Fundamentalists of ANY stripe. yuchh!

Subject: RE: Fundamentalists of ANY stripe. yuchh!
From: DougR
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 01:58 AM

I know that, Peg, my love, but if there is such a thing as :right, left and moderate, which certainly seems to be the acceptable nomenclature for political beliefs today, I would think it would be applicable for any issue, including abortion. Environment? Okay, where does the moderate come down on drilling for oil in the Alaskan wildlife preserve? Do they favor drilling only half the depth to find oil? I'm not being flippant. I seriously wonder, when folks deride extremes on either the right or left, of a critical subject, what they mean when they say that the best position for anyone to assume is the moderate one. What is the middle position on those issues?

DougR

Subject: RE: Fundamentalists of ANY stripe. yuchh!
From: Peg
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 01:32 AM

Abortion, or abortion rights, is not really something that people tend to have "moderate" views about.

You should know that, Doug.

Subject: RE: Fundamentalists of ANY stripe. yuchh!
From: DougR
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 12:17 AM

Tolerance is another word I've been troubled with, paddymac. What does that mean? Abortion: does that mean that one can or can't be tolerant about abortion? Is there a middle road? Which brings me back to the question I originally posed: what is a moderate? What is the moderate's position on abortion? My apologies for thread creep, but I'm really interested in hearing other views.

DougR

Subject: RE: Fundamentalists of ANY stripe. yuchh!
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Jun 01 - 11:58 PM

Paddymac, I agree, and I have voted for this man in the past and probably will again. What it comes down to is that we should carefully evaluate the candidates we vote for. Not all of them are open about what they really advocate.

Subject: RE: Fundamentalists of ANY stripe. yuchh!
From: paddymac
Date: 10 Jun 01 - 11:50 PM

Dicho - sounds as if the local catholic politician you described IS a catholic you could vote for and not be concerned about him forcing his views on you. The basic issue, IMHO, is tolerance - giving the other guy the right to his/her view, whether you agree with it or not. The "edge" to that argument is when that other person's view becomes harmful to you &/or others. Sad truth is that irrational tolerance can be fatal. Acquiescence to evil is evil. We are ever forced to make value juidgments. One can only hope, and seek, to do that in an informed way.

Subject: RE: Fundamentalists of ANY stripe. yuchh!
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Jun 01 - 09:33 PM

In this area, we have a Catholic bishop who has called for the excommunication of a politician representing this area because he(a Catholic) said that abortion was a matter of personal conviction, and a prominent local Catholic theologian who called for the condemnation of the same politician because he said the local gay community was an important part of his constituency. This politician, married with children, was the marshall for the local Gay Pride parade, bringing more wrath down on his head. This type of extremism leads me to wonder if I vote for a Catholic candidate, will he force views on me which I will find limit my practices and options, which are legal under current laws. I could point to many other fanatics, including Ian Paisley, etc. etc. Not all fundamentalists force their views on others. Would ignorant, dictatorial oafs be a better characterization of these social fossils?

Subject: RE: Fundamentalists of ANY stripe. yuchh!
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Jun 01 - 07:33 PM

Imagine a fundamentalist violin . All it plays would be fundamental tones similar to a $20 Casio keyboard. yuck

Imagine a ruling fundamentalist government. It may deem ancient ruins or statues sacreligious and destroy them , not because there is a fundamental teaching to do so but because they have the intimidating power to do so.

Fundamentally the foundation of fundamenatalism is based on a fundamental truth known to all parent child relationships - which is " Because I Said So" ;-)
It always comes down to some guy dictating to an individual or group that it is his way or the highway (or worse). Pointing to a document ,no matter how old , for legitimacy does not make it so.

Subject: RE: Fundamentalists of ANY stripe. yuchh!
From: Sorcha
Date: 10 Jun 01 - 07:07 PM

OK, then. I'll apologize for misinterpreting.

Subject: RE: Fundamentalists of ANY stripe. yuchh!
From: marty D
Date: 10 Jun 01 - 07:04 PM

Trolling? For heaven's sake no. Give me a break. I didn't start something specific about models of guns, (and their folksongs) or demonize one country as opposed to another, or call Republican or Democrat supporters nasty names. I pointed out how I (one person) was getting terribly frustrated at the people who push and push ONE solution (an extreme one) to very complex problems.

Twenty five years ago far more people DISCUSSED issues without drawing lines in the sand. Today there are so many issues that you can't even BRING UP (obviously extremism generally, is one) without having your motives questioned. If some people were less intent on pushing THEIR solution as the only one, then the actual issues might get discussed.

I've watched a television program several times (is that part of my problem these days?) where prominent people from several religions discuss some hot issues. It's fascinating, and almost makes you think that humans can exchange opinions on pretty hot topics in a rational way. Until I read that ALL the participants come from "peace movements" simply because they couldn't FIND a panel of 'Conservative' Christians, Jews, and Moslems, who were willing to let each other even get a sentence out. I just feel that if there is no compromise then there is no solution. I'm not talking about issues where one side has the clout to dismiss the other quickly with either public support or massive firepower, but ones that drag on and on because the opinion of most people is divided.

marty

Subject: RE: Fundamentalists of ANY stripe. yuchh!
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Jun 01 - 06:56 PM

"I have the courage of my convictions"

"YOU are a bit rigid and uncompromising"

"HE is a rabid, irrational, fundimentalist zealot"

(paraphrase of columnist Sidney J. Harris from 30 years ago)

Subject: RE: Fundamentalists of ANY stripe. yuchh!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jun 01 - 06:37 PM

Moderation can mean different things.

