppose) criticized for it. I don't normally accompany someone, so in answer to 53's question, if you're accompanying yourself, unless you have clinical multiple personalities, you should be able to keep up with yourself. But, I play guitar and set the rhythm in my gospel group and on some of the upbeat songs, I like to kick it off with some real energy. I play the opening intro at a pace where I want the song to be, and the lead singer sometimes comes in WAY slower. I have to slow down to him (rather than trying to force him to speed up to me, with everyone else not knowing what's going on.) The interesting thing is that when the lead singer who starts out slow gets into the song, he speeds up. By the end of the song, we're often taking it faster than I started it, as I keep pace with the lead singer. Or maybe I'm speeding it up, and he is keeping pace with me. Sometimes, it's hard to tell. But then, I am singing too, singing harmony, so it's different than just playing the guitar that sets the rhythm. If you're accompanying someone else and you do it often, you start to recognize each other's idiosyncracies and never try to force each other. The one thing you never want is to have two musicians at odds with each other when they're playing. Might's well pack up and go home.
Jerry

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 06 Feb 02 - 10:49 PM

Dave T, it is entirely possible that on record it sounds different to what I heard that night.

Cahill is obviously a skilled guitar player but for me his style would be more appropriate backing Stephane Grapelli (or whoever the living equivalent is ) than Martin Hayes.

Murray

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: 53
Date: 06 Feb 02 - 09:36 PM

Does backing yourself up count?

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 06 Feb 02 - 06:20 PM

Interesting question, Marion. I would follow what the lead player was doing (or try) figuring that I was supposed to be following them. If it were a rehearsal session, I'd ask if they were intentionally changing tempo. In a performance I think trying to stay on the rythym could sound jarring to the audience and possibly make the lead player look bad.

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: Marion
Date: 06 Feb 02 - 04:19 PM

Hypothetical question:

Suppose you're playing rhythm guitar to accompany another instrumentalist who is playing a lead. And suppose the lead player is not doing a good job on maintaining a steady tempo.

What's the accompanist's responsibility here? To keep changing tempo as needed to follow the leader - as you might with a singer who was deliberately changing tempo for expressive purposes? Or to stick to a solid rhythm in the hopes that it will help the lead player get back in the groove?

Marion

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: Dave T
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 10:51 PM

Murray, Thanks for the answer. I agree Cahill's style isn't the most imaginative and I don't think it would work in a lot of situations. I guess it just seems to me to work with Martin Hayes' fiddle, although on the studio recordings it's very subdued so maybe that's the difference. BTW I tend to use a combination of flatpicking and fingerpicking (flatpick + two fingers) to get some variation so I can't say I disagree with you on that.

Thanks again,

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 02:58 PM

Dave Swarbrick to Martin Carthy.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: MMario
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 01:46 PM

many years ago I read a fantasy novel in which there was a musical competition. The two contestents played the same tune a total of four times. Each played the tune solo; then they played it together - once with each of them as "lead".

The audience went bonkers for the "other" musician. The panel of judges however awarded the prize to "our hero". He protested, feeling the other musician had performed better. The judges did NOT reverse themselves - the rational being that when judged against their individual performances the "other" musician improved when he played with the hero. And he improved MORE when he played with the hero supporting him. "our hero" on the other hand, did not improve while playing in the duet, and in the judges opinion was the reason for the first players improvement. They therefore considered him to be the better musician.

Makes sense to me.

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: RichM
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 01:23 PM

Interesting discussion, this. Murray's comment about current scottish accompaniment, as typified by Hazel Wrigley, is a good one.
However, my own preference as guitar accompanist to Scot/Irish tunes that have a strong rythmn, is generally for a more percussive sound, a la flatpick.
For ballads, and pieces with a looser rythmn, i like to fingerpick/arpeggiate some of these--depending on what sounds best...ymmv, though. I tend to fingerpick mostly with a flatpick and two fingers now.
And much of my guitar accompaniment is strongly influenced by my other primary instrument, upright bass. Anyone else find that their guitar-ing is influenced by the other instruments you play?
My choice of accompaniment style will vary too, depending on the timbre and range of the instrument doing the lead.

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 10:59 AM

My friend Charlie Cairns -

Steve

Subject: RE: Accompanying another musician
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 10:16 AM

Well, Dave, first of all, Cahill doesn't fingerpick, and when you are playing a whole set of instrumentals, it really helps to introduce some variety into the accompaniment.

That said, I am aware that there are flatpicking guitarists who are able to provide imaginative fiddle accompaniment. Jody Stecher springs to mind (backing Alasdair Fraser).

What Cahill does is not really flatpicking however, he simply provides a monotonous choppy downstroke chordal accompaniment, no runs, no counterpoint, no imagination, no lyricism,, and quite frankly, it pisses me off.

And while I am ranting, I would add that while living in Scotland, I noticed this style of accompaniment being adopted by some younger players. I have a feeling that it originated in the Shetlands, with the legendary Peerie Willie, who imitated the rhythm stle of the jazz players of the twenties and thirties and adapted it to the traditional music of the Shetlands.

Well, it just doesn't work, IMHO, and the sooner these young players learn to fingerpick, the better off the music will be. Hazel Wrigley, are you listening?

Murray