There's "moderation" which is about in how you express yourself, and how you communicate with people who see things differently. It involves trying to understand the other person's point of view, and trying to see if maybe there is some kind of bridge to be built.

That's always the right way to go about it.

And there's also the assumption that in any disagreement truth and justice is going to lie somewhere on an intermediate position.

And that is not true. A slaveowner has no property rights over a slave, for example. However, sticking with the first sort of moderation means that you avoid jumping to the assumption that, in any particular dispute, there is no intermediate position to explore. You're trying to give the other party a way out.

Subject: RE: Fundamentalists of ANY stripe. yuchh!
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 01 - 06:26 PM

And to laugh at.

Subject: RE: Fundamentalists of ANY stripe. yuchh!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 10 Jun 01 - 06:24 PM

you'd know eh MT... LOL!!

martyD... keep the anger... keep the frustration... Keep the confusion... I love 'em!

I love to see society starting to come apart at the edges!!

Subject: RE: Fundamentalists of ANY stripe. yuchh!
From: mousethief
Date: 10 Jun 01 - 05:44 PM

The great thing about fundamentalists is that it gives moderates somebody to feel superior to.

Alex

Subject: RE: Fundamentalists of ANY stripe. yuchh!
From: Justa Picker
Date: 10 Jun 01 - 05:37 PM

The thing about extremism or fundamentalism, is that it takes one form of it, to quash another. Everyone believes their cause is the RIGHT one.

Subject: RE: Fundamentalists of ANY stripe. yuchh!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Jun 01 - 05:14 PM

Doug,

You said, "I fail to see why you think Marty's post is so "out of line."

I did not say that. I did say what I cared to say.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Fundamentalists of ANY stripe. yuchh!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 10 Jun 01 - 05:02 PM

Oh (in answer to original posting rather than the asides), I'd have to agree. Fanatics always give their cause a bad name, look at radical rabid (fill-in-the-minority) versus (any normal --in the statistical sense of average-- person speaking out strongly in favor of their views. As in, I despise what you say, but I'll defend your right to say it? Isn't one of the problems with fundamentalism the plain refusal to countenance an opposing view? Let alone try to understand it...

Subject: RE: Fundamentalists of ANY stripe. yuchh!
From: Sorcha
Date: 10 Jun 01 - 04:51 PM

I just thought it sounded awfully close to trolling.

Subject: RE: Fundamentalists of ANY stripe. yuchh!
From: marty D
Date: 10 Jun 01 - 04:45 PM

Sorry WYS...and Sorcha, but if I start trying to see 'both sides' of extremism then it means I have sympathy for extremist positions, and maybe I'm just having a bad week, or reading too much news, but when an issue is split almost fifty-fifty SURELY the moderates are closer to the truth. In a few days the internet will be flooded with tapes for sale of McVeigh's execution, simply because some people INSISTED on their 'right' to film it.

Guess I should be hunting for a desert island,(or read less) B.G.

marty

Subject: RE: Fundamentalists of ANY stripe. yuchh!
From: DougR
Date: 10 Jun 01 - 04:40 PM

Sorry, Sorcha and Susan, but I fail to see why you think Marty's post is so "out of line." Seems to me to be a reasonable Thread to post for discussion.

DougR

Subject: RE: Fundamentalists of ANY stripe. yuchh!
From: DougR
Date: 10 Jun 01 - 04:37 PM

Thank you, Marty, I have seriously been wondering what the definition of a political "moderate" is. You feel that it is one who tries to "understand the other guys position." Sounds good to me, but then, if he/she, ever takes a position him/herself, should it be one totally opposite to the one taken by either the "guy" on the "left", or the guy on the "right," if he/she is to remain classified as a moderate?

To me, it's a puzzlement.

DougR

Subject: RE: Fundamentalists of ANY stripe. yuchh!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Jun 01 - 04:37 PM

Now if only I could avoid typos when I have my own rhetoric barely in check. *G*

Correction: rigid views.

~S~

Subject: RE: Fundamentalists of ANY stripe. yuchh!
From: Sorcha
Date: 10 Jun 01 - 04:31 PM

Thank you, Susan. I didn't quite know what to say. That does it nicely.

Subject: RE: Fundamentalists of ANY stripe. yuchh!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Jun 01 - 04:26 PM

Marty,

If you want a place to rip a rant off your chest, Mudcat will surely oblige; others, I am sure will join you.

But you know, it's no way to increase your understanding. Part of your post indicates a desire to understand, and if you really do want that, contact me in e-mail when you have the rant out of your system, because I can explain how these rigid happen. But this thread will only bring more division, IMO. You see, you have added to, and solicted more of, the rhetoric you deplore.

~Susan

[e-mail]

Subject: Fundamentalists of ANY stripe. yuchh!
From: marty D
Date: 10 Jun 01 - 04:19 PM

Sometimes it gets so tedious trying to see issues from all sides when there are so many narrow insular people around. How does a person reach adulthood and see things as black and white as it would appear from listening to talk radio or even reading some of the political threads here? I'm not talking just about the 'born agains' and their 'one way' blather, but those on both sides of Irish or Palestinian issues who'll happily watch a death-toll as long as it favors 'their' side. Even on this side of the ocean, having moderate views (trying to understand the other's guy's position) is seen as weakness. I'm sick of killers being 'freedom fighters' or 'terrorists', no matter what the issue. they're killers and intimidaters period. I didn't know I'd be venting today til I stupidly checked up on that 'Happy Birthday Israel' Thread. I guess I'm just tired of ALL fundamentalists.

marty